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liberal72 Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:40 AM
Original message
Anyone been listening to Limbaugh.
He has been saying the torturing in Iraq was nohting more than hazing at a frat house, that the soldiers were just letting of steam and that you could see this kind of stuff at a Madonna or Britney Spears concert or a NEA art show. Is he still on the pill or what.

Here is some info from Media Matters http://mediamatters.org/items/200405050003 .

Also check out www.uggabugga.blogspot.com
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. Look at this garbage
"You know, if you look at -- if you, really, if you look at these pictures, I mean, I don't know if it's just me, but it looks just like anything you'd see Madonna, or Britney Spears do on stage. Maybe I'm -- yeah. And get an NEA grant for something like this. I mean, this is something that you can see on stage at Lincoln Center from an NEA grant, maybe on Sex in the City -- the movie. I mean, I don't -- it's just me."

Uh, no one DIES in a Madonna show. No one has their jaw BROKEN. No one is FORCED into humiliating sexual positions. No one is forced to MASTURBATE into someone else's mouth.

Rush is, and always will be, nothing but a fat drug-infested pig.
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DANDI Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. The pictures.
The prisoners in the picture died?
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. some did
there's pictures of dead iraqis from that prison and allegations of death coming from the DOD...
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DANDI Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Yes I've read about the deaths.
Definitely warrants investigation. The pictures require investigation too but it may be two separate issues. If the soldiers who took the pictures and the others involved were just doing it for some kind of sick sport, well, they need to be punished and apologies issued. If it was part of a softening-process to extract information, and no actual physical torture occurred. That's a somewhat different situation.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. What?...Get a grip!...What information?......
Some of these people are innocent civilians. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. They shouldn't even be locked up, much less "softened up". Are you condoning this behavior?


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DANDI Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Not against innocent civilians, no
But if they were actual combatants who might have information that would save American soldiers' lives, I think a little humiliation would be worth it, don't you?
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. well we already know for a fact that one of the prisoners in those
pictures, the one with a bag over his head with that wierd chick dangling a cig pointing at his genitals, we know he was innocent. he's already out of the prison, been released...the NY Times had an interview with him yesterday.
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DANDI Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. If he was innocent
then by all means that was f*cked up and he should be apologized to and compensated. Did the military think he was innocent when they apprehended him? I don't know. I don't know what their motivation for confining him was in the first place. With the overcrowding in the prison it's difficult to believe they would have stuck him in there for no good reason when they have so many detainees who aren't innocent that they need the space for. What would their other motives be? I don't know that either. But that is beside the point I'm trying to make. If the interrogators, in good faith, believed that an actual enemy combatant had information on troop movements, weapons caches, future attack plans, etc. then the weakening of the enemy's will to resist questioning through embarrassment, humiliation, whatever, SHORT OF ACTUAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE is worth it if it could be reasonably believed that that information would preserve the life of troops in the field.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. The particular picture involving that Iraqi were in punishment for
a fight that broke out in the prison...he had no information they were trying to get...

that whole place was poorly run and packed with innocents, it still is I bet...it was mass chaos...
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DANDI Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Thank you for telling me that
I didn't have that particular piece of information. In that situation I agree with you and reiterate: It was f*cked up. There seems to be many though, who disagree with this method under any and all circumstances. It is they who I take issue with.
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. It is?
Ok point taken! I suppose then you would find the same treatment of American prisoners acceptable if such treatment by an enemy might convince those prisoners to give up information which would save that enemys soldiers lives.

Good to know you approve. Somehow I have the feeling you'd be the first to start whining and crying if pictures of a similar nature surfaced featuring American prisoners.

RC
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progressivejazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. Not having much luck today, are you?
It doesn't look like you've convinced anybody that torture can be a good thing. Even though it was only a "kindler, gentler" kind of torture, as the only Bush elected president might say.

If nothing else, using what you call "this method", involves dishonoring the United States. And I take issue with your support of that.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. No I don't think that is the situation at all....
As a matter of fact, I think we are the invaders. If we really want to save soldiers lives, we should get them the fuck out of Iraq, and stop the colonial adventures.

Degrading, torturing prisoners, whatever you want to call it, will further endanger any soldiers who are unlucky or stupid enough to be captured.

