How many people here truly think Bush is a "Christian?"

[devilgrrl]

He's as far from "Christian" as one could get. In fact, I'd go as far as to say, that he couldn't care less about religion in general. A total charlatan!

:argh:

[Bertha Venation]

1. not to burst your bubble, but

it's not for me to say. :shrug:

I will say this, although I think it's wrong for me to do so: He doesn't much look or act like a follower of Christ.

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself . . . ."

[indepat]

12. But, but, but he loves Jesus and does God's work, the work the Almighty

whispers in his ear only to do. With such divine guidance, how could anyone doubt or question his relationship with the Almighty unless a good case could be made he is delusional?

[leyton]

17. Exactly.

We can judge no one - not even the worst of sinners - because really, it's a matter of degrees. We all sin: if I am to judge George Bush because I claim to be more righteous than he, why couldn't someone else do the same to me?

[leesa]

96. Oh Please! So you know nothing, see nothing, etc...

What is in his heart is being acted out on a large stage in broad daylight. Wake Up!

[leyton]

99. I can't speak to that.

Wake up? Please. I am aware that the President is incompetent at best, a warmongering politically opportunistic liar at worst. But I don't know whether he's going to heaven or not, and neither do you. Unless you can point out Scripture that says, "Judge not, except maybe the really bad ones," I'm sticking by this.

[YankeeFan]

100. I Can’t Either.

For all of his immeasurable failings, Bush is a Christian. How good or bad he is at being a Christian is none of your business. You are entitled to an Opinion to how good he is, but that is it. If you, or anybody else for that matter, go beyond opinion, I would suggest to that persons friends that a Certain “Liberal” is starting to be fitted with the pointy white hats of the KKK.

People, this is supposed to be a board for Liberals. We are supposed to be tolerant and respectful of other people and their beliefs. No matter how distasteful; no matter how repugnant. We have to make allowances for others. “When in Rome….etc.”
Conservatives Do Not tolerate, to one degree or another, other people and their beliefs. The Taliban, KKK, Nazis and the Khmer Rouge were and are famous for their Extremely Conservative viewpoints.
As Liberals we have to at least take what are worst enemies say with grains of salt. Granted, with Bush we have to take enough salt to get heart and kidney problems. But he is entitled to say that he is a Christian. And until he says otherwise I have to believe him.

[nomatrix]

103. Hitler said he was a Christian

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Jim Jones said he was a Christian.

This is democratic underground. Keeping an open mind and being totally gullible are two different things.
How good or bad, you say, is none of our business.
Clearly it is.
If he were not the "commander in chief" it wouldn't make any difference. As the representative of a nation, invading a non-Christian nation, using religion for self promotion, turns this into a holy war. When he states "God told him to" he takes this nation on a crusade.
Unconstitutional.
Be a minister.

There's a saying, "don't tell me you're a Christian, let me figure it out for myself."

[leyton]

104. We still don't know.

You misquote Yankeefan; he said, "How good or bad he is at being a Christian is none of your business." (Italics mine.) The key point is here that while we can point to actions and say they're wrong, we cannot point to the person and say he's damned. No, I don't agree with Bush's actions in office, and I think he does use religion for self-promotion. Yet, as I said before, I can't just draw a line between my sins and his. It's simply not for me to do.

And I resent that you call this being totally gullible. I'm not blinding myself to his deeds, I'm simply not presuming to judge his character. This not-judging is part of my beliefs, and it's not gullibility, it's just what I believe. If you don't agree with it, if you don't understand it, that's fine, but don't start crying "gullible" because that's simply not what it is.

[Selwynn]

113. I expected to see diffrent "fruits"

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

Less than a chapter before that statement, the gospel writer depicts Jesus exhorting us to judge not. How do I reconcile those two sentiments?

Well, like this: I don't know the state of Bush's spiritual life, and I accept the fact that its not my place to make absolute statements about it. However, I can honestly admit that I was expecting to see very different fruit than what I have seen in the last four years...

[stopthegop]

2. we can't judge what's in his heart ..

anymore than RW's can judge what's in Hilary's...no way to do it

[stellanoir]

10. one of the fundamental tenets of Christianity. . .

as I understand it is. . .forgiveness and the willingness to help those less fortunate than oneself.

He is consumed with vengence and thinks "poor people are lazy"
(according to one of his prof's from business school).

Sorry just can't see it in him at all.

Or to quote Flanders,"Maude's gone off to Bible camp to learn to be more judgemental."

Now let's see if that quotation prompts a lawsuit by Fox.

[soleft]

13. but it's not a fundamental tenet of fundamentalism

Check out Karen Armstrong's "Battle for God" - explains everything that's happening now.

[playahata1]

39. Karen Armstrong was on "NOW with Bill Moyers" last week.

VERY enlightening.

[doni_georgia]

81. True, but

Jesus said that he would tell many - depart from me I never knew you. And they would say, but Lord, I did this and that in your name. But Jesus said, (paraphrasing badly) when I was naked you wouldn't clothe me, when I was hungry you wouldn't feed me, when I was imprisoned, you wouldn't visit me. They cried out, When Lord did we not do these things. And he replied, that whenever you fail to do this for others you are doing it to him.

In my own (admittedly liberal and hodge-podge) Christian beliefs, the above is the basis of the faith. Jesus said to take care of the poor and the down trodden. Help the helpless, give hope to the hopeless, love the unlovable, etc. I judge whether someone is a true follower of Jesus by this. MANY - in fact the vast majority - of Christian think it's all about BELIEVING the right thing. That's what they focus on. That's why they bash everyone over the head with their Bibles. But Jesus made it clear that it's more about how you live your life, what's in your heart.

[priller]

14. But Jesus doesn't ask us to do that

You're right, we don't know what's in his heart. But the Bible says people are judged "by their works".

