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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:37 AM
Original message
Now I understand why bush is ahead in the polls
Even after all the books, and negative information coming out about bush, Gallop and some other polls list bush about 5 points ahead of Kerry. I now know why...

57% of the people in this country still believe that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, and that sadam has an al queada link.

Who is to blame?

The press for perpetuating the big lie! No one from the fourth estate follows up on false and misleading statements from this administration...
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Please stop blaming the press for Americans being stupid!
eom
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. The press presents what it thinks as news
or wants to be news.
People live on sound bites let out by these news sources.
the Press sold this war so I disagree Americans are being stupid because the press is educating them to be stupid
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. What about the ones that didn't buy into this argument?
Are we genius's?

Stupid is, as stupid does.
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I am game if you are
we may not be genius but we do pay attention to different news sources.
this is a busy busy country.not everyone spends as much time as we do keeping tabs and paying attention.
People hear Iraq and 911 and figure there is a reason that our president keeps using them in the same sentence.
then you got the echo chamber you know the liberal (wink) media
Lets just agree to disagree on this one
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Americans are ignorant, not stupid and the press keeps them ignorant.
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 09:50 AM by w4rma
imho.
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Veggie Meathead Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. I believe that the ignorance of Americans that you talk about
crosses the political spectrum,democratic and republican in equal measure.We at DU are good at portraying our own leadership as venal
and deceiving, greedy and ruthless warmongers.Even the Republicans are remiss in thinking that certain Arab or Muslim countries are our allies ( e.g. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan) and others are our implacable enemies.To get a perspective, I think all of us need to read a classic
published in the Mid 70's that is more relevant than ever to increase our awareness of the nature of the problem we are facing and which, Mr.Bush, characteristically, is unable to articulate well.The book I am talking about is AMONG THE BELIEVERS-- AN ISLAMIC JOURNEY.The author is V.S.Naipaul, the Nobel Prize Winner in Literature two years ago. Naipaul traveled extensively in several Islamic countries
including Iran, Saudi Arabi, Pakistan and others and wrote a series of perceptive essays that has not been surpassed in its insights on the workings of the Islamic societies, IMHO.

His main observations were:

1. Islamic societies are dominated by orthodox clergymen who shun
any ideas of Western societies including the primacy of reason.

2. They are deeply resentful of the progress made by Western societies and use the Koran as a crutch to hide the bankruptcy of their societies.

3. All Islamic societies are ruled by what Naipaul called "half formed men" who like the modern convenieneces of Western technology but are uncomfortable with what makes these comforts possibel,i.e.
science and technology.

4.Whenever questions arise as to why Islamic societies are backward,
the "half formed men" who lead these societies exhort their followers to study the Koran for answers.

In one telling episode, Naipaul narrates a visit to the holy city of
Qom in Iran where an Ayatollah who was a right hand man to the late Ayatollah Khomenei was the de facto ruler.When asked how justice is meted out in his province, the Ayatollah described the case of a man brought before him for some infraction, and without any evidence being presented looked at the man's demeanor and summarily beheaded the man. He was so enthralled by his way of dispensing justice that he guffawed loudly and the entire court was convulsed with laughter
as if on cue.

Naipaul makes the connection that primacy of religion in these societies and the deep distrust they have for the openness of Western societies, is likely to erupt into an orgy of violence against anything Western ( Remember this was written nearly thirty years ago
when terrorist incidents were few if any).His predictions seem so prescient, I went back to reading the book again last night.

I would recommend all of us read it and see what a perceptive mind
able to observe things as they are and capable of writing in lucid prose can do to enhance our own knowledge.While you are at it, weep at the ignorance of our own media and our own rulers.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. Look here: Kerry is ahead in 7 of 12 polls by an average of 1.7%
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 10:05 AM by TruthIsAll
CNN and IBD are Republican shills. So is ABC/WP


12 -POLL AVERAGE
Month Kerry Bush Spread
Jan 40.50 51.25 -10.75
Feb 47.38 45.50 1.88
Mar 47.36 44.73 2.64
Apr 47.00 45.27 1.73


