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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:42 PM
Original message
Why did we invade Iraq?
It just occurred to me that there is now a very effective way for the democrats to expose the mad rationale behind this war and make Bush pay for it big time. Simply ask; why did we invade Iraq?

The answer would of course be any of the gazillion reasons the neocons used to legitimize the war. Problem is, none of them hold water on closer inspection. Thus ask again; why did we invade Iraq? Wait for a new reason and ask again. As long as there is no qualified answer, debunk or ignore it and ask again.

Pretty soon nobody pays any attention to the question, but the lack of sound reasoning will start to haunt every bystander like the ghost of the mother of all failures.

It really is simple. Stay the course, ask the question and then repeat it.

We know there is no good answer, while at the same time a large part of the populace are sitting on the fence giving Bush the benefit of the doubt. It's time to make them face the truth, and I have no doubt that when even "Joe six-pack" can't connect the dots anymore there will be no mercy for the fools responsible for this mess.

Why did we invade Iraq?
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. cuz Saddam a BAAAADDD man
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sorry, not good enough
Why did we invade Iraq?
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hellboy Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. To bring the joys of cluster bomb and depleted uranium to the
Iraqui masses. However, some evil doing Iraquis don't appreciate these gifts. They must hate freedom.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think that I am going with the Bush-is-some-kind-of-zealot.
I read that article in the Guardian-UK. I think he thought he was making some kind of strategic move for certain constituents in the country -- such as the oil companies. And I think that he was 'guided by God' to intervene a certain way in the Middle East (in his brain).

We have to get out. As a mom, I vow to you that my kid will not be sacrificed in one of Bush's illegal, immoral wars.

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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. Too bad the sheeple won't care about the answer or lack thereof.
If there was going to be outrage, it would have manifested already (after the first 2 flip-flops?).

As the rationales morphed, it was obvious to anyone paying attention that there was probably a reason, but it wasn't any of the ones stated publicly.

Anyway, now we're in Iraq and we can't leave (Colin Powell's "Pottery Barn Doctrine").
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I know we can't leave now, but...
That is in no way any reason not to ask the question. Everybody knows it is a big mess. Asking questions of why we did it will force a response. And hopefully it won't be pretty for those responsible.

So, why did we invade Iraq?
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hellboy Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. OIL!!!!!! CONTRACTS!!!!!
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. So many good ones....
1. Peak oil is coming (if you dont know what that is go google)
2. Dollar Hegemony (OPEC has defacto already switched to the euro)
3. Big $$$ contracts for Haliburton, et al.
4. Raiding the treasury (Grover Norquist plan).
5. Need new bas of ops in ME after evicion from SA.
6. Wartime political capitol/cover.
7. Hastening the Rapture.
8. PNAC domino theory (transforming ME to democracies)
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. Ask why
If you do, no one can give an answer that you could not easily refute.

Think about it it. That is real power!
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Not enough oil there
Iraq's oil revenues could double and still not pay for the occupation. To say nothing of the regular functions of the Iraqi government.

As for contracts, the Republican-controlled congress could have slathered gravy all over their districts with useless "homeland security" junk.

9/11 offered the enterprising politician endless paths to seediness and corruption. Why the riskiest one?

To this day, I have no idea what possible gain anyone thought they could achieve by going to Iraq. The "remake the Middle East" thing is the best I can come up with, since it is at least a desireable, if not likely achievable outcome. Basically, I'm still mystified.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Re: your oily point
It's the second largest reserves in the world (after SA).

Paying for the occupation is not their concern. Our surplus and our grandkids are paying for it...

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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Peak pre-war production
was about a billion barrels per year -- at a (high) $30/barrel, that's about $30 billion, which is more or less what it cost Saddam to run the country.

If the US managed to double output (an outrageously high mark) without lowering the world price (ecnonomically impossible) they'd only be netting $30 bil/year. This is just of one thousandth of the US budget. Surely they could have found an easier way to shift this much money to their pals.

I just don't see it adding up.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. America paying for the occupation: $100 billion/yr
Stealing the oil: Priceless.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. No one cared (that the reasons made no sense) last time.
Why would they now?
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Because nobody made a point of it
If history is any lesson, failure does not equal votes. And this time you don't have to argue failure, it's self-evident.

Repeatedly asking the question should be sufficient because there is no good answer and everybody is aware of the price being paid; 700+ American killed, thousands of innocent Iraqis, hundreds of billions of dollars wasted and there isn't even a plan to end it all.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Are you nuts? There were Op-Eds. Marches with 10's of millions
of people. Hans Blix, etc etc.

