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cheezus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:45 PM
Original message
I've completely turned around on cut-n-run
I've been against the war from the start, and protested it. Since it has started I've still been for reduced involvment, but took the view that we came in and screwed it up, we have to set it right. But given the way things have been going...

I'm sorry Iraqis. We just gotta leave. It was a mistake then, and it's a bigger mistake now. The only thing that can come of this is more violence. I don't see a way of cleaning this up, I don't see a way of winning. And if we CAN'T ever win, we might as well get out of there before more of our boys come home in body bags.

The solution to this is diplomatic. Things won't right themselves overnight. We need to get out, apologize, and lend (non military!) assistance. I think we owe for what we destroyed, but we don't owe lives.


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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Same thing with me.
Just a few days ago I was thinking we had to "fix" things. I just don't see that happening. We have to have a goal, in order to fix things. We don't. Screw it, let's leave.
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cheezus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. maybe if we HAD a plan
but "they'll greet us with flowers" didn't work out... so now we got nutin.

I liken this to the car I had sophomore year. There's only so much you can throw at it before you realize that you just have to cut your losses and let go.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. To have a plan, we have to have a goal
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 02:56 PM by BullGooseLoony
Our ideal goal is basically to have someone like Saddam in place. LOL it's just fucking ridiculous. These guys invaded without even knowing what they wanted to end up with. We took OUT the secular guy that was keeping the religious extremists at bay...Now what? God, just stupid as hell.

On edit: LOL ya see what I'm sayin? :P
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. And we didn't have a goal, I think, because the Bush
administration was never planning on leaving.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I read an interesting story from the Guardian today.
It talked about how British military leaders where fuming at US post war management. Named British military officials said Rumsfeld acted totally cavalier and refused to listen to common sense...
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. It's like when you're putting together a puzzle...
You have to have a picture of what the puzzle is going to look like when you're finished...These guys don't and didn't have any kind of picture...no goal to work toward...Who's supposed to be in charge, in the end, that we're alright with?

If it's going to be the Shiites, the majority, why not just hand it over to them now? Of course, we're NOT alright with them being in charge, which is why we're NOT handing it over...WTF?? What else are we gonna do?

I dunno...I just can't believe this...
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Suggestions from other countries
Now that they're on the front lines

Miller, the Polish prime minister, said Poland would stand by its commitments but that sending any more soldiers was out of the question.

Several coalition countries - among them Poland, Bulgaria and Japan - have suggested a bigger role for the United Nations or NATO. That would at least provide political cover to help them sell the idea to their publics.

Japan's top government spokesman, Yasuo Fukuda, urged the United Nations on Wednesday to intervene "at an early stage" to stop the violence.

"Rather than simply using force, we can consider other ways to stop the violence," Fukuda said without elaborating
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAI466QRSD.html
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Me too
Back in June I naively thought we would actually rebuild what we had destroyed and help them set up a democratic government, so I had the attitude of "as long as we're there, let's do it right". But now it's fucked up beyond my worst fears. Bush doesn't just make bad decisions, he executes them badly.
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King of New Orleans Donating Member (991 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. I guess i disagree
but by the time the time anyone capable of righting the mess gets into office, it will have deteriorated even further. We really need the slate wiped clean. Throw Chalabi and his cronies in the cell next to Saddam. Repair our relationship with the UN and allies like France and Russia. Open up the contract process to everyone. Make it possible (or palatable for NGOs to go in), etc...

Unfortunately the election is still 7 months away and we still have the Smirky McChimpster Amateur Hour "running" the show why Evil keeps plotting his next move down in the basement.
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Sandpiper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. We can't fix things now
Because we've lost the people. They don't want us to "fix" anything, they just want us gone.

The best thing we could do at this point would be, hand over control to the UN as quickly as possible, cut a check for the damage we've caused, and get the hell out of Dodge.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think it is still to early to judge..,.
As a supporter of the war in the first place, I have argued that it is pivotal to stay.

But, I hate to admit that recent events, culminating with the mosque bombing, is that the current administration are not up to it. Sharon running rampant in the Palestinian territories. Things are not looking good.

I am starting to lean in the direction, that I might have been wrong. It would be a disaster to leave. But, it might be an even bigger disaster to stay.

It might indeed be time to "cut and run" (With appologees to Redqueen).


But, it is still to early to judge.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Sorry, Kurt -- that option isn't open to you
As a supporter of the war in the first place, I have argued that it is pivotal to stay.

You can't advocate a track that fucks things up, and then advocate walking away. As someone who vigorously opposed the aggressor action against Iraq, I have stated numerous times a plan for assisting the Iraqis in rebuilding their country. It would be easy for me to talk of "cut and run", but I don't, because I know that it would not be the right thing to do.

You, OTOH, endorsed the unleashing of chaos upon Iraq despite all evidence beforehand that the situation WOULD rapidly deteriorate. To follow that up with even suggesting that you would endorse "cut and run" is just beyond the pale, IMHO.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I appreciate your opinion. But, for my part, I just don't know anymore.
I think the UN needs to be brought in ASAP. Not that the iraqi people neccesarily would like that so much, but it could at least serve to unite the rest of the world.

