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sugarman Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:26 PM
Original message
I went to high school with Pat...
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 06:23 PM by sugarman
...Tillman. He was a very decent person. He would not have wanted all of this media attention. Even though, it is disheartening that one perosn can dominate the news, while so many have died, I think it is important acknowledge his service. He grew up in San Jose, CA. He understood multiculturalism, because he lived it. At my high school, there was a big split between Asians and whites. Many of the football players were racists. He wasn't. We need more people like him in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure when he was there he was building bridges between America and Afghanis. That's the type of person he was...
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. They're going to try to utilize him....
as the "perfect" American soldier. He sacrificed himself for you and
me to be here on these boards. :eyes: That's the classical repuke line.
Oh well...to each his own.
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sugarman Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think his death...
...will be a reminder to America that others are dying...We have forgotten. I know my community is devistated...
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. kalian, when you see Republicans morphing the image of Tillman...
... to suit their slimy needs, remind them of another young, affluent man who made a similar choice between comfort and duty. It was a different time, and a different war, but the song remains the same.

You know, John Kerry and Pat Tillman have a lot in common.

Don't let the Patriot Police bastardize the memory of Pat Tillman.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Tillman is a hero, and a patriot, and a good, good man.
That's absolutely how I feel, to the core of my existence. He was an important reminder of sacrifice, duty, and integrity.

Thank you very much for sharing your memories of Pat Tillman, sugarman.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Look....
why was he a "hero"? Because he got killed? Did he actually save
somebody? Do something for his neighbors?
why was he a patriot? because he enlisted in order to join the
revenge sessions after 9/11?
and why was he a "good, good" man?

Tillman was sucked into the post-9/11 bullshit that still pervades
this country. Tillman decided that he needed to go and join the
killings. After all the crap about the lies and deceptions that
our "leadership" has done over these past few years, the only thing
I can say is that I feel sorry that Tillman decided to throw his
life away on a false cause.

Sorry to sound rude but unfortunately, as time goes on, we're ALL
going to realize that we've been had.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Obviously...I don't pander to militarism....
Unfortunately, Tillman's family are not being given the "privacy"
that other flag draped coffin occupiers are bestowed.
Why is that? :eyes: Gee....maybe because his going to be utilized?

Like I said...he threw his life away because of a LIE.
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sugarman Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. What was the lie?
Do you believe that the Taliban was not oppressing Afghanis? Do you believe that Osama is not bent on destroying America? I'm a liberal and I hate Bush, I am completely sure that the Taliban was bad news for the world and that we NEED to wipe out Al Quieda.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. All those things....
are based on what our government claims as being the truth.
Nough said
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Donkeyboy75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. This is a common logical fallacy.
Just because the Bush misadministration has lied to us about other things does not mean they were lying about this. Other intelligence has shown that Al Qaeda wanted to attack the U.S., and they did (look at the Kenyan embassy and U.S.S. Cole...I know, I know, our ships shouldn't be there in the first place, but that's another topic).

I believe the Iraq war is total bullshit. I protested against it. I do, however, support the Afghani war, and I always think it should be a last resort. I have seen it destroy peoples' lives firsthand. Tillman gave up a lot of money and made a great personal sacrifice for something he believed in. I would like to think I would make the same sacrifice for something I believed in so strongly.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Well, Clinton launched cruise missiles at terrorist training camps....
in Afghanistan. Somehow, I doubt seriously that he'd have done that without just cause.

I don't trust Bush. I DO trust Clinton. Of course, it's possible that you think Clinton "pandered to neocons" (that's what somebody else said in another thread), but I still trust Clinton's judgement on everything except his zipper.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. And didn't hit jack shit....
and bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan....
So...? :shrug:
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Do you really think he would have done it....
if there wasn't some decent intel strongly suggesting that there was something going on there?
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. At this point....
who knows. Maybe just to establish precedence...?
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Nah....
the precedent was set far before Clinton was in office.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. kalian, it's the way I feel.
I've posted in many threads about it already, and I don't feel the need to defend it anymore. To me, Tillman was a patriot. I admire him, I admire his choice, and I respect his memory. No more so than any other soldier, at any other time, mind you. But what's important here is that it doesn't matter if you agree with my heartfelt feelings at all... they are mine, they belong to me. As much as I despise the Bush Administration and especially the war against Iraq, I refuse to submit my gut feelings to the creeping cynicism that surrounds my heart.

