Kucinich seems to have a plan

[Trek234]

(first I'd like to say, yes, I do support Kucinich - especially after today)

It seems to me that Kucinich is realizing that he is being shafted by certain candidates who are not being honest with the people. It seems that he is pointing out potential hypocrisy in other candidates so that perhaps they may loose favor and he will gain.

If Kucinich had not pointed out who voted for what today (i.e. NAFTA/WTO) I would probably have not known. In fact, before Kucinich did so by the manner in which they were speaking I would have assumed they had voted exactly the opposite.

I see nothing wrong with calling them on it during the primary time.

This is part of the reason American politicians like Bush get in office to begin with.

In Britain, for example, when Blair goes up and speaks before parliament they don't applaud every 5 damn seconds regardless of what is said. Instead they either laugh or throw out something when Blair speaks dishonestly. They don't mindlessly get up and clap. And you know what? The British don't have the majority of the government headed by radical right wingers either.

Bush once said the British were "rude" to do this. Apparently many DUers agree with Bush after watching Kucinich. Disapointing.

Well, maybe we can look forward to great debates with Bush in which he is not called on anything, is spoke kindly torwards, and have empty smiles everywhere.

<sigh> Democracy really is shot to hell in this country. There is a point when civility among politicians goes too far. We have far exceeded it.

[mhr]

1. Go Dennis Go!

The Man With The Plan!

[JohnKleeb]

2. I was impressed too

I agree with your comment on Parliament reminds me of what Lewis Black said in England, people can oppose the leader in public so Bush better stay clear of england, I think Kucinich knows hes one of the best on the issues, and wanted to explain to the AFL-CIO the real difference between him and the others and apparently it worked, a poll has Dennis leading among them.

[vision]

3. DK is great

he needs a little polish but his message is what, IMO, the Democrats should be saying and what they should be supporting.

Have Sharpton coach him a little on his presentation and I think you would have a winner. As it is he is the dark horse and I am rooting for him.

[deek]

11. Imagine Kucinich/Sharpton ticket n/t

.

[sasquatch]

4. Kucinich is the best

But if he didn't get in I hope Dean does.

[leftofthedial]

5. I'm for Kucinich as well

Certainly no candidate would volunteer the information that they had supported NAFTA and WTO before an audience of AFL/CIO members.

I'm a bit concerned that Dennis is too strident though. Other candidates (Dean and Sharpton, for example) made it clear that they are angry about the way things are today in America, but they did it without coming off as nasty.

The American public is so tuned into the superficial that I'd hate to see them tune out Kucinich's great ideas just because they don't like his presentation.

[diamondsoul]

9. But he's not always like that.

Kucinich is a variable man. Right now he's had enough of being drowned out by Dean and other publicized candidates. Many times he's completely ignored, such as last week in a San Fancisco Chronicle editorial which said Dean was "the only Democrat calling for the removal of troops from Iraq". Kucinich read that (just the day after he told the people at Harkin's event he wanted our troops removed from the area and the UN brought in) and finally got tired of it.

Combine that with the major impact of tonight's debate on the general public and he HAD to get loud, get serious and show a little outrage. If you watched him in Iowa it was a totally different Dennis Kucinich. Calm, warm, somtimes passionate, but not at all as angry as he came off tonight.

[janx]

36. He went way over the top in the debate.

I like him too, and I know it's his style because I've seen him do it before, but he even broke the rules of the debate in doing so this time.

When I first saw him, he wasn't like this. But he seemed to adopt this style during one of the earliest forums.

What gives?

[Semi_subversive]

6. I think he's the best qualified candidate

but left's face it. He's too short and too homely for the shallow Americans to vote him into office.

[Tinoire]

7. I agree with you

Kucinich has a solid plan and a solid track record. If you notice, he doesn't waste any time attacking Bush because we all already know we hate Bush and the mess he made. That's a given- why waste time with that? I know it, you know it, it takes more than just hating Bush to get my vote-

- I want to hear a SOLID, CONCRETE plan for how you plan to get us out of the mess we all know Bush made.

2- I need that SOLID, CONCRETE plan to be vouched for by a consistent track record.

3- This is the first time I've paid attention to the elections this early. Not only paid attention but came to the table with my issues clear and my research done. I know who is 100% anti-war like me and who is not. I know who went to the anti-war rallies, marched with striking workers, protested at the Seattle WTO, and showed that he cared more for the laborer than for the corporation.