"By their fruits shall you know them."

"Why do you call me Lord, but not do the things I say?"

"Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Bush is not a Christian because he doesn't ACT like a Christian.

[nodictators]

25. Bush Flunks the Ten Commandments

Thou shalt not steal elections

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors' oilfields

Thou shalt not kill

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor

Thou shalt not hold strange gods before thee

[noiretextatique]

62. oh come now...he showed what's in his "heart"

by ridiculing karla faye tucker
by being a part of the stolen election and coup
by doing nothing before & during 911
by making that "trifecta" comment repeatedly
etc, etc, etc...

[leesa]

97. I can.

[Zynx]

3. He's like many of the evil people in history. He professes Christianity,

but only uses it to manipulate people. He likely does not believe most of it I'm sure. There's no way he could and act the way he does. Cheney, in my mind, is unquestionably atheistic or agnostic, but preaches Christianity solely to appease the right.

[ButterflyBlood]

48. I definately agree about Cheney

and I think * is probably atheist/agnostic as well. The whole "born again" act is so fake. Besides, who ever heard of a born again Methodist?

[Zynx]

59. Anyone who wears it on their arm like him can't be a real Christian.

Such an act is a sign of true disbelief. I've noticed that the ones that question their beliefs the most are the ones who yell about it.

[salonghorn70]

89. "Born Again"

This means lots of things to lots of people. I am a member of one of San Antonio's largest Methodist Churches (3000+ members). In my church the term is used openly in a way that means turning away from a life that has no belief in Christ and toward a life that accepts Christ as a personal savior.

[July]

78. Completely agree. God serves Bush, not the other way around.

I agree that we can't know his heart. He's probably talked himself into some kind of simplistic understanding of Christianity, so he's at least technically "a believer." But his particular brand of Christianity is so utterly convenient in justifying every move he makes -- it defies logic.

[Amerpie]

4. And he has the nerve

to chastise Muslims who "kill in the name of religion".

In the press conference the other night when he talked about Palestinian "terrorists" I was (kind of) waiting for him to say something about IDF bulldozers (NOT).

edited:spelling

[RobertSeattle]

5. Don't tell me you are a Chrisitan, let me figure that our for myself

Is my credo.

Bush May be a CHRINO: CHRistian In Name Only

[jjmalonejr]

6. Bush belongs to a perverted, radicalized sect of Christianity...

...in much the same way as Osama bin Laden belongs to a perverted, radicalized sect of Islam.

I wouldn't question his sincerity about his faith, because I belive he is sincere about it. It's his deep-seated faith (wrong-headed as it may be) that guides him in developing policy and making decisions, rather than an objective assessment of the facts in front of him.

That's what's scary to me.

[OC_dem]

7. Of course he is

didn't you read the part in the Bible instructing Christians to go blow the hell out of foreign countries. // sarcasm off

[outinforce]

8. Not For Me To Say

I think doing so would make me not too very much different from Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

Both of those guys like to judge others and decide who is -- and who is not -- a "real" Christian.

[Goldmund]

9. This argument is old, me thinks.

Look at history. Leaders that have identified themselves with Christianity have perpetrated some of the worst atrocities ever. Sure, you can make the argument that it isn't consistent with Jesus' teachings -- and maybe Christianity around 50 AD wasn't what it became once it was institutionalized. But, Marx or the leaders of the Paris Commune wouldn't have been happy to associate with Stalin or Pol Pot either, I'm sure.

Yes, many, many people who call themselves Christian do so with best intentions. But the institution of Christianity is just a front for imperialism, enslavement and corruption, and always has been -- and uses the teachings of Jesus just as a cover and as a banner, just as its symbol, not as its guiding principle.

[greendog]

11. I'm not aware that he's been rejected by many Christians......

....so he must be a Christian.

If his behavior was in anyway troubling to Christians they'd be putting up billboards, buying air time, and walking around downtown with signs. I think most Christians are quite proud of "crusader w.".

[outinforce]

16. If I Understand What Christians Believe,

It is not what "many Christians" believe that matters at all.

And I think that your implication that the fact that Christians do not put up billboards, buy air time, or walk around downtown with signs, is a bit silly.

It makes about as much sense as suggesting that if a group of Christians were to put up billboards, buy air time, or walk around downtown with signs saying that John Kerry is not a true Christian, that that would make it so.

[Kahuna]

19. Oh, stop it! You know nothing about Christians and it shows.

Judge not, lest ye be judged. That is what Christians believe. No true Christian would try to judge what is in someone else's heart. Nevermind, walk around with billboards trying to out them. That's utter nonsense.

Furthermore, It's not the business of other Christians to "reject" him. That's God's business. Get it now?

[greendog]

24. I might not know about Christians.....

....but I know what I see. I see G.W.B. call himself a Christian, lie his way into a war as a Christian......and go almost completely unchallenged by Christians.

If it's not the "business" of Christians to reject atrocities committed under their banner, there's not much value or worth in the Christian faith.

[outinforce]

32. Two Words

Lyndon LaRouche

I confess that even though I am a Democrat, I do not buy time on airwaves, nor do I put up billboards or walk around downtown with placards saying "Lyndon LaRouche, even though he claims to be a Democrat, is not one".

I just don't do that.

Do you?

Does that fact that we don't see many billboards, or hear many ads, or see people walking around downtown saying "LaRouche is not a True Democrat" mean that LaRouche is, in fact, a member of the Democratic Party??

[Goldmund]

38. Weak.

Lyndon LaRouche isn't wrecking the world; George Bush is. Lyndon LaRouche has no chance of winning the election; Shrub does. His question wasn't about why Christians aren't protesting some idiot who is supposedly misrepresenting their faith, but why Christians aren't protesting what is being DONE in their name. Lyndon LaRouche isn't getting much done other than spewing drivel for a few loonies.