I haven't been "had" by anyone, and I haven't bought into any post-9/11 "bullshit." I respectfully disagree with your characterization as such.
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. And I respect that VolcanoJen
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 05:52 PM by kalian
I won't attack your personal beliefs, like I won't attack Tillman's.
I just think that its youth being taken advantage off (as usually is
the case in all "wars") by the older and greedy generation.

I just hope that his family is given the same privacy as other
soldier's families have been given and that Tillman's death is not
used as a recruiting tool for the imperialist army.

In the meantime:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Just remember that Don Quixote was a true hero.
That the 'enemy' wasn't (to our minds) real is irrelevant - that the 'enemy' was real to Don Quixote is what's essential.


We may profoundly disagree that Iraqis were our enemy (until we invaded) but we should agree that Tillman's belief that he was fighting the 'enemy' for the sake of his nation and humaity is what's heroic.

That I might believe Tillman was misguided and ill-used makes his death more tragic -- but does not malign his character.

This, my friend, is part of what I learned from being in Vietnam.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. So very well said, TahitiNut. So very, very well said.
Thank you for your words... I know they weren't directed at me, but I do feel better for having read them.

:grouphug:
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I didn't malign his character....
what I'm trying to convey here is that I hate seeing youth WASTED
by lies and deceit.
I'm very much concerned that his death will be utilized to send
more youths to their untimely demise.

That's all...
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Could not your argument
be used to justify ANY soldier or leader in ANY situation, war crimes, Nazis, whatever.



"...Tillman's belief that he was fighting the 'enemy' for the sake of his nation and humanity is what's heroic"
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Anything can be MISused.
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 10:06 PM by TahitiNut
We must remain clear ... the responsibility for how our military is used or misused is that of our (s)elected representatives and ours alone. In a democratic society, the troops MUST surrender to that will. If we do not step up to our responsibility, we cannot ethically blame the military.

That's not to say that some people in the military do not commit grave wrongs. It also stretches credibility that they're all like Tillman.

I don't see Tillman as one who'd knowingly do wrong.

In a larger sense, all that I've heard and read indicates that Tillman subscribed faithfully to that which we pretend we want all to believe. It's too bad that there are those who'd exploit that. It's even worse there're those who'd condemn it.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. It is a good thing to know Tillman died.
Note: I am not saying it's a good thing he died. As a veteran of Vietnam, I have no interest in seeing anyone die during warfare.

My first impression of Tillman's death was so what makes his death important? Far too many have died already. Mostly their deaths went unnoticed. Making his death a big deal seems to ignore the loss of others....

BUT

My second thought was, few Americans are actually serving in Afganistan or Iraq. Consequently, few of us have any connection with the fatalities that occur (ok, a women who lived in Brookfield Wisconsin--about 2 miles from my residence had national recognition of her death in Iraq).

It _IS_ important that Americans realize people are dying on the other side of the world. Many people knew of Tillman because of his history as an NFL player. Consequently, many people can relate (at least minimally) to Tillman's death as something that touchs their reality.

Whether a person is for or against war on terrorism, realizing that "war" kills people is an important part of the decision making about supporting war. Granted Tillman is one person who most people knew only via the television but most of the dead go completely unnoticed by the public.

I am not willing to grant or deny Tillman hero status, but I am willing to say he made a contribution to the awareness that there are American forces engaged in the exchange of deadly force in Afganistan. Too many of us have ignored such sacrifice or notice it only as a statistic.






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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. thank you for sharing sugarman
:)
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onecitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. I didn't know the guy........
but from what I've heard and read about him, he would not like all this "publicity". It makes me sick someone would use him that way or didn't know him well enough to know he would not like all this hoopla. Let the man rest in peace. And I hope people aren't blaming him for what the press and well intended(I'm sure) people are doing to honor him.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. delete
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 05:47 PM by AZDemDist6
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Nimble_Idea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. many football players were racist? Were the football players
mainly white? I'd figure it would be a lil bit evened out. oh well.



I am not blaming Pat Tillman for what the press is doing. The press
is not Honoring Pat Tillman, they are just using him as
propoganda. The Shrub media wants to shine the light on Tillman but
shrub doesn't want to show the other coffins that are coming back home from
Iraq.

