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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:40 AM
Original message
Revelation 13: 5-9
Dear DUers,
I thought long and hard about this post-
left the house for a while this evening to
take time to contemplate whether or not to do so.

I do NOT want to start a debate about Christianity.
I am a Christian, and as a Christian, I follow the Bible
as a "road map for living" here in this world.

I am NOT trying to convert anyone, and I would hope that
my fellow Duers would know that- however, can I tell you
that I must share the following with you- if you want to
make fun of me, that is okay- a Christian without a sense
of humor is a dreary sort at best. I understand completely.
There was a time in my life that I would have done the same.

I believe that God works in mysterious ways, to say the
least, and in my study of other religions, I have come to
the sound conviction that God speaks the same message to
all of us. Through all sorts of books of truth. My particular
book is the Bible, but I have found that He is giving the same
message to people who read other books of faith-
WHO in the HELL are we to think that we understand HOW
God works his plan?
Having said that- let me explain that as a Christian,
I trust in a process known as 'santification.' To put it
simply, rather than lean on MY understanding, I ask for
guidance from the Holy Spirit. I am SO far from perfect,
as those of you who know me can attest, but the joy
I have in living is the knowledge that me imperfections
are exactly why Christ could reach me. The first
thing any real Christian will admit to you is the fact that
we are so IMPERFECT- and the serenity of living as
a fucked up human is in the fact that Jesus loves us
all the more for it, and when we ask, we receive help.
(Not always in the way we think it should come...
God DOES have a wonderful zen sense of humor, I swear.)
I have been asking in earnest ever since the "boat"
and Isaiah 61 quote, which when I heard it, KNEW it
was a signal that something was TERRIBLY wrong.
Any hoo-
With all that said, from my heart, I preface the following
with this:
It is possible for Truth to manifest in many ways-
I have read MANY books that contain the Truth.
Please keep an open mind to what I am want to share
with you, especially in the light of recent events.
It is my sincere belief that we are living in a time
that regardless of whether or not you believe in God
or not, I beg you to believe in goodness and light,
in what ever form you may find it.
BHN

"He who has an ear, let him hear" Rev 13 :9

Rev 13:5
"The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and
blasphemies and to exercise his authority for
forty-two months."
Rev 13:6
He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to
slander his name and dwelling place and those who
live in heaven."
Rev 13 :7
"He was given power to make war against the saints
and to conquer them. And he was given authority
over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Rev 13:8
"All inhabitants of the earth shall worship the beast-
all whose names have not been written in the
book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain
form the creation of the world."
Rev 13 :9
"He who has an ear, let him hear."
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. You need to hit edit
a colon and a seven and a colon and a 9 make smilies. Put a space in between.

On the content of your post, * is the closest the world has ever come to the Anti-Christ, in my opinion, and I wish he would be limited to 42 months only. that would mean July is the end for him -- but it won't be. Even if impeachment proceedings started today, he wouldn't be removed by July.

Besides, I'm not sure that the current veep would be any better -- maybe even worse.

Our best best is to vote him out in November.

Goodnight!
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. I don't think he is the AC-
rather the first beast in Rev 13.
BHN
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
41. Closest to the Anti-Christ?
Sure, he's bad, but he has a considerable bit to go to be in the same league as Mao, Fidel, Stalin, or even Pol Pot. And notice that I have not even mentioned Hitler. Then there is Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Tamerlane. Plus, Saddam has still beaten him.

This Bush =anti-Christ BS just makes us look ridiculous, and, I think, will cost us votes in November. There are plenty of good, sound reasons to oppose *, we don't have to go off the deep-end.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. You got to keep this in mind
Bush hasn't had the chance to really excercise his power in the way Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot did, and I think if he wins in November then he WILL be America's Hitler. That is a good enough reason to fight to beat him.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. I will definitely vote
for Kerry in November, but I consider that statement ridiculous. there is still congress and the supreme court. OK, The repukes control both, but as the successful filibustering of *'s court nominees shows, we are not completely powerless. Furthermore, the military probably would not obey any orders to massacre their fellow citizens. Plus, unlike Germany in Hitler's day, the American people are still privately well armed. Also, jsut for curiosity's sake, who is it that are going into the concentration camps, gas chambers, and ovens. the Jews seem out as shown by *'s support of Israel. He also seem to have no real animus towards Hispanics and blacks. Of course, it must be the gays. After all, his explicit rejection of gay marriage shows that what he really wants is to kill them all!! That must be it!. Oh, and maybe the Arabs. But that would have been easier just after 9/11 than now.