[outinforce]

45. Weak? I Think Not

Remember the title of this Thread? "How many people here truly think Bush is a "Christian?""

And then look at what was said in poost #11 of this thread:

"I'm not aware that he's been rejected by many Christians...so he must be a Christian.

If his behavior was in anyway troubling to Christians they'd be putting up billboards, buying air time, and walking around downtown with signs. I think most Christians are quite proud of "crusader w."

The way I read that post (#11), I thought the person who posted it was saying, "Since there aren't a lot of people who profess to be Christians walking around denouncing Bush, Bush is, therefore, a Christian".

What I pointed out is that someone like LaRouche may claim to be a Democrat (just like Bush claims to be Christian), but the fact that not a lot of Democrats denounce LaRouche does not mean that he is a Democrat any more than the mere assertion that not a lot of Christians denounce Bush (an assertion, by the way, that I think is not necessarily accurate) means that that fact alone validates Bush's claim to be a Christian.

[Goldmund]

60. Yeah, my aunt is also a Democrat,

and she's a bitch. And there aren't any Democrats running around denouncing her.

If every group ran around denouncing every random idiot claiming to represent them, they wouldn't have time to do much else.

"What I pointed out is that someone like LaRouche may claim to be a Democrat (just like Bush claims to be Christian), but the fact that not a lot of Democrats denounce LaRouche does not mean that he is a Democrat any more than the mere assertion that not a lot of Christians denounce Bush (an assertion, by the way, that I think is not necessarily accurate) means that that fact alone validates Bush's claim to be a Christian."

It does validate it, because in this case, it isn't just some random idiot a-la-LaRouche. Christians are a huge part of Bush's _base_ -- and therefore unquestionably responisble (as opposed to, say, Nader voters, which one can debate) for Bush's rise to power. They are also a majority of those who still support him. They have the collective power to take away HIS power -- and therefore effectively stop Bush in his tracks. Not so they can denounce him and feel better about themselves, but because such a denouncement would have profound consequences on what is actually going on. It isn't about simply personally un-aligning themselves with Bush or any other particular person. It's about having an effect on the way the world works. And they have the power to do that; not only have they not done it, but they are largely responsible for what has been done by Bush, simply by the virtue of being his largest and most reliable bloc of voters. It's even more than that -- when you see Bush doing to worst things he's done, from war to the gay-marriage amendment to curtailment of civil liberties -- he does it to pander to his BASE, ie. them. They are the ones who implicitly push this stuff.

[outinforce]

66. Your Aunt

is a female dog? Is that on your mother's or your father's side of the family? I do hope that she is your aunt as a result of marriage.

You discredit, I think, the vast numbers of Christian folks who, without making a really big deal of their religion (in part, I would guess, because they, unlike other folks who also claim to be Christian, take the words of Jesus to heart -- the words that go something like this -- "Do not pray in public, but cultivate a relationship with God in private), who toil against the war.

You'll excuse me for saying this, but it really does appear as though you are saying that all (or, if not all, then most) Christians support Bush.

I don't think that is anywhere near correct, and I think that when you suggest that, you defame a great number of good Christian people.

Worse than that, I think you may make them feel as thought they are not welcome in Our Party.

And that's a REAL shame.

[Goldmund]

69. If you look at my original post...

...you'll see that my points are directed toward the institution of Christianity and not toward individual Christians. The subject of this discussion is "is Bush Christian"? And what I was saying is that if Bush is not Christian, then the Christian church is not christian either, if the whole of its history is taken into account. And if he is not Christian, then a majority of institutions in present day America who define themselves as "Christian" aren't Christian either. Thus I think it's meaningless to say Bush isn't Christian, unless you're prepared to accept all of these other things too, in which case the very label "Christian" loses its meaning. The "Christian Right" is one of the major political forces in the US; the "Christian left" is a novelty term.

Of course I know there are many individual Christians who see their religion as a force of good in their lives. But I am arguing that Christianity as an institution has far from been a force for good throughout history.

And as far as my use of the term "bitch", let's not go there again, ok? The decision to allow that term has been reached, and I will not stop using it, as I will not stop using any other term I find descriptive of what I want to express, period. And for future reference, I use it for men, too.

[outinforce]

70. Here's My Point

It's really very simple:

It is not for anyone to judge another person as to whether or not s/he is s "true" or "good" Christian.

That is exactly the sort of thing Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson do.

And I repeat another point I made -- You do not know how many folks there are who also claim to be Christians who are engaged in the fight against the war and against Bush. You really do not.

And when you demean their beliefs, and try to make it appear as though all Christians must fit into the "George W. Bush" mold, it makes it appear as though you are trying to use Christianity as some sort of litmus test to keep people out of our party and away from our struggle.

[Goldmund]

73. OK, let me clarify:

I DO NOT think that people who identify themselves as Christians are unwelcome in our party. Some of my very good, and liberal, friends, identify themselves as Christians. I DO NOT believe there should be a Christian-rejecting litmus test for the Democratic party.

But you say:

"It is not for anyone to judge another person as to whether or not s/he is s "true" or "good" Christian.

That is exactly the sort of thing Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson do."

Well, I agree with you here. My whole point is that Bush can call himself Christian as rightly as most leaders in history who have called themselves Christians. And that those good Christians who say that "Bush isn't Christian because he is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus" could rightly say the same thing about most of the institutions that label themselves Christian, and about the history of their own church. It's not that Bush isn't Christian; it is that insitutionalized Christianity, as a whole, isn't consistent with its founding principles.

The problem of Christianity is much wider than Bush. It is that every religion becomes hijacked by greed and bloodlust as soon as it's insitutionalized.

