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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:30 PM
Original message
Nader's Message - Any Agreement?
I am a longtime admirer of Ralph Nader. He alone seems to see beyond the tip of the assberg (cheneybush) to address the underlying issue of corporate influence on our government and mass media. This message is essential to reclaiming government for the people and Kerry should clarify his stance on the issue. If he were to do this I believe Ralph, as an honorable person, would withdraw his candidacy, endorse Kerry and even actively campaign for him.
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nader's 'message' is nothing more than brain candy.
Of course it sounds good...how else to draw off enough votes from the left to keep the GOP in power? People who cannot see beyond the message to the true intention of his candidacy are the ones who cannot see beyond the tip of the iceberg.

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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. The bush tactic is to attack the messenger
What about the message?
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
55. a lot of here no longer give a flying f*** what Nader has to say
Juvenile? Maybe. Justified? ABSOLUTELY.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. superb!
"No matter how correct he is in his assessment of the political situtation, I feel perfectly justified in pitching a fit and consigning *everything* he says to the dustbin of history because I don't like him exercising his right to run for office."

You may kick my ass now. :D
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Nader is a f***ing joke
and that is what history will show him to be.
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Veggie Meathead Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nader is anything but an honorable person.His ego has caused
endless problems for people with far less resources than he has, not the least of which are the deaths of so many young soldiers and thousands of innocent Iraqis. If he has any conscience, he would apologize to these people and their families and simply fade away from our sights. I detest the man.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Nader's essential message over the year's has been consistent
Isn't this the essential quality of an honorable man?
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you
for saying this. We need to have a campaign based upon positive ideas, not simply "I'm the same as Bush, but I'm not Bush" campaign. Kerry had a pretty decent record in Congress for years...then he started to get aspirations and sold his soul. He needs to go back to his progressive roots and soon.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You sound like the kind of person who should work for
Kucinich, who is far more honest than Nader
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I voted for Dennis in the primary
I'm looking forward to hearing him speak at the convention.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Since when is Kerry the same as Bush?
Care to even try and defend that lie, or will you just let it stand?
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markomalley Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Yes, I can defend that lie.
I said: "We need to have a campaign based upon positive ideas, not simply "I'm the same as Bush, but I'm not Bush" campaign. "

Note that this was in quotes. In other words, that is the message he is sending. I am not THE ONLY ONE here who has pointed out that Kerry has been swinging to the right since he became the presumtive nominee. Kerry is now saying that we need to keep the troops in Iraq. Kerry is now talking about a tax cut for middle class people. And so on.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but that's what he is doing. Like I said in another thread...deal with it or ban me. Don't care which one.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Then you are not the only one who is wrong.
Making the tax system more progressive is not a "rightward swing". Kerry wants the poor and middle class to pay less, and the rich and corporations to pay more. Under what warped view of the world is that "rightward?"

Keeping troops in Iraq is not a "rightward swing." Kerry had been saying that for quite some time, as I recall, as have other Democrats. Nor is recognizing that more troops are needed a "rightward swing." Rumsfeld tried to use Iraq to demonstrate that wars could be fought on the cheap. As we've seen, it isn't true. Trying to fix what we've broken is not "rightward"... I'd argue it's downright progressive. Unfortunately, some progressives have this idea that making the best out of a bad situation is somehow immoral.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. He also voted for the war.
And has been making lame excuses ever since.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. The only message I get from Nader is, "Four more years for bush."
I can't get past that.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Democracy?
Voters like Nader for his message. You have to get past that also.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. I am a Democrat. I could care less about Nader and his "message."..
as a consumer advocate he was great. As a politician he's long on theory and short on actual experience. Go rot in hell Ralph.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. He addresses an essential issue for many voters
Your telling him to rot in hell is entirely irrelevant.
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neoteric lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. I have to agree with you, Tim.
Edited on Mon Apr-19-04 01:07 AM by neoteric lefty
It's fine to disagree with the man's motives, aspirations or actions. But telling the man to "rot in hell" seems to have crossed the line, in my book. That destination is reserved for the GOP :evilgrin: Just kidding, or am I???
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. "He addresses an essential issue for many voters"
Since when is "three voters" = "many voters"
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. You can say you're going to do anything...
...when you're not going to get elected.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's a good message.
Almost word for word what Dennis Kucinich has been saying for the last 2 years, or more. And Kucinich is a Democrat, someone with some actual influence to change things.

Translation, Nader isn't needed, nor is his plagerized message appreciated.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. I can't adequately express my admiration for Dennis.
In my fondest dreams he would be elected president.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. Nobody should vote for Nader....
but everybody should listen to what he has to say.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Tell that to the voters who support his stance on corporate corruption nt
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
15. Nader's message sucks.
Fighting to keep one of the most liberal members of the Senate out of the White House in preference of one of the worst administrations in American history is pretty damn lame, methinks.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Impeaching bush*,
and throwing Corporate lackeys out of Washington is a message that resonates with me.....

but that's just my ideological purity and inability to compromise.

