I'd just like to say I've been calling Ted Rall a fucking scumbag

[Bombtrack]

for a while, before This

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1521565&mesg_id=1521565

was posted

Hopefully some, SOME, of the people who objected to that characterization and called me a republican for saying that will now give a second thought to that notion that being a left-wing journalist does not preclude a person from being called on being a shit-eating punk from other liberals.

[sandnsea]

1. We're our own worst enemy

I'll never understand it.

[karabekian]

its because if you don't agree with all of the progressive agenda

you are attacked personally as a racist and a right wing bigot. Sad but true and definatly not the best for intelligent and open debate. For instance I believe in Gun rights, the death penalty and free trade. To some I am one step from Bush, a right wing extremist. Forget that I believe in healthcare, good jobs, gay rights, abortion rights, and many other "liberal" issues. It seems to me that for many, its either all or none.

edit (actually a response to reply 1)

[rinsd]

43. Human nature......(nt)

[zbdent]

2. My opinion on Pat Tillman is that he did the unthinkable (for a Repuke)

by actually turning down millions of dollars and safety for going to put his life on the line to fight for something that he believed in, however misguided.

How many Repukes do you know that have sent their offspring to fight, knowing that they could be making a ton of money otherwise?

[w4rma]

5. How do you know Tillman was Republican?

Not that it would matter to me if he was.

[zbdent]

37. Don't know if he was a Repuke - the point was that

a Repuke, faced with possible death, would probably take the money and run.

Witness, the witless pResident.

[rumguy]

24. he was a surfer who biked to practice

no one has ever said he was a republican...

[zbdent]

38. Again, I admired him for doing what a Repuke probably wouldn't do

pass up a ton of money to go off to war.

Not saying that he was a Repub, I'm saying that it is probably an unimaginable concept for a repuke, to give up that much money to be a grunt with live ammo coming at you.

[Killarney]

52. I agree

[ronnykmarshall]

48. Read more about Tillman .....

He sounds like a hell of a guy.


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/04/SPG5K6FD091.DTL

[alvis]

3. I never cared much for him either

Especially since that cartoon about Danny Pearl's widow.

[Bombtrack]

9. Yeah, Or where he mocked the 9-11 widows, or when he advocated

on behalf of Iraqis murdering our troops basically in one of his "genious" satirical columns or whatever idiots want to call it.

Or how about when he sued another journalist for no good reason, or when he said he was a victem of the whitehouse's cencorship with absolutely zero evidence for being laid off from making his unfunny cartoons.

Or when he continually displayed grotesque hypocracy in his attacks on Dean's opponents and his proclamations about Dean.

He is a spoiled peice of mentally disturbed human garbage on the same level as Ramsey Clarke

[BlueEyedSon]

4. What's the problem?

Would YOU got to fight Bush's wars, knowing what you know? Would ignorance make you a hero?

[bryant69]

7. In a word Yes

Belief counts for a lot; now if he went to kill Arabs, as Rall suggests, well, that would be different. But if he went because he wanted to protect his fellow Americans, as misguided as that might be, it's still a heroic thing to do.

Incidently, to forestall the obvious question, no this doesn't let President Bush or Rumsfeld or Rove or Cheney off the hook. There's a higher standard to be applied when you are the one sending American troops into harms way (not to mention the Iraqi deaths and suffering). Tillman didn't send anybody to die except himself; Bush did. He had a moral responsibility to get it right, and he didn't.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[BlueEyedSon]

11. So they are all heroes.

It's hypocrisy that Tillman gets all the attention.

[bhunt70]

16. but its not hypocrisy of Tillmans doing.

[bryant69]

19. Fair point; but as Bhunt says

That's not Tillman's fault. And I'm not certain it's hypocrisy so much as injustice.

[Vladimir]

20. Except himself and a few Arabs...

or do they not count anymore?

[bryant69]

26. It was war

I mean I'm as racist as the next American (and thank you for pointing that out), but if Tillman has killed Arabs in cold blood; that would clearly be beyond the pale. But if he killed Arabs who were shooting at him, I'm not sure I blame him.

Who I blame, once again, are the people who put him in that situation.

[Vladimir]

29. Put it to you this way

If I was to volunteer to go to a war, where I would have to carry a rifle, and use it to deprive fellow human beings of their lives, I would make damn sure that I was informed about the cause I was fighting for. You will get no argument from me that Tillman was brave. But he was brave in the service of a racist imperialist war - and is utterly responsible for his participation in it.