[greendog]

40. re: LaRouche

LaRouche does call himself a Democrat and obviously he is not. Almost all Democrats reject him at the polls.

The DLCer's call themselves Democrats and are rejected by some in the Party....some are very vocal about it and go so far as to leave the Party.

[outinforce]

35. Another Thought...

"but I know what I see. I see G.W.B. call himself a Christian, lie his way into a war as a Christian......and go almost completely unchallenged by Christians."

Do you happen to know the official position regarding the war in Iraq of the Roman Catholic Church (which has, I think, millions of members), or of most of the mainline Protestant Denominations within the USA, including, I'm pretty sure, the United Methodists -- the denomiation to which Bush belongs?

[greendog]

37. re: official positions

The official position of the mainline churches was to express disapproval "on paper" and then look the other way as atrocities were committed.

[outinforce]

41. What Else Would YOU Have A Church Do?

"The official position of the mainline churches was to express disapproval "on paper" and then look the other way as atrocities were committed."

Interesting choice of words -- "express disapproval and then "look away".

Tell me, what is it, exactly, that you would have a church that disagrees with the policy of the United States Government do?

Remember, in providing an answer to that question, that there are many Governmental policies which a number of churches disagree with.

[greendog]

57. Churches have a lot of power.....

I was raised in a Catholic family, attended Mass weekly until I was 18 and got a wonderful primary education in Catholic Schools.

The Church printed a weekly bulletin, the Priest delivered a weekly sermon, and the Arch Diocese printed a weekly newspaper. The Catholic Church owns Primary Schools, High Schools, and Universities.

The Catholic Church has a TV broadcast network across the Nation. They even have an organized mens social club "the Knights of Columbus"....you've probably seen their pro-life billboards.

If the Church Fathers were truly horrified by this war it would be a pretty easy matter to organize in a fashion that would leave NO DOUBT in anyone's mind that Catholics were opposed to this war.

I assume that other large denominations also have resources that would allow them to express a strong anti-war message.

Instead, Bush has his war with the "consent" of Christians.

[outinforce]

63. Do I Understand You Correctly ?

Do I understand you correctly to say that it would be entirely appropriate, in your eyes, for the ROman Catholic Church, a tax-exempt organization, to use its vast wealth and its vast organization, to engage in a political fight to end the war in Iraq?

Are you suggesting that it would be perfectly appropriate, in your eyes, for the Roman Catholic church, a tax-exempt organization, to have homilies delivered from the pulpits of each RC Church each Sunday, in whci priests call the faithful to a particular political point of view?

And do I also understand you to suggest that it would be OK for other denominations to use their vast resources (all gathered as tax-exempt donations) in order to bring about political change?

Good Lord.

Have you never heard of the separation of Church and state?

[greendog]

67. Political point of view....or

moral point of view? War IS a moral issue.

We are all aware that the Catholic Church uses their resources to promote a strong pro-life message. Other Churches do this as well.

We all know that if the Republican Party was pro-choice they couldn't count on more than 35% of the vote (probably less). The Republican Party has a pro-life stance because there's a demand (by Christians) for pro-life politicians.

The Church doesn't have to "endorse" candidates with pro-life views. Candidates know that declaration of support for pro-life views will net them a percentage of the vote.

What I'm suggesting is that Churches (if they wanted to) could create a "demand" for anti-war politicians.

[outinforce]

68. I See

"We are all aware that the Catholic Church uses their resources to promote a strong pro-life message. Other Churches do this as well.
"

And you have no problem with that at all?]

You don't see any danger in having the churches creating a "demand" for politicians of any particular persuasion?

You don't subscribe, I take it, to the notion that churches should preach the gospel and teach their doctrine, and leave politics out of it?

What happens when the church, having created a demand for politicians of a particular political persuasion, actually get their wish?

You had better hope, I think, that your religious beliefs line up with those that the church has created a demand for.

Isn't that exactly what you are saying you DON'T want?

[greendog]

75. Yes, I agree we're going in circles.....

"What happens when the church, having created a demand for politicians of a particular political persuasion, actually get their wish?"

That's exactly my point! The Churches have created a demand for George W. Bush! If it weren't for Christians he'd be reading comic books in Crawford, Texas and Al Gore would be President by a landslide.

Christians elected Bush because he's pro-life and they support the senseless slaughter of the Iraqi War because Bush is..........pro-life!

....and they're aren't enough Churches that preach a gospel and teach a doctrine of "peace" to make any difference.

The original question was "is George Bush truly a Christian" and my answer is "yes, he calls himself a Christian....he was elected by Christians....he went to war as a Christian.....and he continues to receive the strong support of Christians.

As a group, Christians approve of the slaughter of brown skinned non-Christians.

If YOUR reading of the gospel and doctrines of your church has brought you to a differing viewpoint YOU are exceptional.

[Zynx]

61. The Catholics, Methodists, and many other official churches denounced the

war.

Hitler claimed the Christian banner while privately blasting Christianity as not being compatible with Nazism. There have been many others like him and Bush is one of those who, like Hitler, professes Christianity on the surface but only uses it to manipulate people. Anyone who uses it to summon nations to war is not a Christian.

Have you ever thought that there are a massive number of false Christians out there? Do you have any idea how few do anything but go to church and go through the motions? Those are the ones supportive of the war. Those who follow the teachings of Christ could never support this war.

[greendog]

74. Sure, I'm aware that some Christians are anti-war.....

....and support the anti-war candidates, but the number seems to be pretty small.

re: Massive number of false Christians.

If I were part of a "moral" organization and most of the members embraced immorality I (personally) would question the value of that organization.

If you've studied the teachings of Christ, and from that have developed a strong moral and spiritual foundation I don't have any particular disagreement with you. There are some people who have called themselves Christian that I greatly admire. MLK, Dorothy Day, and Daniel Berrigan to name a few....but I think they are pretty different from most who call themselves Christian.

