Factor head plants on DU

[TimMooring]

They always run to drag up that "USA is Nazi Germany" crap. I don't mind free expression - but I think its important that people be cognizant of what is going on.

[movonne]

1. What is going on????

[TimMooring]

2. Trying to make making democrats look like extremist idiots (nt)

[Octafish]

45. The Truth hurts. The right-wing got that way with NAZI power.

Here's some background for you:

CIA's Worst-Kept Secret

By Martin A. Lee
May 16, 2001

"Honest and idealist ... enjoys good food and wine ... unprejudiced mind..."

That's how a 1952 Central Intelligence Agency assessment described Nazi ideologue Emil Augsburg, an officer at the infamous Wannsee Institute, the SS think tank involved in planning the Final Solution. Augsburg's SS unit performed "special duties," a euphemism for exterminating Jews and other "undesirables" during the Second World War.

Although he was wanted in Poland for war crimes, Augsburg managed to ingratiate himself with the U.S. CIA, which employed him in the late 1940s as an expert on Soviet affairs.

Recently released CIA records indicate that Augsburg was among a rogue's gallery of Nazi war criminals recruited by U.S. intelligence shortly after Germany surrendered to the Allies.

Pried loose by Congress, which passed the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act three years ago, a long-hidden trove of once-classified CIA documents confirms one of the worst-kept secrets of the Cold War – the CIA's use of an extensive Nazi spy network to wage a clandestine campaign against the Soviet Union.

The CIA reports show that U.S. officials knew they were subsidizing numerous Third Reich veterans who had committed horrible crimes against humanity, but these atrocities were overlooked as the anti-Communist crusade acquired its own momentum. For Nazis who would otherwise have been charged with war crimes, signing on with American intelligence enabled them to avoid a prison term.

CONTINUED...

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/051601a.html

Please read what Russ Belant wrote:

"Old Nazis, the New Right and the Republican Party" back in 1991 when it was revealed the fascists the CIA brought over after WW2 were working fist-in-rubber glove with the Right Wing to help Reagan and then Bush. Hence many DUers refer to them as the "Reich Wing." Clever, huh?

http://www.publiceye.org/bellant/old_nazis.html

Then, for more info and links, I recommend checking out:

http://www.hermes-press.com/nazification_step3.htm

It's no joke. The neo-confederates are fascist loving NAZI scum.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. You look pretty extreme to me, but that's just my opinion.

[LeahMira]

142. Neither extremist nor idiots...

Of course the US is not like Nazi Germany in the 1940s. Still, Germany did not get the way it was in the 1940s overnight. The treatment of people who are Arab and/or Islamic in the US is not unlike the treatment of people who were Jewish in Germany in the 1930s. The appeal to American "patriotism" and American "values" is not unlike the appeal to German "heroic" myth in the early 1930s. We have seen the pattern of the way things progress, and without a determined effort to prevent a similar pattern from going forward in the US it will be only too easy for the US to become even more like Nazi Germany given time. There is no reason to think that it couldn't happen here. It can happen anywhere.

[wtmusic]

3. The US IS becoming a fascist state. Have you read the papers lately?

[TimMooring]

6. Do you want to win in Nov?

Would you suggest that "USA is Nazi Germany" be written into our platform?

[wtmusic]

You decide

http://www.thomhartmann.com/democracyfailed.shtml

[Cleita]

14. What we are saying is the PNAC conservatives who have

taken over our government and the GOP are a bunch of fascists. Go to their own website. Read what they say and then look at the list of names of who are involved. The only thing missing on their website is the swastika.

[TimMooring]

20. you're preaching to the choir. (nt)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. That's very odd...you tell us not to post certain things on certain...

...subjects, but then try to tell us that you agree with our point of view.

Very odd.

[0007]

136. Who's preaching to the choir??????

How come you wait until now to give us this insight Tim? Man, where in the hell have you been?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

46. If what someone writes...

on an internet board with less than 50,000 members -- be they disruptor or genuine DUer -- has any measurable impact on the election in 2004, then I'll eat my nastiest socks.

You're very new here, so I'll clue you in that yours is just another in a v-e-r-y long line of "shut up or people will think we're crazy" posts this site has seen over the years.

Don't talk about PNAC -- they'll think were crazy!
Don't talk about LIHOP or MIHOP -- they'll think we're crazy!
Don't talk about BBV -- they'll think we're crazy!
Don't say Bush is like Hitler -- they'll think we're crazy! (Sorry, you're not the first to throw that one out.)
Don't talk about Saddam's "capture" being staged -- they'll think we're crazy!
Don't talk about a possible October surprise -- they think we're crazy!

Okay, old-timers, did I leave any out??

I view this as a message board.

A message board NOT associated with the Democratic Party.

A message board where frustrated folks come to vent, get news, argue, and present ideas. Including some crazy ass shit that would make most peoples heads spin.

But I often wonder who is the real disruptor? The person screaming "USA is Nazi Germany" or the person telling that person to "shut up"?

Impossible to tell....

[TimMooring]

50. I'm not asking anyone to shutup

Just not to distort the truth. As to you point about the number of members - there's more than one way that site content can be made public from private conversation to email to radio programs to cut-and-paste. My entire point about plants who do not really believe what they're posting. I think anyone would have to be a little naive not to believe that this happens.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. It's only YOUR opinion that the truth is being distorted....