1 IBD
Jan na na
Feb 44 41 3
Mar 45 43 2
Apr 40 44 -4


2 ABC
Jan na na
Feb 52 43 9
Mar 53 44 9
Apr 48 49 -1

3 AP
Jan 37 54 -17
Feb na na
Mar 45 46 -1
Apr 44 45 -1

4 NWK
Jan 41 52 -11
Feb 50 45 5
Mar 48 45 3
Apr 50 43 7

5 ARG
Jan 47 46 1
Feb 48 46 2
Mar 50 43 7
Apr 50 44 6

6 NBC
Jan 35 54 -19
Feb na na
Mar 45 47 -2
Apr na na

7 FOX
Jan 32 54 -22
Feb 43 47 -4
Mar 44 44 0
Apr 48 43 5

8 CBS
Jan 48 43 5
Feb 47 46 1
Mar 43 46 -3
Apr 48 43 5

9 CNN
Jan 43 55 -12
Feb 48 49 -1
Mar 52 44 8
Apr 46 51 -5

10 PEW
Jan 41 52 -11
Feb 47 47 0
Mar 48 44 4
Apr 47 46 1

11 LA Times
Jan na na
Feb na na
Mar na na
Apr 49 46 3

12 Zogby
Jan na na
Feb na na
Mar 48 46 2
Apr 47 44 3

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freeforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. Yes! People have the responsibility
to check out alternative sources and think for themselves. At least, that is what intelligent people do.

Relying on soundbites on which to base your beliefs and opinions doesn't seem very intelligent to me. Read, research, and think instead.

My 2 cents.

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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm not sure it's the fault of newspapers if people think
I'm not sure it's the fault of newspapers if people think wmd were found in Iraq.

I haven't seen that in a newspaper.
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. A lot of that perception can be attributed to xenophia and rascism
I'm sure many blame middle easterners for global warming, colon cancer and the Beatles breaking up.
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Brooklyn-Mecca Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Really....
57% of the Americans that still believe there are WMD's are 100% Republicans.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. Bush's state of the Union speech
All but said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction

the speech writers very carefully crafted the words to elude so strongly that 85% of Americans thought that Bush said Iraq did have Weapons of Mass Destruction.

But after carefully analysis one could see it has only implied and that the speech writers had crafted a way out for Bush once the lie was discovered. It was here at DU we could see this.

When the press holds his feet to the fire on this issue Bush just says "I never said that"

What a liar....
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. I agree on the 'crafting' of his speech
And that Americans, if anything, are not stupid, but lazy. They don't bother to look for more references, or cross-check or analyze what they are told. Heck, I'll admit to my own errors from this on occasion...
BTW, it's "allude to", as elude means to evade or escape from (spelling nazi alert :D)
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tedzbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. Not just lazy, they don't have the time...
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 10:53 AM by tedthebear
Most are working two jobs, or working AND raising kids at the same time. They rely on CNN and its sound bites for a quick summary of what's happening in the world. Too bad.

Are there any DUers here working 2 jobs while raising kids who still manage to stay informed at a deeper lever than CNN? I would love to hear your rebuttal to my theory.

Thanks.

:bounce:

edit for grammer
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ethereal Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. Too New to Start a Thread . . .
. . . so please DU this poll:

"Bush's Strength Surprises Some Pollsters"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4815612 /

The poll is 1/4 down the page on the right.

If you clear your cache each time you log out, you can vote often.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Welcome to DU, ethereal!
:toast:
dbt

PS: Zogby is the only poll that gets the slightest bit of my attention.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. It is stupid to scam the online polls like you suggest.
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 10:17 AM by TruthIsAll
You are new to DU, advising freeper tactics such as cleaning off cookies. If you have done this before, I question where and why and also your motivation in providing this.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt. If you are sincere, you are only fooling yourself. We easily win the online polls anyway.

I have posted this many times. Just look at the first 1500 votes, before the freepers hit, for a true indication. But you probably already know this.

The bottom line. Don't try to bring DUers down to the freepers level by scamming polls. We want the truth.

TIA
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Veggie Meathead Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
14. We at Du must consider the possibility that the American people
are not stupid at all but have realized the unconventional nature of the threat posed by Islamic extremism.Whenever Islamic terrorists feel that infidels ( by this they mean people like you and me, Israeli Jews and Indian Hindus) are posing a threat to Islam,
( as in Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir), they cross national boundaries to wage Jihad against the violating infidels.In this Jihad, they are expected to be merciless toward the infidels so they will be rewarded with the proverbial seventy two virgins in heaven.

