This is Serious stuff folks

[DianeG5385]

We can on no account conscience the abuse of citizens of a sovereign country we have invaded. Most of the folks in the ABU GHRAIB were picked up randomly. They were subjected to the sickest of abuse in the name of GWB! They were looking for the non-existent weapons! They were acting on a lie and abusing theses people to serve the interests of this lie. GWB has sanctioned the holding of "enemy combatants" in limbo without rights. What is going on in Guantanamo? When, if ever, will they be released? Does our government actually believe that these tactics are making America safer??? In my view, GWB has SOLE responsibility for the destruction of the American way of life AND has increased the danger to our country.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

1. Read the internal investigation report (link)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001

Very disturbing what it reveals.

[NMDemDist2]

2. kick n/t

[LibertyorDeath]

3. DianeG5385 thank you for those enlightened thoughts.

Cheers

[bpilgrim]

4. war CRIMES!

where the FUCK are OUR 'reps' on THIS, sheesh?

what will it take to get these folks PISSED!

they can do it with smiles and sunshine but they need to start calling a CRIME a CRIME and lies LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIES!



peace

[punpirate]

7. They're afraid of being accused...

... of not supporting the troops. It's a perverse psychology, but it's evident, nevertheless. I think that's why the current emphasis is on contractors. No one wants to admit that some of the soldiers that all have been applauding are responsible for this, and the generals whom everyone cheers were looking the other way.

What few in this country realize, as a WWII POW once told me, is that the veneer of civilization is very thin, and, under stress, is easily stripped away.

War messes up people, and not always in the ways one usually imagines.

I hope the fundies who pushed for this war as some kind of religious experience do a little soul-searching over this, but I doubt that they will.

[TreasonousBastard]

13. Watching the news lately?

How pissed do you want them to get?

Even Frist is on the warpath over this. Made a big speech that said, in essence, hang Rumsfeld. And hang a few other fuckups while you're at it. Just about everyone in Congress is getting really crabby about how this is being handled. Democrats have been completely marginalized, however, so there's not a hell of a lot they can do.

If the commander-in-thief steals the election again and IF we get control of the House again, the impeachment papers are sitting in the desks of every Democratic congresscritter. Watch Dellums jump up like he just sat on a tack.

I have this deja vu feeling about how Nixon went down. It took a while, but he lost the confidence of his own party, and that was the end of him.

[DianeG5385]

16. Dellums has retired

n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

18. Oh. Well, someone else will carry the ball.

[KharmaTrain]

5. Bravo! Where's The Hague?

One of the worst horrors of growing up with Viet Nam was learning that your country wasn't the wonderful people you thought...special, good people, but could commit murder and torture and exploit poor people. Iraq makes the treatment of the "South Vietnamese" look heavenly. Not since the Japanese were interred during WWII has our military taken so many people into custody.

Reports have come out over the past year (check riversbend) of the random raids and intimidation of people to get names...any names...in the search for WMD and Saddam and his sons. The pressure was on the military to come up with something/anything and they, in turn, put the screws to the Iraqis in hopes of finding what our feckless "leader" said was there...to justify why we invaded this country.

His shoddy performance today that was called far worse in the Arab world was an insult. This wasn't a man attempting to reason to other men about a "few bad apples"...it was another talking down session, equating Iraqis as children and somehow only we know what's best for them, if they'd only listen. In the process he's destroyed relations with the entire Arab world. After two wars that were supposed to reduce the terror threat, we're more vulnerable than ever.

The saddest thing is this war, the deaths of Americans and Iraqis was absolutely needless. For this, there needs to be a true investigation and soon!

[DianeG5385]

8. I am a product of watching the Vietnam War unfold on TV

It has not changed folks, as long as GWB is in charge there will be perpetual war. And in fact it is useless political perpetual war. If I think back in the years since Vietnam, only Republicans have thought it a good idea to go to war and it has usually been done solely for political purposes, the illusion that the GOP is "tough on defense". Sounds good when you're running for office. Think about that...some of our elected officials create war and spend our treasure in the illusion that they are tough on defense. I believe we are ALL tough on defense, it's just that alot of our ludicrous wars are not about "We the People"; that is now a bromide, a fiction to passify the masses. The current bunch in charge are not about "We the People". Until 911, we have not been threatened territorially since the War of 1812.

