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To all you 'expatriates' who threaten to leave the country: BYE!

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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:46 PM
Original message
To all you 'expatriates' who threaten to leave the country: BYE!
Personally, I think it's more idle threat than anything else, but it would be nice if the Democrats and Progressives who threaten or plan to leave the country in the event that BushCo* were re-elected, had the balls to follow through, but I'm fairly certain it's all just idle threats. However, if not, bye! Please enjoy your expatriation, don't bother returning when the solutions to the problem are resolved either.

:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Either be a part of the solution...or leave
You cant have both sides of the coin. You either stick it out with the rest of us and help develop solutions, or you leave, good riddance!
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Unfair, in my opinion...


What is conservative about this post? The poster doesn't like the idea of people giving up on America. If there are tough battles ahead, why should anyone's sympathy be with those who choose to bail?
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Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. I agree, but it does sound
quite a bit like America Love It or Leave it; so it's understandable someone might take it as a conservative position...

If you leave the country you haven't left the earth after all and you still have to deal with the problems, just from a different vantage point.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Hmmm.....


To me, the "America Love It or Leave It" sounds much more similar to the "If Bush wins, I'm leaving." Don't you think??

EarthFirst is not telling anyone to leave.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Nah, It's not "love it or leave it!"...
It's "keep your word."

I see little difference between this and handing chickenhawks enlistment papers.
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classics Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Do you have a point?
Or are you just venting at people you dont like?
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. It's the American way...
Self righteous aggression first-
thoughtful discussion later...maybe.
That is the point.
And the reason I do want to leave.
BHN
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Do you have another switch?
You seem to be stuck on attack mode.
Your posts are extremely hostile to anyone
who does not see the situation as you do?
Where is the the room for discussion?
Oh, discussion is pretentious, that's right.
You have missed my point entirely.

BHN
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. As have you, friend...
You right off the bat generalized my attitude and demeanor as being "whats wrong with America" when in reality, your inital statement toes the line of hipocrisy while tearing down my opinion, yet IM the problem with America, and IM the reason that you are packing up and leaving. I'll stand by my initial statement, thank you.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
76. I am NOT tearing down your opinion EF.
I am discouraged by the WAY you express it.
It is uniquely American. An American quality that
I do not find attractive in our culture, and yet seems
to flourish in all sectors of our country today.
There is nothing wrong with your stance on the
subject- it is your lack of tolerance or consideration
for anyone who sees the picture through a different
lense that I find disturbing.
BHN

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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
95. Where will you escape US cultural, economic, military and political
hegemony? The rest of the world is moving right-ward to keep up with the lone superpower's hypercapitalism. End corporate tyranny here or else face it everywhere. Earth First is right, unless you are leaving the country to fight with the Zapatistas, you are cowardly if you consider yourselves to be some sort of political activist. You are not Jews during in Nazi Germany. You are not in concentration camps. Not yet. And if you want it to stay that way, you better toughen up quick, and adopt the same take-no-prisoners approach the fascists have been using to win. Too agressive you say? The morality's too black-and-white you say? Well, do you want to win or be polite and understanding?
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. you sure got your targets confused
what about the Repigs? More deserving of your ire, methinks
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I don't care who's threatening it...
But I see an awful lot of threats to leave the country here at DU. Yea, alot of good you are going to do helping the movement from Australlia or Belize...
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
42. So....what can you do by staying in the US that I can't do from
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 04:23 PM by Zorra
another country?

Leaving the US does not mean giving up citizenship, you can vote by absentee ballot (recommended for everyone), you can write and use a computer for political purposes, and you can speak directly with US citizen expatriates and tourists in order to attempt to educate them and convince them to vote Democrat.

I left the country in protest after the Bu$h selection, and live a simple, highly environmentally friendly life to a degree that I could not possibly do in the US. I try not to use corporate products as a form of boycott, and do not have to pay taxes to support Bu$h's insanity and his war machine.

If Bu$h gets four more years, it is highly probable that he will immediately take steps to erode our constitutional rights and suppress dissent in the US. It will be very difficult, close to impossible, to operate an opposition from within a technologically advanced, surveillance obsessed police state.





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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. The difference: you actually do something...
...while others spend their valuable time attacking people for not doing things their way, rather than actually going out and doing something as you have.

I salute your efforts, Zorra. You are doing your country proud, even if you don't happen to physically reside here. Kudos!

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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
72. Dead men are no help to anyone...
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 06:09 PM by LeahMira
Yea, alot of good you are going to do helping the movement from Australlia or Belize...

Do you think the Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and various other groups of "untermenschen" and who somehow managed to leave Europe before the Second World War should have stayed there to help "the movement"?

You can't do much for "the movement" if you're dead.

And yes, I do think that it can happen in the US. You see, it's already happened... to the American Indians. And sadly, they had no chance to escape.