What the 63% of the American people who support Bush have come to recognize is that the President cannot wage this war by conforming to legalisms and must employ the same tactics used by our adversaries. This is why even if the evidence says that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism,they believe that we cannot dismiss the possibility that at some stage Iraq could well become part of the Islamic bloc that will not merely provide the troops for this war but will provide sanctuaries for terrorists.In this Iraq will be following the pattern set by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Libya and others.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. 63 % ?????????


There is no way that I believe that 63% of the American people support Bush!!!
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. 63% of the American people support Bush
that is just part of the preparation for the steal.

but they may not have the evms to do it. hopefully.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. I think Meathead sums it up pretty well
1. The 61% of the vote on that particular poll was for Kerry

2. The argument that these people actually believe they receive 72 virgins before they give their up life is more right wing spin. These are people that have been economically depressed and politically suppressed for generations. Al Quida recruiting worked best in the Palestinian refugee camps. a place were despair runs rampant.

Propaganda is used to encourage these people for the cause. Israeli forces shooting kids for throwing rocks (like bullets are proper response to kids throwing rocks) and bulldozing houses into the ground has provided more then enough propaganda to fuel the fires of Terrorism

3. Saudi Arabia used to also provide family funds for the suicide bombers until Clinton reminded them we were against terrorist.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Gee, meathead,
Thanks for reminding us what the Republicans and their elitist corporate controllers want us to THINK.

Lets see... The USA is being threatened by Islamic extremists (that our covert ops trained). Bush is a President and is waging a war (not an usurper making billions for himself and his friends). Wow. If I'd only known!

/sarcasm
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Snellius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. The ultimate weapon of Bush's war on terrorism is nuclear.
Before Bush extremists were a small minority of the Islamic world but the way Bush is promoting the war against terrorism he has convinced a large portion of the Islamic world, not to mention even some of our own friends, that, if not in tactics at least in principle, Osama bin Laden may have been right. At that point, Bush isn't just fighting the war on terrorism, he is helping to create it. Bring it on.

The only way to win the war that Bush is fighting is with complete and utter defeat of the enemy, that means total spiritual and physical capitulation. Total shock and awe. Like Japan after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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Devils Advocate NZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. Bollocks.
What the 63% of the American people who support Bush have come to recognize is that the President cannot wage this war by conforming to legalisms and must employ the same tactics used by our adversaries.

Bullshit. First of all, that figure is HIGHLY dubious. Secondly, conforming to legalisms is EXACTLY what he must do. Anything else merely JUSTIFIES eveything the extremists are saying and gaurantees recruitment for terrorists will increase.

This is why even if the evidence says that Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism,they believe that we cannot dismiss the possibility that at some stage Iraq could well become part of the Islamic bloc that will not merely provide the troops for this war but will provide sanctuaries for terrorists.

If they believe that, then they should be DEMANDING bush be impeached. Remember, Hussein was ANTI-MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALIST. Until the '91 Iraq war, he was a secular ruler who supported the US against the fundamentalists in Iran.

The pressure applied to him after the war forced him to seek assistance from such fundamentalists, or at least pay lip service to them, but he STILL kept the terrorists in check. In fact before Bush Jnr illegally invaed Iraq, the ONLY place you could find Muslim Fundamentalist terrorists was in the Northern Kurd/US controlled part of Iraq (funny that).

Now that law and order has been demolished in the rest of Iraq, Muslim Fundamentalist terrorists are starting to flourish. THAT IS GEORGE W BUSH'S FAULT.

In this Iraq will be following the pattern set by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Libya and others.

Suadi Arabia - US Supported.
Egypt - US Supported.
Iran - Bush Cabal supported (remember Iran/Contra?)
Libya - New member of the US coalition.
Iraq - US occupied.

Strange how so many of the TERRORIST nations are actually supported by the US or by the Bush Cabal, huh?

You think BUSH is going to prevent terrorists from flourishing in Iraq? DREAM ON! He NEEDS those terrorists. Why do you think he has made it so much EASIER for them?

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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Thank you for the TRUTHFUL Reply to the right wing spin
A shame how much the truth proves it is nothing more then the Industrial Military Machine here in America raping the world and killing it's children
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tedzbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
28. You're talking about preemptive war...
The legitimacy of preemptive attack is debatable as far as international law goes (although I don't think there is an actual treaty for it).

By including all Arabs as possible terrorists, this policy promotes racism and genocide as a solution for the safety of Americans. I doubt that the firemen who died in the twin towers would condone such a bigoted solution for their deaths. Those who are willing to die out of love for their fellow man are usually extremely careful before they support political policies that might kill others. Would you want to die or kill others for an agenda (Iraq) that has dubious credentials?
Gosh, I would want to read the small print first (and not just sound bites).

:kick:
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. If the US would quit meddling in the internal affairs
of other countries, the world would be at peace.
The Arabs hate us because we keep imposing our will on them. White Christians have been doing it for centuries.

We attacked Iraq with nothing but transparent lies as cover. The US helped put Saddam in power there. bu$h I was smart enough to leave him in place because Saddam was a stabilizing power. There were no terrorist in Iraq till bu$h II & co started this illegal war.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
33. Threat is universal, religions promoting themselves at the expense of
others is the core problem.

While American people are wilfully misled and wholly buy into what our bought'n'paid-for media, the SAME media fosters the belief that we are posing a threat to Islam. It's no wonder they're worried. (and, at least in America, every medium to major media outlet says the same thing, sometimes word for word. There is no diversity or freedom of speech. Isn't this fascism? That doesn't help either.)

Hell, any religion that says "obey my god or else" is going to be threatening.

In other words, all these religions are wrong for they are the direct cause of most of the hate in the world. And that's heavy irony as religion teaches us not to be violent. Funny, that...

And as 97% of the world believes in some aspect of organized religion, I have but one phrase to coin: "We're boned."
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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
18. I agree with that -John Dean says in his book Worse than Watergate
that one of the deterrents to misleading and secretive government is the 4th estate, that when Congress is not divided (and is not stepping up to the plate) it falls to the free press to make sure the people are informed. Here we have a situation where the government stonewalls, misleads, throws out innuendo,along with a Congress that is Republican and thus not actively shaking out all the scandals. That leaves free press to do the job-if it does not actively present outrage (and is only one more venue for a corrupt government to control the people), who's left?

So it seems to me that it falls on us, while continuing to urge Congress to do its job, to put pressure on the press to do its job as well.
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tedzbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
22. What is the fourth estate?
I hear it all the time and I don't know what it means.
Thanks.
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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Free Press-a link about the possible origin
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HighJinx Donating Member (161 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. 4th estate
The 4th estate is a free press, aggressive professional journalism. The founding fathers brilliantly understood that Freedom of Speech was essential to a democracy. The press is supposed to check on the workings of the White House, the Congress and the judiciary. The press is supposed to hold those folks accountable.

Good journalism is what brought down Nixon.

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
27. The polls are only the last shred of credibility of a disintegrating ...
Administration. They mean nothing. They are there to support the establisment and maintain some stability in this fake government.
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prole_for_peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
29. bush in ahead in the polls because people are STUPID
and refuse to believe what in in plain sight. they don't get their news from anyone but free republic, fox and the wall steet journal (well those that can read)
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emc Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
32. The medias input
I personally believe that the American public is just plain lazy---everything has to be fed to us on a platter---the news, food, cars---you name it, we have it on a platter--shopping mauls, fast food in a drive up, drive up banking, dive up liquor stores--We have become so lazy and the average American wants to forget anything that might take some effort---...
I'm sort of retired, and rely mostly on the INTERNET for news and information---the key, I have time..

.Most people as others have pointed out don't have time, their too busy trying to make a living and keeping their heads above water....and this is where the tube comes is handy----Hi dear, Im home from a hell of a day at the office or flipping hamburgers, and just want to relax and forget, and Ill just turn on my local channel and find out whats happening----and what do they get, canned crap form the elite corporate media figure heads...
Where are the Walter Cronkite's these days----I try to read the best paper in my area, Albuquerque Journal, and its gone to shit like everything else----conservative views...they don't even print Walter Cronkite anymore---Now its Charles Krauthammer---

My point, Rove has us pegged----just feed us what we want to hear, and not the truth and we will just keep on believing---because we are too lazy to want to find out the truth...
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