You know, there are reasons why these things are supposed to be covered by the Geneva Convention. Civilized folks got together and established rules of order. Bush has decided he doesn't want to abide by any international laws. Americans won't be subjected to war crimes courts. I wonder why he went out of his way to arrange that.


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DANDI Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yes
But we ARE there, so we have to protect the soldiers lives. Politics aside, I still feel it's worth inflicting a little humiliation if it will save lives. And if that's the worst they ever did to American POWs I would fall on my knees and give thanks, and I think the POW's would too. Besides, I doubt the people we're dealing with now would stop to consider our good will toward their prisoners when they decide how to treat theirs. I'd hate to be the one who stood in front of a dead soldier's family, friends and fellow soldiers and say "Sorry Mr. Smith, the bad news is your son died from the wounds he received in combat. The good news is, we preserved the ego of the enemy prisoner who's information could have saved him."
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Well, we'll just have to disagree, I've got to get off his computer..
I think you are talking out yer butt anyway, since I now remember where I saw your name before. It was a couple weeks ago when you insulted my friends, Daryl Cherney and Judy Beri. You called them terrorists and made all kinds of accusations you had no evidence of, and then I guess you passed out in a drunken stupor with your crack pipe in your hand because you never responded to my inquiries for evidence of your ridiculous accusations. Have a pleasant evening.
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DANDI Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. How enlightened of you
to make ad hominem arguments then bug out. You are truly an asset to the Party.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Obviously, I don't belong to your party..........
Edited on Thu May-06-04 11:22 AM by webster_green
I happen to be a Democrat, like most on this board.


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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. That's what you did on the...
Edited on Thu May-06-04 12:42 PM by ezmojason
Earth First bombing settlement thread.

You spewed a bunch of discredited crap that a jury found
completely without merit then slandered the victims of a right-wing
terrorist attack and government cover-up then split.

Pot meet the kettle.

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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. so go over there and "humiliate" prisoners to "save lives"
--what a crock! WE INVADED A SOVEREIGN (and defenseless) NATION that had done nothing to us.

WE (the United States as well as the "Coalition of the Killing") will reap the whirlwind for this.

"Sorry Mr. Smith, the bad news is that your son died from the wounds he received in combat from an illegal, ill-planned, immoral, heinous and atrocious invasion. There IS NO GOOD NEWS."

"information could have saved him" MY BUTT.
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
39. The worst THEY ever did to American POW's
Please do tell, what exactly are "they" and have "they" done to American POW's? Who is "they". Who are these POW's?

RC
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mac56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
44. "I think a little humiliation would be worth it, don't you?"
No.

Enjoy your stay here. Hope you learn something.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. Dude the war is based on lies and illegally launched...
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:15 AM by ezmojason
there is no justification for our actions.

There is no Iraqi that deserves to be killed or "softened up"
by an American because it is their country not ours.

We are wrong to be there and becoming a world wide pariah
due to the goose stepping yes men yahoos that carry out Bush's
immoral and illegal war.
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DANDI Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Right or wrong
As I said we ARE there, and I'm not willing to sacrifice American soldiers lives as an act of contrition. If we're going to get them out then do so, but protect them while they are in harm's way.
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Then you should demand they come home now...
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:34 AM by ezmojason
because they are going to keep dieing in increasing
numbers especially now that the truth of the morally
abject state of the occupation is out for the whole
world to see.

Each act of cruelty and dehumanization is one more bullet
and on more bomb that will kill our fellow citizens solders
or civilians.

If this keeps up no American will be safe any where in the
world. Do you think that people don't recognize the justifications
for what they are the illusions that white wash hatred and greed.

We need to leave Iraq now.

Justify all you want but todays victim is tomorrows avenger.

Protect the troops with miles of air plane rides home where
they can begin to recover from this debauch.
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. Protect them by torturing Iraqi's?
Wow that's brilliant. I'm sure Iraqi's are feeling pretty chummy toward their American liberators right now. Probably about as chummy as the average American would, if the shoe was on the other foot. Your arguments are idiotic.

RC
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
37. No it isn't...not according to the Geneva Convention
it's a war crime...punishable by imprisonment.

RC
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. Okay
Then let's shove a broom handle up Rush'd a**, and call it a frat hazing.