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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
90. If more had followed the example of the resisters in the Warsaw Ghetto
and sooner, maybe not as many would have been exterminated. However, I can't blame those that fled (if more had fled sooner, maybe not as many would have been exterminated then, either). But more importantly, there are two big differences between there and then and here and now. First, although I agree it could happen here too, we're not at the point to where people must flee for their lives. Second, Germany had to contend with the UK, US and USSR (formidable foes). What superpowers will rise up against the US if the same thing happens here? If we want to prevent a totalitarian gov't here, WE have to do it-- no one will help. So if the gov't does start mass roundups of dissenters (they're already quietly doing it with small numbers of foreign nationals, especially pro-Palestinian activists), you're damn straight you better stay and resist, because no one will come to the rescue of those who are left.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #90
139. A difficult decision either way...
If more had followed the example of the resisters in the Warsaw Ghetto...
and sooner, maybe not as many would have been exterminated.


Elie Weisel says, in one of his books, that the people in his village heard about the concentration camps, the gas chambers and the crematoria. If my memory serves me, there was a person who came to the village who had actually witnessed what was happening. Unfortunately, the people refused to believe such a thing could be possible.

Germany had to contend with the UK, US and USSR (formidable foes). What superpowers will rise up against the US if the same thing happens here? If we want to prevent a totalitarian gov't here, WE have to do it-- no one will help.

The people who were most likely to oppose what was happening in Germany were among the first ones rounded up.

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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
120. I'd call you some names and swear and yell but what would be
the point? Yea your fucking right I'm leavin....I'm working on my visa right now. Fight? You don't know what the fuck my fight has involved. You have no damn idea. I've served my country, held my nose and campaigned for DLC republicrats, and paid taxes for thirty years. I've listened to Democrats, people who scream and yell about change cut down real progressives....calling them outside the mainstream....when what is flowing down the mainstream is neck deep shit. Now I have degenerative disk disease and I don't have the money to get it fixed....it's quite likely I'll be in a fucking wheelchair in the next ten years....if I can afford one of those.

So I should not go to a civilized country that takes care of it's citizens? I should not get my back fixed? I should sit in my chair and listen to assholes who vote for the status quo candidate tell me about how their boy is gonna change the fucking world? Well I'll tell you something pal....fuck your fight....I've fought, I'm broken and live in a country that doesn't give one fat shit...even though I served.

Threats to leave? It ain't a threat. It's reality pal. There is no threat involved. Short of violent revolution....short of certain people being made very public examples of you can fight all you want...and you'll keep getting more of the same...and while your pissing into the wind....enjoying that warm spray coming back in your face I'll be WORKING and HEALTHY and CONTRIBUTING to a society that values the true contributions I can make and HAVE made.

If you or one of your Millionaire DLC pals want to pony up the cash for my back surgery I'll stay and fight...Untill then you can take your goddamn sanctimony and shove it up your ass.

RC
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Still, poster has a point....

...although I think many of these "threats" are pretty idle.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. *sigh*
one does not need BALLS for COURAGE
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
7. I kinda doubt Dennis would talk in such a condescending manner.
You do him a disservice by posting such drivel while wearing his avatar.

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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. You're right, he wouldn't...
however I am not speaking on behalf of Dennis,
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Is Dennis threatening to leave??


I didn't think so.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. God, I hope not! He's a sane voice in a corporate wilderness.
NT!

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
105. I kinda doubt that's a true Kucinich supporter.
Edited on Sun Apr-25-04 12:29 AM by Tinoire
Anyone can slap on an avatar. Just like anyone can slap a -D after their name.


The Kucinich elan is totally MIA.
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m-jean03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. EF?
Do you have the same opinion of those who left for Canada in the sixties?

Or even now, the military folks who are choosing that option?
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Draft dodging is much different in my opinion...
Look, I'm not suggesting that anyone do one thing or another, however I AM venting my frustration that I hear from alot of the youth concerning the Bush* re-election scenario as mostly idle threats.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Re election?
he maybe elected, but re-election is impossible
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Alright, "elected" was poor choice of words
I will admit that...
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m-jean03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. Bush 2004=Draft 2005
Getting out in the case of Re-Selection = Draft Dodging
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mohinoaklawnillinois Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Good question m-jean 03.
can't wait to see EF's answer.
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m-jean03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
94. Thx -I don't really even understand why "idle threats" upset him so much
This election is an emotional issue, it stirs up all kinds of reactions
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks for confirming my inclination to leave-
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 04:01 PM by BeHereNow
It is precisely this type of black and white, "don't let the door
hit you in the ..." exhibited by my fellow Americans,
be they "left" or "right" that makes me want to leave.
The problems created by the neocons will not simply
disappear if when another president is elected.
Our country will be paying the price for these past
four years for the next forty years on levels most
can't even begin to imagine.
To think of living here, with those problems and
a population that can not reason or think logically
but can only resort to black and white outbursts of verbal
statements which have no basis in actual problem solving-
and displays ignorance and contempt for anyone
who thinks differently from themselves....versus
living among people who can express themselves
from positions other than aggression filled self
righteousness?
Nuff said.
BHN
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
49. BHN can I buy you a drink

Well said.

