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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:59 PM
Original message
Brutal.
A womans education must therefore be planned in relation to man. To be pleasing in his sight, to win his respect and love, to train him in childhood, to tend him in manhood, to counsel and console, to make his life pleasant and happy, these are the duties of women for all time and this is what she should be taught while she is young.'

Rousseau, (1762) Emile


Question: have we honestly really progessed much since 1762 when this sentiment was common? Or have we just become more sophisticated in the way we phrase the exact same sentiment?
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. The difference is, today, we would say
about a woman who devoted herself to all those things:

"She's his bitch."

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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. *snarf*
Very, very funny.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. exactly! women are still "bitches" today
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Yep.
And an awful lot of "progressive" men like it that way.

I saw a tract on a web site run by a fundamentalist training-camp for women (well, they consider themselves a "home" for out-of-control teenage girls).

http://www.hephzibahhouse.org/tracts/020EndangeredSpeci...

I'm a Christian, and I find their stuff horrifying.

As Barbara Kingsolver says in The Poisonwood Bible, "There are Christians, and there are Christians." :evilgrin:
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I love it how churches and this male-dominated society feels that
they have the right to tell us how women should act, think, and what she should say, etc.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. then fight back
banning words makes you appear weak
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. changing language helps change societial thoughts
take for instance, no woman could imagine that she could be a "chairman" because that word meant only men could be "chairman," but second-wave feminism helped change words like that, so gender wouldn't keep women from getting those positions.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. the word wasn't banned or outlawed
minds were opened, new words were started up...that's how it is done...
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. by not using "n*gger" or "faggot," we learned we can't dehumanize
people. By continuing to use the word "bitch" as a sexist slur, we continue to dehumanize women based on her gender.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. as a personal attack, it's not good
but I guess Jon Stewart is a bigot, what can ya do?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. the appropriate term is sexist....many men don't realize they help
perpetuate sexism with language.
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. darlin', you're more patient than I am
They want to call us bitches because it gives them a route of power. Language and words have power, and if they can call us bitches, they don't have to debate our ideas, reply to our arguments, etc.

It corresponds perfectly the language used around race -- if Dr. King was a philosopher, a statesman, a visionary, etc., then they would have to debate him intellectually -- and lose.

If Dr. King was just an uppity n*gger, they could ignore what he said and dehumanize him.

Many men on DU are no different -- it's just much more socially acceptable to be sexist than to be racist.

We have to do what African-Americans have done. By using their political power, they became a huge voting bloc and demanded a voice. We have to get GOP women to see the error of their ways. 51% is a voting bloc that can sway every election, every time.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. again, very excellent points...
by continue to calling us "bitches," they continue to refuse talking or debating intelligently with women without having to call them names based on their gender.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. Any slur does that, even the "nicknames" we use on DU
When we call Republicans by other nicknames, or use the disgusting twists for Colin Powell or Rush Limbaugh, we are dehumanizing, and that undermines the whole thing of what most of us are fighting for. If we can dehumanize the enemy, they can dehumanize us, or dismiss us as no different in essence than them. If we set better examples, across the board, by not only avoiding sexist and racist terms, but derogatory terms towards even people we don't respect, then we are different, and are demonstrating what we are preaching.

And yes, men on DU are extremely sexist. What is this fascination with male and female genitalia and the obsession with associating those with traits of strength? When I see "stones" or their size and hardness used to symbolize courage, I wonder what my daughters are supposed to use for courage. What examples should they follow? Should they try to be men?

Discuss people as individuals, not as categories. Rice is bad not because of some trait or name she shares with her gender but because she's incompetent. Byrd isn't courageous because of anything he has that women don't have.

Eh, sorry about the preaching. For the record, I voted against banning the word. I would still not use it, not to refer to a person.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Close...
If she doesn't do all those things we say:

"She's a bitch."