I'm sorry, I forgot Rush likes broom handles up his a**.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't listen to Pigboy, but...
I heard an asshole from Accuracy in Media saying the same thing.

Someone from Harpers was on the same show and said it was the most idiotic thing he ever heard.

This seems to be becoming a wingnut talking point, so it should be shot down as soon as possible. Somehow, I don't think even dittoheads will go along with that one.

I think I was listening to "To the Point" on NPR at the time.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. These guys reveal their Selfishness and gross Ignorance
They are NOT thinking for our Nations Name, nor are they thinking about OUR TROOPS still there, nor American Tourists/business people visiting/working in Arab Lands.

No, they pursue this line of thought for evil reasons. And Bush by virtue of not saying, "Eh Rush, shut up already", not only condones, but seems to welcome these kinds of commentary because he is so hunbgry for support, he even takes it from Rush and Hannity. Bush, in that respect, is a whore himself.

Shawshank Redemption, the toughie inmate who abused Tim Robbins, he got it in the end, wheelchair job. Do Bad, get Bad, its a matter of time.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Amen Opi! Aren't we supposed to be better?
For the past year is how we were "freeing" these people from fear and terror...and supposedly they'd be so appreciative they wouldn't fly airplanes into our buildings that they didn't in the first place.

Isn't this country supposed to be on a true higher moral standard...the nation that champions human rights? I guess that's only for white-skinned Christians, and Protestants prefered. Amazing how all these assholes have done a complete 180 now that it's being shown that we're no better than what they had, and even worse since our motives are only to exploit the people, not to really help them. The world knows it, we here on DU know it, a vast majority of Americans know it, yet it's these yokels who call black as white and the media plays it up. How stupid do they thing we are?

What would get me is reading the riversbend blog or other sites and see how the Iraqi people have gone from one disaster to another over the past year. From the harsh repression Hussein clamped down on as our war chants turned real, to the looting, then the rampant killings and robberies to the abuses of our military to the fighting among the various religious and political groups. I shuddered when I was reading about midnigh raids conducted by our military for "former regime members" that now seem to be "terrorists". My grandmother related stories to me of living in late 19th century Russia where Cossacks would come and rampage a village in the middle of the night, or the infamous Nazi knocks at the door. No people deserve this type of chaos and we owe it to them to get the hell out, kiss the U.N. and hope they'll still give us some respect and let them straighten this mess out.

Cheers!
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I see promise in Kerry that he would be a lot better than the Loser Coach
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:20 AM by opihimoimoi
we got now. 4 losing seasons and Bush wants an EXTENTION on his contract?
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. What's Worse...Same Losing Line-Up
You'd think by now there's be a head on a platter for this disgrace. Nope...it's all buck passing and distracting.

Rush thinks this is a harmless prank. Now how is he feeling having the same government investigating a legitimate violation of laws based on the word of someone else. He think it's the worst thing in the world. Yet, if it's an Iraqi rounded up and forced through humiliation to name names or get a broomstick up their patoot, that's forwarding the cause of democracy? The hypocrisy is astounding and it gets worse.

The good thing is the heat seems to be still building on this, and I suspect there are more bombshells...pictures, videos and eyewitness accounts coming forward. What amazes me is how long this regime can go against the rest of the world and act even more arrogant.

Opi, this isn't just a losing team, this is the '62 Mets strutting around like they've won the past 4 Superbowls. But then this is the age of extremely lowered expectations and the Repugnican party has made dumbing down the nation an artform.
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
35. I believe Bush has called Limbaugh "a national treasure."
In other words, Bush endorses the mainstreaming of hate.
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SEpatriot Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. First, what Rush knows about fraternities is...
as close to nothing as you can get. More importantly, this just shows what an incredibly naive rube he is. He's not even slick - but I'm sure the talking points from Karl are making their rounds.

There is a very clear sinister side to what is going on in the prison cases. The smoking gun, if you will, is the presence of the so-called "contract interrogators" and CIA operatives who were involved and not indicted or (obviously) reprimanded.

What is caught on camera reveals an eerie similarity to the instructional KUBARK manual and the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual which were used in by the CIA to train operatives in Central America including
- keeping prisoners blindfolded and taking away their clothes
- the application of electric shocks to interrogation suspects
- a list of interrogation techniques, including threats, fear, debility, pain, heightened suggestibility and hypnosis, narcosis and induced regression

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/SOA/SOA_TortureManual...

Fatboy wouldn't find this too amusing if it was him on the business end!!
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thebaghwan Donating Member (998 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. Ignore that man behind those curtains!
n/t
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
11. Randi Rhodes was playing some excerpts today....
What an idiot. I can't recall ever listening to him before. Hope to never hear him again. He needs a good beatin' if you ask me, and I'm non-violent, so thats saying something.


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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
15. What becomes obvious.......
IMHO is that they go into the final state of denial. The perversions of their indocrination into this religious cult are abreacted and they don't know how to deal with it.

Limbaugh is a joke as will be every Right-Wing shitbrain within a years time. It is over for them, they have thoroughly fucked up the world.

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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
17. hazing, which is generally illegal anyway, is at least semi-consentual
generally speaking, anyone who joins a frat knows about hazing. they also know at least a few 'rules' about hazing. first, it's illegal to go 'too far'. might not be observed, but at least there is a line. second, it's done by people who are at least institutionally, if not actually, your friends. the intent is not to do permanent damage or to kill, and while sometimes they get carried away, these are not people who fundamentally hate you. third, you know it's short-term. hazing last only during initiation or rush week or whatever. finally, most if not all of this is know ahead of time, though perhaps not the details of the actual pranks.

none of which is to say that frat hazing is a-ok. but it's a far cry from prisoners of war being tortured by people who really do wish you dead, armed to the teeth who obviously don't understand or appreciate the geneva convention. there's no consent, no rules, no certainty of survival, no time frame, etc.

pow torture is about similar to frat hazing
as violently gang-raping a child is to a little s&m during loving sex between consenting adults.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
21. I'm sure Jeff Christie found the photos to be very scintillating
and I'm sure he probably engages in such acts voluntarily.

How else did he get that anal cyst that kept him out of Nam?
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
25. Questions...
Questions for freepers:

Were the Iraqi prisoners pledging a fraternity?

Are fraternities allowed to anally rape pledges with fluorescent tubes and broom handles?

Are Brittany Spears concertgoers routinely forcibly stripped and forced into humiliating sexual positions while being beaten and photographed?

Is it legal to capture and beat people after forcibly stripping them in this country?

If a family had say, seven children, would it be legal for the father to forcibly strip them naked and force them into a naked pyramid while beating them?

Would you volunteer your son or daughter to be stripped, beaten and forced to receive the end result of male masturbation orally?

Is rape legal in this country?

Is it OK to grab someone in, say, Wal-Mart and shove a fluorescent tube up his or her anus?

Do we condone it if the police beat a suspect to death?

Are the Iraqi prisoners in the pictures blowing off steam?

How many firefights were the prison guards involved in that they needed to blow off steam by raping prisoners?

Do we have any resorts in the US that allow vacationers to blow off steam by shoving objects up the anuses of prisoners who are restrained from retaliation?

If your government came to you and said that you could chose if your child were to serve his or her government by being beaten, forcibly stripped and anally raped with foreign objects or by performing 40 hours a week of KP duty, which would you chose, and why?
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #25
36. Excellent rebuttal, GG, and welcome to DU. n/t
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
34. Let's hope that the captors of this American agree with him
Edited on Thu May-06-04 11:29 AM by rocknation
From Reuters.com:

...Dubai-based Al Arabiya television aired...a videotape...it had received...from a group calling itself The Islamic Rage Squadrons...He was shown blindfolded with a checkered Arab scarf..."My name is Aban Elias from Denver, Colorado," an Arabiya transcript quoted the man as saying. "I am a civil engineer working in Baghdad...I was kidnapped and I call upon Muslim organizations to interfere to release me..."

:headbang:
rocknation
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
41. Umm, Frat pledges "volunteer" to join the fraternity
I still think frat hazing is abhorent and is a type of sick, psychological, sexual perversion.
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alarcojon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
45. Media matters
Has three separate stories on people comparing this to a frat prank - Limbaugh, former US Army sergeant Tony Robinson, and Weekly Standard online editor Jonathan Last. The talking points are out there in full force.
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Claire Beth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
46. Rush is an IDIOT! n/t
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