In other words, I need TRUTH. And truth is what Kucinich has given and continues to give us.

I'm all for him calling other candidates out on the carpet. I'd like to see more of them do that because these elections are too important for us to be had again.

Let all the truth come out NOW because the Republicans will drag it out later. The sooner the better so that an educated majority vote gets the best one the nomination.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. What Tinoire said!!!

:7

I think it would be wonderful if presidents had to appear before Congress on a regular basis, as PMs have to appear before Parliament. And not just because Bush* would be soooooo bad at it and give us all something to laugh at, but because it would actually be helpful in helping communication between the executive and legislative branch and allow us the people to learn more about what's going on and what the views of the prez and various Congresspersons are.

[Rhiannon12866]

10. I would vote for Kucinich

He was my choice in the MoveOn Primary. I was just discussing tonight's debate with a friend. We both agreed that we like some candidates more than others, but the most important thing is to get behind whoever is capable of removing the squatter-in-chief from the White House!:grr:

[JohnKleeb]

12. I agree Rhi

ABB for me, but Kucinich is number 1 for me, he has some ideas that could turn in to something big, some thought FDR was nuts with Social Security, LBJ with medicare, but Kucinich wants to preserve those good old things and best of all he has new ideas like universal pre elementary education and college for the same, his health care plan is nothing new but it is the most grand.

[Rhiannon12866]

14. The ``friend'' I was referring to was your friend, leftist_rebel1569

He kindly told me when the debate was going to be repeated on C-Span. I caught it at 11:15pm EST.

I was a little concerned that Dennis went after his fellow Dems, particularly Dean. I don't think that the audience liked that. Dean obviously didn't; did you see his expression?

I have liked what Kucinich has had to say and found I agreed with him 100% on that SelectSmart test. I would like to see him win, but, as I said to our mutual friend, I think the most important thing is to remove the squatter-in-chief from the White House and I will vote for anyone who can accomplish this.:shrug:

[JohnKleeb]

18. I didnt talk to Lefty tonite

I didnt like that either but you know Dean's been doing it and yeah I saw his expression. I am ABB myself but Kucinich is the best in the pack. I like Dean ok but I see more appeal in Kucinich, he has a better health care plan imho, and not only that his education plan is lovely.

[Rhiannon12866]

23. I know that Dean is the most popular on DU, but he does nothing for me

I guess I need to read more about where he stands on the issues. I would sooner vote for Kucinich or Gephardt, after seeing tonight's debate. But, as I have said on other posts, I would vote for anyone if I believed he (or she) could defeat Bush*.

[deek]

13. difference between UK style and ours

I loved it when I was able to watch the parliment express what they really thought--booing, cheering, etc. They were able to voice their opinion...their passion. There is none of this idiotic and embarrassing polite clapping after every sentence (as the evil one beams, believing he is the annointed one). And Americans think the English are too reserved???

I remember watching the SOTU--the camera catching Hillary rolling her eyes as she tapped her fingers together in the obligatory fashion.
The Academy Awards show attendees have more real choice in applauding or not (which speaks volumes).

Where was it that * refused to go because they couldn't guarentee a standing ovation?

Checks and balances??? HA.

[Tinoire]

15. Kucinich #1 in Gainesville Poll (after AFL-CIO) !!

:bounce: :party: :bounce: :party: and now I can :smoke: and go to bed :)

Presidential Forum
8/5/2003

<snip>

The Gainesville viewers also held a straw poll. Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich led the way with about a third of the vote, followed by Vermont Governor Howard Dean and Massachusetts Senator John Kerry. Tonight's straw poll is believed to be the earliest in our area.

http://www.wcjb.com/news.asp?id=7753

[twilight]

39. WOWWW!!!

That is some great news! Yesterday I saw another DK bumpersticker and it was the ONLY one I saw!

I firmly believe that the press is trying to cover-up DK and his agenda - like maybe if they ignore him he will go away.

DK will NOT go away!

Dennis Kucinich for President in 2004!!!!!!

:dem:

[Dover]

16. Yes, I liked that he wanted listeners to leave there with substantive info

about where each one stands on very specific things. Maybe we ought to make a list of the issues for each candidate with their voting records on each item.