...and as far as "plants" are concerned, you're making a pretty good case for yourself, IMHO.

[TimMooring]

102. You decide - I can only suggest that you try to be rational (nt)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

72. Why don't you tell us what to do?....

You seem to be very good at that.

[mmonk]

4. I was thinking more in the lines of Imperial Rome

with German style propaganda, fear, and use of religion to fuel anger.

[TimMooring]

7. Even more rediculous (nt)

[RainDog]

10. more like Kaiser Wilhelm Germany

and his foot-stamping..."I will too have an empire, I will too!"

...and he drove his country into a world war which ended his empire.

...after going through the shithouse that was Hitler.

[TimMooring]

13. I think you're missing the point.

Can you spell S*T*R*A*T*E*G*Y ???

[RainDog]

25. No, I'm venting

but, fwiw, I remember quite well last year when a man in my town who has served in WW2 was talking about the Bush administration and he, who has never been on a website, who has never been politically active, as far as I know, just blurted out that what the Bush junta was doing is just like what went on after the Reichstag fire.

In addition, another man I deal with at work, who is also retired and who was a Republican until Reagan, is incensed at what he has seen the Republican Party become.

He, too, finds comparisons with Germany valid.

Then there's that conservative guy, Kevin Phillips, who wrote that
book, American Dynasty, who became an independent when Bush took office.

He doesn't seem to think that the Republicans in power quite understand what it means to be a representative democracy, either.

So, I understand your warning, but at the same time, it is ludicrous to think that DU is the only place with people who think that the Republicans have abandoned republicanism for fascism.

[TimMooring]

32. Lets's do something about it

Believe me I feel like venting sometimes too.

[RainDog]

39. You use your energy better

if you go out and register people who are not registered, and letting people know who have been laid off what is going on in the Bush administration,

rather than trying to get people who are slavishly devoted to a tv personality to think for themselves.

sure it can be done.

After Bush stole the white house in 2000, I got a big education because I was so disgusted with the failure of democracy that the Jebbie/Scalia coup represented.

One thing Bush has done for me, and thank you, George, is to move me further from the middle toward a total rejection of any republican.

Bush has destroyed that party, along with the fundamentalists who back him. They are the real dangers to democracy in this country, but I doubt you will ever get any of them to see this, even if you present them with evidence.

[muriel_volestrangler]

143. Quite a good comparison

and one I'm surprised I haven't heard of before, now you mention it.

There is the similarity of countries with significant industrial power, in the hands of people ready to use their military build up for international gain. The figurehead leader is also enthusiastic for an empire, but may not really be in control. But neither country has the complete racism and hatred that the Nazis had.

There are some differences - the Kaiser's Germany was trying to overtake Britain and France as an empire, where the USA is already the most powerful country in the world.

[mmonk]

12. Then how about an empire of bases

for global military and economic hegemony and also using the "Securing the Rhealm" approach of Pearle? I would love an offer of proof dismissing those.

[TimMooring]

It's called NAC.

We all know that.

[bicentennial_baby]

22. Yep, read The Sorrows of Empire

by Chalmers Johnson. It's all 'bout that.

[TimMooring]

35. Thanks I'll look for it (nt)

[Kool Kitty]

79. I believe that Woodward referred to Imperial Rome

on "60 Minutes" tonight. Something about our government building an embassy in Baghdad that will be the biggest in the world, which made Mike Wallace say, "Like the Roman empire?" Woodward replied, "Yes." So that comment about the government seeming like Imperial Rome may not be too far off the mark. Sounds pretty likely to me.

[Cleita]

26. Rome is a good example. As a matter-of-fact, much of German

facism was borrowed from Rome. It's no coincidence that the Kaiser stood for Caesar and the eagle was one of their emblems. Hitler didn't pull facism out of a hat, he already had a model there. Germany was a democracy only from WWI to the rise of Hitler and many Germans longed for the days of the monarchy again when the Weimar Republic couldn't handle all that was thrown at them. Nazis seemed to be an answer to many Germans.

We have the same here. White people who long for the good old days personified by Ward and June Cleaver, or Ozzie and Harriett, when you didn't get questioned about your guns,women kept their mouths shut and did the cooking and cleaning, gay people were in the closet and all you needed to conduct your life was the Bible. Yes, the PNAC offered them all of that and that disgusting liberal, Bill Clinton, on a silver impeachment platter.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TimMooring]

8. And your point is? (nt)

[RapidCreek]

92. My point is

Cleverly keeping your mouth shut when the SS is hauling your neighbor off for a train ride and a Zyklon B shower is doing nothing to prevent it from happening....It is tantamount to complicity. There is a reason the Jews say of those days "Never Forget". The sad fact is is that quite a few Americans have forgotten....and they've been allowed to forget because of people like you. It won't go away if you ignore it. It might go into remission for a while but it won't go away. It needs to be identified for what it is and violently stamped into the dirt.

I will compare the Bush Regime to that of Hitler...because it is frighteningly similar...both in it's practices and in it's goals. I'll scream it from the roof tops....it's my duty as a patriotic American.

What you suggest is akin to sitting next to a guy in a theater who throughout the show attempted to set a fires which you dutifully put out and failing to tell the cops about the fucker because of fear that you might not be believed. It's akin to catching aids from someone who knew they had it and saying nothing to the next person he seeks to infect because you wouldn't want to seem like a malcontent. No this lack of action is neither prudent or moral....it is wrong. It is chickenshit.

