The debacle in Iraq: This may be how mainstream America sees it.

[Raven]

I had a conversation with a good friend this morning. He is 58 years old, self employed. He spent 25 years in the Army Reserve and retired last year. His Reserve Unit was sent to Iraq last month. He has a 29 year old son in the Army who just got his orders to Iraq after having spent last year in South Korea. This boy's wife is expecting their first child right around the time he is scheduled to leave. My friend is a typical New Hampshire type...independent, fiscally conservative, patriotic and smart in a down-to earth sort of way.

This is what he said to me today: "I could get hundreds of us old guys to go over there and help America. We could stay behind the lines and cook and fix the vehicles and do whatever was needed to support the troops. That would maybe allow some of the young ones to go home for awhile. But, you know, we are there for the oil, that's all, just for the oil. We need to get our boys home."

What I found interesting and heartbreaking about his words was how conflicted my friend was. Loyal to America, concerned enough about the kids fighting over there that he would go himself if it would help. And yet, he absolutely had Bush nailed on motive.

I suspect that many Americans feel the same way. We all need to respect those feelings and, if we tap into them, Bush will be history in November.

[David Dunham]

1. You are exactly right.

[alcuno]

2. This explains that poll....

58% of Americans said it was right to invade Iraq. They don't want the soldiers to feel that they aren't doing the right thing, even if people think it.

42% think * is doing a good job in Iraq. This is the true # of people who think we should be there.

[DeepModem Mom]

4. Very perceptive --

[On the Road]

6. I Would Actually Like to See Blind Polls

using anonymous ballots. I bet the result would be different on a lot of questions.

A lot of people don't want to say, out loud, to some else that they don't support an American war. Even if they don't know the person and will never see them again. Response variable.

*             *           *

In college, I did a senior project in college on "perceptual defense." When a word is briefly flashed before people's eyes, they are less likely to identify it if it a "dirty" word. This supposedly showed that the brain recognizes the word subconciously but witholds that knowledge from the conscious mind.

Problem was, it was extremely difficult to distinguish this effect, if it exists, from response variables. Meaning that if you see something you THINK might be a dirty word, you are less likely to identify it to the experimenter because you'll feel stupid if you are wrong. Social feelings intrude into these situations, and they are difficult to disentangle.

[tom_paine]

3. As long as the voting systems are uncorrupted

For myself, given both the Manual and Electronic Disnfranchisement & Ballot Stuff Techniques pioneered in 2000 and 2002, I am VERY concerned.

Given that, I am concerned that Kerry will have to win by 10% in order to "win" by less than 1%.

And I am not alone AND our fears are not unfounded.

The only thing to do is work as hard a spossible for Kerry, then wait and see.

[JeebusH]

5. problem is that many people see the oil as worth dying over ....

or other people worth dying over it ... don't underestimated the selfishness and shallowness of the people of this country

[Raven]

7. I don't think so.

I think that most Americans know that the oil issue translates into profits for the fat cats...not for them. My sense is that most Americans are worried about the kids who have been sent over to Iraq with no hope of safety and less of a hope of winning. Americans want to win with the least amount of blood. They will not stand for this for long but they won't want to appear disloyal to the kids...they will jetison Bush but they won't criticize America or undermine the kids who are bearing the brunt of this.

I think we have to stop vetting our own minds here at DU and start trying to get into the minds of everyday Americans. We need to try to understand that dynamic if we are going to win.

[ihaveaquestion]

8. My Father-in-Law (ex, actually)

is a southern "democtrat" from Alabama. As racist and conservative as they come. But, he's also a Vietnam Vet with 3 tours of experience there and is rabidly against the war in Iraq. He can't hardly talk about it, he's that angry at Bush. It might have something to do with having two grandsons of draftable age - not to mention the two granddaughters, but I think it's more a leftover of knowing how useless the Vietnam war was. And, I know he's not alone.

[seabeyond]

9. i love that man raven

thank you for sharing the story with us

[kentuck]

10. Do you get the feeling that Bush Regime wants the nation "conflicted"

Because if they were not conflicted, it could spell serious trouble for Bush in November....

[orwell]

11. The Greatest Courage

Until people of all countries see all life as a precious gift, instead of bifurcating it into us and them, we will be forever at war.

The only battle that needs to be waged is in the darkened mind crying out for sunlight. This is a war that is rarely fought. It requires the greatest courage of all, the brave new world of the truth.

O

[Veggie Meathead]

12. Amen