Aside from 911, a great failure of intelligence, we have not fought a war that acually impacted our security. I supported Afghanistan, but clearly, this was not big on the Bush hit parade, he was obsessed w/ Iraq. Remember Panama?, take out Noriega so he can't spill the beans on Iran/Contra (drug trafficking) where is he today, by the way, and why is he still in prison?; Grenada, after the Lebanon bombing, designed to show Reagan had cojones...we saved a bunch of medical strudents and killed a bunch of disabled people..Gulf War l, just a big misunderstanding between April Glaspie and Saddam. I'm sure you historians can fill in the blanks but hopefully my point has been made, we have a history of fighting bogus wars so we can go show off how tough we are and then enrich the folks who are building us all those cool weapons that don't happen to function correctly in Iraq.

[DianeG5385]

6. I am sick to my stomach seeing the naked men. You have NOOOOOOOO idea

how modest Arab men are. We might as well have executed them. It's equivalent in our culture to (and I hate to say this), a raped woman who is now considered sullied. You need to understand the meaning of why shoes are thrown as an insult. In islamic culture, the showing of the bottom of the foot is considered an insult. Shoes carry the bottom of the foot, the part that trods the filth.

It's not just that we tortured the prisoners, it's that we did it in such a way most insulting to their culture. They value modesty, we don't, and this was exploited by punks. We showed them how much we hold their beliefs in disregard. In that way this IS a religious war, only we are the dirty scum. This had to have been sanctioned at the highest levels. People are lying.

We have done a bad thing that will haunt us for years. I just hope that we don't use OUR atrocity to continue to abuse and kill innocents. I have long ago lost faith that GWB and his ilk are capable of rational thought, they must be defeated in November. They are a Cancer of the united States!!

[Tinoire]

9. Good posts Dianne. Thrilled to be working with people like you. n/t

[DianeG5385]

10. Thanks! You're a peach!

I hope to high heaven we can get these guys out of office...They are destroying us and I don't think we can sit idly by to see what happens..

[Tinoire]

14. Well... I'm no fan of Wes Clark but I am RIGHT by your side

One thing that has literally SHOCKED me is that about 50% of Wes Clark supporters are the most progressive ones out there. Knock me over with a feather! I love most of you guys.

So what do we do? Those of us who really want change? i beat my head against the wall anguishing on how we stop the madness Bush has unleashed.

Tonight, I had a little body work done on my car. The job was great and done in a parking lot (you know those Latinos cruising around with their "Instant body work" signs <they chased me down in the parking lot asking, 'Lady, want that dent fixed? I said yes, they did an excellent job and it cost me 1/10th the price of a body shop> ; but you know what, these 20 year olds had no idea their ass was off to Iraq. By the time we were done, they were EAGER to go vote for that ass-hole Kerry. <Btw, I really hate Kerry just in case you didn't know but damn, what's the other choice?> What killed me though is that they had NO idea! They hated the torture photos but thought it was ok because "those people tried to kill us", 9-11 and all that crap.

Sheesh.

Thank God they were your average, kind, decent American. We cleared a LOT of things up while they were sanding & smoothing. But damn, we have got to start educating people! They have no idea. As a matter of fact, the crew I was dealing with was pretty much indifferent until I told them Bush was going to draft their ass and their women's too.

[Tinoire]

19. I need to edit my last statement

because it takes into account all the trolls who were on this board a few months ago pretending to be Clark supporters. Strike the part about 50%. Most of you guys rock.

[hedgetrimmer]

11. Yeah this is an atrocity and it was done in OUR names...

we can point the finger at Georgie and that's fine but these are our people laying out this sort of action... our brothers and sisters... our children, our parents... our uncles and aunts... our neighbours... and it has been done in our name, these acts are a representation of who we are even if "we" do not identify with the actions... Is this who we want to be?

as Gandhi said, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

[DianeG5385]

12. I don't want to feel like the Germans felt after WW2

We can't let atrocities be done in our name. The first start is losing the Guantanamo prison, after that, we release the ABU GHRAIB prisoners ans since we seem to like blowing things up, send a few heat seeking missile to raze the place.

[opihimoimoi]

15. Ed Zachery has said the same thing.

Bush has brought Shame upon us.

[shanti]

17. AND THAT'S ONE BIG REASON

that he must GO!!!! but i can thank * for one thing - making so many people that were apolitical, AWARE!

[oldlady]

20. I wonder

what the local punishment for such crimes would be? There's nothing tongue in cheek about my wondering-- it does make a difference in the perception of those wronged and their community. I once participated in a negotiation between a Hmong immigrant whose child had been slapped by a native-born American. The tribal leader explained that a gift of atonement would be required and the native-born American agreed-- although the gift required in Hmong culture was a live cow or pig (value: $600-$2000), but the American was thinking chocolate cake (value: $5)....