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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:32 AM
Original message
Why all the crocodile tears over Tillman?
He CHOSE to go. He knew that he might die and still chose to enlist.

Why no tears over the hundreds of people who enlisted, hoping to defend the country against invasion or help in the National Guard with domestic issues? The people who were in their teens and had children at home?

This worship of celebrity is a national disgrace. Tillman was no more or less a hero than the hundreds of people who died in front of him who weren't lucky enough to win a multi-million dollar sports contract.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. What, you mean, here at DU?
Personally, I think its tragic that Tillman died, and I think he is owed much respect.

However, I think this of all of the people who have signed up and gone to Iraq. I respect them for doing what they believe in.

But, if you are talking about just the media in general, well...

It really takes a lot to open people's eyes.

I am hoping that now that there is a famous face to this death, people will start asking "why".
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I find the whole spectacle disgusting. . .
. . . you'd think nobody had died in Iraq at all until some jock with a million-dollar contract and some celebrity died in Afghanistan.

What about the hundreds who have died so far -- likely to be well over 1,000 by the election? Oh, that's right, they're not celebrities, their deaths don't matter.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Blame the Spectacle, but don't blame Tillman.
I know that's what you meant, but it bears repeating.

And yes, the spectacle is sad, and represents everything that Tillman stood, in a stoic manner, against.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Hey, I hear ya.
And, yes, I know, most people don't even give a shit about the daily deaths being reported.

I think its shameful and disgusting.

But at least this death got exposure.

I don't mean in any way to dishonor the other 700+ that have died, or even the well over 1000 who have been wounded to date.

I hate to break this to you, but when famous people do anything, no matter how everyday, it gets covered.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. What spectacle? What has been done that is undignified at all
you just sound like a bitter person and you're having a fit because the coverage doesn't fit you're exact taste.

It is a newsworthy enough event to deserve as much coverage as I have witnessed here. Are you even in the US to see the coverage? It isn't 24/7.

That there has been too little coverage of others deaths in the war(s) is a cogent, deserved critism, but that his has recieved to much and that is "disgusting" is just idiotic.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. You're damn right I'm bitter. . .
As far as the media's concerned, along with 1/2 the USA, nobody in Iraq really died until this guy. All because he was a celebrity.

The US public and media are getting a disgusting disregard for human life -- that those who die don't deserve coverage or note until a celebrity is killed.

Imagine if the media had put as much effort into getting pictures of casualties caskets as they put into getting pictures from the Diana and Dodi crash. Hell, imagine if they'd put 1/10th the effort into the casket photo story.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Now that's a damned good point.
Hell, imagine if they'd put 1/10th the effort into the casket photo story.

Amazing that it takes a little, under-funded webmaster from www.TheMemoryHole.org, who knows his way around the Freedom of Information Act, to break this story wide-open.

:grr: Lazy, worthless media. :grr:
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Heyo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
66. How come then...
All I've seen all morning long and all day yesterday and the day before on all 3 cables news channels is 'casket photos casket photos casket photos' with now also 'tillman tillman tillman' since it happened (which was yesterday I guess...?)...

The media is beating the casket photo story to death too...

(my opnion on that is that unless one of your own family members is in one of those, your opinion is just that.. your opinion, but it's not your decision)

Heyo
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. You are simply wrong. There is no half of America of whom nobody died
in Iraq until now. Not to democrats, not to republicans, not to apathetic independants or astute independants. Again, ARE YOU EVEN HERE to judge with your own eyes? Tillmans death was a newsworthy event, more than most other soldiers, because of reasons I addressed and you ignored. And the "spectacle" you have imagined does not exist. The coverage he has gotten has been dignified and deserved. He wasn't really a "celebrity". 99.99 percent of Americans probably did not know who he was until yesterday. The only time I had ever heard of him was from Bill Maher who rightfully pointed out that one of the few athletes truely deserving of the overused hero label was Tillman, and I quickly forgot about him up until yesterday.

It's not as if any other countries media doesn't report the most compelling stories of the day. And by any reasonable manner, a person of such character suddenly being introduced to the American public apon his death fighting for his country when he truely could have been living like a king is a compelling national story.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. lol
Tillmans death was a newsworthy event

Solely because he was a football star. Other millionaries who gave it up to go get no respect.

