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Yes to vaginal sex, no to anal sex. Is it rape?

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 12:58 PM
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Yes to vaginal sex, no to anal sex. Is it rape?
I DO NOT wish to discuss the Kobe Bryant case, but a number of people seem to think NO at any time during sex should NOT be sufficient. I personally think it should be for a variety of reasons, let alone the fact that if someone really wishes to terminate the act with you, why continue when there are alternatives?

But for those who think the issue is simply about women messing with men's heads (pun intended), I pose the question: If we are having a romantic evening and I am fully willing to engage in good old American-man-on-top-vaginal-sex.....and you all of a sudden head south in spite of my asking you not to...then what?

Do you still hold your position that it isn't rape?
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   Replies to this thread
  - Yes, it's rape. Case closed.  RandomKoolzip   Aug-07-03 01:01 PM   #1 
  - I think it's more stupid dating games than rape  sgr2   Aug-07-03 04:00 PM   #89 
     - I doubt the law suggests the guy ask about everything.  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 04:10 PM   #91 
        - this is what I found on-line  bloom   Aug-07-03 05:06 PM   #110 
           - Seems pretty clear to me  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 05:58 PM   #127 
  - No means no period  jiacinto   Aug-07-03 01:01 PM   #2 
  - It's Rape  ProfessorGAC   Aug-07-03 01:04 PM   #3 
  - If she says no, it's rape  theboss   Aug-07-03 01:05 PM   #4 
  - In your mind is No I don't want to sufficient resistance  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 01:07 PM   #7 
     - No means no  jiacinto   Aug-07-03 01:08 PM   #11 
     - Actually  outinforce   Aug-07-03 02:23 PM   #72 
     - No is enough  theboss   Aug-07-03 01:14 PM   #18 
  - Yeah, who would want to have sex with a woman who wasn't into it?  maggrwaggr   Aug-07-03 01:06 PM   #5 
  - For anyone to force you to do a sex act that you are  Clete   Aug-07-03 01:06 PM   #6 
  - That's called sexual assault and it definitely isn't  FireHeart   Aug-07-03 05:26 PM   #116 
  - Rape!  ronnykmarshall   Aug-07-03 01:07 PM   #8 
  - Yes, it's rape  Monica_L   Aug-07-03 01:07 PM   #9 
  - well..  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 01:08 PM   #10 
  - God  Muddleoftheroad   Aug-07-03 01:10 PM   #14 
  - no, but you would think force has to come into it at some level  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 01:13 PM   #17 
     - But if you are the confused one what responsibility do YOU have  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 01:15 PM   #20 
     - the normal ones  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 01:25 PM   #32 
        - question  salin   Aug-07-03 01:36 PM   #45 
        - I'm that incredible  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 01:36 PM   #46 
           - you frighten me  salin   Aug-07-03 01:40 PM   #51 
           - uh-huh  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 01:42 PM   #52 
              - see my response below  salin   Aug-07-03 01:43 PM   #54 
           - Thank you I didn't see your edits before  salin   Aug-07-03 01:59 PM   #65 
           - I'm neither a dinosaur nor a feminist  foo_bar   Aug-07-03 02:23 PM   #73 
           - And your answer was?  outinforce   Aug-07-03 02:29 PM   #76 
              - "I'm such a stud that no woman is able to resist my advances".  Wonder   Aug-07-03 04:14 PM   #95 
                 - because you can  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 04:22 PM   #98 
                    - but I believe this notion is being purpetrated by the guys themselves  Wonder   Aug-07-03 04:31 PM   #100 
                       - much sense  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 04:36 PM   #101 
                          - the games people play  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 04:44 PM   #106 
                          - Yep  Heddi   Aug-07-03 06:50 PM   #173 
                          - the topic is done a disservice when only the most superficial  Wonder   Aug-07-03 04:57 PM   #107 
                          - excellent points, wonder  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 05:02 PM   #109 
                             - just realize its not 'sometimes no means yes' its and assumption that no=  salin   Aug-07-03 05:26 PM   #118 
                                - pretty darned warped  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 06:34 PM   #157 
                          - StandWatie please see  Wonder   Aug-07-03 05:00 PM   #108 
                          - I don't know you still seem overly inclined to believe that no means go  salin   Aug-07-03 05:25 PM   #115 
                             - because..  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 05:26 PM   #117 
                                - well than standwatie she is not an example  Wonder   Aug-07-03 05:38 PM   #123 
                                - you are probably right..  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 05:41 PM   #124 
                                   - you are being goofy  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:05 PM   #133 
                                      - not in the slightest  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 06:17 PM   #139 
