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Can John Kerry get the U.N., andNATO to pull our chestnuts

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notbush Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:54 AM
Original message
Can John Kerry get the U.N., andNATO to pull our chestnuts
out of the fire?
I started a thread like this last night....got very few takers.
Kerry seems to think he can "work his magic" and get support that Bush, using Powell, never could get.
Seeing what, I believe, the French, Germans,Russians and China did with the "oil for food" U.N project. I don't believe there was any hope of their cooperation.....Nor will there be in the future.
Kerry is as wrong as Bush!!!! We Have tO Get Out Now!!!!!!
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. The UN has already declared it will under no circumstances go into Iraq
NATO includes France and Germany who will never send troops. Ditto for Belgium, the Netherlands, and Spain (which is pulling out).

The UK is under pressure to pull troops out now, as well, due to the domestic lack of support for the war.

Nope, the USA is in this alone -- just like it was when it went in. Thanks, Dubya!
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notbush Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. and that is why I think it's a crock
that John Kerry acts like HIS ability to negotiate will bring these countries in.
B.S.
Get us out of there now!!!!
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, I agree
Kerry's dreaming. Why would anyone in their right mind want to send their soldiers there. They aren't wanted. The country is awash with serious weaponry and tens of thousands seasoned guerilla fighters along with hundreds of thousands of weapon-carrying untrained fighters, all of whom want all foreigners out. And when they actually find out how the US has sold off (privatised) their infrastructure and resources, they're really gonna get pissed.
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carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. Clinton can help rebuild our alliances Bush has destroyed
but it depends on how hot the chestnuts are when Kerry takes office, we may have burned all our bridges by then.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The bridges are burnt already. . .
. . . this is something that the average American not living abroad does NOT understand.

This is not a situation where you just change administrations and everything's all hunky-dory after a year of reaching out. These bridges are burnt and dead thanks to Bush and his administration. It will take 40 years to undo the damage, and much of the damage will never be undone.

Now that the US has turned on Europe, the European strategy has fundamentally altered. Rather than rely on the USA as a source of strength and support, the EU has decided the solution is to grow stronger itself and reach out to Russia and China, isolating the US further. That policy is now underway and will be the new policy, the door is closed to America forever.

This is the key point -- Bush has permanently destroyed the US's standing in the rest of the world. Permanently. Nothing can be done to win back the trust of Europe and Asia other than get rid of the neocons and rebuild credibility over DECADES.

That means, in short, no bailout for Iraq, even if Clinton and Albright and Carter and our brightest minds get back into the game. This is our problem and our problem along, and lots of the world, furious at the USA, is rooting for a US failure -- and will do nothing to help and might even do spiteful things to hurt us in that effort. All because Bush did similar things to them.
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lindashaw Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. You've expressed this with insight and, yes, a certain purity. It's very
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 06:44 AM by lindashaw
sad.

This country is in the process of being humbled to the ground. The saddest thing of all is it didn't have to be that way. But that's neither here nor there. We must do our best, however, and any change we can make in our government has to be better.

When I look into my own "crystal ball," I see this country looking at the ultimate fruits of this tragedy and needing someone to blame.
The poor will tend to turn upon the rich, the white upon the black, and the right-wing evangelicals upon everyone else. It's going to get very messy.

All we can do it place ourselves in the best, most safe posture that we can. We must take care of our own. I hate this. I hate that we don't learn. But hasn't that been the fate of man from the beginning? That we only learn from our mistakes? What a mistake this is!

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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. But...
This is our problem and our problem along, and lots of the world, furious at the USA, is rooting for a US failure -- and will do nothing to help and might even do spiteful things to hurt us in that effort.

It's been a long time coming and, IMO, is long overdue. It's frightening to me to have only one superpower in the world, even if I happen to live there.

Still, what about the Iraqis? Are you saying that the world will sacrifice them in order to put the US in its place? Will the world stand aside and let this war go on and on until the US finally realizes it's lost it? I really hope not. Those poor people... they deserve better.
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necso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
6. No.
There are (were) only two ways to have a solution of our choosing in Iraq: find, arm and organize Iraqis who are willing to fight for it; or put together an outside force willing and able to impose it on the Iraqis.

It is too late for the former, if it was ever possible. As for the latter the costs would be high and it might also prove impossible. The Turks could possibly, if they were willing, assemble a large enough force (and use enough force) to impose some semblance of order, if nothing more, on the Iraqis. I doubt that even with the temptation of Iraqi oil that the Turks would be willing. I do expect however that the Turks will establish a "buffer zone" in northern Iraq when we eventually "cut and run", be that ten months or ten years from now.

What Kerry says now and what he does as president may be two different things. Running on a "cut and run NOW" platform may not be the best way to get elected. Hey, it's politics and we must win, even at the cost of a little deception. Of course Kerry may actually believe what he says but I expect that he will come to his senses when confronted with the realities of our position.
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
8. All we have to do to get cooperation is pull out Hallibuton and
put contracts up for international bids. Since out idiot has already told everyone only US companies will get the contracts (and a few of the coalition), why would anyone bother.

And don't forget, most of the rest of the world wants Bush out of office, so they're not going to support the US government.

And of course, Kerry is going to have to care about the big world picture and the Iraqi peoples' rights more than oil company profits.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. There is some self interest here

no matter what the EU thinks of the US, it cannot, just as we
cannot, allow the Mideast descend into a hell. GWB opened this
can of worms with his Neocon idiots, but no one can allow it to
just spill out on the counter top. So the EU will have a strong
motivation to see some sort of stable government in Iraq, one which
does not threaten a large portion of the world's oil supply. So,
while it may take years (not decades, that's silly) to rebuild
relations with "old Europe", the EU and Russia and the UN may well
work with Kerry to stabilize Iraq. Let's detail a plan that has
a chance...

1) Kerry goes hat in hand and humbly begs NATO and UN for help ( while
back channel diplomats make the obvious "in your best interests" case)

2) We vastly increase the forces on the ground (to something like
300,000) and disband the chalabi led council

3) Use even MORE money (another 50 B) to hire every Iraqi that wants
a job to work on rebuilding Iraq and remove US war profiteers.

4) The UN led interim government will set up elections in a year.

5) The armed forces go door to door and confiscate all weapons (BUT,
to allow the Iraqis to save face, we buy them)

6) We tell them that after the elections, we (the US and the UN)
will completely leave.

7) We leave at least one complete armored division with the Kurds
for 2 to 3 years... until they are trained on the equipment, and
then we leave them the tanks and guns and such... and tell them if
they ever use it except in self defense, we will come back and blow
up every tank and gun, right down to the last humvee.

8) We tell Sharon and Israel that they need to leave the west bank,
negotiate a real settlement with the Palestinians and do something
to create a complete contiguous state of Palistine... and then tell
the Palestinians that if they don't accept the deal and keep sending
terrorists (or freedom fighters) to Israel, then we are done with it
and Sharon can do whatever he wants (it's a bluff, but we have to
appear to be willing to do it).

And then we pray a lot.

And, hopefully, start working QUICKLY on a complete hydrogen based
economy (like the Apollo program).

And, while I may not live in Europe, I have a lot of business
associates in Europe, Australia, and China... and they are not ready
to throw in the towel on the United States just yet (although they
are mighty disappointed in *)
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