[July]

80. What about those of us who are not Christians?

Having been raised as one, I'm familiar with the tenets. From the outside looking in, I'd have to say it's one weird version of Christianity that I'm looking at.

[smirkymonkey]

92. But it is the business of fundamental Christians to reject

and judge those who don't believe as they do, liberals, gays, minorities, Jews, etc.?? Isn't judging those groups "God's business" also?

Get it now?

[Zynx]

56. I will not be categorized like that.

I am a Christian and I do NOT support Dubya. Most Christians don't really believe anyway. It's always been that way. Most do it just to hedge their bets.

[Stuckinthebush]

15. First, you must define "Christian"

On one level the answer is Yes because he says he believes in the divinity of Jesus. For many born agains, this is the primary factor in determining if one is a Christian.

However, on another level, you can say no because he doesn't even try to live the teachings of Jesus. This would be the definition of Christian for many mainstream denominations.

I personally don't care what he calls himself, I just know that his philosophy is a danger to the world.

[strategery blunder]

53. He is, imo, a FALSE Christian

Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusions of their own minds."

Translation: Be on the lookout for false prophets. Since * likes to use the OT a lot, I thought I would use the OT to express my suspicions.

More...

Luke 12:15
Then he said to them, (the crowd) "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." (Sound like Bush proselytizing?)

Matthew 5: 9
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

Edit: It is easy for one to believe in the divinity of Jesus. It is MUCH harder to follow in His footsteps.

[chefgirl]

95. Exactly!

>>Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." (Sound like Bush proselytizing?)<<

DING, DING, DING!!!! We have a winner!
I went round and round with another DUer not too long ago, desperately trying to say exactly that.
NO, Bush is NOT a Christian. He's a fundie wing-nut, a present day Pharisee, nothing more.

-chef-

[Canuckistanian]

18. In the twisted mentality of Fundies, he's a Christian

While espousing none of the ideals of Christ. Someone who mouths the words while cherry-picking his justifications from obscure parts of the Bible. Mostly the Old Testament "smite all thine enemies" description.
Violence towards your fellow man, lack of compassion for the weak, dealing with others dishonestly are all the things that Christ protested.
I think what's needed is a redefinition of Christianity. Christianity needs to be wrested form the greedy grasp of these Fundamentalists who have perverted the good message of the Gospels.
I don't have much hope of that happening soon.

[swinney]

20. Bush a Christian I is Pope Clarence

Fraud

Read Paul Waldman "Fraud".

Best money you can spend.

Great chapter on Taxes.

[Classical_Liberal]

21. I don't believe it personally

He does that thing he always does when he is spreading war lies, whenever he discusses anything about Jesus. You know, where he catches his tongue between his teeth.

[Zinfandel]

22. If it means 20 mil religious right votes and donations, just like Reagan

said he was a Christian. I could say I was a Christian, and say all the right things and pretend. But it doesn't mean shit, just a way to get into someones pocket...If Bush really was a Christian, he wouldn't have to go around reminding everyone of it constantly, bringing it up whenever he gets a chance. A Christian would go about being a Christian in his own heart, not wearing it on his sleeve.

Jimmy Carter is a Christian...you don't hear or see him making a big deal over it, for image.

Bush will say he's a Christian, even as Bush is ordering the killing of people around the world, what in the name of Jesus or for OIL? As well as Bush's hatred of the poor (he'll say otherwise, though his actions speak louder than his words)...his cutting of programs and health coverage.

Bush will use "God Bless America" after every speech, to ram it down everyone throat, see I'm a Christian, Bush lies about everything, so you know he's lying about this as well.

But it's all about money and power with these right-wing fascist....Bush sold his soul for money and power long, long ago, he's never had to work for a living...he's a lying sack of privileged shit...

He'll prostitute himself for religion if it means votes.

[Az]

23. Trick question

Whether a person is Christian is one of the more difficult questions. There are so many differing opinions on what it means to be a Christian that the only viable way to deal with it in our society is to take the person's word for what they claim to be. Thus if he claims to be a Christian we must accept his claim.

Now what this means to various people can have a widely varying interpretation. To another selfproclaimed Christian they may find his claim invalidated by his actions or they may agree with his actions and thus verify their personal interpretation of Christiainty.

To someone of any other faith or lack of faith the question really is moot. There is no such thing as a true Christian to them as they do not believe that the founding events are true. They may find positive aspects of various teachings of Christianity but this is reflected in how they feel about the individual rather than the label of Christian.

In the end the only possible way to determine if a selfproclaimed Christian is in fact a true Christian would be to ask Jesus or god. And this route seems rather limited in approach. Not a lot of feedback in a practical sense from either of these individuals. And the Holy Ghost does not seem to communicate in a readily recognisable manner either.

[Bake]

26. By their fruits shall ye know them

Not my place to judge. OK, I'm not judging. I'm just looking at the fruit on the tree, like the Bible says. You don't get pears from a crabapple tree!

What fruits do we see on Smirk's tree? Lying, greed, theft, and death. Death, and more death.

What does that tell us? Judge for yourself.

Bake

[Regulus]

44. When a christian judges, it's called discernment.

This gift of the spirit allows a christian to know if
something is of God or of man.  And a christian has a great
guide for his/her discernment in Galatians 5, [Quoting from
the New American Standard Bible}

19   Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:
immorality, impurity, sensuality, 
20   idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts
of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 
21   envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these,
of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that
those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of
God. 
22   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 
23   gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no
law. 

Anyone reading this should be able to determine which side of
the God/flesh divide the the actions of this administration
fall on.

[BeHereNow]

106. Welcome to DU Regulus! And, AMEN to your 1st Post!

Discernment is indeed a gift, santification follows
justification.
You and I are "on the same page."