:toast:
Cheers...
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
78. Sure!
Beats the helll out of pissing in the wind anyday!
I'll buy the second round...
BHN
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m-jean03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #78
84. And I will buy the third.
:)
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DAGDA56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. It's not just on our side...
...a very conservative wing nut (who is married to my cousin) keeps saying that if Kerry wins, he's leaving the country. Being sympathic, I asked "Good! Can I have your stuff?"
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
73. lol
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Anything else you'd like to TELL me what I'm feeling?
yet Bush* are the fascists...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Here we go...
CENSORSHIP! CENSORSHIP! WE HAVE A FREE THINKER HERE!
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. ridiculous response..


imo...

Why be so extreme?
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
30. "Love It Or Leave It" just as bad as "If Bush wins, I'm Leaving.."


What's the difference??
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. You know, FUCK IT, someone lock this thread
Some these folks are playing spin jockey just as much as Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter themselves! I never ONCE said, "love it or leave it" or once TOLD someone what to do or say, although just the opposite has happened from those who feel the need to herd together, like SHEEP and put words and interpretations of my post into my mouth, carry on...
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Hey, I'm not saying you said that...

...I was just trying to expound on a point within the thread. There's no reason to get huffy with me. I understand your point, and to a great extent, I agree with it.

Friends????
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I wasn't getting huffy, in fact, this wasn't meant to end up as re:
to what you said, it was supposed to be a response of it's own, appologies...
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Lol


No problem. I think your point is valid.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. I'm surprised, Earth_First. You only started this thread a few minutes
ago and you're already set to bail on it because you're catching a *small* bit of grief from others. You should hang in here and defend and expound on your original post. I'm serious.

Doesn't it seem a bit pot/kettle-ish to you to bail on this thread? A thread who's subject is about people bailing on the USA?

Watch out, or someone might suggest that if you bail on this thread you should bail on DU entirely!

Now get back in there and argue your point, god dam-nit!
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. It does seem a bit hypocritical.
First, EF says "if you want to leave, don't come back"...now EF wants to leave when the heat - on an anonymous message board, for crying out loud - gets to be too much.

That's one of the funniest things I've seen all day!

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Journeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
31. I'd never leave this country. . . .
for then I'd be victimized by its foreign policies.
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
34. I can understand Earth_First's frustration. But I can also understand
the feeling of defeat that many liberals feel now in this country.

America has become a circus for rapturers, evangelicals, religious nuts, rich people who don't care about anything but their profits, corporations leaving the country, general population becoming poorer and still declaring themselves as republicans, people who don't know their history much less world history. And all this presided by a real nut who hears voices and thinks it is God. And all the sheeple think he is really hearing God! and that he is the one...etc. etc.

If we stay and fight, it is going to be a long, protacted fight full of disgust and bitterness and animosity. It is going to prove our mettle and our endurance. Maybe some people really do not want to do it.

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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. True....

...I think the point is, though, if you're going to leave because you can't take the fight, don't expect to return and be welcomed like you never left. I mean, either America is worth fighting for or not...

At least, that's what I think the point is. This whole discussion is getting too emotional.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
140. This is true.
America has become a circus for rapturers, evangelicals, religious nuts, rich people who don't care about anything but their profits, corporations leaving the country, general population becoming poorer and still declaring themselves as republicans, people who don't know their history much less world history.

This is true, and these rapturers, evangelicals, and so on are not going to give up and disappear. In fact some of us DO know the history of this country, and we know that the Pilgrims were the rapturers and religious nuts of their day. One might take a look at John Filson's biography of Daniel Boone to see the hodgepodge of mythic herioc quest and religious mission with which he cloaked an individual who simply could not stand any sort of man-made laws and authority regulating his behavior. The American Manifest Destiny is loaded with references about the alleged G-d-given responsibility of this country to spread "civilization" to the "savages" who knew neither freedom nor Christianity. The Calvinist theology that has permeated American thought from the beginning leads some to believe that if a person is wealthy it is a sign that they are saved and if a person is poor it is a sign that they are doomed to eternal damnation, i.e. they "deserve" to be poor... it's G-d's will.

These kinds of folks have been with us from the start. In some other nations they have been ostracized from the mainstream, but here in the U.S. we have become so accepting and tolerant that we are "accepting" of those who would like nothing better than to rule with an iron fist and we are tolerant of those who will never, ever "tolerate" us.

At yesterday's March for Women's Lives several of the speakers mentioned that we pro-choice folk fight for their right to choose the direction of their lives, yet they would not permit us a choice in the direction of our lives. I suppose there are always going to be a few people who insist on "their way or the highway," and the struggle will continue for a long time to come. Some of us, however, are just tired of it all and would like to live where we can just get on with life without the continuing hassles from the rapturers and nuts at every turn. If the U.S. insists on "tolerating" them, then we prefer to live where they are not.

Canada is looking better every day.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
35. What do "threats" have to do with it?
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 04:19 PM by stopbush
There are some of us who have traveled/lived abroad and would enjoy living in another country. Some of us would have loved to live abroad when Clinton was prez and things were relatively good here.

By many, many measures, the United States is hardly "the best place to live on Earth" these days. There's plenty of places in the world that compete for that title on many levels.