RC

[TimMooring]

98. You're so off base that it's laughable

Your duty as a patriotic American is to wake up from a delusional vision of the U.S. as nazi Germany and recognize that the mega-corporations' plan for America is not different from their plans for the rest of the world. These companies got to where they are in the fullness of time. Another "Perfect Storm" if you will. It's an issue that we must face directly and with clear vision.

[RapidCreek]

116. Am I?

I suppose the same could be said of Nazi Germany. The corporations running it got where they got in the fullness of time and their plan for Germany was no different from their plan for the rest of the world. So what is your point? Did the Jews face their predicament directly and with clear vision? No, they did not...they followed a course of action similar to that which you advocate. They rationalized their acquiescence until it was to damn late and they paid the ultimate price. Failing to call a spade a spade is not facing a situation directly...nor is it confronting it with clear vision.

Thanks for making my argument for me.

RC

[TimMooring]

118. stretching is good for you I recommend yoga. (nt)

[RapidCreek]

125. Wow

another quixotic attempt to demostrate what you mistakenly percieve to be superior intellect.

How pathetic.

RC

[TimMooring]

130. I bow to your omniscience (nt)

[RapidCreek]

141. Well lacking anything of more substance, I guess that'll have to suffice.

RC

[RainDog]

9. LOL

that's so funny.

extremist idiots...you just described all the little brown shirts in waiting who are too stupid to see for themselves that Bush is fucking up this country.

I'm looking forward to the day when Bush and his crew can be charged with war crimes.

That's the only thing which is going to bring some sanity back to this nation.

Bush is the one who is trying to bait terrorists to attack the US right now with his fundie-dicksucking vis a vis Sharon.

Just remember that, factor heads, when you face the consequences for supporting the fucker in the white house.

[TimMooring]

11. Lets convince them through legitimate political debate.

I share your goals.

[RainDog]

16. You are more hopeful than I am

that legitimate political debate is possible in a nation with a jerk off who yells Shut up, Shut up whenever he hears the truth.

I've had it with the right wingers in this nation.

No doubt sanity will be restored, and putzes like O'Reilly will go the way of McCarthy, but at what cost to America and the rest of the world for this latest bout of hysteria?

[TimMooring]

18. We *can* do it - but it takes political strategy. (nt)

[wtmusic]

23. That's right! We've got to 'finesse' the fascism approach a little...

he's Mussolini!

[TimMooring]

33. I've also made that comparison.

The penchant for uniforms.. the inept use of the military. It's a good comparison.

[sangh0]

145. If you like legitimate political debate

I suggest you stop with the "I bow to your omniscience" crap.

Your argument is that we should use strategy in discussing the issue, but so far, the only strategy you've presented is to STFU. That won't do. You'll have to come up with something better.

IMO, when 80 year old women who never read the paper tell me that Bush* reminds them of Hitler, then it *IS* time to talk about this.

[mmonk]

19. What is legitimate?

and who determines it? I do share your opinion that using Nazi Germany won't convince anyone. However, how do you make them debate issues? They are emotion driven and ideologically based.

[TimMooring]

21. It's called the democratic party. (nt)

[mmonk]

24. sometimes I can't figure out the party

there seem to be too many in the party that agree with current US strategy. Others with no political backbone.

[TimMooring]

30. We should ask Kerry to clarify his position on corporate corruption (nt)

[maddezmom]

105. super idea, and while we're at it...let's ask bush*, too! n/t

[doni_georgia]

123. I agree n/t

[bigtree]

15. USA government under Bush acts like Nazi Germany

Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, at the president's direction, presented a plan; The Patriot Act of 2001, Public Law 107-56, to monitor the activities of ordinary Americans, which would rival the Reichstag Fire Decree. (Allowed the Nazi government to take any "appropriate" measure to remedy dangers to public safety, and represented one of the major steps in which the Nazi government established its rule.)

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=1183...

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_Fire_Decree


This is an exerpt from my book, Power Of Mischief: http://www.returningsoldiers.us/pompage.htm

Download the book for free!
http://www.returningsoldiers.us/Power%20Of%20Mischief4....

Here's my list of numbered, linked references for the book (253 links):
http://returningsoldiers.us/biblio.htm

[TimMooring]

17. You mean USA under halliburton/Exxon

I think we all see that clearly. The is to WIN in NOV.

[bigtree]

28. yes

Also under:

Lockheed
Bechtel
Northrup-Grumman
Boeing

[RainDog]

31. You mean the merger of state and corporate power?

really, do you think that a factor head is going to care about truth?

here's some truth for them...

http://www.totse.com/en/politics/corporatarchy/162762.h...

As political theorist Michael Parenti points out, historians often overlook fascism's economic agenda-the partnership between Big Capital and Big Government-in their analysis of its authoritarian social program. Indeed, according to Bertram Gross in his startlingly prescient Friendly Fascism (1980), it is possible to achieve fascist goals within an ostensibly democratic society. Corporations themselves, after all, are internally authoritarian; and as they increasingly dominate politics, media and economy, they can mold an entire society to serve the interests of a powerful elite without ever resorting to storm troopers and concentration camps. No deliberate conspiracy is necessary, either; each corporation merely acts to further its own economic interests. If the populace shows signs of restlessness, politicians can be hired to appeal to racial resentments and memories of national glory, dividing popular opposition and inspiring loyalty.