I repeat, there are plenty of good reasons to oppose *, i.e., conduct of war, tax policies, economy, immigration, etc, etc, etc, to oppose * from both the left AND THE RIGHT. So why weaken our case with truly fantastic notions like * = Hitler or * = anti-Christ? It just irritates me, that's all. It seems a waste of energy, intellect, and emotion that we could use more wisely. But hey, if it helps you get through the regime.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. I don't think it's ridiculous
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 11:47 AM by truth2power
I think it's true that given time (another term) Bushco will implement whatever it takes to consolidate their power into the forseeable future. The image I keep getting is that of the wicked witch in Wizard of Oz, who, after capturing Dorothy, says about getting the ruby slippers, "These things take tiiime."

Anyone with a functioning brain who watched that so-called press conference last week knows that Bush is operating at the emotional level of a nine year old. Honestly, I was at a house party last fall, viewing Moveon's "Uncovered". One woman said about Bush, "But he's 15 (years old)." I think she was being charitable. More like 9, IMO.

This is serious! The people in power now will stop at nothing. They run the gamut; stupid, nuts, sadistic, sociopathic, emotionally immature, and criminally insane.

Gawd! What does it take? Should we wait until all the "undesirables" start being loaded into trucks before we react?

And, BTW, I don't give a fat rat's ass what the Repukes think, as they seldom do.

edit: spelling
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
55. You misunderstand me.
By "Anti-Christ," I do not mean "really awful horrible despicable person." Obviously, Hitler and Pol Pot and others were worse in many ways.

What I mean is "fitting the prophecies outlined in the Bible that will be fulfilled in the person the scriptures call the 'Anti-Christ'."

No, he doesn't fit them neatly and clearly, so I don't think he's it.

However, the most telling prophecy about the AC -- the one most prophecy scholars consider the deal-breaker, for lack of a better term, is that he will make a treaty promising Israel protection (and later break it).

I think that * is certainly capable of making such a treaty and breaking it. Also, he fits the war-mongering and deception in the pursuit of war-mongering aspects of prophecy better than anyone else I've ever looked at through that lens.



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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. This post glitched. Not sure what happened, but re-posting it.
By "Anti-Christ," I do not mean "really awful horrible despicable person." Obviously, Hitler and Pol Pot and others were worse in many ways.
What I mean is "fitting the prophecies outlined in the Bible that will be fulfilled in the person the scriptures call the 'Anti-Christ'."
No, he doesn't fit them neatly and clearly, so I don't think he's it.
However, the most telling prophecy about the AC -- the one most prophecy scholars consider the deal-breaker, for lack of a better term, is that he will make a treaty promising Israel protection (and later break it).
I think that * is certainly capable of making such a treaty and breaking it. Also, he fits the war-mongering and deception in the pursuit of war-mongering aspects of prophecy better than anyone else I've ever looked at through that lens.

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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #55
65. Excuse me, but I know
exactly what 'anti-Christ' means. And he will be worse than Hitler. And whatever you think of *, and I don't think much of him,z perhaps you should wait until he does these things. Everybody is capable of, say, murder, given the right circumstances. We are not murderers until we kill someone.
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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #41
66. You're right
He's not competent enough to be the Anti-Christ. However, Cheney...
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keithyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. OK, so who is the 'beast?'
Most Christians blaspheme God on a daily basis. Just who is the beast here? Must be RW Republicans...they fit the descriptions as best as I can tell.
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Liberal Christian Donating Member (746 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. The "beast" in Revelation was Rome
Revelation is not intended as a prediction of the future. Revelation was written as a letter to seven churches facing Roman persecution, encouraging them to stand fast and keep the faith.

This work is typical of much apocalyptic literature that circulated for quite a long time. You see apocalyptic hints in the Older Testament book of Daniel, in the gospel of Mark, in other places in the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, as well as in other non-scriptural sources of the time. "Apocalyptic" just means "revelatory." Some of the typical marks of apocalyptic are the extreme symbolism, which served as a kind of code to a people living under oppression.

The Revelation of John was intended to give hope to a people struggling under Roman persecution. That's it. It was not meant to be used as a prediction of the end of the world. That doesn't mean that we can't find in it something that is instructive to us, but I do believe it means we don't look at it as a road map to some kind of final battle to consummate history.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Umm..ok.


42 months? That means something will happen in May assuming that you are referring as Bush being the "Beast?" Maybe you are not taking this that literally?

What's Isaac 61 about?
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. He took office in January 2001
so wouldn't 42 months be July 2004??

I don't know what the OP's point is, except maybe to point out the warmongering that's characteristic of the AC as outlined in scripture.
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Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
37. Regarding the 42 Months:


If as the Good Book says, it's months 42,
Here is an interesting item for you:
Take out the days that Dubya is "off"
It might just come out even! Don't scoff!

Not counting the weekends, just the "vacation"
And maybe it matches the time in the ration.
Eh, it's just playing numbers, not particularly wrong.
Not Antichrist, but he'll do until one comes along!

Schwannzeichen

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Isaiah 61
Is the verse spoken by Jesus to the Church of Nazareth
in Luke 4 to confirm he is the one referred to in OT prophecy-
Bush quoted it from the boat the day he decided to dress up
and declare the mission accomplished.
Talk about BLASPHEMY!
BHN
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. What does the verse say?? Isaiah 61?


That's just bizarre, although I don't know why anything shocks me anymore.

I saw some other reference to the 4 horsemen of the Apocolypse on a Tshirt on the Internet. It had the faces of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and someone else. Charming group.

I think my interest and/or belief in these comparisons is kind of limited to what I would take from any other piece of literature. I mean, face it, if Bush really IS the Beast, we're screwed and there's nothing anyone can do.

I don't believe in the Bible that literally..... Still interesting.
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sable302 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
52. since nobody else has
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 03:53 PM by sable302
Here are the verses:

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good tidings to the afflicted; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
Isa 61:2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn;
Isa 61:3 to grant to those who mourn in Zion-- to give them a garland instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified.
Isa 61:4 They shall build up the ancient ruins, they shall raise up the former devastations; they shall repair the ruined cities, the devastations of many generations.

Goes on and on as such....

To add to the mix, consider also that the book of Isaiah deals mainly with the return of the Israelites from captivity and exile in Babylon, a city in ancient mesopotamia, the part of the globe which we in the modern era refer to as Iraq.

on edit: :scared:



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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. Rev is metaphor-
42 months does not necessarily mean 42 months
as we think of it-
Personally, I think we will see a second term of the shrub,
and perhaps a third.
What I am watching for is the SECOND beast.
That is when the REAL trouble starts.
BHN
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. SOMETHING REALLY STRANGE
EVERYTIME I post scripture those
"smilie things' come up-
I went through this a few weeks ago-
Camero helped me learn HTML, but I SWEAR
I did not put them there tonight!!!
It happened earlier today too-
I was posting 1John: 4 about testing the spirits-
Some had asked if Georgie was Christian or not-
1 John 4 gives guidance on that...
See? God does have a sense of humor!
BHN
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's not God's sense of humor.
We have a smilies lookup table. See for yourself. A colon and certain symbols make certain smiles. A colon and a capital D make a large happy face ----> :D

A colon and a 7 make a happy face with teeth -----> :7

etc.

I believe in God and am a church-going Christian myself, but I do try not to attribute things to God that clearly belong in the realm of humanity. Smilies on DU is one of them.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I confess I am a very BAD typist!
Ys.I.C
BHN
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. You put them there accidentally.
Reply to this message and you'll see a link above the message editor named "Smilies lookup table". Click it and you'll see a table of how to make smilies. You'll see that if you type a colon and a seven, it'll make :7, and ditto for a few other symbols you inadvertently made.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yes, Yes! Camero taught me how to "du" that-
I am forever grateful for that-
However, I think they look REALLy out of place
in Scripture...
:7 (intentional, that one)
BHN
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. Thank goodness it was an accident and not an omen
Interesting thread.
:D (this spot filled with smiley intentionally)
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. LOL....
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. You are the best-
You have met me, know I am SO not perfect
and have NEVAH once made fun of my faith!
:D
Intentionally directed to YOU!
BHN
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. You're just fine with me
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 02:23 AM by nothingshocksmeanymo
imperfections and all.

One last poist...why would I make fun of your faith? You live up to it to the best of your ability as near as I can tell..
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
29. At the bottom of the message screen
is a checkbox that will remove the smilies for you.
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. OK, I'm sorry
I was not being patronizing.

As for those scriptures, this site here has explained alot to me about them as well as your posts.

http://www.endtimesnetwork.com /

I wouldn't put it past the powers that be to have something happen to the shrub this summer if it looks like he might not be elected. That would make it Cheney who would be the second beast.

Also, if something were to happen, Tommy Franks has already spoken of another attack laying the foundation for Martial Law. Something to ponder.

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
23. Patronizing? NO way!
You're my HTML teacher!
I think you are great!
BHN
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. believe in goodness and light AND HOPE
which I guess is part of goodness but deserves a special mention, I think.

Not blind hope, stop-working-and-wait hope..but quiet strength in your gut that keeps you moving and striving; and a gentle breeze lifting that WEIGHT off your shoulders when the state of the world is getting to you.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. How about Cheney as the beast?
It's perfectly within reason that he could have a fatal heart attack. If it's in July, well, there you go.

I just hate to give Jr. any credence, any authority. We all know he's an ass and a puppet of The Dick and Daddy.

BTW, I don't put much in Revelation. I really don't think it belongs in the canon anyway. Why waste time on it? I'd rather study the teachings of Jesus than the strange hallucinations of Revelation.
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Sperk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
11. Hi BeHereNow! I have a sincere question...
I know many devout Christians who are very much into the bible, but not too many who seem as open minded as you. I've always wanted to ask this but was afraid of offending but I think you will take it in the spirit in which it is asked. So here's my question....
Why do so many Christians (which I always thought of Christians a believers in Christ's message) quote from the old testament so much?
It seems to me that much of the old testament is in direct contrast to many of Jesus' words and actions. I have a "born again" brother who can quote the bible front to back but he almost never quotes Jesus. Baffles me.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. GOOD observation Sperk-
And certainly relevant to basis of the rising false x-tianity.
The X-tians, in summary basically DENY the Grace of Jesus
by constantly spouting OT LAW.
"The Sermon on the Mount" by Emmett Fox is a great read
if you want to learn what Jesus taught.
EXCELLENT read for people who do not necessarily
want to join a church, but would like to study the teachings
of Jesus. I encourage you to check it out.
I don't think any one can argue with Henri Nouwen's writings
either. Christian or not- Nouwen know how to communicate
the principles of goodness to all.

BHN

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vetwife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. Old Testament ./New testament
If you are baffled, it is no wonder. If he is a christian and not for me to judge, he should be living by Jesus's teachings not under th Old Law of the Old Testatment. The New testament is like an amendment to a law or a repeal of a law and the new one is in effect. The New Testament is like Current Events spiritually and the Old Testament is like History spiritually. Bush and co do the same thing...Wierds me out !
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
15. Please stop pretending that you, and only you, know what's
going to happen.

You are not the only one faithful.

Please stop this.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I don't think that's the intention....

in fact, I think the preface he/she wrote made it pretty clear that he/she was just musing. Nothing wrong with that.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
28. Perhaps I was not clear-
FAR be it from me to imply that I am the
only one who knows ANYTHING!
That was NOT my intention.
What I tried to convey was the fact that
I believe in Jesus, I believe in the Bible,
and time and again, I am led to certain passages
of Scripture that look awfully familiar when weighed
against our current geo-political landscape.
Because of this, I only ask that people look towards
light and goodness at this particular time in the history
of the world-
It is my SINCERE belief that we are in the grips of
a SERIOUS confrontation between dark and light.
Do I KNOW what is going to happen, certainly not!
I never claimed that-
Peace-
BHN
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
18. What does 13:8 mean?
Rev 13:8
"All inhabitants of the earth shall worship the beast-
all whose names have not been written in the
book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain
form the creation of the world."


this Jew is clueless when it comes to this stuff.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I survived Catholic school
...and it's a mystery to me, too. I can only take it in the spirit and historical context in which it was written, during the height of persecution of the Christians within Rome, and is a combination of dreams, hopes, and rage against Rome possibly fueled by lead-laced wine with a dash of ergot poisoning.

After all, getting all the inhabitants of the earth to recognize any one name is a tall order; getting them all to worship whatever that name is attached to is even more out of the question. This may be interesting writing. Anybody who takes it as literal prophecy is two hooks short of a coat rack.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. It is metaphor:
"Earth" being the conciousness of the world,
rather than spirituality.
One of my best friends is Jewish, and we find common
ground here- in that basing our lives in spiritual goodness
sometimes requires that we go against the ways of the
"world."
The same is true in the Buddhist practice of detachment.
The "Lamb" is akin to that thinking and metaphor-
The Lamb being a connection to God's ways versus the
world- spirtuality vs materialism and worldliness.
For the record- I know Jewish people who are FAR
more Christian than people at my church.
BHN
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
19. My above message having been said...
I'm a little concerned, not about your general religious beliefs, but don't you think you should really really be sure that you know George W. Bush is the antichrist before you accuse him of being so? And get really worried about it? A lot of people have made those kinds of accusations before - in the past it's been Henry Kissinger, Ronald Reagan (his full name, "Ronald Wilson Reagan", has six letters in each name), and I guess someone in that Focus on the Family organization said that Bill Clinton could be. I think you can believe and take something from the Book of Revelation - that there's a lot of evil in this world but you can stand steadfast in the face of it - without feeling you have to interpret it to literally speak to your present situation. A lot of people over about 2000 years have been wrong about who they think the antichrist is.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I should clarify.
When I say "interpret it to literally speak to your present situation", I mean like "interpret certain events described in it to be occurring presently".
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. I do NOT believe GW is the AC
I believe there is a DISTINCT possibility that he is the first beast
in REV 13, and is setting the stage for the second beast who
IS the AC.
BHN
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
25. Scripture is a Riddle: Zen Koan to Confound the Mind:
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 01:15 AM by beam_me_up
And I brethren, when I came to you, came
not with excellency of speech or of wisdom,
declaring unto you the testimony of God.

For I determined not to know any thing
among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

And I was with you in weakness, and in fear,
and in much trembling.

And my speech and my preaching was not
with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in
demonstrations of the Spirit and of power:

That your faith should not stand in the
wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that
are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor
of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a
mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God
ordained before the world unto our glory.

But it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear
heard, neither have entered into the heart of
man, the things which God hath prepared for
them that love him.


But God hath revealed them unto us by his
Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things,
yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man,
save the spirit of man which is in him? even
so the things of God knoweth no man, but the
Spirit of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the
words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which
the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual
things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things
of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness
unto him: neither can he know them, because
they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet
he himself is judged of no man.

For who hath known the mind of the Lord,
that he may instruct him? But we have
the mind of Christ.

-----
Edited to add: For the word "spirit" and "mind" try substituting the word "consciousness"
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. And THAT
is what santification is ALL about.
Thanks for that-
Ys.I.C
BHN
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. I am not a Christian
but I do strive to be christlike--- Emmett Fox was an eye opener on Jesus, I enjoyed it a lot and taught me a lot too on how to strive to stay in contact with a Higher Power. Today all day it has come down to one thing for me, cuz if it's Armageddon time we're all along for the ride-- My thought for the day

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury,pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.


O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Are you a friend of Bill?
BHN
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. yup
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 02:32 AM by AZDemDist6
hence the openminded search for "HP" stuff

and BTW BeHereNow is one of my favorite books ever
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Me too-
I LOVE the book BE HERE NOW-
Love the fellow ship, but had to leave-
Too much hypocricy about where they came from.
which was by the way- a Christian base.
Faith without works is indeed, dead.
(((HUGS)))
BHN
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peace4all Donating Member (428 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
57. "Savage Grace"
a wonderful documentary about Ram Dass's stroke and recovery. Highly recommended!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
43. I believe revelations was a writing concerning the times of the writer
It was a style used as a sort of revenge when a group of people couldn't do much about their circumstance under the yoke of a more powerful adversary.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
50.  "The Cow jumped over the Moon"
Metaphorically speaking;
an Ace Duce
Is a cold hard fact
when you're told YOU lose


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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
44. 42 months...
48 months are in a presidential term...

You speaketh of * as the Beast, I suspect.

:scared:

42 is also the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
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Jumbo Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
47. Nothing but a bunch
of tin foil conspiracy crap.
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forgethell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
48. I gotta hope you're wrong
because if he IS the anti-Chirst, then the end of the world cannot be avoided if the Revelation is correct, and we are interpreting it correctly here.

And if the world doesn't end, then he couldn't be the anti-Christ.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
51. good article here on "Christian Fascism
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 03:42 PM by AZDemDist6
http://www.opednews.com/lang040804_bush_christian_fasci...