Ok, not around my house!
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. I've worked in situations where it was mostly men.
Women who do all those things are referred to by them as "my bitch," and women who refuse to devote themselves to the men in their lives like that are "a bitch."

Potato, po-tah-to.

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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. It's a word I never use.
I usually speak well of women, and tend to call them by their names.

If a female really pisses me off, I go for the C-word.

Bitch is neither here nor there.
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southerngirlwriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. What do you want?
Applause?

:eyes:
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Our they question her sexuality...
nt
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
33. that doesn't make sense
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nope.
Each new generation of female enablers keeps this going because the mothers of the men in question don't teach them that women are equal to them and not house servants.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. that's true...our mothers do reinforce sexist patterns and sexist
gender roles in our society. It's up to women to educate their daughters as well as their sons about the effects of ALL sexism.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Ummm, sl..... last time I looked...
*FATHERS* had a role in this, too.

geeeeeeeeeeeeez.

:hi:

Kanary
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. you're right, fathers and mothers do play a role in perpetuating sexism
I had to get both my parents to see the injustice of sexism in order for them to get the idea that some things they'd believed or said was encouraging sexism. Like when my dad would say, "Let boys be boys" or "why don't you act like a lady?" And also when my mom would tell me to sit up straight, cross my legs, and act like a "lady." It's all about conforming to the patriarchial ideal of what a woman is supposed to be.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. BS -
People are different - get over it. You can't legislate culture.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Okeeee Dokeeee... I'm over it now
but, my doorbell's broken, so don't come knockin' when you got a problem with this "loving" culture, eh?

Toodles


Kanary
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. we can and have legislated racism and homophobia, then why
can't we legislate sexism?
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. Mothers, fathers, sons and daughters
The stereotypes are perpetuated by both parents on both genders of children. Kids learn by watching what their parents do, how they interact. Often even women who teach their daughters verbally to not buy into that routine show them otherwise by behaving that way towards their own spouse. The few kids who see women not acting out that role see their friends' parents doing it, and learn to think their own parents are odd. Plus, their eventually boyfriends or girlfriends expect them to fit into these roles. The training is deeply ingrained.

I've tried very hard to break these stereotypes in my own daughters. My wife and I are independent of each other, do our own things, and don't follow pre-scribed stereotypes. I cook, I shop, my wife occassionally mows the lawn. She makes more than me, I run the errands. I do outside work, too, she does inside. I never ever ask her to get my a beer (not that I drink them) or make me a sandwich. When raising my oldest daughter, I was a grad student, so I changed her diapers, and stayed home with her, and carefully chose what she watched. I never forbid her to watch any movie or TV show, but I chose to watch movies that had gender-neutral lead characters, or female lead characters in non-traditional roles. Even the games we played were neutral. She had stuffed animals instead of dolls, we played catch and hide and seek and stuff like that. And I dressed her neutrally.

There were no roles for her outside of my house. When I brought her to parks, moms assumed I was "babysitting," and continually interupted me to correct my mistakes. They would pull her off monkey bars and tell me little girls shouldn't play on them. Or often, they would assume she was a boy, and team their sons up with her. I never corrected them (her name is Morgan, which can be a boys or a girl's name), never made an issue of gender, so as not to emphasize the differences.

Because she did not fit into a girly stereotype, she had no way of identifying with girls, so she started believing she was a boy. This traumatized my own father, who went into hysterics that she could make such a horrible mistake. His hysterics traumatized her, but she kept telling everyone she was a boy. I didn't correct her, but I didn't tell her that, either. Sometimes she would ask, and I would say "You can be anything you want to be."

She's ten. Movies and music and culture and grandparents and friends have worn her down. She's a girl, she dresses in girl's clothes, and she's starting that shift to believing she shouldn't have to study as hard because girls don't do that. But she still has an independent streak. She can play dolls or sports. She thinks her girl friends are silly for their obsession with makeup and such.