In the current situation, "friendly fascism" works somewhat as follows. Corporations drive down wages and pay fewer taxes (through mechanisms outlined above), gradually impoverishing the middle class and creating unrest. As corporate taxes are cut, politicians (whose election was funded by corporate donors) argue that it is necessary to reduce government services in order to balance the budget. Meanwhile, the same politicians argue for an increase in the repressive functions of government (more prisons, harsher laws, more executions, more military spending). Politicians channel the middle class's rising resentment away from corporations and toward the government-which, after all, is now less helpful and more repressive than it used to be-and against social groups easy to scapegoat (criminals, minorities, teenagers, women, gays, immigrants). Meanwhile, debate in the media is kept superficial (elections are treated as sporting contests), and right-wing commentators are subsidized while left-of-center ones are marginalized. People who feel cheated by the system turn to the Right for solace and vote for politicians who further subsidize corporations, cut government services, expand the repressive power of the state, and offer irrelevant scapegoats for social problems with economic roots. The process feeds on itself.

[TimMooring]

37. I think that a factor head cares nothing for the truth except ...

distorting it.

[Z-Dawg-E]

42. Why can't we win by just being who we are?

So what if they know we're a little radical, maybe a little radical expression is a good thing!

[TimMooring]

53. It requires a majority of electoral college votes to win

I don't oppose radical expression. I'm considered to be a radical myself. I just don't like false statements or distorted comparisons. The USA in 2004 is not Nazi Germany and I could list more differences than you ever could similarities. Treat the truth with respect and I have no problem with expression of radical views.

[DrWeird]

27. Pot calling the kettle black?

nt

[TimMooring]

29. Didn't get that.. come again please

make your point clearly.

[maddezmom]

107. perhaps

clear as bells to me.

[RainDog]

34. It IS important for people to be cognizant of what is going on

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Friendly_Fasc...


The emerging militarism of friendly fascism is somewhat different. lt is global in scope. It involves weapons of doomsday proportions, something that Hitler could dream of but never achieve. It is based on an integration between industry, science, and the military that the old-fashioned fascists could never even barely approximate. It points toward equally close integration among military, paramilitary, and civilian elements. Many of the civilian leaders-such as Zbigniew Brzezinski or Paul Nitze-tend to be much more bloodthirsty than any top brass. In turn, the new-style military professionals tend to become corporate-style entrepreneurs who tend to operate-as Major Richard A. Gabriel and Lieutenant Colonel Paul L. Savage have disclosed-in accordance with the ethics of the marketplace. The old buzzwords of duty, honor, and patriotism are mainly used to justify officer subservience to the interests of transnational corporations and the continuing presentation of threats to some corporate investments as threats to the interest of the American people as a whole. Above all, in sharp contrast with classic fascism's glorification of violence, the friendly fascist orientation is to sanitize, even hide, the greater violence of modern warfare behind such "value-free" terms as "nuclear exchange," "counterforce" and "flexible response," behind the huge geographical distances between the senders and receivers of destruction through missiles or even on the "automated battlefield," and the even greater psychological distances between the First World elites and the ordinary people who might be consigned to quick or slow death.

What will daily life be like under friendly fascism?

In answering this question I think immediately of Robert Theobald's frog: "Frogs will permit themselves to be boiled to death. If the temperature of the water in which the frog is sitting is slowly raised, the frog does not become aware of its danger until it is too late to do anything about it."

Although I am not sure it can ever be too late to fight oppression, the moral of the frog story is clear: as friendly fascism emerges, the conditions of daily life for most people move from bad to worse-and for many people all the way to Irving Kristol's "worst."

To Fusfeld's trio of more unemployment, taxes, and inflation, however, we must also add a decline in social services and a rise in shortages, waste and pollution, nuclear poison and junk. These are the consequences of corporate America's huge investment in the ideology of popular sacrifice and in the ``hard times" policies that have US "pull in the belts" to help THEM in efforts to expand power, privilege, and wealth.

[RainDog]

36. Or as Lt. Col Karen Kwiatkowski noted in American Conservative

http://www.amconmag.com/12_1_03/feature.html

...About that same time, my education on the history and generation of the neoconservative movement had completed its first stage. I now understood that neoconservatism was both unhistorical and based on the organizing construct of “permanent revolution.” I had studied the role played by hawkish former Sen. Scoop Jackson (D-Wash.) and the neoconservative drift of formerly traditional magazines like National Review and think tanks like the Heritage Foundation. I had observed that many of the neoconservatives in the Pentagon not only had limited military experience, if any at all, but they also advocated theories of war that struck me as rejections of classical liberalism, natural law, and constitutional strictures. More than that, the pressure of the intelligence community to conform, the rejection of it when it failed to produce intelligence suitable for supporting the “Iraq is an imminent threat to the United States” agenda, and the amazing things I was hearing in both Bush and Cheney speeches told me that not only do neoconservatives hold a theory based on ideas not embraced by the American mainstream, but they also have a collective contempt for fact...

http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/article3.html

...the subtle changes I saw from September to late January were revealing as to what exactly the Office of Special Plans was contributing to national security. Two key types of modifications would be directed, or approved, by Abe Shulsky and his team of politicos. First was the deletion of entire references or bullets. The one I remember most specifically is when they dropped the bullet that said one of Saddam’s intelligence operatives met with Mohamed Atta in Prague and that this was salient proof that Saddam was in part responsible for the 9/11 attack. It lasted through several revisions, but after the media reported the claim as unsubstantiated by U.S. intelligence, denied by the Czech government, and that the location of Atta had been confirmed to be elsewhere by our own FBI, that particular bullet was dropped entirely from our “advice on things to say” to senior Pentagon officials when they met with guests or outsiders.

