Was Che Guevara a mercenary?

[realdeal22k]

Does he rank with those mercenaries trying to liberate Iraq?

[Iceburg]

1. No...more like a member of Fidel's coalition of the willing

[realdeal22k]

6. Did he work for free?

Of did he get a stipend salary?

[rumguy]

8. Do some internet research, it's pretty easy.

www.google.com

[NoPasaran]

2. NO! He was an idealistic revolutionary

And what's with this "liberate Iraq" bullshit?

[realdeal22k]

7. Sorry...I forgot the quotes on "liberate"

It happens.

[NoPasaran]

11. Okay, I'll put down my flamethrower n/t

[ret5hd]

12. better keep it handy...

i have a feelin' you'll be using it.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rumguy]

16. anal cyst?

[ret5hd]

17. here...

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1340060#1340079

[rumguy]

19. ohh...poor little "anal cyst" limbaugh

life is so tuff for him

[rumguy]

3. Well did he have a CEO?

Huh?

[seventhson]

4. Not at all. His passion was liberation NOT money.

Read his writing. He loved us and died for it.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oasis]

18. "Freedom is not free" (eom)

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[H2O Man]

13. Could you please tell us

exactly where you think he may have been a "mercenary"? As in which country? Also, out of curiosity, what books by or about Che have you read? Just trying to figure out the context of your question. Thanks.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seventhson]

23. Che traveled across South America by motorcycle and ended up

after seeing the oppression of Latin America by the fascists and other capitalists, joined Castro's revolution. Not for money but for the liberation of an oppressed people. For the love of humanity.

He was a Native of Argentina where the wall street financed Nazis were in power when he was a kid. He was a doctor (actually a dentist, I believe)

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rumguy]

29. Would they be there minus generous compensation?

Answer: no.

[seventhson]

34. Not at all. In Che's case his motivation was the liberation

of oppressed people from colonialists.

In Iraq the mercenaries are promoting colonialism by the US and NOT the liberation of Iraq from Saddam (except in the sense that they are "liberating" it in the same way tht word is used to mean "steal")

This war is about the theft of Iraqi oil by Bush and his legions of bloodsucking oil vampires from wall street. It has nothing to do with liberation. Bush et al care not one wit for the people of Iraq. THAT is a fraudulent front and is senselessly condemning thousands of young Americans to needless death.

[TankLV]

42. And they were PAID mega bucks for their "services".

And, these services were limited to protecting Halliburton type looters of the Iraqi nation - on "no-bid" contracts - appointed "cooincidentally" by their former mob boss "the dick" Cheney.

Again, a definition:

Mercernaries: Paid, professional soldiers of fortune. They are in it for the money, not idealism, or some need to "help" society either. They have no problem killing children and women. They in all likelyhood laugh at it all and brag about their kills.

[H2O Man]

27. Che recognized the boundries of the indigenous peoples

of South and Central America. He was helping to liberate them. He was not a gun for hire. Do you see the relationship between Cuba and Central America? They are a bit closer on a map than Washington DC and Iraq.

[seventhson]

20. Che ""At the risk of sounding ridiculous... let me say..."

"At the risk of sounding ridiculous... let me say that a true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love."- Dr. Ernesto "Che" Guevara

[H2O Man]

22. Thank you, brother!

For those interested in the fuller text, that quote comes from "Socialism and Man in Cuba." Also, to understand the differences between Che' and a mercenary, read the chapter,"The Morale and Discipline of Revolutionary Fighters," in Reminiscences of the Cuban Revolutionary War, 1968, Monthly Review Press. I was hoping Sean Hannity was going to continue the discussion; maybe he had all the information Combs needs.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madrchsod]

24. no

[markses]

25. It's a good question

Although the questioning is, of course, too cute by far, the question itself does open up the possibility of discussion.

