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Terrorism is a frame of mind. How do you change a frame of mind?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:13 PM
Original message
Terrorism is a frame of mind. How do you change a frame of mind?
By force? By war? Can we actually kill a frame of mind? To defeat terrorism, we have to defeat the frame of minds that foster terrorism.
Hate, anger, poverty, humiliation, despair all make up the mindframe that gives birth to terrorism. Simply killing individuals that use terrorism to kill us is not the solution. That would only foster more hate and anger in those that do not presently have the terrorist mindframe. The Bush Administration is tilting at windmills. They are fighting the wrong enemies.
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's where I think Kerry missed it on MTP
I watched (most of) it this morning and when Russert challenged him on the comment about fighting terrorism with Intelligence, law enforcement and military force, I felt Kerry's explanation was too long and too nuanced for the average 'mericun to figure out.

But you hit the heart of the issue in your post.

War is against nations. Terrorism is an idea (or state of mind) You can only defeat terrorism by defeating the idea as well as the criminals. Terrorism is stateless and using military force against a stateless enemy is inefficient and counter-productive.

Kerry needs to make this point in order to make his positions contrast with Dubya.

As usual....a great post Kentuck......
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. ewagner, we are trying to help them out the best we know how...
We can only hope they read other things than the NYTimes and the Wall St Journal. I have many great ideas on DU and other web sites. I'm hoping they research these to help with the explanations they need to give to the 'Murican people....

By the way, great minds think alike. :)
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Obviously we should shoot more civilians.
Nothing frightens suicide bombers more then shooting innocent people in completely different countries.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. Education is a great weapon
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 04:22 PM by 9215
against terror, poverty, ignorance.

Compared to the costs of fighting a new generation of
terrorists, putting 100 million kids in school around
the world is an inexpensive proposition.

William Clinton, 2002


Bush's tactics are meant to increase terror because, IMO, he knows, as do many neo-cons, that the only way he will be able to stay in power is to militarize the world: to make it a dangerous place that requires dictatorial rule.

The solution to terror is really quite simple if there is a genuine interest in ending it.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Yes. Education is the key.
Education creates self-empowerment which reduces the hopelessness that breeds terrorists.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Yep, The more educated you are the more money you make. It is a
documented, irrefutable fact. Over the years I see more and more how vital education was and is to my quality of life in so many ways.

We could solve the problem of terrorism quickly IMO if Clintons ideas were incorporated into our foreign policy.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Yep. Money can be a GOOD thing.
It sure beats poverty.
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Zinfandel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. Stop watching TV news and listening to Bush/Cheney/Rove & CO propaganda!
Fear is what these fascist are all about...keep the masses in fear and you've got control...
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. Force coupled with humanitarianism
You have to destroy the heads of the terrorist organizations. They simply understand nothing less. At the same time, you have to build up the areas they recruit from. You have to try to help educate their people, try to provide some sort of health care program, and keep introducing some of the ideas that make our economic system the envy of the world
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. um..........Pyro
I hate to burst your bubble but our exonomic system is NOT "the envy of the world".
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Then why do we need border patrols to keep people out?
???
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Because $5.15 an hour is better than $1 per hour and....
...we are closer than Europe. It would be a long swim since they don't have the money to buy a ticket on a luxury liner. But I would agree that the opportunity to make money is probably more important to these people than any of our freedoms or other amenities that we proclaim are so great....
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. It isn't just Mexico where they come from
A lot come from India, Southeast Asia, and Eastern Europe.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Only China is significant, most are latinos
Mexico is the largest source country for unauthorized immigration to the United States. The estimated unauthorized resident population from Mexico increased from about 2.0 million in 1990 to 4.8 million in January 2000. Mexicos share of the total unauthorized resident population increased from 58 percent in 1990 to 69 percent in 2000. In addition to Mexico, six countries had more than 100,000 unauthorized residents in the United States in January 2000 --El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, and Ecuador.
The new estimates are based primarily on the foreign-born population counted in the 2000 Census and annual INS statistics (immigrants admitted, deportable aliens removed, and nonimmigrant residents)