Look, I'm politically active in the States. I contribute money to many causes (Dem Party, John Kerry's campaign, Sierra Club, ACLU, etc.), I work on vote drives and polling, I'm currently working to get certain issues on the ballot in my homestate (like legalized MJ - which I don't smoke, BTW). My relatives all live in the USA. I've earned a 6-figure salary in the past few years. I've owned a home and lived the "American Dream." But what good is all that when you're living in a neighborhood surrounded by RW religious nuts who feel the need to tell you that they're "praying to Jesus" for your soul while their kids tell *your* kids that your kids are going to hell? What good is it when your neighbors all wave their flags while their rights are waved away by a group of RW neo-cons?

My cultural interests are much more Euro-centric in nature. I love classical music, opera, art galleries, architecture, and the variety of Western culture that Europe provides. I love foreign languages and, well, foreigners. I don't follow sports, NASCAR, NFL, NBA, reality shows and much of the rest that defines American "culture." And - "worst" of all - I'm an atheist. As such, I feel a bit estranged in the land of my birth. In fact, I often feel trapped here - and not because I have a good job that I can't afford to leave (I've been unemployed for 3 years).

Lord knows, I've explored living abroad, but I explored that during the Clinton era when I was pulling down a huge salary.

It's not always anti-Americanism that feeds such dreams of native-born Americans, just as immigrants to the USA don't leave their native lands out of hatred of their country. They're simply looking for a better life for their families. Some of us consider ourselves citizens of the world first, and *then* - and only then - citizens of the USA.

So, "Bye," you say? Why not, "my country, right or wrong"? Why not, "don't speak out against our president in a time of war"? Why not, "don't change presidential canoes in the middle of a war (ie: don't vote for Kerry - it encourages the terrorists)".

I'd suggest to you that it's not so simplistic.
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m-jean03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Thanks stopbush --
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 04:28 PM by m-jean03
Great points all of them :-)

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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
58. the initial post was addressing..

...people who were making such threats. If you weren't among them, then the post wasn't addressed to you.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. It all depends on how you read the OP.
EF sez: "but it would be nice if the Democrats and Progressives who threaten or plan to leave the country in the event that BushCo* were re-elected."

So, I guess if that's the ONLY reason that a person gives for considering leaving the USA, then the original post wasn't really directed at me.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. That's how I read it...

...I read your post, and understand your discontent with American culture. I've spent time other places, and have seen how much better informed and sophisticaged many, many people are in their understanding of complex issues compared to your typical American.

I think a lot of this dichotic thinking is left over from the cold war.

So, I don't fault you at all in your sentiments.
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
85. Yeah, what Stopbush said.
It isn't just Bush -- it's the whole culture, or lack of it. I feel like I was born in the wrong country sometimes.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #85
136. Me too. The fact is, I don't like Americans.
I do like many foriegners I meet and fit in with them better. There's just too much brainwashing going on here and too much bagage to deal with.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
96. Except for the
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 11:32 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
atheist part and the part about a 6-figure salary, I agree with stopbush.

I've seen American culture and attitudes get meaner and dumber as the years go by, and I feel that I have much more in common with people from other countries than I do with most of my fellow Americans.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #96
102. That's What I'M Saying!
Precisely.
BHN
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #96
116. I feel that way, too.
Most of the "sane" people I've talked to online are from Europe, NZ or Oz. If I could leave, I probably would. Some bad shit is coming down the pipes. Although the metaphor has been done to death, it's 1933 and I'm Jewish. Do I wait for them to stick me in a ghetto and then cart me off to a concentration camp?

I will be totally unwanted under a right-wing theocracy. I'm a disabled atheist. Not only do I not believe in their god, I also suck funds from the military industrial complex to the tune of $790 a month, which is not enough to live on to begin with. They'll cut me off entirely if * is re-selected. Why the fuck should I feel any loyalty to such an administration?

Even before Shrub, I was thinking about moving to a different country. I don't fit in here. Because I have no money, I have no choice. I have to stay here and get covered in whatever shit comes down the pipes.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #96
137. Exactly.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
135. I'm with you 100%
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
40. If the un-elected sociopath that currently occupies the White house

manages to somehow steal the election again. Then it will
not be long until you can't leave the USA even if you want to.IMO

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PandaSoft Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
41. Would you tell this
to a Jew or other person in a group the Nazis had set their sights on?

"don't bother returning when the solutions to the problem are resolved either."

So do you feel those who fled Nazi Germany should be forbidden from returning?

Sorry, I'm not waiting around for the camps. Make no mistake if these people get another 4 years (assuming they allow elections afterwards) any non-white, non-christian, non-heterosexual, or liberal person is going to be targetted by these people.

But hey, if you want to spend a couple years in a camp be my guest.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Welcome to the DU great first post....