I heard earlier today that Blair is travelling to meet with Annan. Perhaps, reality is dawning on Downing street.

As a Blair fan, I have to say that if Blair had been in charge, and not Bush, the whole thing would have turned out a whole lot better.

Reports are scetchy from Iraq at the moment. Al Jazeera makes it sound like the whole country is recolting. Rumsfeld talks like it just a few thousand "deadenders". The truth is probable something in between.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Since you supported the war..
...do you have directions to your recruiting office?

Kanary
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Yes, that option IS open to Kurt
who are you to say that he cannot realize that those in power at this time have totally botched this entire situation and no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt???

He absolutely can have that option, and I, for one, am glad to see people on various sides of issues who are willing to listen to reason and believe what their eyes, rather than the spin, tell them.

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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. First Rule when you're digging a hole..
stop digging.

America should declare a ceasefire and initiate talks with the various factions in Iraq, under UN auspices. Set up a parliamentary system which allows imput from various factions.

The American corporations which have been plundering Iraq should be forced to leave so that Iraqis can develop their own economic future, again with representation from various factions.

Iraqis are uniting against America because we are now acting like the population is our enemy....not exactly a liberation and allow democracy scenario.

Our soldiers do not deserve to die for this, nor do any more Iraqis.

In America, the Congress negates the "bush doctrine" and restores the Constitutional power to declare war within the legislative body, where it belongs.

In addition, the House starts impeachment proceedings for all members of the Bush administration, especially the OSP crowd, for lying to Congress and to the American people.

This will signal to the rest of the world that we are serious about democracy, and not just spouting feel good phrases to allow us to pillage and plunder in the name of democracy.

Congress appoints a panel to work out ways to REALLY fight the war on terror --- a bipartisan panel with previous experience with this issue -- and Americans are informed about the real statistical threats of terrorism vs. car wrecks, for instance.

We return to sound fiscal policy by working to reduce the deficit caused by irrational tax cuts and focus on infrastructure spending, as needed, to build a strong American future.

I realize that none of this will happen as long as the repukes control everything, which is why we're all screwed until they are gone.
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. Well, hey, at least we're bringing the Sunnis and Shiites..
together! They're all starting to hate us more than they hate each other.
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Kanary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. Imagine that. What Dennis Kucinich said from the start.
Guess maybe he had some wisdom, eh?

Kanary
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yup.
Philosophically, I knew in my gut that he was probably right.

I thought we had to at least try, though, if there was any kind of hope. I guess I've completely lost all hope, at this point.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. DK? Wisdom?
We would be wise to listen to this guy.

EAST LANSING - Democratic candidate Dennis Kucinich told supporters here Thursday that he can get American troops out of Iraq in 90 days if he's elected president.

Kucinich, a U.S. representative from Ohio, said the United States should renounce any interest in Iraqi oil and improve its strained relations with other countries, setting the stage for United Nations peacekeepers to replace American soldiers.
snip----------

"Don't let anyone tell us that we're stuck there," he said. "This is the time for the United States to reach out to the world community. We can't do it alone".

http://www.lsj.com/news/local/031205_kucinich_1b-2b.htm...

Or:

Unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq is unjustified, unwarranted, and illegal. The Administration has failed to make the case that Iraq poses an imminent threat to the United States. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to Al Qaeda. Nor is there any credible evidence that Iraq possesses deliverable weapons of mass destruction, or that it intends to deliver them against the United States.

http://www.progressive.org/nov02/kuc1102.html
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Well, all I have to say
is "better late than never." It doesn't get DK to the whitehouse at this point, but it sure strengthens his position to have the light begin to dawn on Americans.

Of course, hindsight is always 20-20!
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
15. Agree completely. There is nothing the US can do that will be positive
We have lost all credibility in Iraq and in the world. They will fight us to the last man because we are wrong. WE are the bad guys. I'm sorry for those soldiers who thought and hoped they were doing something noble, but you are not, this is simply wrong and nothing short of leaving and allowing the UN to take over will help.
In addition to leaving, however, it is critical that ALL US corporations be kicked out and that the US pay reparations for the damage we have unlawfully inflicted. It will, and has, cost us dearly in so many ways.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. i have always been against opperation White Mans Burden
if you have read Tariq Alis Bush in Babylon you would see the long rich history iraqis have of resisting colonialism
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
21. There is only one other option to cut-n-run
Locking the entire country down using methods that would make Saddam look like Mother Teresa.

Cut-n-run does NOT have to be sloppy, though. There should be ways to minimize the damage.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm glad you're not in charge
there is no diplomatic solution with terrorists.

doubt it ? reference arafat
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. And I'd be glad you're not in charge, but unfortunately
it sounds as though you are.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
24. Iraqi's say "Who asked you? and don't let the tent door hit you
on the way out! BTW, leave that oil right there where it was. You've taken enough souvenirs. "
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