[bryant69]

33. Well that's a pretty high standard

I guess then all of those who are in the military right now don't live up to it. You could make the argument that all those who have served since the end of World War 2 don't live up to it. I guess they all deserve what they get from your point of view.

[Vladimir]

35. There are degrees of sympathy

one can extend. A kid who joins during peacetime because its the only ticket into college and out of poverty - I can sympathise. But if you are joining in order to go and fight in a specific conflict, like Tillman, then you need to think doubly hard about your actions IMO.

[denverbill]

6. Actually, I think I called you a shit-eating punk for something else.

I think it was you fun of Howard Dean's wife's looks. Yeah, that was it.

And I don't think I called you a shit-eating punk. It was something close to that though.

[bicentennial_baby]

8. Well bully for you

"My cartoon is a reaction to the extraordinary lionizing of Mr. Tillman as a national hero. First of all, the media's decision to genuflect to a cult of death is terrifyingly similar to the cult of Palestinian suicide bombers in the Middle East and the glorious coverage given by the Japanese during World War II to fallen kamikaze fighters. Nowhere has this excessive praise for the act of voluntary death been more extreme than in Mr. Tillman's case.

The purpose of a political cartoon is to stimulate discussion, and there was no discussion about America's post-9/11 death cult.

Second, Mr. Tillman served an evil president and an evil cause. Anyone with an open mind after 9/11 could easily have learned the truth, that the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq occured instead of a war on terror, not as part of one. A person who planned to risk his life in combat should reasonably be expected to dig a little deeper rather than to fall for Bush's transparent lies. We all judge each other, and while Tillman's decision to sacrifice millions of dollars for his beliefs is admirable, his belief that killing the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan had something to do with defending America was not. At best, Tillman was foolish and misguided.

Finally, it's time for troops who signed up post-9/11 to take a little personal responsibility. It's one thing for a career soldier to go where the politicians tell him or her to go, but quite another to join the military when the "president" is an illegal usurper occupying the White House, he's an out-of-control warmonger using the deaths in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania to promote a partisan political agenda and his wars are nothing more than grabs for control of oil and gas resources and pipeline routes. Liberals tend to let volunteer soldiers off the hook, but let's not forget the hard, cold truth:

If no one had enlisted after 9/11, we wouldn't be fighting these immoral wars based on lies and greed now."

http://www.rall.com/rants.html

Btw, if you want an idea of what it's really like over there, read Rall's book "To Afghanistan and Back"...He's been there, seen it. lived it, and he knows what he's talking about, imho.

[Vladimir]

10. That's funny, because its one of the few

Rall cartoons I thought hit home...

[el_gato]

12. Ted Rall Rocks! You can be outraged all you want

Ignorance does not make a person a hero, even if that ignorance leads to their death.

[scrotim]

50. I agree with you, el_gato. Political cartoons should be provocative

as this one obviously has been. Look at all the discussion it has inspired, just on this board.

Those who object to the cartoon have been made by the discussion to fully explain why; as have Rall's defenders. What can be bad about that?

[diamond14]

13. Pat Tillman got 'duped' by bush* LIES....it's a poignant editorial

cartoon comment...and I hope that many YOUNG people will understand bush* LIES and walk-away before they too are duped and played for a sap, like Pat Tillman was....

it's tragic....and there are LOTS more young people DYING FOR BUSH* LIES every single day....that's why it's now called

bush*'s "great STUPID war"....

[Misinformed01]

14. Pointing out gargantuan ignorance parading around as "Patriotism" bothers

you?

Rall is simply exposing certain issues for what they are, idiocy.

Like the one where he slammed Pearl's wife who tried to claim WTC Fund Dollars for her husband's non-WTC death:silly:

Loopy is as loopy does.

[Hubert Flottz]

15. I thought it suct too!

I'm all for freedom of expression, but that trash is over the top!

[el_gato]

18. so you are calling for censorship then?

what do you mean by over the top?
is it over the line and shouldn't be published?


Oh, and what does suct mean?

[Bombtrack]

23. people who are seen as representative of one's ideology yet are

demonsterably out of line and absurd and offensive deserve denunciation by integrity having people of the same ideology that is being badly represented

[el_gato]

25. Your offended, I'm not

Tilman bought into the propaganda and got burned.
That does not make him a hero.

[Bombtrack]

27. What propaganda did he buy into, and by the way where does he get off

presenting him as a fucking racist!

[TreasonousBastard]

36. Really, now....

people have been going off to war since the dawn of history for curious reasons, many of which were just bullshit propaganda or lost causes.