No rose colored glasses on you...
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. How about YOU? Anything you'd like to TELL me that I feel...
seeing as though I am viewing the world through "rose colored glasses"

Why dance around your opinion, just come out and state it, no need for the metaphor and semantics...
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. How about this?....
Are you recommending that all of the people that could potentially be targeted for detention camps and/or other actions at the hands of the NeoCons actually stay in the U. S.? Isn't that what some Germans recommended to the Jews and other people targeted by the Nazis?

Are you also saying that what happened with the Nazi death camps could not happen here?

Maybe you need to think through your comments before you post them so that you don't make make yourself look so bad in public.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
71. It is not carved in stone that America must remain a Democracy

"don't bother returning when the solutions to the problem are resolved either."

Your either with them or against them this is the mentality.

As far as they are concerned We are the problem and trust me They

have a SOLUTION....


It is not carved in stone that America must remain a Democracy

If you stay it's understandable.

If you go it's understandable.

Ridiculing those who choose to leave is short sighted.

They may be the one's that send you what you desperately need.

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jarab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
52. Welcome to DU, PandaSoft!
jarab - DU moderator
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
56. Best first post this week
Welcome to DU.

:hi:

EF you seem to harbor an amazing amount of anger. Understandable, but you are directing it in exactly the wrong direction, seems to me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #41
60. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
47. Save your venom for those that deserve it.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
50. It is a bunch of talk and no action
If even 1% of those that threaten this actually did it, I would fall off my chair.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
53. Disagree, this country could become unlivable in another four years.
I would applaud anyone who left and welcome anyone who returned. Why not? Maybe they went elsewhere and could be more effective for change from some other vantage.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
57. It's unattractive victimhood.
Almost all of the threats to leave the U.S. are bogus, IMO. It's just a plea for pity or some expression of how much some posters hate Bush.

We'll live for 4 more years of Bush, like we lived through 8 years of Reagan, if that's what happens in November.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. Bush makes Reagan look like a wild eyed progressive!
We'll live for 4 more years of Bush, like we lived through 8 years of Reagan, if that's what happens in November.

I wonder if you will feel the same once you find yourself behind the barbed wire of one of Ashcroft's concentration camps...
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
62. I intend to follow through.
If the Dems lose this time, it's over. It won't be long before they close the borders, just as Hitler did.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #62
81. You GOT it!
Anyone following the sneak executive order signings
and legislations knows what is possible- and just as with Hitler,
it will all be legal.
Everything Hitler did was legal- how many people know that?
It was all within German law. Laws that they passed
while the people of Germany did exactly what the
people in this country are doing right now.
Clinging to personal ideologies of how they
want the worl to look, rather that seeing the world
as it really is.

Only a fool would insist on staying aboard
a sinking ship- not to say a fool is a fool by the fault
of said fool, but rather the unfortunate choice
to pay attention to the WRONG issues.
That is precisely what the Germans did.
It is a sometimes fatal flaw to insist on seeing
the world as one thinks it should be, instead of
how it IS.
Personal beliefs have nothing to do with
the outcome of reality.

BHN
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
64. German Jews also thought they were safe by staying in Germany
Those that did not leave Germany perished in the Holocaust.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
74. Good point.
Sometimes there is no other alternative. I hope we haven't reached that point yet. I think we still can take our country back, but we must act sooner rather than later.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
65. i'm considering it
and BELIEVE me, i'd have no qualms about doing so...
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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
67. This country would be populated by Indians
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 05:13 PM by kskiska
(perhaps as it should be) if our ancestors hadn't left their native countries for whatever reason. Some people just know when it's time to go. It's reaching the point where some people in the U.S. are thinking this is the time.

BTW, "expatriates" aren't threatening to leave the country. They're already living in another country for a variety of reasons, for various terms of duration.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
68. Would you have said the same thing
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 05:22 PM by truth2power
to the Jews in Germany who saw the handwriting on the wall and got out while there was still time? There came a point when it was too late to get out.

edit: changed 'where' to 'when'.
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
69. i'm sticking around,of course i'm too old to move nt
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
70. Almost all of the work I do to help..
the Democratic party is done on the Internet. I do all of my writing on my computer.

I can do that from any country, pretty much anywhere in the world. Why do you believe that physical presence within the US is required? Change can happen from all directions.

German expatriates became a very vocal group that encouraged the US and other countries to get involved in the War. They changed the course of history. And you know that without Chalabi we might not have gotten involved in Iraq. My point being, there's a role for everyone to play, even those who leave.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
75. Whether the Democrats win or lose
I have a long range plan to leave within the next 10 years. I'm not leaving for political reasons but many different things, many that are personal. I intend to keep my citizenship here and will continue to vote as an American Aboard. I will leave and I will return if I feel like it and whether you think I have no business returning is of no importance to me. :shrug:
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
77. Folks who threaten to leave annoy me too.
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 07:34 PM by w4rma
Besides if the fascists succeed here, they won't stop here.
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
79. *If* a 2nd Bush term...
came along with a draft, and there were no other recourse, I would relocate my family to some sane country to protect my children from becoming Bush conscripts.
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Victimerican Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #79
92. I agree...
Bush winning, while it does scare me, doesn't scare me enough to leave the country.