The other type of change to the talking points was along the lines of fine-tuning and generalizing. Much of what was there was already so general as to be less than accurate. Some bullets would be softened, particularly statements of Saddam’s readiness and capability in the chemical, biological, or nuclear arena. Others were altered over time to match more exactly something Bush or Cheney had said in recent speeches. One item I never saw in our talking points was a reference to Saddam’s purported attempt to buy yellowcake uranium in Niger. The OSP list of crime and evil included a statement relating to Saddam’s attempts to seek fissionable materials or uranium in Africa. (Our point, written mostly in the present tense had conveniently omitted dates of the last known attempt, some time in the late 1980s.) I was later surprised to hear the president’s mention of the yellowcake in Niger because that indeed would be new, and in theory might have represented new actual intelligence, something remarkably absent in what we were seeing from the OSP...

http://www.amconmag.com/1_19_04/article1.html

...There were several shared prerequisites to get on the Neoconservative List of Major Despicable People, and in spite of the rhetoric hurled against these enemies of the state, most really weren’t Rodents of Unusual Size. Most, in fact, were retired from a branch of the military with a star or two or four on their shoulders. All could and did rationally argue the many illogical points in the neoconservative strategy of offensive democracy—guys like Brent Scowcroft, Barry McCaffrey, Anthony Zinni, and Colin Powell.

I was present at a staff meeting when Deputy Undersecretary Bill Luti called General Zinni a traitor. At another time, I discussed with a political appointee the service being rendered by Colin Powell in the early winter and was told the best service he could offer would be to quit. I heard in another staff meeting a derogatory story about a little Tommy Fargo who was acting up. Little Tommy was, of course, Commander, Pacific Forces, Admiral Fargo. This was shared with the rest of us as a Bill Luti lesson in civilian control of the military. It was certainly not civil or controlled, but the message was crystal.

When President Bush gave his State of the Union address, there was a small furor over the reference to the yellowcake in Niger that Saddam was supposedly seeking. After this speech, everyone was discussing this as either new intelligence saved up for just such a speech or, more cynically, just one more flamboyant fabrication that those watching the propaganda campaign had come to expect. I had not heard about yellowcake from Niger or seen it mentioned on the Office of Special Plans talking points. When I went over to my old shop, sub-Saharan Africa, to congratulate them for making it into the president’s speech, they said the information hadn’t come from them or through them. They were as surprised and embarrassed as everyone else that such a blatant falsehood would make it into a presidential speech.

When General Zinni was removed as Bush’s Middle East envoy and Elliot Abrams joined the National Security Council (NSC) to lead the Mideast division, whoops and high-fives had erupted from the neocon cubicles. By midwinter, echoes of those celebrations seemed to mutate into a kind of anxious anticipation, shared by most of the Pentagon. The military was anxiously waiting under the bed for the other shoe to drop amidst concerns over troop availability, readiness for an ill-defined mission, and lack of day-after clarity. The neocons were anxiously struggling to get that damn shoe off, gleefully anticipating the martinis to be drunk and the fun to be had. The other shoe fell with a thump on Feb. 5 as Colin Powell delivered his United Nations presentation.

It was a sad day for me and many others with whom I worked when we watched Powell’s public capitulation. The era when Powell had been considered a political general, back when he was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, had in many ways been erased for those of us who greatly admired his coup of the Pentagon neocons when he persuaded the president to pursue UN support for his invasion of Iraq. Now it was as if Powell had again rolled military interests—and national interests as well.

Soon after, I was out-processed for retirement and couldn’t have been more relieved to be away from daily exposure to practices I had come to believe were unconstitutional. War is generally crafted and pursued for political reasons, but the reasons given to Congress and the American people for this one were so inaccurate and misleading as to be false. Certainly, the neoconservatives never bothered to sell the rest of the country on the real reasons for occupation of Iraq—more bases from which to flex U.S. muscle with Syria and Iran, better positioning for the inevitable fall of the regional sheikdoms, maintaining OPEC on a dollar track, and fulfilling a half-baked imperial vision. These more accurate reasons could have been argued on their merits, and the American people might indeed have supported the war. But we never got a chance to debate it.

[gpandas]

40. friendly fasism

i think fascism is more ascribable to the attitudes of the citizens, and i don't see any reason to think the attitude of Americans is changing. greed,prejudice,ignorance,sefishness,and dishonesty run rampant in America. as an example,do you have a moral justification for America having 5% of the worlds population and using nearly half of the total energy consumed?

[TimMooring]

38. I have to step out for awhile

Thanks for the excellent discussion.

for those inclined to flame me - heres your chance

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zorra]

41. If you don't recognize at least some parallels between recent GOP

tactics and policies and those of pre-WWII fascist Germany, then you are probably either ignorant of history, uninformed about current events, or both.