I can sort of see Confederate soldiers fighting for their homes, or Americans joining the Lincoln brigades, but one wonders what sent the Crusaders off, or Germans to join the SS.

One also wonders why anyone would get the idea that fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan is somehow in our interest.

One also wonders how the "kill Arabs" comment is racist. The comment is not about race, it is about violence. I think it is the antithesis of racism. It is a comment about how violence is so often directed at "Them."

[FredScuttle]

45. if "kill Arabs" is not about race, why mention "Arabs" at all?

it's plain as day...Rall is asserting that Tillman (who is no longer around to defend himself) went to war because he wanted to kill Arabs. No amount of cutesy parsing is going to convince me otherwise.

It's over the top and cruely despicable. Rall should be ashamed of himself.

[Hubert Flottz]

28. It means you go your way and I'll go mine!

I served in the military and I feel bad about any American serviceman or woman who dies in the service of this country! Some serve for different reasons and that is their business! I had no choice in the matter when I went! I disagree with the media's massive coverage of this man's death, while they hide the other soldier's coffins being flown in at night, like the government is ashamed of them! I direct my rage at the people who caused this killing! Very soon you may not have a choice either, about whether you go or not, the way it's looking! If you are killed I will be sad about that too, if you don't mind! Do you wish to censor me?

suct is short for SUCKED, I was tired because I'm an old fart, okay?

[el_gato]

34. no in fact I agree with you

as far as the usage of tilman by the media and bush

In fact they are exploiting his death for propaganda reasons.

Why would I want to censor you?
You can say whatever you want and I won't be saying stuff
like "I believe in free speach but that's over the top"

[mmm]

17. Rall is exactly correct, as always

Tillman may have thought he was a patriot, but he is no hero.
Somebody had to say it. Thank God for Ted Rall.

[Bombtrack]

21. Yeah, thank god for brats who call people racists, as Rall does

with absolutely nothing to back that up

thank for narrow minded Cambridge knee-jerks who are so insanely self-important and paranoid that they scream whitehouse censorship, with absolutely no evidence of such because the most respected mainstream paper in America laid his extremist unfunny ass off.

calling someone "exactly correct, as always" really shows the ability of you to filter out propaganda. Nobody is always exactly correct.

[el_gato]

22. whatsamatter bomb, getting angry at people cause they don't agree with you

Your doing alot of name calling there

[Bombtrack]

55. I'm getting mad at people because they do what Jerry Falwell does

to the right. This board as a whole will have alot more credibility and power if there is more denunciation and discouraging of annoying fringoids.

[rinsd]

30. Liking Rall is now a prerequisite for being a Democrat? (nt)

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

31. Ted Rall is the national id

he's just able to channel what people feel deep down but don't have the balls to actually admit to themselves they believe, let alone say

[scrotim]

51. Yup. You put it into words for me, ann. (I like your name. Ha) n/t

[Journeyman]

32. Why don't you try reading it before commenting, bombtrack?. . .

The only one calling Tillman a "hero" in that strip is the Editor. The other two people see him as both an "idiot" and a "sap." Of course, I'm having to assume that it is the Editor's characterization which bothers you. What your complaint actually may be is obscured in your illogical, mindless berating of "a shit-eating punk," whatever that jewel of consumate repartee may betoken. Perhaps you could spend a moment or two clarifying your complaint, so the level of this "debate" (I'm feeling generous this morning), might be elevated from the Shrub-level discourse you've set.

[tkulesa]

39. He's not a scumbag

Ted Rall is a friggin HERO! He speaks truths that people are afraid to speak. He is one of the best advocates for a reasonable view of war since Howard Zinn.

[hughee99]

41. Hero???

That's right, Ted Rall is a "friggin HERO" for excercizing his right to free speech, from the safety of his own home. Pat Tillman is an "idiot" or "sap" for giving his life for what he believe's in. While you may not consider Tillman a hero, and I think its not a stretch to infer that you don't, I don't see how you consider Rall to be one either.

46. everyone is missing that Rall

doesn't say himself which he thinks Tillman is, Hero, Idiot or Sap.
Of course, there is an implication.
But he doesn't actually come straight out and say.
Also notice that idiot and sap have Question marks after them.

[tkulesa]

49. Why Ted Rall is a hero

Ted Rall doesn't do much from the safety of his own home. He was in Afganistan as a reporter, out in the combat areas reporting on what was happening. He has first hand journalistic experience about what our country is doing in this supposed war on terror.