Bush winning, and then forcing me to risk death in his war, well, as much as I don't wanna say I'm afraid it's going to happen..let's just say I wouldn't be averse to relocating to the Mediterranean.

Of course, I think Bush has about as much of a chance to win as Nader, but that's just me :>
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
80. Does your bile get spat at those forced to leave due to persecution?
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 07:46 PM by HypnoToad
Just curious, or is everybody leaving just another spineless coward to you, those who see real reason to leave are just as bad and should stay here and die?

(the way things are heading, the GLBT movement is in deep stinking fly-invested horse shit...)
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
82. nice torpedo, keep feigning hate for bush..
and great flying, champ.
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Cascadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
83. I would love to stay if more people would wake up.
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 08:36 PM by Cascadian
On one side, you have a public who are preoccupied with who is going to get kicked off Survivor or what Paris Hilton is wearing or how their favorite sports team is doing. On the other side you have a bunch of ignorant right wing "morans" who would jump off a cliff if Bush told them to. I fear it's going to take something catastrophic and horrible for people to wake up and realize they are being had and when that happens, it could be too late. I get the feeling America is a ship about to hit an iceberg and sink. When that happens, it will be time to jump.


John
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
86. I'm not leaving - but I won't judge those who do
actually, I'm not leaving unless Salma Hayek invites me to be her personal cabana boy on some tropical island - than I'm #$%#!! leaving!

The people who actually getting the hell out of Dodge: well, I hope they'll at least stick around to fight the good fight this November- but I can't blame them for getting the hell out if things don't go the right way.
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newsguyatl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
87. hmm
this doesn't sound like a post a TRUE dennis kucinich fan would type... but oh well.


people here are smart enough to figure things out.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. I wouldn't doubt it is a freeper type
trying a little divide and conquer the Left/Progressives.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #88
100. Stalinist BS
Everyone who deviates from your belief of what the "Party Line" should be is a Freeper. Please review the DU rules-- those kinds of unfounded accusations are forbidden because they stifle dissent (kinda like in the Bolshevik Party).
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #100
125. Everyone who deviates from my beliefs IS a freeper.
My beliefs are sacrosanct, immutable, and irrefutable. I am GOOOODD!!!
He has chosen me to bring forth knowledge and obedience to his commandments.

PS. And this has nothing to do with the fact that it is Sunday.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. Funny guy. n/t
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #126
128. Thanks
;)
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The Lone Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
89. Well, now. We have a leader!
Pray tell, how do you purpose to fix everything? I can just hear the Jews of Germany saying the same thing.

You must remember one of the leaders of the right has stated that "liberals should be killed!" How you like those apples?
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #89
133. Anndrew Coulter doesn't lead shit.
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 12:22 PM by AntiCoup2k
....but it was a repugnant fascist statement nonetheless.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
91. Economic expatriate from Bush' s America
and I will proudly cast my US vote this Fall.

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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
93. This is Democratic Underground, the name implies resistance, not survival
Survival and resistance are not necesarily compatible. Those who (understandably) fled the Holocaust were not resistance fighters (unless they joined the Allied armies afterwards). Arguably, those who fled the Holocaust (once it was in full swing) did not have the ability to effectively resist (the Allies would do the job), but we have no such excuse. The residents of the Warsaw Ghetto were resistance fighters-- they did not survive, but they did resist. The cowardly hippies who fled to Canada were not resistance fighters. The Black Panthers and others who stayed and fought were-- they paid with prison and death, but without those who stayed and fought the Vietnam War may have dragged on for many more years. And if you really consider yourself to be part of the resistance against Bush, YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT YOU HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO STAY IF HE'S RE-ELECTED! Otherwise, you are not any kind of political activist, you're just someone who enjoys bitching about Bush. And unlike the residents of Europe, there are no superpowers to bail us out of whatever nightmare society develops here. It's up to us.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #93
119. You can also fight from a distance
ask Khomeini, Lenin, et al.

It is even easier today with the current technology...
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
97. Nobody should be compelled to leave.
Yes, I know- people talk about leaving if Bush is elected in 2004. I can't blame them for suggesting it. Maybe they are serious, maybe not. Maybe they feel like leaving precisely because they don't know how they can stay to make things better.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
98. Quit comparing yourselves to Jews in Nazi Germany. Toughen up.
Stay and fight. And Earth First is right, if someone's answer to Bush being re-elected is to trapse around Europe in their Birkenstocks for 4 years, fuck 'em-- we don't need em, because they weren't tough enough to contribute to a serious political movement/resistance anyways.

Screw this tolerance, understanding and survival crap. That's not what we need to win. We need good long-term organizational strategy and balls of steel.

I wonder how a Holocaust survivor would react to this nonsense of comparing ourselves to Jews in Nazi Germany? Oh, and guess what? The US, UK and USSR liberated Europe from the Nazis. What superpower is going to liberate us if it gets that bad here? You guessed it-- Fucking nobody. Right now, we're all we got.
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pezcore64 Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
99. lol
Well, no idle threats from me. Only an active promise. ;)

I plan on giving the country until the election of 2008 to start changing, and if not by then, its to Canada I go. Im pretty sure I'll be leaving, so Ive already been making small arrangements to do so.