Did you see Uncovered?

http://www.truthuncovered.com /

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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Well, its not for their SAND thats for sure.
Its for their Minds and their OIL. The Fundies want to Christanize the Place and the Bush Guys want the OIL. It is the fundamental resource towards our way of life until we find/develop another energy source capable of equating oil and the energy properties it has.

We are looking for ways to control the "Spice" man.

Come, we drink some Truth.
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mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
38. Because Cheney and
Rumsfeld told him to. Wolfowitz and Perle concurred as well.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. An even better question to ask is what is the exit strategy in Iraq?
Here is a hint. There ain't none.

Don

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Not Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Another question...just who are we at war with in Iraq?
If Congress were to task the pResident with identifying which government, or army we are fighting, how would he answer?
We have toppled a government, and there is no army.

It has come to a guerrilla war, with religious factions jumping in and out as they feel their interests are attacked.

Quagmire.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Heres why:
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 05:05 PM by Mari333
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

(courtesy of TruthIsAll, best researchist I have read)





.....................
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. Jesus, did you hold that post...
Or did you wait for a sunshine response about the direction of American Idol?

Overwhelming does not even begin to describe my sentiment about your post...


Why did we invade Iraq?
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. Who cares?
The problem is most people simply do not care why. A majority still support the war for reasons long since proven false. Deep down, I think too many Americans wanted revenge for 9-11 and Bush* provided them a convenient scapegoat--Saddam Hussein and Iraq. Facts are not important to them and will be ignored.

Very few question why or even how come it is such a fiasco. They are just happy we kicked some "towel-head" butt because the Arabs are all guilty to the great unwashed.
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. The passion of the moment is over
You may argue that wanting to kick some butt fueled the passion for war, but that score is settled by now.

It does not however explain why "responsible" elected officials went to war. They are not supposed to act on the passion of the moment. They are supposed to make decisions on sound judgments, and still they invaded Iraq. That was a big mistake, we all have to pay for it and so should they.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. Because the PNAC is putting their plan into effect.
The PNAC has a plan for American empire. There are, I believe, at least ten signatories of the PNAC Statement of Principles in high level positions in the Bu$h administration, including Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, I. Lewis Libby, Eliot Abrams, and John Bolton.

Here is some information on the PNAC. This is an excellent source of info on the PNAC. IMO, this primer effectively outlines the primary reasons for the invasion and occupation of Iraq:

A PNAC PRIMER:

Some of the ideological roots of today's Bush Administration power-wielders could be traced back to political philosophers Leo Strauss and Albert Wohlstetter or to GOP rightist Barry Goldwater and his rabid anti-communist followers in the early-1960s. But, for simplicity's sake let's stick closer to our own time.

In the early-1990s, there was a group of ideologues and power-politicians on the fringe of the Republican Party's far-right. The members of this group in 1997 would found The Project for the New American Century (PNAC); their aim was to prepare for the day when the Republicans regained control of the White House -- and, it was hoped, the other two branches of government as well -- so that their vision of how the U.S. should move in the world would be in place and ready to go, straight off-the-shelf into official policy.

http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/PNAC-Primer.htm

IMO, this is why the US invaded and occupied Iraq.

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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
16. Exposing PNAC and why we started this stupid war
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. Hmmm
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 05:21 PM by Nicholas_J
because it was there?

or was it just shades of Willie Sutton?

Have you ever thought that the Bush Administation purposely goaded the Germans, Russians and the French into not supporting BUsh's policies in the U.N. so that American corporations would not have to share the spoils with the corporations of the other major companies.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
22. the 800 pound goriller...
the mainstream media, must be kept BUSY BUSY or the att'n of the electorate maybe focused on 1)911 2) bushinc the only benefitiary of that horrific crime.

911 is bushinc's achilles heel. no serious observer can deny that 911 wasn't lihop/mihop

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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
23. Most of you don't get it
I'm not asking for a reason, they don't exist. I'm telling you that asking the very simple question of; why did we invade Iraq, is potentially a winner in November. You just have to repeat it often enough.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I disagree.
Two days ago I spoke with a republican who told me that we invaded Iraq because Saddam was behind 9/11.

I informed him that Saddam and bin Laden were not felt enmity toward each other and that Iraq had no credible part in the attack on the WTC.

He honestly did not know this. I offered to bring him to my home to let him see the facts if he wanted proof. He declined. But he did not argue with me. I believe it made him think about it.

There is a great deal of ignorance about the reason for the invasion of Iraq. IMO, it is critical that we inform the ignorant whenever it will be effective.