http://uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/200...
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. we exploit the entire world to live the way we do
the fact that people do what they have to do to provide for their families does NOT mean they "envy us". They f***ing despise us.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. They despise America, yet they would do anything to live here?
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 08:58 PM by Pyrogen
Sure. That makes great sense. Look. The only thing they despise is that their inferior governmental systems force them to live in filth and squalor while even the poorest of Americans live like kings compared to them. They despise the fact that they don't have what we have. Period.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. you don't understand
wanting what we have is one thing; understanding how we attain it is ANOTHER.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. And when you make a martyr of their leaders....?
How do you repair that damage? Does that make what you are trying to do that much more difficult? Put yourself in their sandals.
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Pyrogen Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. If their leaders are terrorist thugs, you don't spare anybody's feelings
But you do try to insulate against future terrorists by the aforesaid educational and humanitarian programs.
But first things first. You've got to handle the immediate situation or you may not get the chance to be humanitarian later
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. But one persons' "terrorist thug" is another persons' "freedom fighter"...
Yeah, to you Yasser Arafat is probably a terrorist thug but to many Palestinians, he is a hero and a brave freedom fighter.
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9215 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. Pyro you should check out the French movie "The Battle of Algiers"
It is the best film I have ever seen on terrorism and the fallacy of trying to beat it with force. All of the terrorist "cells" were wiped out but the French were booted out by a mass uprising of the populace who disregarded the French Army firing at them and attacked anyway. What the Algierians knew was that they were going to be exterminated anyway so they fought as anyone would who has no choice. IMO that is what is happening in Iraq. The people are coming to the realization that Bush is NOT working to democratize Iraq, like his poppy never did care about democracy in Kuwait once it was "liberated".

The movie was made in 1966 and banned in France.
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. To defeat terrorism, feed empty stomachs.
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Snoggera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Terrorism is a frame of reference
Who is the terrorist and who is the liberator is a matter of perspective.

When will people learn that one country, having a leader that initiates pre-emptive death by bombing, shooting, or in the long run, by depleted uranium, is no different from a country of people responding to this by the only methods they have available?

What does it take for one to drive a car into a building and kill not only others but himself? It is a choice not entered into lightly. The US would have others laugh at the idea of "71 Virgins" and other reasons, but these are only diversions. What would it take for you to kill yourself in defense of your country? This would be, of course, after years of watching your fellow countrymen and women and children being murdered; shot, raped, stabbed. This after years of not being allowed to express your opinion in normal international channels because your country is deemed, and therefore your people, NOT TO EVEN EXIST.
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eaprez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
11. Poverty and Hopelessness
..are the enemies. We should be working to help uplift these countries and peoples. Being of course respectful and mindful of their cultures. They have every right to reject American culture and business peddling that culture into their lives....that doesn't mean we can't help uplift them. We have so much more to offer besides Coca-cola and McDonalds....however, the evil side of America is that everything is seen in terms of profit and loss rather than us acting as part of the global community. Our vast wealth could do more to help stabalize these countries than our military might ever will.
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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. war on terror?
A war on terror makes as much sense (and is as likely to succeed) as a war to rid the world of jealousy.

I was going to say "rid the world of happiness" but * is doing a bang-up job of that actually.
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sspiderjohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Leave their countries; let THEM reap the profits from THEIR oil.
And they'll leave us alone.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. Social and Economic justice.
Lack of these is what brings about terrorism.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
16. One cannot legislate attitudes, one can only try to change them...
Let's see how successful we have been in the past, shall we? After all, we no longer have any remnants of racial prejudice in the US (or so my students tell me), and women have equality with men (the second wave feminists made sure of that), so attitudes have changed completely since the 1950s, right? OK, sarcasm off now. The key to terrorism, as I see it, is to listen first, and speak second. What are the real issues that divide people to the point that they want to kill large numbers of innocent people? Have we, as the US, finally made the point to many of the other nations of the world, that we are not worth trying to reason with? Is it now the mindset that Americans only understand blows to their economy and mass destruction? Our history demonstrates that we do not often respond favorably or readily to social change, or to new ideas. Alexis de Toqueville made the statement: "...in America there are many readers, but very few thinkers". He was referring to the popularity of western comic books, which were numerous in his day (1831), and the lack of interest in more serious pursuits. We did not respond to the racial inequity in this country until people started to demonstrate and march for civil rights. We couldn't be bothered to investigate women's rights until the myth was circulated that women were burning their bras; now, THAT got our attention.
The terrorists are obviously getting our attention now, but it took a major attack in the US, with resultant loss of life to accomplish this. What does that say about us as a nation?
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
24. Terrorism is a tactic
you can no more have a war against terror
than a war against artillery barrages or carpet bombing

you can however conduct operations against people
who use terrorism as a tactic ..

but Bu$h is too G*ddamn dum to do that ...
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RightO Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
25. No matter what
No matter what anyone may think. Democracy and capitalism has raised the standard of living for the people living in those societies. This is the key to helping eradicate terrorism. There will always be crazies out there that will do what they can to destroy anything they disagree with. Look at the Oklahoma City bombing, but at least it won't be a whole large group of people willing to do it.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. But we don't have to have democracy to have capitalism....
Look at China....
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
31. Wise post
Physician...heal thyself.

We need to fix the injustice that comes out from this country before we have a hope in h3ll that we will ever be free of terrorism. As long as this country is the source of exploitation in the world, we will be breeding terrorists.

go kerry
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
33. with kindness of course why do you think "they" hate us
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 10:23 PM by corporatewhore
I kinda agree with mr.carlos latuff why sept.11 happened
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