Let's go ahead and collapse the distinctions between Ernesto Guevara (hereafter, "EG") and our friends from Blackwater (hereafter "B"). To do this, we'll assume that both EG and B were:

1) Undertaking some combat or military/pseudo-military role in a country not their own;

2) Drawing some form of livelihood from said role, whether that consisted in food shared among comrades or electronic fund transfers into established bank accounts;

3)Committed to a project of liberation that was global in scope (i.e., both EG and B operated at least in part in the service of some principle, or imagined some for betterment toward which their actions aimed).

If all these are true, then how can we call EG a "freedom fighter," etc. and judge his actions and motivations "positively"/romantically, while we call B mercenaries, and judge their actions and motivations negatively. We might also add a fourth similarity:

4) Both EG and B were ambushed by their enemies, brutally murdered, and displayed for propaganda purposes.

The true hook here rests on #3. What the question has shown is that the struggle over the definition is in fact a struggle over the competing projects. At the end of the day, we have to ask whether the kind of values that inform EG's project (however utopic or dystopic the end may be) are better or worse than the kinds of values that inform B's project (however utopic or dystopic the end may be). At the end of the day, I favor the democratic values put forth by EG over the cynical security state values of B, or - as Langston Hughes put it

"...the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak."

You have to argue for either in any case. The discussion should be about values, and which values are better. Perhaps the question on the table here, while eye-rollingly obvious in its petty provocation, may at least provoke real arguments and discussion on this more important question.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[markses]

33. I agree that we should all be honest about this

And perhaps you most of all. I personally find many of the excuses and aw-shuckisms you've posted recently to be less than honest in intent and action. This is a shame, since I think you have something to offer this community if you would take a more straightforward approach to your subjects.

In any case, your current approach belies your screen name.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[markses]

38. Unfortunately

I judge credibility by the capacity to stand up behind ones positions. I do not feel that you have demonstrated even a will to this capacity, preferring the sneer, the suggestion, and the implication. These are far from rational and honest tactics. By their deeds, ye shall know them.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[markses]

44. Sure pal

Whatever you say. :eyes:

[DAGDA56]

31. Excellent, Markses! My only question is...

...will the Blackwater logo, or images of the 4 be on posters in future dorm rooms? (or a DU avatar, for that matter?)

[H2O Man]

32. Perhaps the real problem....

... is the incorrect use of the word mercenary. It does NOT mean a fighter for money or cause. It is a word that comes directly from the Latin word mercenarius, which means " a fighter merely for pay." It has the connotations of venal and greed. Hence, the person who uses it in regard to Che' is using the word incorrectly. But I suspect we all get his meaning!

[daleo]

51. The difference in money matters too

The Blackwater guys were well paid, and probably lived in barracks when they weren't 'delivering food'. I doubt that Guevara ever made much money during the Cuban revolution, or his later activities. And, bad as Iraq might be, I doubt the physical privations of a 'contractor' there could compare to living in the jungle. In point of fact, many Blackwater types would have probably felt quite comfortable hunting down and killing Che Guevara. Or you or me, if the price was right.

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

35. <wince>

Damn, that is one inflammatory title! Thought our resident Marxists would be undergoing a meltdown after reading that ;)

I would say Western culture regards "killing in a foreign land because I want to impose my communist values on you" as morally different to "killing in a foreign land because I'm saving for a speedboat".

Or maybe that's just me. I have to ask though, what was your motivation for asking this question? :tinfoilhat:

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ConsAreLiars]

39. Dictionaries are helpful when you don't know the meaning of a word,

as your "question" suggests.

For example:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/results.asp?searchword=mercenary
----------------------------------------------------------------
mercenary (SOLDIER)
noun
a soldier who fights for any country or group that pays them

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)


Definition
mercenary (WANTING MONEY)
adjective DISAPPROVING
interested only in the amount of money that can be obtained from a situation:
He had some mercenary scheme to marry a wealthy widow.

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
----------------------------------------------------------------

Since there is no known similarity between what is known of Che's life and goals and those working for by Blackwell. I have to assume your "question" was just a repetition of the usual crap illogic that passes for "wit" in certain small circles. You know, "Che carried a gun and racist cops carry guns so Che is a racist." Or "Clinton lied and Bush lied so lying the world toward Armageddon is ok."