Hell, the media covers most of the deaths like they're just numbers. But now a celebrity has died, better cover it!

a person of such character suddenly being introduced to the American public apon his death fighting for his country when he truely could have been living like a king is a compelling national story

There were many people who could live like a king who were also killed, including National Guard reservists AND people who enlisted rather than choosing a life of luxury. The thing they were missing? The celebrity around a sports contract.

It sickens me to think that the hundreds of other people who died in Iraq under false pretenses aren't "newsworthy" (to use your word), but someone who chose to go to Afghanistan and gave up football millions (instead of family business millions) is a newsworthy person, simply by fact of his celebrity.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. please list....
the millionaires who threw it all away after 9/11 to join the service, and then died.

Tillman's fame and fortune was dependent on his physical health. If he couldn't play ball, he had nothing. But he joined up anyway, put his health and career on the line, and died. He didn't hire a manager to take care of his inherited family business, or to stand in for him while he served.

He was living the American dream. He was at the top of his profession, a profession which is dependent on youth and strength. He gave it all up. If he hadn't been injured, he'd still have given it up, since coming back 4 years later, it's doubtful that he could have resumed his career.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. I'm not going to violate his privacy
His family and friends (including me) have suffered enough. Suffice to say the media does know who he is and he won't get a special story.

In addition, your contention that someone giving up millions of dollars is sacrificing more than someone who gives up his family to risk it all is dehumanizing. It says that millions of dollars is a bigger sacrifice than one's spouse and children. That's kinda sick, wouldn't you say?
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Wrong.
I didn't say giving up his career was sacrificing more than somebody who just gave up his family.

I said giving up his career, IN ADDITION to giving up his family, is more of a sacrifice than somebody who just gave up his family. Tillman gave up the same things other casualties gave up, PLUS his career.

It's not an "either/or" proposition. Tillman did BOTH.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Well. . .
. . . I am sorry that you don't believe the other people who have died deserve recognition. I happen to believe differently.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
73. Where did I say that?
Please quote me.

Tillman's case is simply more "newsworthy" because he DIDN'T sign up for the benefits, he signed up out of a sense of duty, and he gave up more than the others did to do so. He didn't HAVE to go, but went anyway.

When Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable signed up for WWII, they got more press than Joe Blow from Paducah, Ky, got. Had they been killed, the story would have been more newsworthy than the death of Joe Blow from Paducah, Ky.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
39. Kinda sick????
C'mon, Brian. I'm as angry as you are about this enduring war, but shitting all over the memory of Pat Tillman is ridiculous.

You can rage against the media all you want, but leave Tillman out of it. He wanted nothing to do with this aftermath. He wanted nothing more than to serve his country in the war against whoever smashed those planes into those buildings. He asked for nothing in return; no fanfare, no halftime tributes, no retirement of uniform numbers. Give the dead man, and his family, a break.

He is no different from any other soldier who has perished or suffered unimaginable horrors. He didn't want to be any different. He chose to be a soldier instead of a football star. His memory is an enduring one, and one that I personally embrace, and mourn, and admire.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
43. But Tillman himself
from interviews with coaches, wouldn't want all this hoopla either. To him he was just one of many who went to service for the country. I have to agree that even though he did give up a million dollar contract to live the soft cushy life, there are many "average joes" who did the same.

While I grieve for ANYONE who has lost their life, I don't see where Tillman's life was more "news worthy" than the dentist, doctor, father, mother,...and so many...

It's sad that the media can't make EVERY death in this farce of a war, as a headline news story with their biography
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. Tillman is the man who rejected a multi-million dollar contract.
At least grant that he was truly unusual.

And that he might still be alive if Bush hadn't diverted troops, money, and resources to the Iraq War.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. It is more brave to enlist after the WOT began than before
and it is more selfless in many peoples opinions including mine, to chose 27 thousand dollars over multi-millions to surve one's country at a time of perrill and avoid media attention in doing so.

Because although every one who has died in the WOT and everyone serving in it is a hero because of it, the vast majority of those individuals would not have made the same choice as Tillman if given his options.
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notbush Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. How true
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. For the same reason that a movie called The Passion received more
media attention than the death of our soldiers. People make odd emotional connections. There isn't any rational thinking taking place. It's all a visceral knee jerk reaction. Cognitive dissonance.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
29. Of course it is. . .
. . . and now the apologies begin.