[TimMooring]

47. You can assume neither of your presumptions about me if

you agree that your assertion of parallels in no way equates to "USA is Nazi Germany"

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. Do you deny that there are strong comparisons between early Nazi...

...Germany and our current form of government?

If you deny it, then it's clear you're either not paying attention, or you have another agenda for being here. Which is it?

[TimMooring]

144. you're good at giving me unattractive either or propositions

Your parallels are totally lame.

[Octafish]

43. Chimps are smarter and Bush is still a NAZI.

Hurr hurr hurr hurr hoo hoo hoo hoo!!!



Coincidence? I think not.

[TimMooring]

48. i agree (nt)

[onecitizen]

44. Huh?

~

[TimMooring]

49. Didn't get that.. try again (nt)

[TOhioLiberal]

51. you know....

usually by the end of a thread, I have some inkling of whats going on. Right now I am more than a little puzzled. Can someone explain what the point is?

[TimMooring]

54. Perhaps a reread? (nt)

[camero]

52. I think it is cognizant to what's going on

And the dems should be heads up about that too.

[KoKo]

55. Bush thinks he's annointed by Jesus, but he's still a Nazi type. He

doesn't have the brain to understand what all that means, but in thinking he's god like and above it all, he's like Hitler or perhaps Caesar would be a good analogy, also. Maybe Caligula.

[TimMooring]

56. I could not agree with you more (nt)

[TimMooring]

57. You're denigrating hitler and caesar (nt)

[bpilgrim]

60. i think they are more like imperial japan and their GEACPS plan for asia

The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere
http://ic.ucsc.edu/~naso/hist159b/presentations/total%2...
http://ic.ucsc.edu/~naso/hist159b/presentations/total%2...

source...
http://ic.ucsc.edu/~naso/hist159b/presentations/total%2...

though i'd hate to limit the options for comparison and almost any totalitarian gov will do

btw: Caesar was actually more simular to JFK then *... check out M. Parenti's excellant new work on him for more details...

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Caesar.html

Most historians, both ancient and modern, have viewed the Late Republic of Rome through the eyes of its rich nobility. They regard Roman commoners as a parasitic mob, a rabble interested only in bread and circuses. They cast Caesar, who took up the popular cause, as a despot and demagogue, and treat his murder as the outcome of a personal feud or constitutional struggle, devoid of social content. In The Assassination of Julius Caesar, the distinguished author Michael Parenti subjects these assertions of "gentlemen historians" to a bracing critique, and presents us with a compelling story of popular resistance against entrenched power and wealth. Parenti shows that Caesar was only the last in a line of reformers, dating back across the better part of a century, who were murdered by opulent conservatives. Caesar's assassination set in motion a protracted civil war, the demise of a five-hundred-year Republic, and the emergence of an absolutist rule that would prevail over Western Europe for centuries to come.



peace

[TimMooring]

64. Thank you for the ref. Looks very interesting (nt)

[TimMooring]

62. Comparison's of bush and hitler

bush is "walter mitty" htiler and you can dump on him all day w/o any objection from me. In my opinion the more apt comparison is Il Duce.

[TimMooring]

65. If bush is guilty of all we are accusing him of..

i.e. he took us into Iraq as part of NAC and he either LIHOP'ed or MIHOP'ed and others come to eventually understand this to be true then they will understand any expressions of contempt for him made by democrats who knew it all along. BRAVE ON 9/11 commision.

[Wonk]

58. Google Operation Paperclip. Educate yourself on some history.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Operation+Paperclip

[TimMooring]

59. Didn't learn anything there (nt)

[Wonk]

61. Four whole minutes? You're either a super fast reader or

you didn't bother to read any further than the headlines.

Don't blame me for your ignorance.

[TimMooring]

63. I was familiar with the material and didn't have to read every word (nt)

[rman]

66. dang that's a lot of one-liners

-

[TimMooring]

68. What is your point ?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

70. What's YOUR point? You've done nothing with this thread but stir up a...

...fair amount of hostility based your PERSONAL dislike of other posters making comparisons between early Nazi Germany and our current political state of affairs.

Too damn bad that you don't like the comparisons.

I know quite a few people here in Alabama that are not on the Internet and have made the same comparisons. My Dad is a WWII vet who has told me several times that the government that he fought against in WWII became our government in December 2000 as a result of the vote by the SCOTUS. He's not the only WWII vet that I've heard say the exact same thing.

IMHO, people like you need to wake the heck up and start taking a much closer look around you before the NeoCons lower the boom.

[TimMooring]

83. The point is distortions of the truth - you know the bush thing (nt)

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TimMooring]

89. You don't have to read my posts if you don't won't to ...

I'm not attempting to censor anyone. I suggest that people question the motives of those who deliberately distort the truth with suggestions like the "USA is Nazi Germany", This is a bush tactic. Why shouldn't I question whether it, and other dump on the nation variants, originate from within their camp - or from like-minded individuals? You can dump on bush all day - here let me:

Lincoln would piss on bushes head.

If that pisses you off - then I hope it pisses you off good.

[charlie]

67. Tone it down

Freepers are watching.

That's a trope that needs retiring. Yesterday.

[TimMooring]

69. They're not just watching - they're posting

Put yourself for a moment in the dubious company of that cabal. Ever seen a scheme or a nefarious plan come from their quarter?

