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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:29 PM
Original message
Chaos in Iraq is what the Bushits want!
I heard a history professor from the University of CA at Irvine who had just returned from Iraq (and fallujuh) on KPFK.org today and he seemed convinced that the CPA and the Bushits are deliberately provoking the uprisings, etc.; that it serves their ultimate interest to foster chaos in the middle east.He reasoned that they seemed to be doing everything 'wrong' and yet he pointed out -- they're not that stupid! He figured the administration would probably keep getting away with their mess in Iraq in the view of the American people (although he said they're not fooling the rest of the world at all); they'll get away with it by basically saying : "look, we're trying to give these people democracy but muslims and arabs are too dense to get it." In the meantime, the chaos is making a lot of money for all the 'corporate' interests -- it's a long term cash cow! As Ledeen (the neo-con godfather) has said over and over they don't want stability in the mid-east; they want it fragmented and impotent and israel in control. Something to consider.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sadly, I'm afraid you're right.
Too bad there isn't a strong world government, to get rid of the rotten apples.

Kanary
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't think so.
The plan was to "cut off the head of the snake" and invade Baghdad. The next day everyone would go to work and it would be business as usual with us installing a puppet government. Remember Rummy saying we might be able to turn it over to them last summer? * cares more about being president THAN ANYTHING. They said we would be greeted as liberators. It's not going to fly with the American people that they got it all so wrong. The more chaos, the more his poll numbers go down. You can't run as a "war president" if you're losing the war.

They are incompetent. In the beginning, they were so greedy and full of themselves and their great victory that they forgot one thing - the Iraqi people.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Of course this is exactly what they want. They want to take out what they
perceive to be the opposition to their transition plans, killing them is just icing on the cake. Can't have any of these damn troublemakers around when they had over the government to Chalabi.

But I think this will be another horrible miscalculation by these fools. The Iraqis are never going to forgive or forget this bloody mess. And neither will the rest of the Middle East. This is a war that we can't possibly win, not in the short or the long run. You notice they've announced that some of the troops that were due to leave are now having their time in Iraq extended indefinitely, haven't you? That says pretty much everything that needs to be said.
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King of New Orleans Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. No, they're arrogant and incompetent
Which is why they have no capacity to recognize when things are going wrong until it's too late.
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Undercutter Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. that's
a far-fetched conspiracy theory. these uprisings might very easily cost bush the reelection. i doubt he is a kamikadze.

so i am not really going to consider this, sorry
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. See, that's where he's wrong. They are that stupid.
Oh, wait. "Israel in control."

I have some tiny vestige of a sense of humor. I am picturing the flowers and cheers as Israel rolls into Baghdad. Yeah, that would be peaceful. If you don't mind having a live grenade in your mouth. (That is how one coalition man died, isn't it?)

Israel cannot ever be in control of the Middle East. That's one of the reasons they react so strongly to every attack. This is going to be a difficult concept because they teach it in International Politics 101: A weak nation must respond strongly and immediately to any attack. A strong nation can do whatever the hell it wants. Israel is the classic example of a weak nation.

Israel is surrounded by what? 100,000,000 Muslims? How many Israelis?

The neocons are entitled to their world domination fantasies. The Jewish neocons have, sadly, over-identified with their World War II oppressors, forgetting where they ended up and what a mess they made of their country.

You, too, are free to believe whatever ridiculous Pinky and The Brain plot you please.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. Everything is going exactly according to plan.
It is exactly what the PNAC wants. Expect a draft and a military buildup.
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David Dunham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. Wrong. The US public holds Bush accountable for Iraq.
That's why he has lost 9 points in the Rasmussen poll since Friday.
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Gloria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. Mark LeVine?? Here is an article by him on this topic, in the current WMW
1//Asia Times Online April 6, 2004

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FD06Ak01.html



SPEAKING FREELY: THE CHAOS THEORY IN ACTION

Speaking Freely is an Asia Times Online feature that allows guest writers to have their say.

By Mark LeVine
Mark LeVine is assistant professor of history at the University of California, Irvine. He is the co-editor, with Pilar Perez and Viggo Mortensen, of Twilight of Empire: Responses to Occupation (Perceval Press, 2003) and author of the forthcoming tentatively titled Why They Don't Hate Us: Islam and the World in the Age of Globalization (Oneworld Publications, 2004).


It is perhaps hard for Americans to understand their occupation of Iraq in the context of globalization. But Iraq today is clearly the epicenter of that trend, and in this context chaos is king. Here, military force was used to seize control of the world's most important commodity, oil. While corporate prospectors allied with the US search the country like safari hunters on elephants for any opportunity to profit from Iraq's misery - that's how conspicuous they are - inside the Green Zone their innocuous-looking counterparts draft regulations for privatizing everything from health care to prisons.

It is chaos that makes this whole system possible. Without the chaos, Iraqis would not allow the country to be sold off wholesale, or allow the US troops to remain after the June 30 "transfer" of sovereignty. Without chaos, there is little reason to assume that the imposition of neo-liberal globalization, which has wreaked such havoc in so many other countries of the developing world, would be in the process of entrenchment in Iraq. Without the chaos, there would be more reporting on the appalling conditions in the hospitals and schools, which are violations of the US obligations as occupying power under the Geneva and Hague Conventions.

(SNIP)

It is also chaos that allows the mainstream press to focus on the overt violence without addressing what an unmitigated disaster the occupation is viewed holistically. As I was writing this article, I received a call from a major TV news program to join a panel on Falluja. After a 40 minute pre-interview, the producer decided that I "didn't fit into the mix" of the guests he was putting together, which wound up being three middle-aged men: a retired general, colonel and a professor, none of whom had driven on the road to Falluja, and none of whom dared discuss the roots of the deepening quagmire in Iraq.

If Iraq is sliding toward chaos, this is exactly where most Iraqis believe the US wants them to be. A prominent Iraqi psychiatrist who has worked with the CPA and US military explained to me that "there is no way the United States can be this incompetent. The chaos here has to be at least partly deliberate." The main question on most people's minds is not if his assertion is true, but why. In this context, the sending of foreign contractors into Falluja in late-model SUVs with armed escorts - down a street clogged with traffic where they would literally be sitting ducks - only feeds suspicion that the US is deliberately instigating more violence as a pretext for "punishment" and further chaos courtesy of the US military.

(SNIP)

If we realize that companies like Blackwater Security services (whose personnel were killed in Falluja) constitute a $100 billion a year business, it's hard to imagine how the people in charge - all well-trained military personnel with lots of combat experience - couldn't foresee they were sending their people into a death trap. Or is it possible that they are that arrogant and that ignorant? I'm not sure which is worse.

Colgate University professor Nancy Ries describes the chaos in Iraq as "sponsored chaos", which fits into the broad definition of chaos theory as an ordered system or purpose underlying seemingly random events. That is, war and occupation are wonderful opportunities for corporations to make billions of dollars in profits, unchecked by the laws and regulations that hamper their profitability in peace time.



MORE
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. I've read this article
I believe there ARE some people who think EXACTLY this way.
Bush is no doubt clueless, but the people who manipulate him aren't.
IMO there are some people in power who want the situation to disintegrate. To underestimate the evil is a mistake. They would be more than happy to provoke more terrorist attacks. We are talking about psychopathic killers with the world's deadliest army under their control. They care not a wit who dies.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
10. Check out this article published just before the war last year
Edited on Thu Apr-08-04 01:13 AM by Emillereid
about the neo-con plans:

Bush's Axis of Upheaval

By Jim Lobe, AlterNet
March 18, 2003

<snip>
Despite the stirring rhetoric, however, there is evidence that democracy may not be an essential part of the neoconservative grand vision for the Middle East. The breakdown of national states and the chaos that could result may be just as acceptable an alternative for the some in the Bush administration and the men who are shaping its foreign policy.


<snip>



"I think we're going to be obliged to fight a regional war, whether we want to or not," Ledeen added. "It may turn out to be a war to remake the world."


<snip>
But the prospect of chaos may not be unattractive to neo-conservatives like Perle, Ledeen, Wolfowitz and his deputy, Douglas Feith.




In fact, some analysts suggest that, in the probable event that democracy does not sweep the region, the default option fragmentation and disintegration of Arab states corresponds all too neatly with the long-held dreams of some on the Israeli right. Such a scenario was spelled out in an influential article published on the eve of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 by Oded Yinon, who at that time was attached to Israel's foreign ministry. Published by the World Zionist Organization, the paper, "A Strategy for Israel in the 1980s," urged policies that promote the dissolution of Arab states into different ethnic and sectarian groupings. It also expressed the hope that the war then raging between Iran and Iraq would result in the break-up of the latter into at least three states for the three major groups Kurds, Sunnis, and Shi'ites.



"(Sharon's) head was full of grand designs for restructuring the Middle East, the creation of an Israeli 'security zone' from Pakistan to Central Africa, the overthrow of regimes and installing others in their stead, moving a whole people (the Palestinians) and so forth," he wrote last Fall. "I can't help it, but the winds blowing now in Washington remind me of Sharon. I have absolutely no proof that the Bushies got their ideas from him, even if all of them seem to have been mesmerised by him."




It is not necessary for Bush to be enchanted with Sharon simply because some of his closest advisers, including Perle, Feith, and David Wurmser (who now works on post-invasion Iraq in the State Department), were already working toward a similar scenario in 1996 when they prepared a memorandum for Sharon's Likud rival, former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu. In addition to the idea of ousting Saddam Hussein and restoring the Hashemite monarchy in Iraq, the paper touted re-establishing the "principle of pre-emption" against Syria and groups in Lebanon, in part by securing alliances with different ethnic and tribal groups within these nations.
<snip>

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15413

I think we underestimate our enemy to think the neo-cons are stupid. We need to think of this as Bryzinski's chess game -- not just the next news cycle checker game. I for one take them at their word. Poll numbers dropping in April leaves a long time for all kinds of things to happen -- including thawing out bin Laden, another 'terrorist' attack, another war -- remember these guys were itching to go to Iran ('real men go to Tehran). Rove's got a lot of money to spend and besides there's always his friends at Diebold -- or a crisis that necessitates the cancellation of the election.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. yup bush says "war time president" to often...he will cancel the election
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
12. Agreed. They are trying to Reshape the Whole ME - they SAID SO
condi describe the situation just after 911 as an opprotunity to redraw the map not seen since the end of wwII :puke:

i take them at their word and EVERYTHING i have witnessed since 2000 clearly shows a pattern of RADICAL POLICY to DESTABILIZE all precedent that our WAY OF LIFE and NATIONAL SECURITY POLICY has been based on for more than half a centuary.

it's either that or they are working for UBL since he couldn't have scripted better himself :argh:

:crazy:

peace

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Unknown Known Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
13. This is exactly what Kevin Phillips has said in
"American Dynasty". The BFEE have always been proponents of chaos and destabilization around the world - it benefits war profiteering!
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
15. even if you're right, I don't think they expected/wanted this
what's going on right now is the potential to seriously kick America's ass. Which is the last thing they want.
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Stone_Spirits Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. it's no accident
PNAC
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-04 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
17. I really think Chimp and his gang are just idiots
they're to stupid to have come up with a plan like that.
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