He writes articles about US actions and policy that not only express his opinions, but do it well with references to actual facts. (unlike many of his counterparts on the right). And he gets blasted for it constantly.

He faces constant scorn, criticism and efforts to censor him because people don't like what he has to say.

He represents many valid, well argued points of view that don't get expressed very often elsewhere in the mass media, and he does it despite the above mentioned daily attacks.

These things make him a hero.

Yes, I agree with him most of the time but that's a separate issue. There are people I consider heroes for exactly these same reasons even though I disagree with them. And there are a lot of people I agree with who are simply pundits, not heroes. So I don't through the term Hero around loosely.

As for Tillman...

As I stated in another thread, he gave up pro-sports to do what he believed in. I respect him for this. But that doesn't make him a hero.

I try not to be judgemental of people who buy the bullsh*t talking points coming out from the right. If someone gives their life because they believe right-wing lies they probably thought they were doing the right thing. I can respect their sincerity and dedication. But I reserve the right to consider them fools for fighting for lies.

Being a bit of an intellectual, I don't see a contradiction having several different opinions of people.

[hughee99]

53. I guess

what I'm getting at is sort of the big question... What constitutes a hero? What criteria does one have to meet to be considered one? Are there certain things that anyone can do to make them a hero, or will a person's motives, and not only their actions, always come into question?

example: If someone saves 100 children from a burning building, but only as a result of trying to save himself (with no thought to the children) is that person still a hero?

[tkulesa]

54. A hero

When studying religions you come to the question of karma, and inevitably you get the question, is it the intent or the outcome that counts to determine the effect on your karma?

It's something similar. If you intend to help people that certainly counts towards being a hero. Wanting to help people and trying to help people are worthy of respect whether or not you succed. That's why I can respect people who follow their beliefs even if I strongly oppose their beliefs. But that by itself doesn't make you a hero.

If you actually do help people, regardless of your intent, then that certainly counts too. After all, many heroes didn't think about what they were doing, they just did it. Ideally, a hero has both the intent and the action.

We place a lot of emphasis on overcoming risks, so that's also taken into account when you talk about a hero.

So let's talk about Tillman and Rall...

So Tillman gets a lot of credit for giving up pro-sports to join the military. He gets a lot of credit for intent.

Ted Rall's entire purpose is to inform people, educate people, free people from lies and deliberate political obfuscation. So he also gets a lot of credit for intent.

Tillman doesn't seem to have actually accomplished anything heroic. But that's no fault of his own. So while he might not meet this part of the definition for a hero, I wouldn't criticise him for that. Few of us every really accomplish anything heroic. He was still appartently a good person and deserved respect.

Rall definitely succeeds in helping people. He helps push the center farther to the left simply by insisting that there is a left. He gets the truth out there about political lies and hypocracy. He went into a battle zone to report on the truth so that we could see something other than Fox News. I can't be the only person who has been informed and enlightened by some of his experiences, his research, and his articles. (I actually don't care for his cartoons nearly as much as his articles. But they are very informative too if you read his writing and know what backs up those cartoons.)

Tillman risked his life, and ultimately gave his life for what he believed in.

Rall went to Afganistan, unarmed and without military support, as a journalist reporting on what was really going on. He wasn't one of the embedded shills. He is also the target of a whole lot of hate for his writing and cartoons. So he risks his life and his career too.

So, what is my conclusion? I won't disrepect Tillman. He believed in what he was doing even if I think he was was duped by right. He was acting heroicly, even if I don't think he reached the status of Hero. He was a good man who had the misfortune to believe the right and died for it.

Ted Rall is an everyday hero. He's not a ghandi or a Martin Luther King Jr. But he is struggling day in and day out to get the truth out there despite threats, dangers and risks.

The difference between the two men is that Tillman believed that fighting and killing people could make you right. Rall believes that the people doing the fighting doing wrong, and for the wrong reasons.

This isn't definitive, by any stretch, but you asked for some commentary about what it means to be a hero. This is my $0.02.

[wicket]

40. I'm with you on this.

[DrWeird]

42. If you can call him a hero, other people can call him an idiot.

They're both about as accurate.

[hughee99]

44. My question is...

if Rall is a hero, what is he a hero for? Is it for standing up for what he believes in, despite the consequences? If so, is that not also what Tillman did (and risked more than Rall did)? Should I only consider someone a hero if he stands up for what I believe in, otherwise, he's an idiot?

[DrWeird]

47. He's a hero because he's American.

If he had died fighting for Al Qaeda, then he wouldn't be a "hero".

[Forkboy]

56. whine whine whine