Ys.I.C.
BHN

[vetwife]

84. Right on target !

All liars shall find their place in the lake of fire......Do no harm to any man ...(Jesus speaking to the soldiers) but with the Word of God......Pray for those who despitefully use you...Pray for your enemies.....If a man ask for you shirt..give him your coat as well...Turn the other cheek.....Blessed are the peacemakers.....Forgive 70 times 7 in a day.....
This is from Monkeyboy's King James Bible...Where is this following the teachings of Christ? Render Unto Caesar that which is Caesar and that which is God, God's. In other words keep church and state separate. He has hijacked and misguided Faith !
I love Woe uto you scribes, pharasees and hippocrites....
And the one thing God hates most of all is to incite confusion among the people. He calls it an abomination.

[West Coast Democrat]

27. I don't know what it means to be a "Christian" anymore

[tom_paine]

28. AntiChrist

Does that make him Christian, or at least AntiChristian.

Hey, it's not everyone who is mentioned in the Bible!

George W. Bush is the AntiChrist, or for the non-religious, he is akin to the Greg Stillson character in Stephen King's "The Dead Zone".

Same thing.

[cheezus]

29. he's not conservative either, I guess that makes him a neo-christian

[Guava Jelly]

30. My Favourite Saying is

And feel free to use it

Going to Church Doesnt Make George Bush a Christian anymore then Going to Taco Bell Makes George Bush A Taco

[damnraddem]

31. He's the Anti-Christ.

And I'm an agnostic! ;-)

[DrWeird]

33. Of course he isn't.

He's rich and he believes in the death penalty.

[Bake]

49. Something about a rich man, a camel and the eye of a needle ...

As I recall.

Bake

[vetwife]

85. it is easier for a camel to go

through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter into heaven.

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. Personally

He doesn't fit my idea of a Christian, no.

But I am not the one in charge of ultimately deciding that.

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[cosmicdot]

36. based on his own self-description as being a 'media creation' ...

... and, his tendency to 'lie', and smirk when he lies ... and, the general corruptness of the BFEE ...

... I'd say 'no' ... he's a media creation ... and, he lies ... and, he smirks while doing it ...

now, if he showed true compassion for the poor and the least amongst us ... sought peace instead of war, etc., I might give him the benefit of the doubt ... but, all he does is contrary to the teachings of the church ...

"You know, I could run for governor but I'm basically a media creation. I've never done anything. I've worked for my dad. I worked in the oil business. But that's not the kind of profile you have to have to get elected to public office."

http://makeashorterlink.com/?D1F765B08

I think he claims to be a "Methodist", and it seems that the Methodist organization is at odds with much of *'s so-called policies. Something just doesn't click there. He seems to appeal more to the fundamentalist and televangelical-corporate organizations which just strikes me as wearing plaid with stripes.

[Zorra]

42. Was Hitler a Christian? He said that he was. Scary quotes:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator."
Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46

"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence
of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill
the mission assigned to it by the Creator."
Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125

"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12

[burlwindow]

46. Even More Scary Quotes:

“Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)

Sura 26:227 “Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of God, and defend themselves only after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!”

3:85 “Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41)

“And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, illtreated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help.”

Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196)

5:51 “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This freindship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people.Educate yourself:http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2001/issue4/jv5n4a2.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/Islam12.htm

[Zorra]

51. So, what is your point in posting this?

[burlwindow]

54. Don't you want to know the mentality you're trying to reason with?

I am against my brother.

My brother and I are against our cousin.

My brother my cousin and I are against the world.

Islamic teaching, it's wonderfully open-minded, don't you think!

[playahata1]

76. It looks like you are taking SELECTED quotes from the Koran

and TWISTING them around to fit your anti-Muslim prejudices.

I suggest you also look at certain Old Testament scriptures in the Christian Bible -- and tell me who's the more warlike.

[Zynx]

65. He had the public face but he made many comments blasting Christianity.

He did the public thing to appease the German public which was mainly Christian though their faith was damaged heavily by WWI.

Hitler was clearly not a Christian. No real Christian would use it as a tool to kill 50 million people.

Also there are these:


Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the
instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe
transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

82. Photos showing Hitler Praying, Attending Church, appearing with

religious figures at rallies. Whether Hitler was truly Christian or not, he very much used and promoted a connection between being a good Nazi and a good Christian.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

[supernova]

43. I am not qualified to to say

whether Bush is a good "christian" or not.

I can only say that he and I have totally different foci.

[guitar man]

47. That's between

Him and his maker. I would not attempt to judge him on his personal spiritual situation. I have enough on my hands trying to take care of my own.

However,speaking as one of his employers,I can only say I am extremely displeased with everything him and his misadministration have done since they slithered into the White House. George W. *Bush,YOUR'E FIRED!!!!!

[playahata1]

50. A quote from Michael Eric Dyson:

"If I had to choose, I'd rather sink with atheists who say they don't believe in God, yet love God's children, and show it with the work they do and in their compassion for the vulnerable, than rise with believers whose view of God is shriveled and vicious, and who punish others, and themselves, ultimately, with hard-hearted moralizing, and a cruel indifference to the suffering of the unwashed that grows from the ill-temperedness of the self-righteous."

[goclark]

52. He Self Identifies As A Christian

He has the right to self identify.
Other Christians believe he is a Christian. They have a right too.

I have a right to believe that he uses it for political purposes.

I have a right to self identify as a Christian. Am I perfect,no.

But, IMO, GWB is not my ideal of a Role Model for Christianity.
He is only a Poster Child for Christianity.

Do I have a right to judge, you bet I do!