Simply asking someone "Why did we invade Iraq?" is useless unless what follows is a constructive discussion in which at least one of the participants in the discussion is armed with credible information about the root causes of the invasion of Iraq. If someone answers "because Iraq attacked the WTC on 9/11" it would be a lot more constructive to present them with credible information to dispel this myth, and others like it, rather than let them continue to believe a myth.
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. The Question is more powerful than the answer
Faced with a choice between enlightenment and ignorance most Americans would choose the path to the truth. And when they do, George Bush is in serious trouble. There can be no doubt.

Simply ask; why did we invade Iraq?
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
25. for no good reason is the answer nt
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
27. Real estate = permanent military bases.
The Saudis wanted us O-U-T!

Easy pickings, so the regime thought. Not to mention all that beautiful black gold and the rich contracts going out to political cronies.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
29. Iraq was invaded to make Bush* look like a "war president"
IMO, no other reason. He was down in the polls.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. ..and secondly for Halliburton's bottom line. n/t
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
32. Do you comprehend?
Fuck what they say. I'm telling you to ask one simple question an then repeat it.

Simply ask, why did the US invade Iraq?
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. Why did we invade Iraq?
It really does not matter what you think. Look at the images of the returning coffins. All's swell. That's America for you. Sacrifice.

But why is it so difficult to ask some serious question? Who on this board would volunteer to die for a mistake?

Why did we invade Iraq?
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'll start
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 11:27 PM by Nordic65
Why the fuck did the Untied States invade Iraq in April 2003?

Once you realize that nobody can give you a straight answer you have won.

It really is that simple.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. It's a pity John Kerry didn't ask that question a year ago.
Because now he can't hammer Bush with the answer.
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. So what?
John Kerry did not start the war. George Bush did. He's the one who has to answer all questions about the war.

Problem is, nobody is questioning him.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. But Kerry supported the war,
so now he can't say Bush was wrong to even think about it.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I supported the war back when they voted on it.
People tend to forget they weren't even letting the inspectors in back in October 2002. I stopped supporting it when it became obvious to me it wasn't about finding the WMDs, and that was in like January. Hindsight is 20/20. And a broken clock is right twice a day.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. I should qualify that...I meant the resolution.
I supported the resolution because I thought we needed some brinksmanship if we were to even get the inspectors in.
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. That's OK
Remember you didn't force the question. Even if you did, your responsibility is none essential. The President of the United States made the decision. He has to answer for everything, good or bad, and that is my point.

No matter who supported this fucked war, the sole person responsible is George Bush. Ask the question; why did we invade Iraq?

You may have supported it last year, but that does not take away your right to ask today why the US did invade. And remember, the question is the answer to everything.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #44
51. The inspectors did go back in October 2002,
with complete freedom to go wherever they needed to go.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. No. It was November 18th.
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #42
46. He didn't execute the war
Kerrys vote for war in 2002 does not prohibit anybody asking the question; why did we invade Iraq?

Even Kerry can ask that question with a straight face. He simply did not execute the war. If he had, then I'm sure there wouldn't be this mess - with no end in sight.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
40. From a neocon friend of mine.
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 11:49 PM by LoZoccolo
He's a real, genuine, PNAC-supporting, Commentary-reading, Leo Strauss-knowing-about neoconservative, not simply one of the followers who watch Fox News. Truth be told, he's one of the most challenging people I know to argue with about politics.

A lot of terrorist groups come out of Saudi Arabia. If we manufacture an ally in the middle east from which we can get oil, we can put the squeeze on Saudi Arabia to do something about it. He had actually told me this before the war. His justification is that terrorism would have killed a lot more people than this process had we not done anything about it. I believe this is a real reason (not that I support it, but I believe this is one of the things they were thinking).

The "Saddam was committing human rights atrocities" argument doesn't hold up when you realize we reopened relations with Equatorial Guinea during Bush*'s term, which has it's own human rights problems. And oil.
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Nordic65 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Debunk it
Facts don't support the claim.

Give him hell and ask again; why did we invade Iraq?

As long as there is no answer the stage is yours.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Um, he'd say that...
...the terrorism coming out of Saudi Arabia would be worse for both the middle east and us. It's all speculation after that point.

He did say that he didn't completely disagree with me that alienating all our allies would make it harder for us to rely on them to give us intelligence and law enforcement to fight terrorism. We're both into this "nuance" thing.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. So how does invading Iraq stop the terrorism coming out of Saudi Arabia?
There never was a case linking Al-Qa'ida and Iraq, never. The proof
of that lies in the continued terrorist attacks against the West
even though Saddam has gone and Iraq is fully occupied in fighting
for its existence as an autonomous state.

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Dark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
49. It's the only black thing that repukes actually want in America.
OIL
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