Did Kerry say that were he voting today he WOULDN'T vote for NAFTA???
Then Kucinich asked him if he'd UNDO Nafta if elected. I don't think he answered that. He is definitely going to be a burr under their saddles.
Dean seemed a bit stunned and insulted by Dennis's questions...lol! Dean is usually the one challenging the more established insiders with those kinds of questions. Kucinich blindsided him, I think.

[Desertrose]

17. they kinda reversed roles tonite LOL

Dean decided to play nice & Dennis had enough of the bs and was charged !

I loved it!!

I commented on a thread in P&C that I think what may upset some folks about Dennis' anger is that it is real & primal. Its from his heart about how & where this country is has been taken under * and some of the "politicans"...thats what I like about DK- he isn't a "politican"...he's a real human being who cares about people and the country & he'll get in your face about it if that what it takes...and thats what it took tonite.

He got the truth out & sometimes the truth isn't all smooth & polished... sometimes the truth has sharp edges....

I say good for you Dennis! and thank you!!!!

Peace
DR

[Dover]

19. Yes, for Dennis......as for all of us..........it IS personal!

He was there for business. No posturing, no bs.

He's gonna make life Hell for the those who have been politicians so long they can't remember how to be authentic, spontaneous and true to themselves.

[Tinoire]

21. There's one on DK right here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=10913&mesg_id=10913

Lists all the issues and hard work he's done with each of them. Really an impressive progressive!

[Dover]

24. Great, thanks! I just want to put all the candidates' stats side by side

on the same page for comparison. That's what Dennis was trying to accomplish in the debates.

[Mairead]

20. So is there a thread where this event was reported in detail?

Or could someone report it here? I haven't cable (I barely have the telly), so I didn't see it. It sounds as though it was exciting.

[Tinoire]

22. There's a thread here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=128&topic_id=4631

and another one here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=128&topic_id=3240&mesg_id=3240

C-Span might have it archived... I'd try there first!

Peace

[Rhiannon12866]

26. It is being repeated as I write this and will certainly be repeated again

On another post, someone said that this is available on the C-Span website, and they were watching it there. If so, this might be easier for you if you have TV difficulties. It was definitely worth seeing. I thought Gephardt and Sharpton came off the best, but opinions are divided.:shrug:

[birdman]

25. Did he plan to act like such a nutball last night ?

I'm sorry. I like a lot of the guys positions but the
way he behaved in the debate was unfathomable. Shouting
in a near hysterical way at the other candidates is
not going to impress anybody. They started to look at
him as if he were a demented relative that they had been
forced to bring to a posh wedding. He really needs tp
work on his public demeanor if he's going to have any
success at all. As of now he's not ready for prime time.

You can make a case forcefully with appearing out of control.

[Trek234]

31. "was unfathomable"

Oh for god sakes. Worse happens in other democracies all the time. You should watch some British/French/or German politics. If you think this is "unfathomable" you'd probably think revolution was at hand in Europe.

"They started to look at
him as if he were a demented"

WRONG! They started to look at him because they were upset he was disrupting the la la land environment they were trying to set up. If you were Kerry would you be happy someone brought up your voting for NAFTA at the AFL/CIO forum? I seriously doubt it. Too bad for Kerry - he's responsible for his vote, not responsible for having it failed to be mentioned.

"He really needs tp
work on his public demeanor if he's going to have any
success at all."

Don't they all? Obviously this must have been the first time you have ever seen Kucinich speak. Otherwise you would know that 98% of the time he is calm and cool. See his speech he gave a couple days ago on Cspan to see what I mean. He really HAD to do this. His typical passiveness in the past has not been getting him anywhere fast. He has to overtake Dean and Kerry particularly.

"You can make a case forcefully with appearing out of control."

He was not out of control. If he was out of control he would have been taking swings at people, or something of that nature.

[CWebster]

27. Didn't see it

but it sounds like a reaction to the Tweety treatment.

[Mairead]

28. Har! I'm listening to the replay

And just caught Sweeney's 'Governer ...er, President Bush' :evilgrin:

[Mairead]

35. my take on it all

wooo...good jobs questions!

Edwards did what I'll call a 'fiscal conservative' (fc) move: he talked about giving tax breaks to companies who keep jobs here.

CMB just talked in generalities...that was disappointing because I *really* want her to do well.

Gep is very ...practiced... isn't he :( Perhaps it came from that stunning reception he got on introduction. Pity he didn't really answer the question.

(the up-and-down sound system is driving me mad)

Graham another fc move: 'all future trade agreements'.

Lieberman is hopeless.

