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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:38 PM
Original message
it is not the soldiers fault
i am hearing people attack tillman, calling him stupid and other things for the choices he makes. and we are saying get out of iraq, and bush's failure and the greed in going there.

watching cbs and the soldiers in iraq and afghanistan, and the hurt iraqi's and soldiers helping them and seeing the destruction of bombs, knowing there will continue to be more violence and death in days to come, i need to say

this is not the soldiers fault they are where they are, helping to create this horror, as it isnt the majority of the iraqi's fault........it is the small group of extremist on both sides. and we are all wrapped in the consequences of their bad.

i dont want to become a freeper on the other side, this is not a black and white issue as we tell the repugs it isnt.

i hope in our passion to leave the area and stop the deaths, we dont become that. and truly start attacking our troops in anger

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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. I haven't heard..
anyone here call the soldiers stupid.

Tillman was killed in Afghanistan, and I think most people here still support that war.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. you might go down a bit
and read about the dumb jock. but anyway, i didnt go into the thread and dont know. i do know i have hear a minority say he was stupid, the vast majority gives this man respect

just a feel, a trend that seems to be coming. my need to express
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. That is one of the most misleading threads I've seen. If you open it, you
realize: 1) the poster seems to be disagreeing with the title of the article he is quoting. 2) the article he is quoting has nothing to do with the title.
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daveskilt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. attacking the troops is short sighted
The troops have a job that requires them to unquestioningly obey orders immediately. they cannot effectively do their job if they question every order....yes I know it is sometimes their duty to question an unlawful order...questioning the politics does not fall under that category yet. We may think that what bush has done is reprehensible but it would not be enough to justify disobeying orders - at this point that is not the soldiers job, the job of censuring bush is the job of the voters. It irritates me no end when people flame on the troops. If people really believe that this is right then the only logical extension is not to have a military since their only use is detterent through force. We are not in that world where we can not have a military.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. "it is the small group of extremist on both sides"
Bingo.
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. right nt
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. No Tillman Wasn't Stupid!!!
But he was no more important then the other military personnel that have died, whether in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Yes, all were important to their families and friends, and all were heroic in a situation that most of them did not want to be in. But where is the TV and press coverage for PFC Piestawa, a single mother
who was a friend of Jessica Lynch.

It seems that from what attention her death did receive was the fact that she was the first Native American woman killed in combat. But most of the time she's mentioned as an afterthought when Jessica Lynch's name comes up.

We now all know that Tillman was a good student and athlete, but so was Lcpl Zurheide of Tucson, yet I don't recall seeing much about him mentioned nationally. Yes he was remembered locally here in Tucson, but then again so have other troops that were from Tucson.

And, what makes this so ghoulish on the part of the media is that Tillman didn't want to be part of the media circus. Prior to his death when was the last time anyone had even heard him mentioned?
With the exception of when he decided to enlist, there has been very
little attention paid to him, even here in Arizona!

So he dies in an attack and all of sudden everyone remembers him, typical media tactic to get ratings.

Tillman wasn't stupid, and he didn't have to go, but he did. And he paid the ultimate price. At least he was in the right place fighting the right enemy.

Rest In Peace Ranger :(
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. That's right. They were just following orders.
Who can argue with that?
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pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. stop with that already
Yeah, yeah. We know, that was the excuse of the Nazis at the concentration camps. But it is in reference to why they acted in specific ways that were clearly immoral. It isn't so clear to the average soldier, or average citizen, that their individual action is supporting the implementation of an overall immoral policy. People who do come to feel that they are being asked to carry out immoral orders should oppose those orders. But more often than not, orders are not clearly moral or immoral. And when those orders come from a trusted authority that insists that what it is ordering is for the ultimate good, it becomes very hard for the vast majority of people to disobey.

Read Obedience to Authority by Stanley Milgram. And come down off your high horse.
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. "not clearly moral or immoral"

"trusted authority"
"ultimate good"

It all begs the same question: "according to whom?"

Nazi soldiers considered Hitler the ultimate "trusted authority".
They signed on to the Nazis' definitions of "ultimate good".
They believed that "morality" was determined in reference to this.

And so what?

As I see it, these were thinking human beings and they were thus personally accountable for the choices they each made. The same goes for any other person, be they soldier or civilian.


MDN

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pop goes the weasel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. read the book I suggested
Really. What you will learn is that you ain't so mighty yourself and that the really amazing thing is that there are sometimes people who manage to break free of what appears to be an inherent human behavior. Are you one of them? Don't bet on it.
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Mike Niendorff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. I'm not suggesting otherwise.

Nor am I suggesting that I would be absolved of responsibility for my actions were I to prove inadequate in this regard. Claiming that a person's failings -- mine or anyone else's -- are "only human" does not heal a single scar inflicted because of the actor's moral cowardice.