Of course, the thing the apologists will never explain is why all those other hundreds of people who are dead, who gave up money (but more importantly, their families and lives with their families) don't deserve any coverage or respect because they aren't celebrities.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:07 AM
Response to Original message
10. No crocodile tears here. Real ones. Why? He *chose* to go.
He went to fight for this country.

He was not a decision maker. He trusted the people in power in our government.

He is a hero, imho.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
11. I give him credit
While many young men prefer to bang the drums for war from the comfort of their homes, Tillman actually put his money where his mouth was and put on a uniform. He walked the walk and talked the talk when it was entirely possible for him to stay home. No chickenhawking here. He was a man of 100% honor.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:48 AM
Response to Original message
13. Tillman
wasn't presented with a few bad options to choose from. He "had it all". He was a pro football player, raking in obscene money, who didn't join the serrvice to get an education or to avoid starving. Instead, he gave up fame and fortune to serve. He didn't join the military for any of the incentives. He didn't do it for money or an education. He had education, he had money, he had fame, and he threw it all away to SERVE.

He had a lot to lose, and he lost it all. He shared what everybody else who has died in this war had to lose, his life. But he had options which could have prevented his loss. Rather than sit back and enjoy the benefits he'd earned, he put his money where his mouth was, gave up his multi-million dollar contract, joined up, went overseas, and died. That was a tremendously selfless thing to do, and for doing it, I honor him.

I don't follow football. Before today, I don't think I'd ever heard Tillman's name. But from what I've heard today, I have a hell of a lot of respect for the man.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Lots of other people served honourably. . .
. . . and left behind families, yet already they're forgotten. Only celebrities get attention.

If Tillman had been a well-to-do family man who'd volunteered to serve, with everything else being the same, he'd have received no coverage. It was only his celebrity that got the media paying attention to his death. That doesn't make you sick?

I'm saying nothing about Tillman -- I am pissed off at the media.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Tillman had all of the things every other person who died had...
in the form of family that loved him and things like that.

What Tillman had that the others didn't have was a multi-million dollar pro football contract.

He didn't HAVE to sign up for the military. He already had an education, he was making many times the money, but he went anyway. In dying, he gave up what all of the other casualties gave. In signing up, he gave away a lot more than the others had.

Think about John Kerry. Kerry signed up and went to Viet Nam. He didn't have to, he could have joined the Mass Air National Guard, I'm sure. But he didn't, he put his ass on the line and went. That's what makes him so much more special then Crusader Bunnypants. Bush "served" in the military, in a way to keep him out of harm's way. Kerry sucked it up and joined the Navy, then sucked it up more and went to Viet Nam, and then sucked it up even more and got put into the Brownwater Navy. For that he deserves to be honored.


Service without sacrifice is service. Service WITH sacrifice is more.

Every other casualty signed up and gave their lives. Tillman signed up, gave up a very sucessful career to do it, and gave his life.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. There were other well-to-do people who gave up everything
but they didn't get killed.

Tillman is portrayed as more of a hero because he was a celebrity who turned down a multi-million football contract. Someone who turned down a multi-million dollar business from his father, on the other hand, got no publicity at all.

Why not? Because he wasn't a sports celebrity.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Are you speaking of somebody in particular?
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 06:10 AM by DoNotRefill
or just blowing smoke?

Tillman didn't INHERIT anything. He worked his ass off to get where he was. Then he threw it all away to do what he thought was right.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. I am speaking of someone in particular.
A very good businessman who died in Iraq, and he was local.

He worked his ass off to get where he was.

He got lucky, just like most other sports contracts (or business successes). It's about right place, right time, and since he was lucky and a celebrity, his death was "newsworthy," whilst everyone else who has died in the middle east isn't "worthy of coverage" beyond ticking up the daily casualty number. At least if you follow the media's point of view.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Did the businessman join up after 9/11?
Did the businessman forfeit his business to serve? Or did the businessman leave his business in the hands of somebody to take care of it and continue to make him money?

I disagree with you that "being lucky" is the most important part of being an athlete at that level. The guy busted his ass to suceed. It was much more than luck.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. The businessman lost his business and left the money with his family
I disagree with you that "being lucky" is the most important part of being an athlete at that level.

It absolutely is luck. For every open slot, there are 100 qualified people. It's right place, right time as much as it is capabilities.