Ill also be leaving if the draft is reinstated. I heard a Repub Sen talking about how the rest of the country had to suffer the burden of war and how sacrifices had to be made and therefor the draft should come back. As a person whos strongly opposed the war since the idea of it happening was being thrown around, I simply refuse to go to fight and die in a foreign land for ideas I dont believe in. Everyone talks about seeing another vietnam, well put the draft back and you will see it quick. Thats all we need, kids who dont want to be there in a war zone handling a gun.
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cornfedyank Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
101. it is the country that is leaving us....it has been hijacked
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 11:58 PM by cornfedyank
and i am not going anywhere except to defend the noble experiment called democracy.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
103. Oh how nice of you...
...to just turn around and insult people for not wanting to put up with shit anymore.

Listen, some people value their lives and family above a country, is that a concept you don't understand?

People who leave a country can still vote so long as they remain a citizen of the U.S. which basically means, they will still be doing what they are doing, but they happen to be doing it from another country. Which to me is a damn site better to be able to live in happiness, rather than misery.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. Being politically active means you must sometimes sacrifice your own
happiness to achieve the greater good. And being politically active means a lot more than sending in an absentee ballot from the youth hostel in Paris.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. Being politically active...
...also means to keep ones sanity.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #106
107. Yes, but you can't be an effective political activist for change in the US
outside the US (in most circumstances, I admit there may be some). And this is where the fight against fascism lives. If we lose it here, the rest of the world will follow (they already are).
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #107
111. How wrong you are...
...but I don'tintend to get into it with you. You have your beliefs, I have mine.
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #111
112. That's not fair. You can't just make a statement and not have any evidence
to back it up. Oh well, if you must go, you must go. I've gotta go too, so I can't blame you too much. But just remember, I said "in most circumstances". If you're volunteering to fight with the Zapatistas or working with an international NGO or labor union that's one thing. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about people who just want to flee Bush and live overseas because they think the social and political climate will be more hospitable to them. They can sit around the cafes and seem sophisticated to their Parisian friends while they bash Bush.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #112
115. Why should they stay?
From what I understand the employment situation isn't exactly overwhelming is it? People have a better chance of an actual life away from Bush*s America.
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thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #112
123. and how would that be any different from sipping swill in SoHo?
and doing the same?
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #123
127. Good point. I don't like any rich whiny lounge-chair liberals. But these
are also the most likely ones to pack their bags for Prague should Bush win. Actually, I have no evidence to support that statement, just a gut assumption, so feel free to call me out on it.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #127
138. I hate baseball fans.
They waste their time watching the Red Sox while they should be fighting Fascism.

You see how ridiculous you sound? Take a break.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
108. A reasoned response, if you care to listen...
First off I think I have some empathy for where you're coming from. Having said that, your words equate to all of nothing thinking, smacking of a "either your with us or your with the terrorists" or a "love it or leave it" mindset, both of which I think are wrong.

People who angrily write about how they will leave the country can sometimes rub others the wrong way. At the same time there are a great many factors in a decision to leave any country, and it is not always the wrong decision.

I don't believe in self interest so radical that I utterly ignore my larger connection and responsibility to the community in which I exist or the society in which I live. However, those responsibilities must be balanced with individual realities as well. A father and husband may consider many other factors in a decision to leave the country, weight all of his obligations and responsibilities, and make a decision. Different people may make different decisions and all be right. And different people play roles in resisting the forces of violence and oppression. The world is full of need, there's no shortage of it. Some people work for change from the inside out, other people work for change from the outside in.

People are different, but most importantly, everyone's individual context and circumstances are different, so making an all-or-nothing post to "everyone" who plans to leave the country if certain things happen is unfair and narrow minded.

The most important thing for individuals is to understand their obligations, consider all their responsibilities, think about their particular gifts and abilities, consider all the variables, and then make the best decision they can about staying or going. Just because its right for you to fight here from within doesn't mean your situation and context is the same as everyone else's.

I hope this doesn't put too fine a point on it, but to me its far more offensive to hear someone try to sweepingly judge every other persons decisions than it is to hear some people express the fact that they've made a personal choice that may differ from someone else's. I do recognize your right to pass judgment on the decisions of others in this particular context. I believe in this context people should rightfully reserve the right to consider their own circumstances and make the best decisions they can.

For the record there is a long history of expatriates who became extremely powerful social activists, influencing both people in the United States as well as all over the world. The real question is, what is right for you, personally. I recommend spending more time on that, and less time on critiquing everyone else on this particular issue.

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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #108
109. Selwynn, nice to see you again, my response...
I don't think EVERYONE who leaves the country because of Bush is a coward. I'm not sure if Earth First does either. You're right, it's a personal choice. But if your choice is that you are going to leave to escape Bush and the best you will do is mail in your absentee ballot, post some stuff on a message board, and maybe go to a protest in Berlin, then you have chosen your own happiness over the political betterment of the US (and, by extension of America's imperial power, the world). I'm not saying you would be an asshole to do that, just that in a situation like that, you should drop any pretense of being a political activist. I think most people on DU style themselves as such, so that's why I am debating this subject.