'I had a non-union cab driver'! Yahoo Al!

Dennis didn't get as big a response to his NAFTA/WTO proposal as I thought he would. It was positively restrained compared to what it merited.



Healthcare questions didn't seem as strong

I thought Dean was a bit disingenuous, citing all the single-payer countries and then putting out his own plan as though it were equivalent.

Gep is bit wobbly, but I liked his 'moral issue' statement.

CMB got a good response for single-payer, I thought. She's also being clear on the current costs and the bogey that single-payer won't pass. Nice applause at the end.

Dennis -- any leader should go to the people to get support. 'Tax cuts are not a great moral cause'. 'Howard, if you'r not going to cut the Pentagon, you're going to cut social spending' 'we're paying for universal but not getting it'. Again, less applause than I would have expected.

Lieberman 'it's great to promise the world, but then you've got to deliver something today'. 'i'm for step by step--kids first'. 'Greatest anxiety: what if I lose my job', promises to decouple

Kerry -- very nice plan, it sounds. But *very* mild applause. That surpised me.

Al -- make healthcare a RIGHT. We need HR29(?) healthcare as Const. right. ooOOOOOooo hacked at Dennis 'i'm not going to attack my colleagues, i thought we weren't going to do that til Sept', and got applause for that.



Social Security & corp. accountability --good questions

Edwards -- what about people at the top taking care of themselves while doing over their workers. we need pension parity, fix ceo pay, fix book-cooking, democratise BODs so workers have a seat at the boardroom table.

Graham - Bush has sliced and diced us. How does one generation treat another. First secure s.s., no privatisation. Increase the cutoff for ss tax. All pensions should be guaranteed by the public.

Dean - wealthy Amers. should be paying their fair share -- remove the ceiling. GOOD stuff on unionisation, and nice applause for it. Portable pensions (Goddess, how long have I been hearing that one!)

Dennis - his aggression makes sense if you're aware of how he's been taking in the ear, but it's a little too much otherwise.

That's twice Kerry's overflowed his time, but his points on overcomp were stunning


Edu

Graham -- generalities, though he claims it's based on an actual plan that will fix things 'by the prez's 5th year(!!) in office'

Gep -- Bush is cutting taxes, but cutting states too, so states raise taxes. Public will cover 60% of (something). 'if paid edu is good enough for the marines, it's good enough for teachers'

Al -- 'the role of government is not to select students, it's to see all students have equal access to edu' 'bush gave us a tax *shift* -- a tax on wc people so that wealthy people could get a break' 'can't find corp crooks but can investigate every labor leader' HUGE applause!!

Lieberman -- 'i will not reappoint Ashcroft' 'nothing has been better for people than public schools' 'pay teachers as professionals--nobody does more important work' 'but i'm still up for vouchers'(boos!)'sorry, i'm going to say what i think'


Right to join a union -- good questions!!

BE - i'll guess the people we saw are not going to be selected 'empl of th month'

CMB - unions are a *fundamental* right. fights for soc just must not be compromised

Dean - wwwoOOOooo here's his lie about retirement age, and it is a clear lie. And he sounded so sincere, too. Bad memory?

Edwards - I have, along with DK, the best voting record for worker issues. Ban the hiring of perm replacem workers TODAY

DK - 'workers White House' 'right to work is right to work for less' 'repeal taft-hartley' 'executive order: 50% of workers auto create a union'

Al - we need FEDERAL laws and penalise states as we did with civil rights laws. 'labor IS the interest of this party' 'labor is the FAMILY of this party' 'if we don't we're going to go on being beaten'


Closing

Graham - Bush has lost trust of am people (would that it were so!) repeatedly 'used misleading information' 'we have a pinocchio prez' 'growing the economy? tell that to the 3M people who've lost their jobs' 'are we really surprised?' (no no no)

Edwards - 'GWB comes from a different place-where wealth is protected, not work respected' 'I believe in an Am where son of mill worker can beat son of prez'

Dean - 'opposed the war in Iraq' (what about that 60-day deal?) 'we can't beat Bush by being like him' hmmmm?

Lieberman - rather canned, badly overflowed

Gep - dad was a Teamster and milk-truck driver, mom was secy. I've tried every year to rep working people. B has declared war on wp

Al - 'not only win an election but win a direction' 'we need to build coalitions' 'i came when it was time to put blood and sweat on the line' 'i'm the conservative - fighting to conserve rvw...'

Kerry - 'every one who went up those (wtc) stairs was a member of a union' 'having a skilled navy pilot land you on a carrier in a borrowed suit does not make up for losing 3M jobs'

CMB - 'bush regime has the nerve to classify halliburton as a small business' 'together we can take the 'men only' sign off the whitehouse door'

What a pity the electrical storm clobbered Dennis's closing . But the anticipatory applause was nice

[Trek234]

29. .

.

[robbedvoter]

30. It was supposed to be a forum, NOT a debate. DK was

attending a different event than everyone else.

[revcarol]

32. My opinion: he just wanted to point out the bulls***.

Everyone was appearing 'oh so friendly' to labor, when all the time some were taking stances that HURT WORKERS. SOMEONE HAD TO POINT THIS OUT.Good for DK!!

[JohnKleeb]

42. I agree with you

I hope he gets a boost because of this, sometimes you go to fight, and you know many Deannies love Dean for doing exactly this, and when Dennis did this to Dean they freaked out some of them. Personally flame me whatever, but Dean has some gaul saying that he represents Wellstone's democratic wing of the party. They call DK a waffler and look at Dean, the guy makes Clinton look liberal on things, to get Dean is a 90, to get Kerry is a 135, and to get DK is a 180 guess what I want. The 180, some say he cant win, principles I think our more important, Dean wont be doing anything revolutionary as president.

[killbotfactory]

33. What was Kucinich like back when NAFTA passed?

I don't think you'll like the answer.

[Scottie72]

34. I also love DK!!

A couple of months ago I was drawn into the Dean camp. I liked a lot of what he had to say. Though I did assume quite a bit about his views. I started to line up the canidates and found that I aggree with DK on the issues.

I did a little experiment the other day. I think someone else mentioned this but I went to all the sights to see how easily I could find out how the canidates are on GLBT issues. It is not the most important issue in this election, but since I am a gay man I find it to be somewhat important. There were only two canidates that I could easily find the issue and that was DK and Dean. Dean took I think one more click to find. On DK's website there is a link right there named "gay issues". I had to hunt to find any mention of it on the other canidates websites. Some eluded to it, and on many it's absence was quite disturbing. I find it quiet heartbreaking that so many Democratic canidates seem imbarrassed to even mention GLBT issus or just have it burried inside their website.

DK is right on all the issues. Can he win the nomination? probalby not. Dean is good on most of the issues. Can Dean win the nomination? yes Can he win the election? At this point I would have to say yes.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

37. He's no liberal, ask Dennis!

heh, I like it. The DLC and DLC policy-sympathizers see Kucinich and his platform as their number one enemy in the Democratic party - they want us to move right-wing on the economy, and adopt "pro-business" i.e., pro-corporate policies. Doesn't anyone remember the history of the Democratic party since Carter?

Carter ran as a "new Democrat" and couldn't win against Reagan - Mondale was a liberal, but adopted the pose of a "New Democrat" - and lost - Dukakis was an honest to God New Democrat - and lost.

Clinton was a New Democrat that posed as a progressive and won. It seems that the DLC's intention isn't to win elections, but to make sure progressives don't.

Saying the DLC is secretly Republican I think is false - they are pro-corporate Democrats, and promote the policies of their corporate sponsors.

[chadm]

38. I agree that democracy is shot to hell here...

I had the honor of watching the Slovak debates last election, and was shocked to see honest opinions expressed by a wide range of candidates in an open manner. The US could learn a thing or two about democracy from this former Eastern Block country. Sad.

As for Kucinich's plan...I wouldn't be surprised to see him go Green if he doesn't win the Democratic nomination. I think he's burning his bridges in that corrupt Party and will choose to leave.

[Dover]

40. Agree. The Dem Party will thwart any truly progressive people or ideas

They have, under current leadership, moved decidedly to the right...probably under corporate sponsorship.

Too much baggage and too conservative for Kucinich. He would do well to find a new home and take the other progressives with him if they can't get a foothold within the Dem party. And the Dem leadership would like nothing better.

[JohnKleeb]

41. Slovak you say? I am part

Good for them even if they are electing people who side with Bush. I dont want him to leave, hes the part of the party I love most, the progressive wing. I dont think he will go Green, he says he will support the democrat, and now I hear Dean is saying the party will be divided if he loses the primary, sigh and some of them accuse us of being Greens, I am a democrat who has green policies keep in mind.