[boobooday]

55. It is just a tool

People are tools, ideas are tools, beliefs are tools to these Machiavellis.



http://www.wgoeshome.com

[noiretextatique]

58. christian is as christian does: I WILL TOO JUDGE HIM!!!!!

and every other hypocrite who exempts himself from behaving as he claims other people should. and since i am not a christian, i feel perfectly fine with judging the hell out of him :D

[TimMooring]

64. Well he's always talking about "moving heaven and earth"

But that may have just been the sound of a turd dropping

[CBHagman]

71. Well, he gives a bad witness, as they say.

I don't pretend to know his inner life. His conversion may be very sincere, and for all I know, he really takes the notion of repentance and grace seriously and knows that he's dependent on the mercy of God for salvation, not his own merit.

But that said, I can't stomach another pundit or journalist gushing about how obvious it is that Bush's faith is sincere. I surely don't know that. It ISN'T obvious.

The Gospel also says, "By their fruits shall ye know them." The espistles talk about the fruits of spirit being gentleness and self-control. Bush, with his temper, impatience, obvious immaturity, and tendency to hold grudges, is not exactly the model of the mature Christian leader.

And let's not even get into the book of James. There's pretty strong condemnation of those who favor the rich over the poor, and Bush is nothing if not a model of favoring the rich. Elimination of the inheritance tax, anybody? Time to make sure Paris Hilton has her tax cut, all while calling for cuts to training and literacy and heating assistance programs.

As I said, it's a bad witness.

[stopbush]

72. Yes, he's very much a Xtian. A quick look at a few sayings of

Jesus prove beyond a doubt that in spirit and action, bush is a true follower.

Jesus said:

He that is not with me is against me (Matt. 12:30)

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matt. 10:34-38)

Seems to me that bush is following Jesus pretty closely.

[redqueen]

77. I should think zero.

[doni_georgia]

79. I believe he believes he's a Christian, BUT

He doesn't show much fruit - or Christ-likeness. For instance, one of the hallmarks of a true Christian is supposed to be humility, but this is a man that can't think of a single mistake he's made in 4 years. Another hallmark is supposed to be love for your enemies - no need to elaborate here.

[snippy]

83. If God exists, Bush most likely is a pawn of Satan.

If God does not exist, Bush is just an evil piece of shit.

[Ladyhawk]

86. Most of the "Christians" I have known have been just like *.

I'm talking about right-wing fundies and like it or not, right-wing fundies are a large, vocal group of Christians with a lot of power. I realize there are other kinds of Christians who are decent, good people, but fundies generally aren't among them.

Currently I am discovering that my dislike of fundies is not going away. I'm having a real struggle with this. I am surrounded by Shrub-supporting fundies and I'm finding I really, really don't like them. Even the "nice" ones are getting on my nerves. I don't know whether or not I'll be able to change my attitude. I've tried before and so far it hasn't worked.

I'm just thoroughly pissed.

[salonghorn70]

87. As Much As I Dislike Bush

There is no doubt that he is a Christian. We may disagree with his political actions. BUT, that is not what faith is all about. Faith is a belief in Jesus Christ. I do feel that Bush believes in Christ.

[ButterflyBlood]

110. why do you think that?

if he did he wouldn't be so showy and actually FOLLOW Christ.

[number6]

88. no

.

[ldf]

90. he's as christian

as i am heterosexual.

[botchan]

91. Judge not...

[progressivebydesign]

93. He's a fake.. he's a product of the Religious RIght candidate mill.

There are special bible classes for these people, to help them USE the bible for their speaking.. they know where the money is. He's a fraud.. like the guys living in that posh mansion financed by the christian right.. the ones that live rent free and are schooled in how to appear Christian.. to rake in the money.

[Mike Niendorff]

94. not me.

I see no evidence whatsoever of Christianity in the behavior of either Bush or his supporters. Jesus would weep at the thought of them invoking his name to justify their crimes.


MDN

[Van Helsing]

98. Bush is as much of a Christian as Satan is.

[Lindacooks]

101. He certainly doesn't follow Christ's teaching

as in, help the poor, heal the sick, turn the other cheek, no false prophets, don't worship other gods - I mean, the opposite of everything Bush has every said or stood for is Christ.

[drfemoe]

102. America's first evangelical Christian president

Carter's Crusade
Jimmy Carter explains how the Christian right isn't Christian at all.
By Ayelish McGarvey
Web Exclusive: 04.05.04

Former President Jimmy Carter, America's first evangelical Christian president, still teaches Sunday school at his Baptist church in Plains, Georgia, and he and his wife, Rosalynn, continue their human-rights work in developing nations through the Carter Center at Emory University. In recent months, the Carters toured Togo, Ghana, and Mali to raise awareness of the public-health needs of those nations. In February, Carter spoke about the role of evangelical Christianity in democratic politics with Prospect writing fellow Ayelish McGarvey.

Republicans have been extremely successful at connecting religion and values to issues like the fight against terrorism, abortion, and gay rights. Democrats have been far less adept at infusing our issues -- compassion, help for the poor, social justice -- with any sense of religious commitment or moral imperative. Why do you think that is?

When I was younger, almost all Baptists were strongly committed on a theological basis to the separation of church and state. It was only 25 years ago when there began to be a melding of the Republican Party with fundamentalist Christianity, particularly with the Southern Baptist Convention. This is a fairly new development, and I think it was brought about by the abandonment of some of the basic principles of Christianity.

First of all, we worship the prince of peace, not war. And those of us who have advocated for the resolution of international conflict in a peaceful fashion are looked upon as being unpatriotic, branded that way by right-wing religious groups, the Bush administration, and other Republicans.

