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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:09 AM
Original message
Does this seem wrong to anyone else?

Who took these torture photos?

Half of these pics I see look like they were posed for. Who the hell would take these pics? And than for them to make it all the way back to the states....it just seems odd.

What does everyone else think of this? It just struck me as odd that all of these pics seemed staged. What would be the benefit in taking these pics? Why would the person running this ward allow pics to be taken?

Any thoughts? This is really bothering me.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why do serial killers take pictures of their victims and carry them in
the trunk of their car?

They were staged..by the people taking them. I fail to see what you are getting at.

It's a trophy to them.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. The Nazis favored detailed records.
Very useful during the war crimes trials.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. he did not say Americans=Nazis
use some deductive reasoning already. AMERICANS ARE USING A TACTIC WELL KNOWN TO HAVE BEEN USED BY NAZIS AND SERIAL KILLERS.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. i also think the picture taking
had to do with part of the torture and humiliation and to rub it in their face. seems to be part of the ritual
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wash Post article said they were ordered up by the Miltary police in charg
The article on the washington post site, said the higher ups had ordered up the the pictures to use in interogations of others....
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. They were sent to a porn website
They were intentionally photographed for "kicks" and sent to a porn website. It seems that the press caught wind of them that way.

There is a sick culture at work within the Military. I hope this episode leads to it being "cleaned out".

--bkl
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. are you serious? they were sent to a porn site!?!?
is there a link for this...

I was in freakrepublic tonite and they were talking about a video of GI raping/having sex with a female prisoner...they discredited it cuz it was from some european porn site...but if they sent pics to porn sites then maybe that vid could be real...



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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Seems like it
A lot of the early reports made prominent mention of it.

There were some stills from the video, on one of the Arabic-language sites I saw, too ... but they have been pretty well identified as rape porn.

If you come across any more information on it, please let us know!

--bkl
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. That may be true, but there was the story
that they were put on CD and circulated around "Camp Victory" which sparked the investigation.

I don't know for sure how the media got them, but they were evidence for the earlier investigation.
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Kurt Remarque Donating Member (709 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
6. the fact that the pictures have bush
and company attempting extensive damage control proves their authenticity
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ugarte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is just the tip of the iceberg
Most soldiers in Iraq have digital cameras. They're everywhere. The pictures don't even have to make it back to the States. One click of a computer button in an Iraqi internet cafe and the pictures are at Mom & Dad's...or CBS.

As for motive...I think the pix were just souvenirs, like the human ears guys carried around in 'Nam.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. Souvenirs
>>As for motive...I think the pix were just souvenirs, like the human ears guys carried around in 'Nam.<<

The Colonel

What you have read is true. I was in his house. His wife carried a tray of coffee and sugar. His daughter filed her nails, his son went out for the night. There were daily papers, a pet dog, a pistol on the cushion beside him. The moon swung bare on its black chord over the house. On the television was a cop show. It was in English. Broken bottles were embedded in the walls around the house to scoop the kneecaps from a man's legs or cut his hands to lace. On the windows there were gratings like those in liquor stores. We had dinner, rack of lamb, good wine, a dinner bell was on the table for calling the maid. The maid brought green mangoes, salt, a type of bread. I was asked how I enjoyed the country. There was a brief commercial in Spanish. His wife took everything away. There was some talk then of how difficult it had become to govern. The parrot said hello on the terrace. The colonel told it to shut up, and pushed himself from the table. My friend said to me with his eyes: say nothing. The colonel returned with a sack used to bring groceries home. He spilled many human ears on the table. They were like dried peach halves. There is no other way to say this. He took one of them in his hands, shook it in our faces, dropped it into a water glass. It came alive there. I am tired of fooling around he said. As for the rights of anyone, tell your people they can go fuck themselves. He swept the ears to the floor with his arm and held the last of his wine in the air. Something for your poetry, no? he said. Some of the ears on the floor caught this scrap of his voice. Some of the ears on the floor were pressed to the ground.

---Carolyn Forche, El Salvador, May 1978, from The Country Between Us

Why would Abu Ghraib surprise anyone today when Ms. Forche's Colonel was trained by our best at Ft. Benning, Georgia, at the School of the Americas -- also known as the "School of the Assassins" and "School of the Dictators". We've long been best in the world at training others how to terrorize an indigent population into accepting repression and rule by USG-chosen clients. Abu Ghraib is unusual only in that we were using private contractors rather than right wing military death squads as our proxy force.

The big surprise, the question, is why has the P2OG-CIA-DIA-Military leaked these staged photos now? I think I know. PNAC requires chaos, not peace -- the job of Rumsfeld's P2OG is to provoke "terrorists" (now "insurgents") into attacking us, thereby rallying the American public around a deepening of the militarist solution and, thereby, creating the chance to advance further toward achievement of the PNAC vision of Global Imperium.