But you're still ignoring my fundamental point, which is that MONEY is not any more important than FAMILY, and many people work harder for their families and value them more than some bank account. Further, this isn't just about money since others who gave up money didn't get any attention.

Finally, it's unlikely he'd have lost out. After his tour of duty, he'd have gotten any athletic contract he wanted -- the publicity would have been phenomenal. If someone lost his family as a result, though, it's unlikely he'd have gotten those back as easily.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Right...
being 4 years older, and in much worse physical condition than he was when he left, he'd have been able to write his own ticket as a professional athlete, a field which is predominated by the young and is 100% performance driven. SUUUUUURE.

You're ignoring MY point. Money and family isn't an either/or situation. Tillman gave up BOTH. No play, no paycheck. He couldn't hire a substitute to manage his family business. And he had a family.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Like I said earlier. . .
. . . I am sorry that some people like yourself don't believe that other folks who lost everything in those two conflicts deserve recognition. I, for one, happen to believe everyone who lost out over there deserves recognition, not just sports stars.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. But you seem to be focusing alot of venom at America and Americans
You've called the public disgusting. Well, it's not as if the UK is less celebrity obsessed. The #1 paper here is USA today. In the UK, it's a tabloid.

And I've never seen a post of yours criticizing the lack of coverage for casualties. Your post was directed at Tillman. You didn't call it a double standard. You called it a spectacle. Clearly implying an overabundance of coverage and undeserved. Once again, it's perfectly legitimate to complain about lack of coverage for other casualties, but you have never done that that I've seen.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I am an American
So I'd appreciate you keeping your silly national disputes in check.

And I've never seen a post of yours criticizing the lack of coverage for casualties

Because you haven't been looking for such. You're just looking for a reason to to be "outraged."

Your post was directed at Tillman. You didn't call it a double standard. You called it a spectacle.

My post wasn't directed at Tillman, but oh well. I won't deny you your false outrage and chest thumping, etc.

The spectacle is indeed a double-standard. Nobody else has gotten near the coverage that Tillman did, including other self-made men (and WOMEN) who enlisted to go off and were killed.

The ONLY reason the media has picked this story is because of Tillman's celebrity status.

Hey, I don't decry the guy a thing. I think what he did was brave -- but no more or less brave and honourable than those who left a family or a life behind and came back in a flag-covered casket the Bushites don't want us to see.

This emphasis on the MONEY he turned down is also dehumanizing. It's saying "he gave up more than others" because he turned down millions while other people only gave up their families (which is presumed to be not that big a sacrifice).
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
17. Coverage

In addition to the other comments in support of Tillman here, let
me add that, according to all reports, he never did interviews or
publicity stunts after enlisting (and I suspect the Pentagon would
have LOVED to use him in recruitment advertising). One commentator
today said that the one thing Tillman would NOT have wanted after
he died in conflict was exactly the number of news stories about it
that were generated today.

In addition, much like the * misadministration has confused the
war in Afghanistan and the hunt for Al Quida with the war in Iraq,
there appear to be people here doing the same thing. Whatever you
may think of our warlord allies in the Afghan war, the Taliban were
worse... and they did harbor a very bad terror group... which HAS
struck the US before. Invading Afghanistan was the only response
possible and it was almost universally supported. The prosecution
of that war was / is highly flawed, we depended way too much on the
so called Northern Alliance, we bombed the shit out of things and tried to make this a "shock and awe" Rumsfeldian war... and in
the process, missed over 50 percent of Al Quida and the Taliban, including the leaders.
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Brian_Expat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. The fact of the matter remains. . .
. . . if he wasn't a football star, the media wouldn't have covered his sacrifice. If he'd given up a multi-million dollar business or other job, his death wouldn't have garnered any attention at all.

The ONLY reason the media covered this was over celebrity. Period. End of story.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
32. Yes, I don't think I said anything that disagrees with that.

And so what.

I *want* the press to cover each and every death. Especially from
Iraq. The more coverage, no matter what patriotic emotions of
the moment when the coverage occurs, over the long run seeps into
the soul of every person... we will lose the national will to
sustain the war effort and withdraw... and after 20 years go by,
maybe make peace with the region again.

So if they make a big production out of Tillman, that's great.
And let's restart the draft too... with no deferments or exemptions.