MDN


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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. Some soldiers under some conditions are going to do things
They are going to do things some may call a crime. They are going to think some thoughts that no human should ever think. This is as inevitable as the sun coming up in the morning. That is why I say get them out of any such situation where they do not think and behave in a proper manner. Bring them home and never put our sons and daughters into such a position again. Bring them home and become a peaceful nation, not a warrior nation. Peace Love Dove. If there truly is a God in Heaven we will be done with the Bush* Cabal and we will have our children back home where they belong.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. I want to look at this reasonably
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 06:35 PM by Marianne
There are some troops, we do not know how many, who actually support Bush and his pre-emtive doctrine of invade any country you want and make up the reasons why.

It has to be that way.

There are some who actually do want to kill Arabs.

These troops are not all innocent beings who were propelled into this situation because all they wanted was a college eduction off the tax payers, while serving on weekends etc. in the National guard.

I hate to say that but it seems to me to be at least another look at truth rather than that complete adoration and support of every troop that is deployed.

On the other hand there are those who are propelled into Bush's harm's way without supporting the evil and greedy Bush, who are now in the position of being ordered to support him. They are pawns caught up in their naivite and innocence that will soon be dissolved as they serve their duty in Iraq.

My solution or suggestion is that parents not encourage their children to think that war and conquest is romatic and that every soldier is a hero. Every soldier is NOT a hero. There is NOTHING about this war on terror or on Iraq, that comes anything near the notion that, as 'bush puts it, is a service to defend our "freedoms"

Pray tell how these initiatives habve defended our "freedoms"


That peace and the pursuit of the same, is the most desirable and noble choice, over the tough guy, killer image Bush would like all twelve year old kids to embrace so that he or one of his succesors would love to have them die for him, perpetrates.

Those who do buy that have not thought it through sufficiently or have not been taught how to parse propaganda.


And they go off, thinking they are "defending our freedoms"

Good grief--how can anyone think that our freedoms, the most richest country, the most powerful country, could ever have it's "freedoms" be threatened.

That is laughable. But it is what is being sold to the busy tailed, bright eyed, military volunteers.;



This is really quite conflicting to anyone who takes the time to think it through to it;s logical conclusion

Bush, the pretend to be tough guy and bully, loves that. He loves the idea that he has control over the life and =death of his troops who are dying for him and under him daily. I do think he he enjoys that power in order to boost up his own suffering ego.

Even though he himself was AWOL, he cannot deny or give up his fascination or control with what he perceives is his royal decree over the lives of countless, in this case, more than seven hundred lives--all DEAD--totally DEAD, because of the lies of this stupid, ignorant, dullard of a man who thinks he is in charge of things.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. i like your solution
"My solution or suggestion is that parents not encourage their children to think that war and conquest is romatic and that every soldier is a hero. Every soldier is NOT a hero. There is NOTHING about this war on terror or on Iraq, that comes anything near the notion that, as 'bush puts it, is a service to defend our "freedoms""....



It seems to be more than a lot of people can get their minds around - Our country attacked - but having a Commander-in-Chief who is utterly untrustworthy in charge of the military. Loving our country and despising the actions of it's leaders - and yes, the actions of those being led, as well.



It is horrible thinking of Bush* enjoying all this, as you describe.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. The Troops
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 09:13 PM by bigtree
are led by a mindless, murderous madman. Perhaps you would argue that they should desert and subject themselves to the judgement of a military court:

By the articles of war, it is enacted that 'any non-commissioned officer or soldier who shall, without leave from his commanding officer, absent himself from his troop, company, or detachment, shall, upon being convicted thereof, be punished according to the nature of his offence, at the discretion of a court-martial.'

By the articles for the government of the navy, it is enacted, that 'if any person in the navy shall desert to an enemy, or rebel, he shall suffer death;' and 'if any person in the navy shall desert, or shall entice others to desert, he shall suffer death, or such other punishmemt as a court-martial shall adjudge.'


I don't recommend this for any of our servicemen, especially the younger members who are, in many ways, still working through revelations of right and wrong, good and evil.

I believe that their leaders, who order these men and women into situations which violate human rights, conventions of war, and basic common decency, generally should be the ones who are held in contempt and account. There are, of course, many outright abuses that are the sole responsibility of individual soldiers which are not approved or mandated by anyone. These should be prosecuted to the fullest extent and severity that the law provides.

John Kerry had it about right in his '71 testimony before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations as he answered to questions about the complicity of Lt. Calley who was charged with war crimes:

Sen. Pell: . . . in connection with Lieutenant Calley, which is a very emotional issue in this country, I was struck by your passing reference to that incident.