There are no accidents in politics. The photos were intentionally leaked. They're stirring the pot. Things have to get ugly, you know, so Bush can wrap himself in votes like so many bloody flags; so that we stay this course -- to hell!

We are being played, ladies and gentlemen. Once again they play we Americans like so many monkeys in a zoo.
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icymist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. That is the argument that families of the pictured G.I. are using.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:24 AM by icymist
That they were ordered to take these pictures in order to show new prisoners that 'this could happen to you' if they didn't cooperate.

From the Washington Post:
<snip>
The new pictures appear to show American soldiers abusing prisoners, many of whom wear ID bands, but The Post could not eliminate the possibility that some of them were staged.
<snip>
Lawyers representing two of the accused soldiers, and some soldiers' relatives, have said the pictures were ordered up by military intelligence officials who were trying to humiliate the detainees and coerce other prisoners into cooperating.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5623-200...

One theory I have heard is that this is payback from the CIA to Bush-co for outing their agent. I have yet to hear other theories.

edit for spelling
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. I've also seen the theory that it's the military
Both feeling dishonored by what they're being asked to do and feeling that the lives of their men are being wasted needlessly. That might explain better why there's such a torrent of leaks.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. You're thinking like a reasonable civilian.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:27 AM by Minstrel Boy
Stop it, if you want to understand the photos.

The photos aren't "staged." They're posed. Big difference. And photos are always taken in wartime of the sick shit people get away with, and are even authorized to perform, just because it's so, well, memorable. Oh man, I need a picture - the gang back home won't believe this!

Think of Kurtz going up the river. It doesn't bother him. He understands. Now.



And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us.
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
11. the same reason why people posed for pics at lynchings
--arrogance, pride and an indefeatable sense that what they're doing is right and righteous.
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
13. From what I understand, there are several pics which were staged.
They came from the website uniformdomination.com and were debunked many months ago. I was curious as to why those pics resurfaced just when the pictures and stories of real abuse came to light. I'm probably not the only one to wonder if the fakes were re-introduced as a way of casting doubt on all of the photos, both real and fake--sort of like setting up and knocking down a straw argument.
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readmylips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
14. US Military may have taken the photos and...
of course the Military report leaked to the right person at the New Yorker, may be that the Military wanted to get even with Rumbutt's hired contract soldiers. Afterall, our soldiers don't make any money and many left their families and great jobs to be thrown into a war of choice. Hired contract soldiers get paid up to 100K each. It must be humiliating to US real soldiers to find out just how rich hired soldiers are getting. The rambo hired soldiers don't take orders from the US military, and I'm sure those rambos take pride in pushing around regular US soldiers.

The bushes knew about the torture but wanted to keep it secret, thinking that they could keep everybody and anybody silent. But, some soldiers were real Christians and Americans, and listened to their conscience and humanity.
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smallprint Donating Member (778 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
15. the thing that seems wrong to me...
...is that the washington post and other mainstream media are really pushing these pictures. after a full year of unbelievable horror in iraq, with tens of thousands of iraqi civilians killed, whole cities bombed, entire extended families incinerated in their houses, widespread rape, death on the streets everywhere, etc etc, now, just now, the media has discovered that our troops are doing Bad Things over there. oh my!!! who knew!!!! what a shocker. and there has been plenty of grotesque stuff, including torture, shown in international media. so why now? don't tell me the corporate media suddenly became independent defenders of truth and justice... this whole thing smells like a setup. maybe they felt like they couldn't hide it very well anymore and just wanted to get it over with in a controlled, planned-out 'scandal' and be done with it.

in any case, this is really shocking people and providing something to talk about, which is definitely a good thing...
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Miss Authoritiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Points well taken.
n/t
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
16. Because they have ALL the power!
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:05 AM by MsMagnificent
First of all please don't uncritically fall into what surely
will come next, (just like the "Iraq rape photo's"
- very probably false, grudgingly agreed) and the attempt to
debunk the UK pics ("Not look like a *real* stream of
urine*"??!  Oh COME ON!  And as for the criticism that
the Iraqi would have turned his head to avoid the kick -- HE
WAS WEARING A FRIGGING ****SACK ON HIS HEAD FER CHRIST'S
SAKE!!****

They KNOW they won't get in trouble, there's nobody who cares
that they could possibly be reported to!  ALL their 'bosses'
are corrupt &/or BLIND.  
They can't be touched (so they think, at least right NOW)
& they know this full well!


Just LOOK at all the scandals that have occurred -- and NOT
ONE is causing any lasting or even minor heat!
  