The problem comes down to this: Democrats, liberals, and social progressives have simply not grasped how afraid, insecure and how deeply in despair the populace is. They keep speaking as if objective analysis and idealistic vision can win the day. What Bush and Rove, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and Pearls, Abrams and Bolton, DeLay and Rice etc, have clearly understood is that truth is subjectivity. Unfortunately, the inner person of America today is a hollowed out consumer who lacks the will power, stamina and imagination to do anything more than be overwhelmed. Therefore, a politics of crisis, a politics of fear will keep us locked into a state of conformity.
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porkrind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
54. A little advice...
As one who used to believe all this stuff, let me give you some honest sincere advice. I'm not ridiculing you, but really, you would be better off not believing in any of this. It's superstitious and frankly, absurd. We have enough problems on planet earth to worry about without making up imaginary ones.

The sooner we put away our ideas about a magical world where everything is up to the whim of a capricious god, we can get down to business and concentrate on real problems. Trust me, the longer you are away from the bible and christianity, the more absurd it is.

We, as people and as a civilization, are better than this.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. in many ways I agree
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 09:02 PM by G_j
but it's not that I reject the validity (for lack of a better word) of these writings off hand, but because they can be a real distraction from the work at hand.
Revelations is so abstract that I really don't feel many people have made much productive use of it. It is fascinating and sometimes it's fun to speculate. However people have used it in very destructive ways, take "Left Behind" for example.
For a curious open minded person it can be intriguing, but for someone looking for solid answers to dealing with the problems we face in the world today I think it can be extremely dangerous.
I admit I often wish it had never been written for that reason.

As for the teachings of Jesus, I have known Christian activists who have done remarkable good such as "Swords to Plow shares" or the people at the core of the movement to close the SOA. So I cannot judge Christians as a group. Any religion can be used to manipulate people.

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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
58. Um, whoever wrote Revelations was on acid
Go read it.

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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
59. You are going to have to explain this to some of us...
...I understand Revelations is supposed to be a book of prophecy, but you are going to be more specific on the relevance of those verses you posted...how they fit into the current political situation (as I assume there is some political message here as this is a political board).

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
60. nice post
I want to say I very much appreciate your respect for the reader's own beliefs and your open mindedness. If you aren't careful you might start giving Christians a good name for a change. :-)
I am not at all unfamiliar with scripture having family members who are very into it. I am one who is content to focus on goodness and light and have a curiosity about the elements of all religions.
I am a member of 'Christian' church and regularly honor the seasons with 'pagan' rituals. I am also a great lover of Buddhism and Native American teachings.

I've read Revelations from beginning to end many times. I have also studied the very remarkable Hopi prophecies. All I can is, first that I honor the great mystery that the universe is, and that I do not know the truth but can only observe and take in what I can. I can at least say that there is something going on that was foreseen in various ways.

We are obviously at some sort of crossroads in human history.
It doesn't take a religious viewpoint to see this either, climate change, population growth etc. demonstrate this clearly.
Personally though I get a gut feeling that there are forces working that cannot be seen and it seems to me that in some way Bush is unleashing some very negative energies that will effect all humanity for a good time to come.

The warmongering, hatred and near worship of violence as a problem solver has opened up some sort of dark doorway in the collective human psyche. It will not be easy to get back on the path of light because of this. So whatever he is, he has effected the future or our world in a very negative and powerful way.
I hope that all people regardless of their 'religious' beliefs will resist these energies the best they can. I hope (and pray) that people resist the religious fundalmentalism that promotes wars, 'Holy' or outherwise, intolerance and hatred.

We are on a very slippery slope and it's not going to be easy..
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Waverley_Hills_Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Hm..the dark side.."Please don't kill me"
..Bush, mocking, on signing the death warrant for Karla Faye Tucker.

Makes you wonder.

The warmongering, hatred and near worship of violence as a problem solver has opened up some sort of dark doorway in the collective human psyche.

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. to be certain
he has not appealed to our 'better natures' :-(


on a more mundane(?) level I think he is a sadist.


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salonghorn70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
63. Revelations
I, too, am Christian. Raised in the Southern Baptist Church, 1/2 of my adult years in liberal southern baptist churches, now a Methodist. I figured out a long time ago that I was never going to understand Revelations. No big deal. Its not important to my faith.
BeHereNow, I deeply respect your opinion as one Christian to another. But I really wonder if any of us are meant to understand it.
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