[charlie]

73. Eh

If you see something you think is overwrought hyperbole, it doesn't mean it came from the desk of Cletus D Mouthbreather, Esq. More often than not, it's just... overwrought hyperbole.

[TimMooring]

80. You'll have to decide that for yourself

I'm suspicious enough of them to think otherwise. I might be overly suspicious or you may be a tad naive.


But while we're in the vicinity - I won't hesitate to say that I don't think there's a nickel worth of difference between an ultra leftist and an ultra rightest. Both distort the truth to their purpose and neither are the type you'd want for president.

Stalin on the left and hitler on the right. The ultra left philosphy is a matter of iconoclastic mental masterbation and the ultra right is one of laissez-faire capatilism.

[charlie]

84. Uh-huh

And of the two of us, who is fostering paranioac suspicions against any who wander onto the path of untruth? Compulsory fidelity to a narrowly bounded frame of discourse is a hallmark of Mao worship or Deutschland-uber-alles... or in your terms, ultra-leftist and ultra-rightist. Uh-oh.

Of course, we've got disruptors here. Most get outted in short order, and the clever ones may never get caught. So what? It still doesn't mean that posters who rub you the wrong way are agents provocateur.

[bpilgrim]

85. who would you consider 'ultra left' today?

typically the names that come up the most from the rights perspective are often the ones that i most admire so i am curious who they may be from a dems perspective.

thanks

peace

[TimMooring]

86. I don't believe their are any in our field of candidates ..

I think there are a fair number on DU. From the rubble their utopia will arise. Modern day anarchist. Most are whining-whiteys, you won't find much of that stripe in people of color - I don't anyway.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TimMooring]

81. I'll let you decide (nt)

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TimMooring]

90. I'm speaking up for the country that I love and believe in (nt)

And it's not anything like Nazi Germany. Clinton said fix it - don't throw it out. I'm not a base-zero kind of guy.

[charlie]

91. Well, aren't we all?

Including the guys who think we're in the midst of powerful elements trying to reprise the 1000-year reich? You don't agree with their diagnosis, so they can't be merely wrong, they've gotta be plants?

Face it, you've got the same authoritarian impulses that you readily see in others.

[TimMooring]

93. I think your facts are erroneous ...

Powerful oil interests have managed to get themselves "elected" by deceitful tactics. We need to get them out and listen more carefully to what Dennis Kucinich and Ralph Nader are saying.

[charlie]

94. I'm not sure what you're saying here

I'm a Kucinich guy. And I hold Nader in high regard. How am I erroneous to say that your prejudiced dismissal of people, who think the same powerful interests you fear are proto-nazis, is waaay off the mark?

[TimMooring]

95. There is no analogy there ...

Just because bush is a "Walter Mitty" hitler that does not make the USA nazi Germany. The internatinal corporations and their designs on American democracy are unique to our time. You must see that .. a little?

[charlie]

97. It's immaterial whether I see it

or whether you're utterly convinced. We're in the midst of a thread you're started, warning all that opinions TimMooring considers beyond the pale come from Freeper plants, so beware! That's baloney. And your overweening self-regard is an impressive sight to behold.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[charlie]

104. Nope

For Us or Ag'in Us is a Bush tactic. Using that, to cast people who merely use metaphors you don't like, as freepers is -- Bushist. And bullshit.

Yeah, we've seen endless "Bush is a Nazi" maiden posts from hamfisted wingers. But, there's always been posts from honest people who think the analogy is apt. That it's not enough for you to disagree, that you've got to deem them infiltrators thwarting your concern for the "country you love and believe in", is personalization of the worst sort. And again, it's bullshit.

[TimMooring]

106. bush is a pathetic excuse for a nazi ...

For that matter comparisons of bush to hitler are ridiculous as well. Hitler was a compelling speaker and the son of a mail man. More like Il Duce. But then if you're making off-base comparisons why not go for best effect?

[charlie]

108. Therefore

anyone who makes the comparison has outted himself as a fifth columnist, determined to undermine DU and Democrats.

Wrong metaphor == Enemy.

Or perhaps, closer to reality, Wrong metaphor == Imagined Enemy of TimMooring.

[TimMooring]

109. Next you'll be accusing me of having WMD (nt)

[charlie]

110. Hah. No.

Potential suicide bomber, maybe. Your determination to martyr yourself might warrant suspicion.

Heavens, what am I saying? That was patently wrong. Can you see how unfair that was?

Can you see how unfair it is to call those with whom you merely disagree freep infiltrators?

Probably not.

Or maybe you can. Surprise me, please.

[TimMooring]

115. unworthy of comment - pass (nt)

[TimMooring]

112. Your metaphor is lame - that is the point.

What's more it distracts from the real issue. You can't trash the entire country and expect people to sheepishly applaud. Or find solace in attacking the person who points out to you that your "metaphor" is bonkers.

[charlie]

114. Psst...

I've never used the metaphor, woodchuck. What's lame is this nickel-and-dime vanity thread -- Disagreement With TimMooring is the Mark of The Freeper.

[TimMooring]

117. Reduced to name calling are we? pass again (nt)

[charlie]

119. You're a hoot

[TimMooring]

121. Well at least that's a better name !!! (nt)

[tkmorris]

96. Can't believe I'm posting to this but....

I really want to know. Earlier you stated that you didn't like far-leftists any better than far rightists, both being equally disingenuous (or whatever you said about them). A poster asked which leftists you felt fit that category and you replied only that we didn't have any running for Pres.