The Plame outing (a Felony!) is nothing!  
The WMD "Definitely" in Iraq & an
"Imminent Threat" (which Rumsfeld tried to deny,
hilariously) is nothing! 
The August 6 PDB is nothing. "Historical document"!
 "NOT plan:  Actionable ITEMS"  Pardon my blasphemy,
but Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ!!!
The tax cuts for the wealthy are nothing!
Medicare cuts are nothing!
The ever, exponentially growing deficit is nothing!
The forgotten "No Child Left Behind" is nothing!
Cheney/Halliburton/Harken/Enron is nothing!
The legislation to cut benefits FOR OUR VETERANS WHILE THEY
PREACH "SUPPORT THE TROOPS" is NOTHING!!
 Hell the STOLEN ELECTION IN A "FREE" LAND OF
DEMOCRACY is nothing!!!
Not to mention THE LIES UPON LIES UPON LIES UPON LIES 

...ad infinitum, ad nauseum...
Oh, and please note there are MANY more examples....

--Bill Clinton was called the 'Teflon President'!  Well BOOsh
beats the living PANTS off'n him!  (Down there, Monica ;)

And STILL the majority of the American people would vote for
him!

OMG

It's no big surprise.
It's neither a huge surprise I'm going to be physically sick
over the insanity of it all... and I thought kneeling to
worship the Porcelain God would have been over with when I
swore off drinking!

*disgusted & ill*

If there WAS a fair (& truly balanced ;) God, a new Deep
Throat would emerge from that  [b]sty of evil and falsity:
the White House![/b]  

We can only pray... but it seems like God ain't listening
either.

The only thing I can hang onto with ANY hope at all is
something Archbishop Desmond Tutu said: 

[i]"This [b]IS[/b] a moral universe"[/i]

So someday I hope they get what they've justly earned; 
INCLUDING war crimes - even for the TOP level!  
But this is the US & as such probably politically
untouchable in *any* International Court.  ("Who is like
unto the beast?" --Revelations)  

[i]O God, O God -- where art Thou when we REALLY NEED
YOU?[/i]

[i][b](& Pretzels my sweet azz!!!!!!)[/i][/b]

**Just edited to get those stupid smiley's out*  :^D
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
17. other incidents in other places
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:07 AM by Lisa
During the scandal with the Canadian commandos in Somalia, one of the major pieces of evidence was someone's photo collection, showing the troops proudly posing with local children they had brutalized. (One of the kids died.)

http://www.newsworld.cbc.ca/flashback/1996/somalia2.htm...

And I also recall of a couple of other incidents where somebody had photographed some hazing incidents for novice soldiers (other units were involved so it wasn't just the now-disbanded Airborne) of some disgusting stuff -- black or female soldiers were given a particularly horrible time, and were ostracized if they went to the authorities.

It seems like such a stupid thing to do, getting photos that could later be used against you ... but it's ALL stupid. These people are not using their brains, when things like that are going on.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:41 AM
Response to Original message
21. More importantly , why would they allow the abuse to occur?
That's what really bothers me.....
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
22. I guess my main question was...


what would be the benefit in taking them.

It just seems idiotic to photograph torture when you know that it will damage the US war goals. And it seems odd that the army would let the pics leak at all. If I was involved I wouldn't exactly be thrilled at the idea of pictures, but maybe I am overestimating the intelligence of the people involved.
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libhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
24. Who the hell cares if they were staged-
Edited on Thu May-06-04 11:03 AM by tx.lib
If this scandal will finally take Bush and the damned Repukes out of power, give `em a damned Pulitzer prize. It has been suggested that maybe this was a ploy on the part of disgruntled military to stir up outrage with Bush and the war- hmmmmm- P.S- I for one, would rather believe that they were staged, than that our military could actually encourage and perpetrate these atrocities.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
25. Trophies
For millennia, warriors have wanted to keep a trophy of their deeds.

For some, that meant an ear or a finger of the enemy.

For others, a sword or gun.

For these sickos, a photograph that they could share with their descendants to prove how "brave and courageous" they were (against people in restraints) is the trophy.
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Claire Beth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
28. hubris!
they thought they could get away it...that noone would find out and if someone DID find out (which they did) it wouldn't be a BIG DEAL. Hubris will bring ya down EVERY time!!! and hubris is going to bring the entire bush* administration DOWN!!!!
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Cerval Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
29. For pity's sake! It's not just about the photographs!
It's about what is actually going on in these American Run prisons in Iraq.

Prisoners are being tortured! Obviously, the people who are taking the pictures were either commanded to document the "softening up" process or, there was at least tacit approval of the torture, the people causing the torture were totally unafraid of any repercussions.

You should be bothered by these pictures and the actions that they imply. Trust me, the Muslim world is judging all Americans by what they see in these images.
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