As long as this is a war of numbers (5 nameless mostly minority or
people of disadvantaged economic background soldiers died today in
what was described as a blah blah blah)... the good folks (I hate
the term sheeple) here in the US will continue to support the war
that * created. If its a war of pictures and stories and family
interviews and folks from the country club having to go to the funeral
of a members son or daughter... then there will not be this war.
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. I understand your point my friend
the US media needs a trophy subject like this young mans story to feed the gawking masses. Kind of like that soccer player and that singer in the UK, its visceral, its simple. The objectification of the issue replaces the importance of the subject matter, so one really does not have to think about it.

I direct you to this months Harpers's and the excellent, brillant editorial by Louis Lapham. Read it, twice.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
42. yes i agree
he did what he wanted to do and he died. now the press goes on about how he gave up all the money,blah,blah...according to some he should have taken the money and not done what he thought was right for him. he chose to go because he thought it was the right thing to do. he paid with his life he is just another soldier who died for what he believed in, he`s following in the footsteps of millions before him.
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justsam Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
37. I agree, Tillman had
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 06:41 AM by justsam
it all and chose to go out of some sort of guilt,because his GD and brother served, what about the thousands that signed up just to get money for a college education, the government is pissed because their coffins are being showed, the repubs will turn this killing into some sort of campaign in their favor yet. With all Tilmans money and fame, he could have done more for the country if he had stood up against the Iraq war instead of condoning it, although he was KIA in Afgan.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
38. because when war mongers refuse to serve themselves
when war mongers refuse to serve themselves and love to attack those who oppose war as being unpatriotic and all that crap, tillman stands out as being a much better person. personally i'm not sitting around crying over this. i didn't know who he was i don't watch football. but the fact that he himself decided to serve rather than be like those chickenhawks is something to admire. of course he knew he could die. but it's not about him dying there in itself. and people on du DO often cry for americans, iraqis, afghans, etc who die in these wars.
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freetobegay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
40. He also chose not to talk to the media about it
when he enlisted to avoid celebrity status, he also chose to throw away a multi million dollar career to do something he believes in.

"Why no tears over the hundreds of people who enlisted", thats just disingenuous, who says there aren't any tears?

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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
41. Let's flesh it out a little ..
The WH is announcing that THIS family is in their "prayers". Did the media make them do that?

I don't follow football. Though, I have been keeping an eye on the uptick of human casualties on the planet over the past few years (or at least that perception - I have no statistics). Death is selling these days. And it costs a LOT financially AND morally. It is a very expensive proposition in every way.

He was a member of an elite force, The Army Rangers. If news reports are true, he most likely was involved in this effort ...
Operation Enduring Freedom, Afghanistan

So far, I haven't seen any details on how he lost his life. There are a lot of ways to die in a war. This thread has mentioned several times, that "he went over there and died"... That characterization makes me a little uneasy. I have no doubt that during the past two years of service, he did many heroic feats. As all who serve do. They become even more heroic when you think about the mismanagement from the top down in the entire WWOT. The fearless leaders don't offer up a lot of *winning* strategies, from what I've been reading.

The media is going to be covering what they are *allowed* to cover. There were several news site's polls today that indicated about a third of the (poll) voting population thinks that's just fine.

Do you intend to come off as holding the *media* solely responsible for the "spectacle", if that's what it is. I've come to consider our daily existence on this plane of existence at this time in history as pretty much a SPECTACLE to top all spectacles.
Large Hurricanes tend to send off smaller twisters.

I'm not sure what crocodile tears you are referring to. If this loss brings up a few tears, it's all to the good. We should be crying about sh*t like this.

It isn't the disease, it is yet another symptom. The disease appears to be terminal.

From the following snips you can see that hypocrisy dances around this issue. The forked-tongue we have become so accustomed to.

<snips> emphasis added
President George W. Bush stood behind the Pentagon's order to prohibit any media coverage of the return of fallen US soldiers in Iraq.

"In all of this, we must pay attention to the privacy and to the sensitivity of the families of the fallen . . . and that has to be the utmost concern," said Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman.

More than 700 US soldiers have been killed in Iraq since the conflict began.
Financial Times

The 27-year-old soldier, who quit his National Football League career in May 2002, is the most prominent American public figure killed in fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Pentagon and the Army, in keeping with a law passed by Congress that forbids the military from identifying casualties until 24 hours after their deaths, refused comment on the report.