Secondly, Christ was committed to compassion for the most destitute, poor, needy, and forgotten people in our society. Today there is a stark difference because most of the people most strongly committed to the Republican philosophy have adopted the proposition that help for the rich is the best way to help even poor people (by letting some of the financial benefits drip down to those most deeply in need). I would say there has been a schism drawn -- on theology and practical politics and economics between the two groups.
.. more ..
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=7572

Reaching to the Choir
Think all evangelicals are right-wingers? Don't believe everything you read. Just as many are politically moderate. Can Democrats win their votes? God only knows, it's worth a try.
By Ayelish McGarvey
Issue Date: 04.01.04

In early February, 60 minutes' Morley Safer portrayed white evangelical Christians as the carnies of American Protestantism. Nine million viewers tuned in and saw shots of vast "megachurch" congregations swaying hypnotically and raising their hands in song. Tacky cinematic renderings of a fiery Armageddon added some dramatic tension. The slick ringmaster of these goings-on, of course, was the Reverend Tim LaHaye, the famous apocalyptic entrepreneur and co-author of the wildly popular Left Behind novels. (The series depicts the end of the world as prophesized in the Book of Revelation.)

Safer eventually turned his attention to Washington, where he declared that "evangelical ... beliefs have already reshaped American politics." As the visages of George W. Bush, Tom DeLay, and John Ashcroft flitted across the screen, the message was clear: The Republican Party has God on its side.

Except that this year, a considerable group of evangelicals just might swing the vote -- in favor of the Democrats.

Meet the "freestyle evangelicals." Compelled by evangelicalism's conservative theology but averse to the right wing's intolerance and lack of charity toward the poor, they occupy a curious political middle ground. Every four years they independently evaluate the state of the union through the lens of a Jesus-centered faith. But their concerns extend beyond the conservative morality issues of abortion and gay marriage to progressive matters of social justice, America's role in the world, and care for the environment. The sociologist Stephen Hart describes Christian faith as comprising a set of elemental moral "building blocks" that believers "assemble" in countless combinations to construct their social ethics. Freestyle evangelicals have neither an exclusively Democratic nor Republican worldview; they say they often find themselves in the tiresome position of electing officials who will do the least amount of damage rather than the most good. As one believer told the Prospect, "I am a political moderate, not despite my theological conservatism but because of it."
.. more ..
http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=7373

[rumguy]

105. I think he genuinly sees himself as a Christian

and that he prays...

now as to the depth of his conviction, well I guess God will judge that...

[BeHereNow]

107. "Test the Spirits" 1John Chapter 4

Beloved, believe not every
spirit, but try the spirits
whether they are of God:
because many false
prophets are gone out
into the world.


1Jo 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit
of God: Every spirit that
confesseth that Jesus
Christ is come in the flesh
is of God:


1Jo 4:3
And every spirit that
confesseth not that Jesus
Christ is come in the flesh
is not of God: and this is
that of antichrist,
whereof ye have heard
that it should come; and
even now already is it in
the world.


1Jo 4:4
Ye are of God, little
children, and have
overcome them: because
greater is he that is in you,
than he that is in the
world.

1Jo 4:5
They are of the world:
therefore speak they of
the world, and the world
heareth them.


1Jo 4:6
We are of God: he that
knoweth God heareth us;
he that is not of God
heareth not us. Hereby
know we the spirit of truth,
and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:7
Beloved, let us love one
another: for love is of God;
and every one that loveth
is born of God, and
knoweth God.

1Jo 4:8
He that loveth not
knoweth not God; for God
is love.

1Jo 4:9
In this was manifested the
love of God toward us,
because that God sent his
only begotten Son into the
world, that we might live
through him.

1Jo 4:10
Herein is love, not that we
loved God, but that he
loved us, and sent his Son
the propitiation for
our sins.

1Jo 4:11
Beloved, if God so loved
us, we ought also to love
one another.

1Jo 4:12
No man hath seen God at
any time. If we love one
another, God dwelleth in
us, and his love is
perfected in us.

1Jo 4:13
Hereby know we that we
dwell in him, and he in us,
because he hath given us
of his Spirit.

1Jo 4:14
And we have seen and do
testify that the Father sent
the Son the Saviour
of the world.

1Jo 4:15
Whosoever shall confess
that Jesus is the Son of
God, God dwelleth in him,
and he in God.


1Jo 4:16
And we have known and
believed the love that
God hath to us. God is
love; and he that dwelleth
in love dwelleth in God,
and God in him.

1Jo 4:17
Herein is our love made
perfect, that we may
have boldness in the day
of judgment: because as
he is, so are we in this
world.

1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but
perfect love casteth out
fear: because fear hath
torment. He that feareth is
not made perfect in love.

1Jo 4:19
We love him, because he
first loved us.

1Jo 4:20
If a man say, I love God,
and hateth his brother, he
is a liar: for he that loveth
not his brother whom he
hath seen, how can he
love God whom he hath
not seen?

1Jo 4:21
And this commandment
have we from him, That he
who loveth God love his
brother also.

Bush a Christian? Not according to Scripture.
And that is where I look for discernment.

BHN

[JanMichael]

108. Is there One True Scotsman? Probably not.

Same with religions. Who's to say he isn't a Christian? He certainly seems to think he is as do millions of whack job reich wing conservative Christians.

[enki23]

109. everyone who says "i'm a christian" is a christian

and they come in all shapes, sizes, beliefs, and temperments. he appears to be one of the more asshole-like kinds. not surprising, as that particular trait is far from uncommon among those professing "christianity."

[SHRED]

111. Sure he is.

Lots of them act like he does.
Look how many think war is OK.
Look at Christian history throughout the centuries and the devastation that it has bestowed upon humanity from the Missionaries, Inquisition, Salem witch burning, slavery, and the attempted genocide of the Native Americans.
Look at the priests.

Yep...Bu$h fits right in.

[Shrubhater]

112. That's for sure!

How can you be more right?:headbang: :yourock: