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rocktop15 Donating Member (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:27 PM
Original message
This saddens me. Help!!!
After talking with my good friend who hates Bush, he confided in me that he is not voting for Kerry since Kerry voted for the war. His vote is still with Kucinich. I told him all the main ideas as to why that is a bad idea (lesser of two evils is FAR better than the greater of two evils, this vote means SO much, etc.) He still won't listen. I hate Bush with a passion but don't let that hatred turn blind. I don't like Kerry. He is a flip-flopper, and a text book politician BUT he is the only viable choice we have. Please help.

Thanks.
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Langis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. "He is a flip-flopper"
Thanks for the right wing propaganda. Just what we need more of.
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Not necessarily RW propaganda
Some may have reached this conclusion on their own before the republicans started attacking Kerry.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I did.
:hi:

I will be voting for John Kerry, even though I'm not terribly excited by his nomination.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. Please. Kerry is the flip side of the coin
Just because SOME of us feel our backs are to a wall with a gun at the temple, don't expect us to start heaping roses on Mr. "I voted for the war but none of this is my fault; it's Dubya's fault for misusing the unlimited power I gave him".

Please don't ever let Kerry get near a 5 year old with a blow torch.

Instead, just hope people like me don't die of asphyxiation before making it to the voting booth- I'm holding my nose THAT tight.

Keep calling Leftist sentiment right-wing propaganda. How far down is the sand soft enough?
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. point out that Bush is much more likely to start more wars than
Point out that Bush is much more likely to start more wars than Kerry.

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. And we know this how?
Wishful thinking, or is there something substantiative the skeptical should know?
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Kerry was against the first Gulf War, and against the Vietnam War (nt)
Edited on Thu May-06-04 05:26 PM by Eric J in MN
nt
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eleonora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. link to check out
Edited on Wed May-05-04 11:36 PM by eleonora
http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway... /

lol, also the longest URL I've EVER seen!

I quote:

This is why I feel it is important to “clear the air” regarding some of the doucheier things that Kerry has done, been a part of, or been accused of doing. All of them have simple explanations, and in the end, stack up to almost nothing. When compared with his personal accomplishments, track record, and agenda, these instances prove to be nothing more than a spec of dirt on the bottom of his shiny, hopefully-soon-to-be-presidential shoes - when compared with the deeds of George W. Bush, they are naught but the sneeze of a field mouse against the sulfur and brimstone furnace-blast of unholy hell.

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Christ was Socialist Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kerry did authorize american imperialism and rape and torture
he voted for it. What it says to be is being reelected is more imporatant than whats right or ethic. Seems like the typical dem line of spinelessness. Thats why i ask what happens if there is an attack and kerry is president, and the people want revenge.
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yup
Kerry might give in and find someone to bomb if that happened. Bush on the other hand won't need an excuse.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. Maybe the VP choice will help
If Kerry picks Clark or someone else who didn't vote for the war as VP your friend may reconsider.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kucinich has pledged to support the nominee.
If your friend is truly a Kucinich supporter, he will follow Dennis' lead.

And if you are a Democrat, I would hope that you will stop using rightwing buzzwords like "flip-flop" about the Democratic candidate.

sw
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Supporting a candidate doesn't mean always agreeing with them
:P
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Well, duh. Obviously DK does NOT agree with Kerry -- their positions
are very different. But there is ONE particular overriding imperative at hand -- removing bush* from the White House.

I don't like Kerry either, but I'm a Democrat, and I'll vote for the Democratic nominee. Getting Kerry elected is merely the FIRST step of a long process for taking our country back. But if we don't even have that first step, how much harder will the rest of our work be -- if it's even possible at all?

sw
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Maybe what Kerry has to do
is convince those who aren't convinced yet, that he is really the first step for taking our country back, and not just a speedbump for the republicans.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. The first step in taking our country back...
Well? What do YOU think the first step is? Splitting the non-rightwing vote so that bush* wins the 2004 election?

Frankly, Kerry means nothing to me beyond being the ONLY tool at hand for evicting the bushies. I don't have to like him, I don't have to respect his positions, I don't have to do ANYTHING but realize that he is the single tool we have at hand for ousting bush*. That's just the way it is.

I don't LIKE that this is the way it is, but so what? It IS the way it is, and the way it IS is that we have ONE tool available for getting the absolute WORST bunch of criminals out of the center of power in our country -- and it's a crowbar called Kerry.

You want to argue about the design of the crowbar? Well YOUR pique of self-righteousness is MY fucked up future. The subversion of our republic goes MUCH deeper than who is president. And the work of repairing and restoring and CHANGING the paradigm is much bigger than deciding who you will vote for.

Voting is nothing, any bozo can go out and vote -- and you best believe, there will be PLENTY of bozos out there voting for the bozo-in-chief. There's work to be done; serious, involved, difficult, longterm WORK.

That means WE have to do the work. Not some fantasy "perfect candidate". If we're not even willing to use the tool that's immediately to hand for the first step, what good is all our ideology?

The first step -- in case you've forgotten -- is removing bush* from the White House. EVERYTHING else follows from that, and WE are the ones who have to take charge of the "everything else", AFTER we take care of the immediate priority.

sw
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Kadie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here is something to read
At least maybe your friend will get a better idea where Kerry was coming from.

John Kerry's Statement on Iraq Before the War
TEXT FROM THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR
October 9, 2002

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry...
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. he gets to make his own choice
you cannot in anything change another. but...... there is still a lot of time. and a lot is going to be happening. kerry isnt as bad as you all create him to be and there are some things you can feel good about voting for him. we havent seen a lot of him and many of us are being influenced by media repugs and ads on kerry and this flip flopping crap

maybe you can listen to some of his speeches, the two i have heard, very good stuff. maybe you can check out his history, the things he has done and accomplished, they are good things.

and then maybe you will be more effective in convincing your friend
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'm getting a little tired of this "flip-flopper" shit
I think we are much too hard on politicians of all parties who change positions on issues. Do some politicians overdo it? Of course. But isn't it a sign of healthy democratic debate and accountability when our elected officials respond to the will of the people by changing their positions to reflect the will of the majority? Sometimes we are a part of that majority, and sometimes we are not, but regardless, it is a sign that representative democracy is working when elected officials fear the shifting currents of public opinion to such an extent that they have to reconsider their issue positions. At first, George W. Bush opposed the McCain-Feingold bill that a large majority of the American people supported. Then he "flip-flopped" to support it. Isn't that a good thing? I'm not saying we shower Bush with adoration and praise, but isn't that a sign that our system of government works (to an extent) when an elected official changes his position to respect the will of the majority?
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Langis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Use your ignore button
It make this board a much nicer place.

And I'm sick of the flip-flopper shit also.
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rocktop15 Donating Member (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Ignore?
Cmon man dont tell me Kerry is the best candidate. That spot would be reserved for a Clark or Dean. Don't cause dissension among the ranks pal. They call it the big umbrella for a reason.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Been saying that for years...
but a lot of people just don't want to hear it.

Even the "good guys" aren't going to do what I want all the time, and there's a whole lotta people out there who vote.

half a loaf, 'n all.


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mn9driver Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. This is such bullshit
Kerry made it clear from the get-go what he thought his vote meant. The resolution he voted for was to defend the US from an imminent threat:
"...Despite his vote to give the president the power to wage war on Iraq, Kerry insisted, "Mr. President, I don't support your doctrine unless there is an imminent threat that requires our action as a matter of survival."

"If you go at this unilaterally, I and others will oppose you with everything we have, because such action is catastrophic for America," Kerry said..."

Note that this is just a few weeks after the vote and before the 2002 elections. There is no flip-flopping here. This has always been his position.

And it turns out that he--and the rest of the country---was lied to, by Georgie and his pals.
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Terry_M Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-05-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I believe the problem lies in that
some of us knew before the war that there was no threat (because no true evidence of a threat was presented to us).
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Egalitarian Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
22. Don't worry too much. We all gotta do
what we feel we must do at each point in time. When it comes time to vote, many who have reservations about Kerry will put them aside and make the logical decision given the available options. We're still at a time in the campaign where support for Kucinich, Dean, Nader et. al. needn't be seen as a threat, but rather vital input into what the Democratic Party can embody. Kudos to your friend for staying true to his heart (at this point in time).
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Tell him to support Kucinich now, because
--if Kucinich can get Kerry to seriously incorporate an antiwar stance in the platform, then your friend can support Kerry with a clear conscience.

Doing something about the war requires institutional power we don't have right now. That means changing the Dems or building the Greens from scratch. There isn't TIME for the latter. Tell him to commit to the long view.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
28. MAKE him read "Worse Than Watergate." Spells it out as
clear as crystal with nary a mention of the (as of publication date) presumptive nominee.

Listen, DK was my primary choice, but Kerry can kick this shit back to Crawford.

And he MUST.

I'm serious--this is the book to topple the administration.
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