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[charlie]

43. "...fights for ANY country or group"

See that? That one word, in that one position, renders your question nonsensical.

[ConsAreLiars]

45. If you can't understand the definition in one dictionary

try another. Its really easy once you get the hang of it:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mercenary

5 entries found for mercenary.
mer·ce·nar·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mûrs-nr)
adj.

1. Motivated solely by a desire for monetary or material gain.
2. Hired for service in a foreign army.


n. pl. mer·ce·nar·ies

1. One who serves or works merely for monetary gain; a hireling.
2. A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army.


merce·nari·ly adv.
merce·nari·ness n.


Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

mercenary

\Mer"ce*na*ry\, a. 1. Acting for reward; serving for pay; paid; hired; hireling; venal; as, mercenary soldiers.

2. Hence: Moved by considerations of pay or profit; greedy of gain; sordid; selfish. --Shak.

For God forbid I should my papers blot With mercenary lines, with servile pen. --Daniel.

Syn: See Venal.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

mercenary

\Mer"ce*na*ry\, n.; pl. Mercenaries. One who is hired; a hireling; especially, a soldier hired into foreign service. --Milman.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

mercenary

adj 1: marked by materialism 2: used of soldiers hired by a foreign army 3: profit oriented; "a commercial book"; "preached a mercantile and militant patriotism"- John Buchan; "a mercenary enterprise"; "a moneymaking business" n : a person hired to fight for another country than their own

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

mercenary

mercenary: in CancerWEB's On-line Medical Dictionary
<a duplicate of Websters>
Source: On-line Medical Dictionary, © 1997-98 Academic Medical Publishing & CancerWEB

-----------------------------------------------------------

[realdeal22k]

46. I rest my case

:-)

[ConsAreLiars]

47. Hmm? You said you were not making an argument.

Just an innocent request forwarded as a charitable act on behalf of your "partner."

Now you "rest your case." I guess if you can't understand why "venal" is offered as a synonym for the adverb then that is all you can do: shut up and sit down. Probably a good move.

(edit: m!=n)

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

48. Don't feed the trolls.

C'mon people. If you've got the search function use it.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dpibel]

53. A person who can read and think, would be my guess

Someone else on this thread used a variant on the phrase "too clever by half," and that pretty much nails it. I imagine there are circles in which what you are doing passes for pretty darned clever argumentation. Unfortunately, this would not be that circle.

Perhaps it would work to restate your question (Oops! Your partner's question. My bad.) clearly, instead of by way of oh-so-cute leading questions: "Hey! How come you commonists will support Che Guevara, but you think it's OK to kill hired liberators?"

I think that's a pretty fair statement of your partner's question. (Can you explain to me why it would legitimate the question to have it come from a partner instead of from you? I guess I'm supposed to understand that you are but the conduit, and I ought not overreact, since you are only the messenger. Can your partner not type? You merely are sitting there taking dictation? You must admit your partner's question seems to have morphed into a whole series of questions. Is your partner named Harvey?) If I've got the question (or perhaps it is the question behind the question) wrong, do please fill me in. But don't, please, try more half questions and sly misdirections. There may be someone on this thread impressed by that, but that someone isn't me.

BTW: I'm just on the very edge of my seat waiting for you to drop the shoe from #28, in which you say: "So if one or more of the four that were dragged and burned in Iraq were there because they wanted to help the oppressed Iraqis (Saddam did oppress them) they would be as honorable as Che?" Won't you please, please tell me which one it was?

Or was this just a thin-air hypothetical intended to leave dangling the implication that such a person existed? Because if that is what it was about, then you really are just playing silly games. "Hey! Would it make any difference to your analysis if one of the Blackwater employees were Jesus?" "How would it change your feelings if you knew Che Guevara was actually Spider Man?"

[corporatewhore]

52. lol i guess george orwell was a mercenary too (he went to spain to fight

the fascists)