However, the White House said Tillman's family was in the prayers of President George W Bush.
smh.com.au

"Pat Tillman was an inspiration on and off the football field, as with all who have made the ultimate sacrifice in the war on terror. His family is in the thoughts and prayers of President and Mrs. Bush," said a White House spokesman, Taylor Gross.

Enlisting with his brother, Kevin, in the wake of the 2001 attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center, Tillman turned down a $3.6 million contract from the Arizona Cardinals to become an Army Ranger for an annual salary of $18,000.
reuters uk

What's Wrong With This Picture?
Saturday, April 24, 2004; Page A20

It would have been intrusive and disrespectful to have made public any photos of our wounded soldiers in transit to the United States {front page, April 23}. But photographs of unidentified flag-draped caskets? I see no disrespect or offense here.

With a universal draft policy no longer in effect, for an entire class of citizens, especially those inside the Beltway, this war is far from home and from our loved ones. Perhaps such pictures are necessary to remind us all what is really happening in Iraq. Perhaps this is why the present administration is trying to keep this reality from us.
LTTE WA Post {may have to register}


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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #41
52. Nice research, thank you. The WH hypocrisy
on the entire issue comes shining through in every link.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #52
75. Thanks.. It has become their trademark -
look for the logo on every "product". ;)
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PoliticalHoodlum Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
44. Tillman's heroicism was unspeakably sublime--approaching divinity
You got a 25-year-old guy with hollywood good looks, turning down a $3.6 million NFL contract with all its accompanying fame, admiration of women, and the good life. He refused all interviews and publicity after his announcement. He did it all with extreme humility.
He gives all this up in the service of others. He goes to an area of absolutely NO luxury, just filth, starkness, extreme heat, extreme discomfort, and extreme danger.
He 'had it all' in the material sense....then gave it all up for something he believed
How INCREDIBLY rare is this in this narcissistic society in which we live? I mean it just doesn't happen.
Tillman's action is closest thing to Jesus' life I have ever seen. I am honestly speechless.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. The u.s. is a militaristic nation
if you want proof you just have to read some of the threads here.

A guy gives up a multi-million contract doing something vaguely harmless, so he can volunteer to fight in a bush* oil grab war, and he ends up getting killed. What a jerk.

PoliticalHoodlum's post can only be satire, it's not possible to be this stupid.
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PoliticalHoodlum Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Tillman wasn't in Iraq; he was in Afghanistan
fighting Al-Queda. This wasn't the 'grab-for-oil' war. It was the fight- terrorism-war. The one we all supported back in 2001. Remember?
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Didn't support Afghan war sorry
'cause it was the mental processes that you could see working behind it that lead to this shit in Iraq. It wasn't a good idea anyway.

If he is in Afghanistan then he is freeing up a troop that can then serve in Iraq, so he is just as culpable as far as I am concerned.
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PoliticalHoodlum Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. With that logic
I guess you'd say the taxpayers are culpable since we finance the war in Iraq. Sorry, Skippy. Your extrapolation doesn't wash.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #53
59. And the rest of the world hates just the u.s. army
does it ??
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. Get your facts straight before you drag him through the mud.
Tillman fought in Afghanistan; he enlisted specifically to fight against Al-Qaeda.

He was very intelligent; I am doubtful he would have enlisted to fight in Iraq.

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PoliticalHoodlum Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Well said
Sadly some folks just go for the convenient knee-jerk reaction instead of thinking things through. There ARE such things as heroes.
I guess its far easier to sit our your ass and slam people.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. I said it above
he's in Afghanistan, somebody else can be in Iraq.

You really do worship the fucking military over there. It's no wonder the planet got flushed down the tubes.

Tillman is a complete fucking dork. If that annoys all your god damn conditioned reflexs then great.
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PoliticalHoodlum Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. I approve of retaliation in Afghanistan against the perpetrators of 9-11.
as do most Americans. Perhaps you're afraid to defend yourself. Or perhaps it's just jealousy of genuine heroes like Tilley. I don't know.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Possibly another explanation
is that I'm European (ex-british) and I hate right-wing arseholes screwing my planet up.

Tillman is still an arsehole.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. How difficult is it going to be to beat the shit
that this planet is being turned into, if the left-wing buy into the same sort of mindlees garbage that the right-wing are using to control the thinking of the u.s. population.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #54
70. Excuse me?
he's in Afghanistan, somebody else can be in Iraq.

How does the above comment make any sense?