So it has paid off some. But even though her parents fought the stereotypes, they are so deeply ingrained in society that she can't break them entirely. Women are just as responsible, probably more so, than men, in that regard. At least she has so far avoided a lot of hangups that girls get trying to be "girls." She's an incredible, wonderful person, though she could try harder in school. And I don't think she'll start wanting to serve men anytime soon. So there's hope.

One odd side effect of it all. Since I raised her, she wants to be like me. Since I do all the cooking, she wants to learn to cook. I didn't forsee that one. It's a case of something that looks traditional but actually isn't.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. my dad also cooks, and I grew up watching him cook
He'd let me stir the soups, and such when I was five. He would pull up the stool for me to stand up and put his apron on me. It hung all the way to the floor, and I loved helping my dad cook. I've also helped him with carpentry projects because none of my brothers are interested in that. So my dad includes me more in so-called masculine pursuits than he does with my brothers.
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. We have progressed at my house
That crap wouldn't fly here. :-)

http://www.wgoeshome.com
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. really freaked me out about Rousseau - educ for boys: teach/
train his individuality

BUT all girls get same educ: how to please men

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. that's what I find abhorrent is that our society is still about women
pleasing men.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. that's not how I look at women
and I don't think our society, as a whole, is like that either - I believe this is an example of the us vs. them mentality fostered at small, cloistered, ivory tower liberal arts schools like Smith - Oh, we are so enlightened here, and that mean ol' society is so backwards!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. attacking my college is not going to help you understand that
our society is indeed sexist.
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Ysabel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. right wing attack on education...
similar to - the right wing attack on women...

-------------

- don't mind me - i'm just an uneducated low class no account cab driver...
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. what-eva
I'm talking about certain small, liberal arts colleges - the ones that really fostered the PC movement in the nineties. You know exactly what I'm talking about don't muddy the waters with insults.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. another right-wing attack on the word "liberal"
I'm liberal and proud of it! :eyes:
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Ysabel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. actually...
the pc movement started in madison wisconsin - where i live...

don't even give me that "muddy the water" shit...

everybody knows that attacking education is a right wing thing...



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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. exactly----I'm proud of being in college, and being intelligent
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Hemprus Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. I think
women can be complacent in our society as they wish to be. Don't we all have the ability for education? Whether you have to work to get it or its given to you. Women are as strong as they want to be. In 1762 women only had the right to serve men, but today that is not the case. There may be different social or physiologic reasons why some women will still stay in the before above mentioned role, but I would say that a women has the choice to do with her life what she wants.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
30. Bad as a social order, admirable as a personal choice
The problem with Rousseua's thinking on our modern world, is that it advocates the teaching of prescribed choices to girls. That does suck, even in the manner which it continues today.

Personally though, a woman who chooses to pursue such a life is admirable, if, I suppose, she finds a man who respects and loves her and who is as equally unselfish in his devotion to her and their family.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Don't soften the language
He called it the DUTY of all woman for ALL time - in other words, its the only thing "they" are designed/good for...

Even in choosing to devote life to family, spouse, and whatever else - no ones life should be exclusively defined as to serve anyone else. That's what he's saying when he speaks of "pleasing" - servitude of a second class gender.

Desiring freely to make another - any other - happy, out of an abundance of personal freedom and love is a normal natural part of any life. And guess what, that should be the desire of every husband too. It is not a one way street, and it is not the kind of slavery life R. was advocating.

There is a difference between desiring to give and participate in the life of another out of free choice and great love, and defining your very existence and purpose in life as only to serve someone else with no self-identity apart from that servitude. That's the difference.

Even "stay at home mom's" (I use that term broadly) deserve healthy selfhood. :)
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
34. i am, like, way more progressive than this
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 07:39 PM by seabeyond
cant speak for everyone though. and since i am married obviously my husband is more progressive than this, adn in so doing, my two boys will be also
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. can you explain a little further?
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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
45. This discussion is going nowhere
And we're taking a break from this divisive topic for a while.

Locking.
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