I'd still like to know. Who in this country do you consider to be a fringe leftist without credibility?

[TimMooring]

99. The politics of the far left have been so debunked ...

That no-one on the national stage openly advocates for them - except the communist party and individual iconoclasts - who are omnipresent and nearly totally irrelevant.

[tkmorris]

101. Debunked eh?

I'm not so sure anything has been debunked. The vast majority of "Communist" states have been nothing of the sort really, though there may well be fundamental issues of Communism that cause this to be so.

I would hear more of these omnipresent individual iconoclasts though, those advocating far left positions. Who exactly are they? Name some names this time, if you would be so kind. Here, let me throw one out. Noam Chomsky. Is he one of the ignored eggheads advocating Leftist extremism?

[TimMooring]

103. I'm evidently talking about you (nt)

[tkmorris]

111. Time to bail out was it?

That's a shame. You were SOOO close to salvation.

[TimMooring]

113. I've not bailed ...

If you believe communism isn't a debunked economic and social model ... you're not even in the right century. Want to do another Soviet Union? If so then all that I've said about iconoclasts applies to you.

[RapidCreek]

120. As the man said...

I don't give a crap about Communism. Give me some names of "far left" politically active Americans whose ideas have been debunked.

Give it a try.....or is that beyond your intellect?

RC

[TimMooring]

124. you've got a thing about my intellect ...

A little insecure are we?

[RapidCreek]

126. No...not in the least

It's just difficult to debate a point with someone who seems proudly devoid of one.

RC

[TimMooring]

128. Looking back on what I've said you assert that there was no point?

The point is that mega-corporations and their control over government and media should be front and center in any discussion about how the our system of democracy is going off track. The issue doesn't need to be cluttered with red-herrings about nazism or hitler. Is the point to sharp for you to see?

[RapidCreek]

140. How is describing that which Hitler did with Germany

as that which is being done by Bush, here, now, a red herring? It's a simple statement of fact...nothing more, nothing less. Remarking on corporate control of government and media is remarking on the obvious...calling it by the name history has given it....makes indelibly clear it's result....and that result is what will attract peoples attention. You can call a spade a garden implement or a hole digging tool I'll call it a spade.

RC

[tkmorris]

122. The Soviets practiced......

a version of Communism that Karl Marx would not have recognized. But you know that. That's not the point however, I am more than willing to stipulate that Communisn is defunct, in not debunked, if it will allow us to get back to the question.

Who are these marginalized Leftists you find so ubiquitous in the United States? Name em guy. You know, the funny thing is I didn't set out on an adversarial course with you. I genuinely wanted to understand where you were coming from. You haven't been very helpful in that regard, seems to me.

So, let's start over. Who do you find to be an omnipresent but ignored Far-lefter in the US due to their totally debunked points of view?

[TimMooring]

127. There's never been a version of communism ...

that Marx would recognize and will likely never be - that's why the theories of Marx are considered debunked and defunct. I was speaking specifically of people like you who won't let a dead dog lie. You're the expert on commnunism - tell me me about the current state of Marxist thought. The iconoclasts I was referring to are people like you. and they are omnipresent though not of much significance that I can tell. The theory is unworkable just like the "USA is nazi Germany" "metaphor".

[tkmorris]

129. Bleh. I give up

I ask you straight questions and you deliberately depart on a tangent.

Let me keep it simple. No discussion of Communism, or iconoclasts, or Marx, or even me.

Noam Chomsky. What's your opinion of the man? And no, before you ask, he's no hero of mine. I simply think it would be useful to hear your opinion on him.

[TimMooring]

131. I've seen him on CSPAN and he is an interesting speaker.

I know a little of his theories but don't find them personally compelling. The concept that intellect must be tamed by central authority is pretty standard Marxism and I don't know that he has attacted a large following - certainly not a political force.

[tkmorris]

132. Another non-answer

Why do I suspect that if I asked your opinion on anyone even remotely left of center I'd get a similar "she has a nice personality" style answer?

You know, originally I thought you might be a moderate, much like many we have here. Maybe a mid-westerner, or one who had liberal social values and a conservative spending ideal (much like I do in fact). I wanted to understand your perspective. I guess I should be thankful, I DO understand your perspective now at least.

[TimMooring]

133. I answered your question directly ...

Posturing does not a point make.

[tkmorris]

134. Ok people. Where's Waldo?

The poster of this thread set out to show that certain points of view are clearly the work of Republican opportunists. Freepers, if you will. Scan the thread and find the Freepers. There is your mission.

This post will self-destruct in five seconds.........four....three....two....one.....

[TimMooring]

137. Please do ... Report back in the morning (nt)

I set out to debunk a BS theory of a 4th reich.. and question its relevance to anything vaguely connected with the democratic party and the progressive agenda. I haven't heard anything about Attila the Hun ... next freeper post?

// it's been fun

[Bridget Burke]

135. We are quite cognizant of what's going on.

It's true that disrupters come here from time to time. Some make idiotic statements and are tombstoned immediately. Others just drivel on endlessly.

[TimMooring]

138. ++ yes there has been a certain amount of drivel (nt)

[TimMooring]

139. ++ yes there has been a certain amount of drivel (nt)