How about, if "somebody else" wasn't in Ira*, they could be in Afghanistan taking care of Job #1. Even if you don't agree with the Afghan action, soldiers being there do NOT make it possible for others to fight in Ira*. OTOH instead of taking care of the business that MOST OF THE WORLD, if not you, agreed needed to be done, resources are being diverted for some nebulous, ill-conceived, power intoxicated killing spree in a neighboring country.

It has nothing to do with worshiping the military. You are certainly entitled to your viewpoint. Just realize it is illogical as stated.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #46
64. Yes it is, just look at *your* post.
and all the rest of them in this thread by you.

Your post ain't nothing but shit.

RL
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #44
72. "Tillman's action is closest thing to Jesus' life I have ever seen"
I was just thinking that the way things were going, people were going to equate him to GOD.

If you think this is the closest thing to Jesus' life, you need to read the Bible. Jesus isn't know for joining armies and killing people.

Tillman's self-chosen "martyrdom" combined with his celebrityhood make him worshipped by millions.

But that just shows how sick (and contrived) our society is, IMO.

Sell more beer.


:argh:
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dawn Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
74. Um....
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 02:42 PM by dawn
While I think Tillman's actions are admirable, I'd hardly compare him to Jesus.

Then again, in today's war-hungry America, where Bush is seen as God, I can see why you'd come to that conclusion.

Jesus had much more in common with people like Gandhi than Tillman.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
45. Tillman looked clinically depressed to me..
The look in his eye in his military photo screamed "death wish".
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #45
58. I think there might have been something there that played a part as well.
I read where in football practice the coaches had to convince him not to hurt his teammates.

People don't want to hear it, but SOME people join the military because it is THE socially acceptable way to hurt(and kill) people. Get outraged all you want, but I personally know someone who was depressed and signed up because he wanted to kill to get his anger out. And he did.

Some people want to believe that the military and the soldiers and what they are doing is perfect and beyond reproach. Well, that is just denial.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #58
67. Yes, I saw unrequited anger in his eyes..
Anger turned to blind hatred that couldn't be turned off.

Robotic, if you will-
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #45
63. Bullshit.
EOM
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #45
71. Most psychiatrists make important diagnoses from still photographs
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 10:26 AM by AngryAmish
The modern trend in psychiatry is not to see or speak with a patient, especially when one is dealing with a potentially life-threatening disease like clinical depression.

I was so happy when my oncologist cleared me of having cancer by looking at my old shoes that I mailed to him. No need to bother having any tests done or even going to his office.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
48. If Tillman's death did nothing else, it DID remind the hypFAUXtized
that we are still fighting in that other country, what is it? Right on the tip--don't tell me...

Oh, yeah, Afghanistan.

Tell me, what is the last news you heard out of there before this? Just give me a simple topic and I'll be satisfied.

Every last one of them are heroes; this bitterness doesn't help them a bit.
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Snellius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
55. "Forget it. It's Hollywood, Jake."
America, where everything is show business.
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
56. Tons of respect for him
No need to post about it.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
57. pro athletes are gods in this country.
Edited on Sat Apr-24-04 09:34 AM by kodi
his death in afghanistan has been the only one where i saw several minutes of prime time tv devoted to the life of a fallen soldier.

but, what about the lives of the other 700 plus men and woman who died in iraq and afghanistan? were their lives less worthy of mention?

apparently so if the media is a gauge.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
60. I think it's not so much Tillman as it is what he represents.
A good man by all accounts, who tried to do his patriotic duty in George Bush's America and died as a result of the hostile conditions Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld created.

What would have been the outcome if our troops weren't wasted in Iraq, but instead focused on eliminating the Al Quaeda threat in Afghanistan? By most legitimate accounts from military analysts, we put all of our troops in Afghanistan at risk by not sending them enough manpower and equipment.

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ethereal Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #60
68. I Still Mourn His Death
He deserves just as much accolade and pride and mourning as any other of our brave men and women who have died in Af and Iraq.

If anything, it publicizes even more the fact that Bush lied and people died. No way to sweep this one under the rug.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
69. He did exactly what he wanted to do.
Many others did what they had to do lacking a viable choice. The football player's service to the country is certainly honorable but I personally feel a lot more sympathy for those who were more or less forced into the military by a job-destroying, job-outsourcing, minimum wage society and then forced into an illegal war by a clueless fucking unelected moron.
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