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We Have Two Choices: Pull Out Now, Or Be Thrown Out Later

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Plaid Adder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:42 PM
Original message
We Have Two Choices: Pull Out Now, Or Be Thrown Out Later
This is how I see it at the moment. Of course that could change.

I understand the argument that it woudl be irresponsible to just leave after fucking things up in Iraq to the extent that we have. For a long time I agreed with it.

However, for a while now I have been coming around to the conclusion that all our troops can do over there is make things worse. We are at this point so much a part of the problem that we cannot be the ones to enforce the solution. We have no mandate, no legitimacy, and any popular support we once had is probably now as exploded as that mosque we just blew up.

It is going to be very hard for the crowd in charge to accept this, but the fact of the matter is that we do not control the situation there. Certainly not now; and my feeling is that we never really *did* control it. The only way we could have made this transition work was to get the cooperation of the leaders who had real support (as opposed to, say, Chalabi) and work out some kind of power-sharing agreement. Paul Broemer clearly was not the man to do that; and now we see the results.

The only way we are going to bring democracy to Iraq at this point is by uniting the Sunnis and Shiites in a collaborative effort to kick our asses to the curb. Looks like that's what this is. Mission fucking accomplished.

At this point, at least, we have the option of controlling our exit. By June 30 we may not even have that any more.

We are leaving eventually. The only question is when, and how many people will die on both sides. I figure the best thing for everyone is to do it sooner rather than later. And then, either the opposing factions can work something out, or the UN or some other honest broker can faciliate something.

And of course this is the last thing that will ever happen. Nobody ever wants to surrender. The solution to violence is always more violence.

@#$!,

The Plaid Adder
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. There is a 3rd option:
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 06:45 PM by GOPisEvil
a long, slow, painful withdrawal.

(edited to change language.)
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. aka "Peace with Honor"...
Wonder if anyone will be stupid enough to use that phrase again?
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Hey, W tried to hire Kissinger for the 9/11 Commission...
...would you put it past them? Hell, they've already used "infinite justice" and "crusade".
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Hemprus Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Wouldn't it be great. No more blood shed!!
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Failed states are the real terra problem.
It would be nice of we could prevent Iraq from becoming (remaining?) one... but unfortunately I basically agree with your subject line.

:(
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. thats how i see it too ty/nt
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree, totally.
I've gone through the same transformation on this issue you have.

At best, we could be a doctor with black plague on his or her hands.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. The PNAC Plan is to NEVER Leave
All those fortified military bases Halliburton is building are for good reason. The plan has always been to set up fortresses from which to launch further agression. I'm assuming that's STILL their plan and they could care less about the chaos. As soon as those bases are finished, the troops will pulled back behind those walls and the rest of the country can go to hell. Mission accomplished.

Unfortunately the only way to get us out is to change OUR leadership and then go begging the rest of the world to forgive and trust us once again and send in an international coalition to take the heat off our troops. It will be long, slow, painful, bloody and costly, but that's our price for this massive fuck-up.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Now, if the Region goes Fundy, we are all truly screwed...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. Glad you have seen the light.
Armies do not fix things, they kill and destroy.
That might be necessary at times, but you need to be
clear about what your goals are. If it's peace and
democracy, an army is not the correct tool.
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greatauntoftriplets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. Bush! Pull out like your father should have.
Shades of the Tricky Dick Nixon era.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. Too bad the timing is so #9%+#+(#$!!!
Dennis Kucinich was saying this MONTHS ago, for all who would listen.

Could have voted for him, and now had a stronger voice.

Luckily, my state still can......

Kanary
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. If you don't use war control...
...you have to pull out at some point.

- The cycle of violence is bound to escalate in consideration of the fact that so many innocents are being slaughtered and called collateral damage.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. One other option

There are 22 to 26 Million Iraqis, let's offer each and every one
(man, woman, child) $10,000 US to quit shooting at us, plus an
extra $1000 for every assualt rifle or RPG launcher or 100 lbs of
exposive. No more than $400 B for the whole shootin match.

Then tell them to divide the country into three parts and put the
UN in charge of the oil with the proceeds of future oil sales to
be split equally per person.

Won't fix it, but will let us leave, and at a cost of only 2X the
current estimate of the crap that we are in.

Just my $.02 (or in this case, $1400 of more debt).

Oh, we should try to negoiate a fixed price for the oil for 10 years
at a price advantageous to us (in return for the $400 B), and then
we should spend another $400 B on renewable energy research so that
WE CAN LEAVE THESE PEOPLE ALONE and QUIT FUNDING THE REAL TERRORISTS!
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. And once we are booted out, what is the chance
that all Islamic nations in OPEC squeeze us into economic chaos?

We are already on the brink, this summer is going to be bad. And the oil break from * giving up our newly filled strategic reserve will not last the winter, we need to scream bloody murder when Bush* does this.

Because when the reserves run out, the second great depression will begin.
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mccormack98 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
14. There is another option that people won't like ...
First bring the Germans, French and Russians to the table and offer them a piece of the pie in exchange for troops. Afterwards, withdraw a large percentage of our troops. This will reduce our exposure. After that, bring in the Sunni and Shiite leaders and concede power to them. If they buy in, I am guessing that most of the violence will stop.

I am also guessing you won't end up with a democracy.

Bill

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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. at this point
we are fighting against everyone in Iraq while at the same time saying we are fighting for them.

It's damn ridiculous. It's time for the soldiers to quit.
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terisel Donating Member (217 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. I think we have few options.
For some time I have expected an ignominious withdrawal a la the final evacuation from Saigon.

I think Bush and Cheney and their cabinet are thoroughly discredited in Iraq and I believe the only way the US can stay in any capacity is for the current leadership-Bush administration, Bremer, Halliburton and most of the corporate presence to leave. Total withdrawal may be necessary but I think one big negative is that it will likely encourage extremists elsewhere.

An attempt to turn things around would require a new US leader and a new policy-including clear repudiation of the neocon dreams of empire and oil monopoly-but it may be too late to be successful.
In order to work the policy and implementation up to now would have to be regarded as Bush policy ( the Bush doctrine ) and not US policy.

The long hot summer is coming up and I don't see how any Bush initiative regarding Iraq is going to make it through to Inauguration Day.

The ball right now is in Bush and Cheney's court and the Republicans in Congress-realistically they have got the power to tell them it is time to go. I think they need to throw him out.

Johnson announced he wouldn't run for a second term but finished out his term with the Vietnam War continuing. I don't think that will work here. Bush, along with his administration, is the center of the storm. The US needs to break with Bush.

I figure this is a long shot because the Republicans as a group haven't impressed me as being wise. Also have too many Armageddon fantasizers among them.

However I believe in being prepared to take advantage of opportunity when it arises, and I think we should consider whom we would want to finish out Bush's term.

I know lots of people would think about McCain-but he bought into the war too easily. He is a brave man and honorable, but maybe not wise.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. once the pooch is f*cked, there's no way to undo it or set it right...
Time for the politicians to realize this. Time for John Kerry to realize it. I hope he's not the first democrat to continue Bush's war.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. From the Iraqis viewpoint, they see our troops occupying Their Land
protecting the Christian Evangelists from harm while they go about thumping bibles. They see us forcing Christian Religion in an Islamic Nation.

Boy, is this a Blunder or what?
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