Yes, Pat Tillman is a Hero. He was in Afganistan , the forgotten war,
on the Hunt for bin landen. His death should be remembered to show us the
forgotten war and say, "Why are we in Iraq again?"

He died looking for the bad guys, not creating them.
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sugarman Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kalian....
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 06:24 PM by sugarman
...Pat fought in Afghanistan to free the people from Taliban rule and to hunt down Osama. As a South Asian, I think that's an honorable thing to do. We shold have done it earlier, but I'm glad we did it. Sometime force is needed and I would rather have someone like Pat fight for America, than someone who doesn't have respect for other cultures....
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rfkrocks Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I really wonder if Tillman paid the price for Bush's Iraq debacle
I really disagree we should have done "it" (war I guess) earlier-in a republic we don't start frigging wars without a damn good reason-lets face it-the Taliban were creations of the GOP-it took 9/11 for a war-the moronic Rushbo clones criticized Clinton for using military force everytime he did-the GOP is responsible for tying the Presidents'hand (remember the wailing about the "aspirin factory by the GOP) Also our troops are stretched to the limits because Bushco (AWOL) failed to finish the job for the afghan people-now it is a narco state bordering on constant instability again because of Bush-maybe Tillman would be alive if we didn't have to defend and support the stupid and moronic occupation of Iraq where at least 8 other US soldiers died today-Tillman was a hero and this country wasted his sacrifice because our policy is a disaster
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. He didn't "free" anybody....
The Talibs were there and they continue to be there because that is
what goes on "over there". Its is NONE of our business.
Would you be pleased to have occupying forces come over to our
USofA to "liberate" us of Falwell, Robertson and all the other
nutcases when they eventually gain control? Hmmm...? Would you like
for these occupying forces to kill YOUR family...your neighbors, etc?

I believe in the Star Trek "prime directive": DON'T fuck around with
other people's cutlures, beliefs, etc. Its NONE of our business.

As a south asian you should also understand that INVASIONS are not
proper in ANY context. Trying to cover up illegality with moral
trappings is doomed to fail.
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walmartsucks Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Say What?
"I believe in the Star Trek "prime directive": DON'T fuck around with
other people's cutlures, beliefs, etc. Its NONE of our business."

So we should base our foreign policy on old Star Trek reruns? Please tell me you're not going to be a member of Congress anytime soon!
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. So, are you basing YOUR foreign policy beliefs on those of the NeoCons?
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kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. That's exactly what this poster wants to do....
since this "foreign policy" has been created by the neocons, then
he's all for it.
As for Star Trek "reruns", there is some truth to the concept of
the prime directive. Usually is quite beneficial for BOTH sides
when nobody meddles in the internal affairs of another culture.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #23
37. .
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 01:10 AM by fujiyama
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. From what I've heard, he sounds like he was a totally amazing human being.
What a loss for his family and friends. I hope that he finds peace with God and all the other guys who have gone before him.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. So was Pat Tillman killed in Afghanistan or Iraq?
As if it makes a difference, as if the war in Afghanistan is somehow more noble or okay than the one in Iraq. I notice a lot of people seem to feel that way. I don't see a difference, and I'm with Kalian - I think it's sad that Pat Tillman threw his life away on a lie. And the Fraudministration is just as despicable and just as much to blame for fooling him into doing it voluntarily as they are for sending others to their deaths in either country. And let's not forget the 3,000 deaths they allowed and used an an excuse to attack two countries with governments they previously supported and go get what they wanted. Osama Bin Laden was never on the list.
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Afghanistan
Only 110 people have died there, compared to 700+ in Iraq.
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atre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #25
38. I feel there is a tremendous difference
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 02:20 AM by atre
The Taliban government actively sponsored a terrorist organization within their borders, an organization that attacked and killed well over 3000 Americans. They attacked our ships, American embassies, and the World Trade Center. We had every right to oust the Taliban government from power in Afghanistan.

We had no business in Iraq. Period. Saddam Hussein never posed a threat to the United States. The manpower and resources we used to topple Saddam should have been used to locate Osama and bring him to justice.

Global sentiment bears out the distinction. The world was not opposed to Afghanistan; they were opposed to Iraq.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
35. Thanks for sharing your memories
Tillman sounds like an amazing man and welcome to DU.
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