                                         - well standWatie perhaps that is true for you  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:26 PM   #147 
                                         - and no one is saying a male has to bolt to the door after a no  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:29 PM   #152 
                                - If she says NO and MEANS yes and you BOTH know that to be true  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 06:04 PM   #131 
                                - I tend to be curious myself  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:11 PM   #134 
                                - this is getting x-rated  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 06:21 PM   #143 
                                   - I think you like the lines blurred for your own benefit  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 06:29 PM   #151 
                                      - ...  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 06:34 PM   #158 
                                         - if you don't bolt on out at first no  Wonder   Aug-07-03 07:15 PM   #183 
                                         - StandWatie May I be Frank?  Wonder   Aug-07-03 07:26 PM   #188 
                                         - sure  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 07:26 PM   #189 
                                         - Let's take this slowly  Wonder   Aug-07-03 08:04 PM   #205 
                                - There is a difference  salin   Aug-07-03 06:13 PM   #135 
                                   - oops missed an edit  salin   Aug-07-03 08:43 PM   #227 
        - StandWatie I believe what you are alluding to  Wonder   Aug-07-03 03:59 PM   #88 
        - YOU  Skittles   Aug-07-03 04:41 PM   #104 
        - If she (or he) says no...  FireHeart   Aug-07-03 05:30 PM   #120 
     - Making it clear?  Muddleoftheroad   Aug-07-03 01:16 PM   #21 
        - It's about as clear as you can get.  FireHeart   Aug-08-03 02:42 AM   #415 
  - Could help explain  salin   Aug-07-03 01:18 PM   #22 
     - no, just some physical resistance  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 01:25 PM   # 
        - but what does "no" mean  salin   Aug-07-03 01:30 PM   #38 
           - obviously  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 01:32 PM   #40 
              - Its what happened to me, when I ran into someone like you  salin   Aug-07-03 01:37 PM   #47 
                 - did he know after?  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 01:39 PM   #49 
                    - no he didn't  salin   Aug-07-03 01:42 PM   #53 
                    - I'm specifically said women wouldn't use this to play gotcha  StandWatie   Aug-07-03 01:44 PM   #57 
                       - I would believe you  salin   Aug-07-03 01:46 PM   #59 
                    - of course he knew what he was doing but there is a sociopathic  Wonder   Aug-07-03 04:13 PM   #94 
  - well, with me it's not really rape  Magic Rat   Aug-07-03 01:09 PM   #12 
  - indeed  LS_Webmaster   Aug-07-03 01:15 PM   #19 
  - I cannot fathom  charlie   Aug-07-03 01:09 PM   #13 
  - You do (I'm sure) recall a 500 plus post thread  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 01:11 PM   #16 
     - I think the problem with that thread  bloom   Aug-07-03 01:18 PM   #23 
     - sadly, I am not so sure  salin   Aug-07-03 01:21 PM   #27 
        - I agree there is a certain pervasiveness  Wonder   Aug-07-03 04:20 PM   #97 
           - The interesting thing is  salin   Aug-07-03 04:39 PM   #102 
              - yes I agree and it is encouraging  Wonder   Aug-07-03 05:35 PM   #121 
     - Mucky for YOU...  ConservativeDemocrat   Aug-07-03 01:22 PM   #29 
     - Funny that is not how i read that other thread at all  salin   Aug-07-03 01:29 PM   #36 
     - I simply do not see how you figure that was the jist of the thread..  TLM   Aug-07-03 05:38 PM   #122 
        - as I said  salin   Aug-07-03 05:59 PM   #128 
           - OH MY F-ING GOD... NO YOU DIDN'T  TLM   Aug-07-03 06:18 PM   #140 
              - it is crucial to understand  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:24 PM   #145 
              - but remember  salin   Aug-07-03 06:28 PM   #149 
              - I am with you here salin  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:32 PM   #155 
              - Why is this so hard to understand...  TLM   Aug-07-03 07:44 PM   #193 
                 - okay then perhaps in regard to those statements on lying woman  Wonder   Aug-07-03 07:54 PM   #197 
                 - Thank you... wow, more than I expected.  TLM   Aug-07-03 10:57 PM   #276 
                 - Context is everything. You stated ALL WOMEN LIE in the context of a thread  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 08:02 PM   #204 
                    - Oh, so now context means something...  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:15 PM   #210 
              - Sorry but you made it very clear that differences in perception...  TLM   Aug-07-03 07:39 PM   #192 
                 - Sure you are done talking to me BECAUSE  Wonder   Aug-07-03 10:17 PM   #259 
                 - It seems at this point other posters also felt YOU were attacking  Wonder   Aug-07-03 10:34 PM   #264 
              - ah.. there you go again  salin   Aug-07-03 06:27 PM   #148 
                 - Salin  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:37 PM   #160 
                 - More BS distortion... WTF is so hard about this language?  TLM   Aug-07-03 07:49 PM   #195 