Wouldn't you agree with me though that what he did in herding old men, women and children into a trench and then shooting them was a little bit beyond the perimeter of even what has been going on in this war and that that action should be discouraged. There are other actions not that extreme that have gone on and have been permitted. If we had not taken action or cognizance of it, it would have been even worse. It would have indicated we encouraged this kind of action.

Mr. Kerry: "My feeling, Senator, on Lieutenant Calley is what he did quite obviously was a horrible, horrible, horrible thing and I have no bone to pick with the fact that he was prosecuted. But I think that in this question you have to separate guilt from responsibility, and I think clearly the responsibility for what has happened there lies elsewhere.

I think it lies with the men who designed free fire zones. I think it lies with the men who encourage body counts. I think it lies in large part with this country, which allows a young child before he reaches the age of 14 to see 12,500 deaths on television, which glorifies the John Wayne syndrome, which puts out fighting man comic books on the stands, which allows us in training to do calisthenics to four counts, on the fourth count of which we stand up and shout "kill" in unison, which has posters in barracks in this country with a crucified Vietnamese, blood on him, and underneath it says "kill the gook," and I think that clearly the responsibility for all of this is what has produced this horrible aberration.

Now, I think if you are going to try Lieutenant Calley then you must at the same time, if this country is going to demand respect for the law, you must at the same time try all those other people who have responsibility, and any aversion that we may have to the verdict as veterans is not to say that Calley should be freed, not to say that he is innocent, but to say that you can't just take him alone, and that would be my response to that."



That would be my response to that.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
13. All I have to say about Pat Tillman
is that bush* killed him. We have almost 10 times the troops in Iraq as we do in Afghanistan. If bush* hadn't invaded Iraq Pat Tillman would have had someone watching his back in that fight.
buckfush!
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tomorrowsashes Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. Soldiers sign up to murder
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 09:28 PM by tomorrowsashes
When a soldier signs up for the army, they are signing up to murder innocent people, and be shot at. Ignorance is the best case to be made for them. If they truly considered what they were getting into, and still went along with it, they are not by my standards good people.

I don't think that Tillman was a bad person, though, and am sorry that he died. I am, however less sorry for him than an innocent person who is killed, and think that he was seriously misguided. He is no hero, nor is he a monster.

I think that all violence, particularily state-sponsered war is wrong, but I do acknowledge that there are some situations in which the alternative is worse. I do not believe that a war, at least the type that was carried out, was necessary in Afghanistan.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. This is not a universal truth
There are some sick ones who revel in the killing. But I maintain that most soldiers enlist out of a profound love for their country, for our citizens, and out of a desire to protect and defend same. They are no less moral than the rest of us in their respect for innocent lives and committment to preserve, protect, and defend innocent lives.

You must have a defective mind-reader.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
20. I'm with you seabeyond, and am sick of these phony high horses
People cursing the soldiers, who by a large want to act with honor and decency and sense, for being lied to, and for fighting in a war designed by madmen.

We have 18 year olds being placed in impossible situations--imagine yourself, 18, with a machine gun, in some Iraqi town, told to make sure things are OK. What do you do?!

I have no doubt that many of these soldiers are becoming worse and less moral people because of their experiences, and that too is one of the crimes of those who knowingly lied this nation into this war. For you can make a monster out of nearly any men, and they are taking decent kids and hardening their hearts, making them despise the Iraqis, etc. etc.

As for Tillman--why does he get special attention? I don't know. Famous people are famous. I do know that he gave up an easy life of wealth and fame to serve his country in a dangerous time and moment. I respect that, and I shudder at his sacrifice.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
21. Most of the time its black or white with me, but this time I'm straddling
the fence. I don't think all soldiers are bad people. Lots of my friends from high school joined the military b/c they needed a job, wanted to get away and the military was a good option for them. Many got an education they were not expecting. Some went away naive and politically conservative and came back radical leftists. Some didn't change at all. Some came back worse.

However, I have no doubt that these guys are doing a very wrong thing, especially now. Now, we could say that many are young and naive so we shouldn't criticize, but they are still committing immoral acts (whether they know it or not). Can there be any doubt that most of the soldiers of the Wehrmacht were any different than our soldiers? Young, naive and believing they were doing the right thing (even if it was supporting the Nazi war machine). But do we feel any sympathy for the German soldiers killed during WWII? Perhaps we should feel even more for them than our own being killed in Iraq, because most of the German soldiers were conscripts rather than volunteers.

Like I said, I'm on the fence with this one and rigid ethical stands normally come very easily for me.

As far as Tillman is concerned, he joined the Rangers after the war in Afghanistan was already underway, and he knew he would likely be sent into combat in that theater, so take that for what it's worth.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
22. Just keep in mind
there are many, many soldiers (how many we will never know) who laid down their weapons and are in jail for refusing to fight in Iraq.

Those are the courageous ones.
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