By the way, Selwynn, you're too reasonable. Try being more of a dogmatic asshole-- it's more fun!
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #109
117. Catch me on a bad day, or a sore subject...
...and then dogmatic asshole emerges :)
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clyrc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
110. I've wanted to live overseas for years
but it took the horror of the bush administration to make my husband want to do it. I'm an expat now who still loves my country, and is still appalled at what is being done to it. Getting out of Florida seemed vital to me, not the least because the school system is so screwed up. I have two daughters, and I desperately want better for them than we could do in Florida.

Part of me thinks we should have stayed to fight. Another part knows just how rigged the game is and how I owe it to my kids to do the best for them.

When you have kids to think about, they are your first priority.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
113. Just a thought...
Wouldn't the Bush junta issue directives thrugh diplomatic channels to refuse 'emigres' and most western countries would follow suit...ergo the only place 'americans' could go is into countries that desire US expansion...

Might be a good program...sorta a sudtenland/grenada med student thang to justify increase US attacks abroad...

Just a thought...
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bigbillhaywood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. A good thought, praxis. n/t
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Codeblue Donating Member (466 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 03:23 AM
Response to Original message
118. My thought is this
It seems to me that a lot more people in Europe are willing to listen and open their eyes...in fact a ton more people in Europe have already opened their eyes.

The problem with America is, the Conservatives will always be there. There will always be so many in the population that agree with what is being done or refuse to pull the blinders off that change will be incredibly hard.

If one was to live in England it would be different. Sure, Tony Blair and his adminstration are fucked up and trying to make Britain into a mini-U.S. but the majority of the population does not agree. Europe is likely to resist American expansion.

Who will come to our rescue? I say the U.N. will come to rescue us. The majority of it at least. Especially if another civil war starts, many countries will become interested in the outcome.

Maybe I'm just an optimist. Though normally I'm a pessimist.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 06:07 AM
Response to Original message
121. It Must Be Great For You To Love Bush So Much - Emphasis On Purpose
I get so tired of hyde bound Liberals And Conservatives telling me how I should think or feel. I also get tired of Liberals And Conservatives telling me I am some how a traitor to the country if I choose to sit a conflict out. Some of us believe that the battle is already lost. No amount of goodwill or campaigning will change that.

For those that want to flagellate themselves to a pulp by fighting the powers that be in a vain attempt at reform, go ahead. Now, if you want to talk real change, you have got my attention.

However, if all you want to do is battle for battle's sake, go beat yourself up. In the end all you do is enable Bush and his handlers even more.

Ergo, one becomes a closet Bush lover.

(Reposting Because Original Deleted By Mods)
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
122. Your tone seems a bit uneccessary but I understand your
sentiment. In fact, I think alot of those who "threaten" to leave will ultimately understand that sentiment when/if they begin serious planning.

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-04 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
124. What a stupid fucking post
Who would want to stay with people like you around?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
129. First of all
Edited on Mon Apr-26-04 10:12 AM by mmonk
I wouldn't leave for that alone. I would leave before more and more terrorist strikes here and before the international community gathers to punish the US economically. I would leave from a parent standpoint only. If it doesn't seem things are going quite that bad, then I'd stay. It would not be a knee jerk reaction however but one over careful thought and the future.
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ragingredneck Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
130. Deus Ex Machina....
....that would be the perfect solution.

God from the Machine. Here we have been fighting a hopeless battle to educate the populace on the abuse inherent in government and God provides the solution from nowhere.

It is the hubris and hamartia of the Left, as it were. If you guys really would pack up, that would be a large percentage of the population we wouldn't have to deprogram from the years of government indoctrination.

Like mana from heaven.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #130
131. programming has been coming from the right
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cleofus1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
132. yow....
That's hard talk...as Americans we all have a right to come and go as we please...no one here needs your permission to do shit...personally i'll stay no matter what...but i'd hold no grudge against people who want to go...and anytime they want to come home...the home fires will always be lit...for Democrats and progressives...
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
134. This coming from a fellow DK supporter...
This is exactly why I am GOING TO leave...regardless of who wins. I will have a good time and I'll return whenever I want.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
141. O-kaaaay!
Enjoy your fighting with right-wing fascists just so that you can be around them!
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darkstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
142. Well there's "mission accomplished" and then there's "hearts and minds"
to think about.

Getting Kerry elected is the accomplishment, but how is everyone else doing with the notion that, say, 46% of your fellow citizens across the land will SEE NOTHING WRONG WHATSOEVER in the current situation and vote for Bush?

No matter who wins, roughly 50% of your neighbors, family, co-workers will be in this camp. I don't have any plans on moving, but staying and fighting involves engaging, confronting, cajoling and pleading w/ these folks. It's not just *, it's in the fabric of the nation. Anyone have a plan to meet this depressing truth? I don't.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
143. shut up
and i mean that in the most non-insulting way possible.
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