Everybody should vote for Kerry.
Nobody should vote for Nader.
Everybody should listen to what Nader has to say.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Hallibuton exec's would appreciate your stance (nt)
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. No they wouldn't.
I don't support a Bush-Nader ticket.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Que? (nt)
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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. No agreement here
If he is so honorable why doesn't he spread his "message" in a House or Senate race? Let him run against Lieberman. He doesn't need to run for President to send that message: except if his ego needs to be stroked.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. None whatever?
Again he has an essential message with many voters that will lose the election for Kerry if he doesn't step up to the plate.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
49. I think you're correct!
Again he has an essential message with many voters that will lose the election for Kerry if he doesn't step up to the plate.

I liked President Clinton overall and certainly enjoyed many of the benefits of his administration, but there were definite problems as well. He promised a health care plan and we didn't get one. We did get NAFTA though. He promised gays in the military and while they were always there, far as I know the military code hasn't changed. We did get a "reform of welfare as we know it" though. So, although President Clinton was so much better than the thing that's in office now, I think people have to admit that a lot of his progressive ideals got sidetracked and compromised.

We are seeing Kerry apparently making some compromises and softening his positions now in order to appeal to a broader base of voters. Already, it starts!

Now, the issue is whether or not the majority of American voters are ready to approve the message that Nader hopes will gain their support. If Nader is right, his input and influence can only help Kerry get those "independent" votes. If the country is not quite ready to clip the corporate wings, though, Nader's message could lose Kerry the election. Maybe there really are a lot of folks who really wanted Kucinich but (foolishly, IMO) believed he wasn't electable.

Currently, the Democrats have a slight lead in numbers of voters, but that "independent" block of voters is huge... easily a third of the electorate. Does anyone know which way they go?

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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
19. I'm all for the message of Nader and Kucinich
I wish Kerry was too, but will vote for him even though it isn't. Emergency and all that.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
20. Nader has already ruled out your premise...
Today, on Late Edition, Nader said unconditionally he would NOT with withdraw and endorse Kerry under any circumstances. It would be an insult to his volunteers.

Therefore, your scenario, while nice, cannot occur. Ralph has, unfortunately, declared himself the enemy and as such will get only my scorn, despite the many good works of his career.

All down the drain because of his ego.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I saw the program
Nader is meeting with Kerry to discuss their differences. I wouldn't rule anything out at this point.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. America is in mortal danger. Saving the patient has to be the first action
I truly believe that with another four years of the criminal bush gang, the nation we love will be but a fond memory. Already, I look at what has happened in the last three and a half years, and I barely recognize her now.

Does he have a right to run - yes.
Does he have a moral and patriotic obligation to drop out, now - yes, for the good of our country, for the survival of our country, I believe he does.

Anything short of that only aids bush - thereby increasing the threat to America. And, regardless of whether he is right or wrong on any or all issues, that makes him as much a danger to the US as the current regime.

Its not a matter of whether I agree with him or not. His actions threaten efforts to rescue this nation, and that trumps anything he has to say.


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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. What you say may be true if..
Your assumptions about Nader are true. I don't believe they are. Ralph has given his take on what happened in FL and the 2k election. He didn't expect Gore to lose and Gore had it to win. I agree with him. Gore made several critical and fatal errors. He didn't ask Bill Clinton to campaign for him in critical states like Ak and Tn - Gore's own homestate.

Ralph Nader feels that his message is important enough to campaign at the presidential level - the only suitable platform to effectively make the reforms he advocates so well in his speaches.

You judge him too harshly. He said on Late Edition this morning that he wanted to meet with Kerry to determine what can be done to ensure that he is defeated. Don't cast aspersions on the character of a man who has served us so well in all of his advocacy roles. His message is to important this time.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Please amend: "to ensure that he is defeated" above to:
"to ensure that bush is defeated"

I didn't make myself clear.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
33. Nader's real message: "Ha ha ha you fools...
I'll exploit your earnestness to feed my outsized lust for power, enrich myself by buying mutual funds that hold shares the very companies I rail against, bust unions when my staff tries to organize. You'll look the other way, of course, becuase I tell you exactly what you want to hear. Suckers....."
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. That's not right .. I'll repost previous response which applies here too
Ralph has given his take on what happened in FL and the 2k election. He didn't expect Gore to lose and Gore had it to win. I agree with him. Gore made several critical and fatal errors. He didn't ask Bill Clinton to campaign for him in critical states like Ak and Tn - Gore's own homestate.

Ralph Nader feels that his message is important enough to campaign at the presidential level - the only suitable platform to effectively make the reforms he advocates so well in his speaches.

You judge him too harshly. He said on Late Edition this morning that he wanted to meet with Kerry to determine what can be done to ensure that bush is defeated. Don't cast aspersions on the character of a man who has served us so well in all of his advocacy roles. His message is to important this time.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
38. the message is fine, his candidacy is not,
since his running for president does nothing except dilute the anti-bush votes, which will help attain the opposite of what Naders message suggests should happen. Nader could deliver the message without running for president, methinks.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. I respectfully disagree ..
His candidacy forces Kerry to address a very important issue. An that, at least for me, he hasn't done so far. It's our democracy at its best. Have some faith in the integrity of the man.
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Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. damn straight
gore led dumbya in the polls from the convention on because he took up a (phony) populist message to counter nader.

he lost his lead during the infamous "Oh I agree with my opponent on ______" debate and the margin became enough for the chimp to steal the election

nader can keep kerry focused on the grassroots and the left and keep him from running a blah, blah-new democrat campaign

that strategy only works for clinton and , let's face it, kerry is no WJC
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. Kerry does not adress those issues..

..the far-left talking points of Nader; ie "there's no real difference between the Democratic party and the Republican party" (wrt pandering to corporate interests etc).
I'd be surprised to ever hear Kerry say as much as "yes the dem party to is pandering to much to corporate interests, and i will change this" or "corporations have way to much influence on the media, i will resurrect the Fairness Doctrine and The Rule of Sevens."
Also most voters wouldn't care to much, since this kind of corporatism we have today has become politically correct, and consider Nader to be a far-left nutcase.

So, how is it that Nader's candidacy helps prevent another term for Bush?
It may be that Bush is not reselected in spite of Nader, but it's not very likely to be thanks to Nader.
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Egalitarian Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
41. Agree
I'm in a staunchly republican state and I'm likely to vote for Nader unless there's even a remote chance that Kerry can win here. My gut feeling is that Kerry is prone to losing as many votes as he stands to gain by positioning himself as a "centrist".
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
43. Nader is a liar.
I have no respect for him.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I'm not going to let this unsubstantiated claim hang there
Your charge is a serious one.. please back it up.
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annak110 Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
45. I definitely agree with you. Nader has the message we need
Edited on Mon Apr-19-04 12:50 PM by annak110
to listen to and he has carried this message for years while the Democrats have been constantly playing up to the Republicans and ignoring him.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
46. the problem, my dear timmooring
as you see, is too many can't get past nader to hear the message...because: it's too radical for most. not that it IS radical, but it is an attack on business as usual, and most of our dear comrades here are far too conventional to desire that. that's why kucinich didn't fare better, btw.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Nader's actions are part of his record
If all we had to go one was Naders' words, then the hostility would be unreasonable. However, just as Kerry is challenged when his actions collide with his words, it's fair game to note how Nader's actions contradict his words. Nader can talk all he wants about the corrupting power of corporations, but the fact remains that his actions made their theft of an election that much easier to get away with, and despite the fact that his 2000 run did not good and some harm, he continues to insist --against all of the available evidence-- that his running in 2004 will do some good.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. no, republicans stole the election
Edited on Mon Apr-19-04 01:39 PM by noiretblu
it's much easier to focus on nader than to really accept that we experienced a coup, planned and executed by the republican party.
in fact ,it's so much easier because people can continue to pretend that it didn't really happen, and that it won't happen again.
and given that reality, the real question for me is: will it do any good for kerry to run?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Yes, Repukes stole the issue
Before going on, I just want to remind you that I'm one of those who have never said that it's Nader's fault. It's always been my position thawt there were numerous factors going into it with the most critical being the Repukes dishonesty.

However, the fact still remains that Naders' run, by making the race closer than it would otherwise has been, made the theft easier to pull off. I don't expect that Nader should have been able to see that in advance of the theft, but he really ought to see it by now.

And he runs anyway. I can judge that without losing sight of the Repukes crimes and what really happened. I can judge that, and it won't mean that I can't get past his message or his name. I can jduge it EXACTLY because I'm not stuck on his name or his message.

will it do any good for kerry to run?

Yes, even if they steal the election again because this time, it will be more obvious, and this time, the candidate won't concede defeat.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. if they stole the goddamn election...they stole the goddamn election
end of story. when it happens AGAIN, will people continue to bitch and moan about nader...or will they actually do something? hmmm...four years after the fact...nader is still tops. you have a lot more faith in our fellow citizens (and the democratic party) than i do.
i know you aren't one of the usual suspects, my dear :D this topic tends to get my goat.
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dad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Brilliant post.
Thank you for stating the obvious. The Repukes held a coup that Dems aren't even willing to admit happened. And because of this, it CAN happen again.
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TimMooring Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #46
58. hmm you may have something there ...
only makes me understand the importance of Dennis' and Ralph's message about corporations. If both sides are in a state of delusion the prospect of relief anytime soon is remote.

But I am hopeful that Nader's poll numbers actually go up forcing Kerry's hand. Some people play chess - some people play checkers.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
52. Here is my message in regards to Nader. ~ Pragmatism
:shrug: Nader will not ever get more than 2% of the vote so why bother?
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
56. the message? yeah.
He's not the only one who sees beyond the avalanche of shit, but he *is* one of the few people with any national recognition to talk about what he sees and offer solutions. I don't agree with the run this year, but the message is vital.
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Moloch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-04 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
60. Nader
Good message, rotten messenger...
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