                    - from direct interaction  salin   Aug-07-03 08:29 PM   #217 
                       - No I just missed that post i guess...  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:56 PM   #235 
     - If I am on anyone's ignore list that's their loss  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 02:09 PM   #68 
     - Yeah you did...  TLM   Aug-07-03 05:49 PM   #125 
        - I singled nobody out. I understand you resent me for posting that and  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 06:42 PM   #164 
        - why would I not be surprised if there was  Wonder   Aug-07-03 07:17 PM   #184 
        - Of course you did not single anybody out...  TLM   Aug-07-03 07:54 PM   #198 
           - OK, when's your birthday.? I'm going to buy you a dictionary  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 07:57 PM   #201 
              - You said it yourself... context is everything.  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:17 PM   #211 
                 - No I don't have a different standard. There were many posts on that thread  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 08:33 PM   #218 
                    - Why do you continue to try to make this personal?  TLM   Aug-07-03 09:18 PM   #244 
                       - turnaround...why is it so personal to you?  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 02:13 AM   #406 
                          - Good question!  Booberdawg   Aug-08-03 02:44 AM   #417 
                             - Accuse me of being a rapist and I take it personally.  TLM   Aug-08-03 11:50 AM   #425 
                                - have you used the alert button?  JVS   Aug-08-03 12:01 PM   #426 
        - THOSE ARE THE CRITERIA  Wonder   Aug-07-03 07:12 PM   #181 
     - Aren't you the poster who linked to a Christina Hoff Summers article  jchild   Aug-07-03 02:32 PM   #77 
     - What he quoted was correct....  TLM   Aug-07-03 06:20 PM   #141 
        - why does it keep getting floated on threads, then, as proof - not as  salin   Aug-07-03 06:31 PM   #153 
           - Because the numbers support the positions some hold...  TLM   Aug-07-03 06:39 PM   #163 
              - what numbers are you refering to?  Wonder   Aug-07-03 07:06 PM   #179 
                 - The 24% number in the Koss study.  TLM   Aug-07-03 07:58 PM   #202 
                    - this is one study  Wonder   Aug-07-03 08:08 PM   #207 
                       - I think the Koss study has the highest percentage...  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:19 PM   #212 
                          - While it is in no way scientific  salin   Aug-07-03 08:40 PM   #222 
                          - Listen I want to be very clear about this...  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:49 PM   #230 
                             - No one was suggesting it should be ignored  salin   Aug-07-03 08:58 PM   #238 
                                - On the contrary... they said repeatedly it was not rational...  TLM   Aug-07-03 09:33 PM   #249 
                                   - forget it  salin   Aug-07-03 09:39 PM   #252 
                                   - You say nobody said it... and I point out quotes where they did.  TLM   Aug-07-03 10:34 PM   #263 
                                      - what is it you hoped to accomplish?  Wonder   Aug-07-03 10:40 PM   #265 
                                         - I'm not sure...  TLM   Aug-07-03 11:02 PM   #278 
                                         - you see what you describe here (is it understanding)  Wonder   Aug-07-03 11:11 PM   #279 
                                         - You know I got the impression that...  TLM   Aug-07-03 11:40 PM   #288 
                                         - No.  salin   Aug-07-03 11:49 PM   #296 
                                         - But see since i did not say those things like that...  TLM   Aug-08-03 12:10 AM   #314 
                                         - The fact that a number came away with this perception  salin   Aug-08-03 12:15 AM   #317 
                                         - I asked you to point to posts or quotes....  TLM   Aug-08-03 01:47 AM   #388 
                                         - clearly we are talking past one another  salin   Aug-08-03 01:51 AM   #390 
                                         - it never was a threat to me...  Wonder   Aug-07-03 11:49 PM   #297 
                                         - Ok please tell me when oh when  TLM   Aug-08-03 12:11 AM   #315 
                                         - Here is an exercise for you  salin   Aug-08-03 12:16 AM   #318 
                                         - That's why i am asking those people....  TLM   Aug-08-03 12:50 AM   #344 
                                         - yet you are unable to hear the response  salin   Aug-08-03 12:55 AM   #348 
                                         - Oh i see, so I just accept that I, being male, I'm wrong and at fault...  TLM   Aug-08-03 01:51 AM   #391 
                                         - okay I tried Salin tried NSMA tried Noiretbu tried.  Wonder   Aug-08-03 12:42 AM   #335 
                                         - You reached this conclusion....  TLM   Aug-08-03 01:17 AM   #363 
                                         - okay well I thought after reading those posts 279 and 281  Wonder   Aug-07-03 11:46 PM   #291 
                                         - I'm not sure what you mean by what i need.  TLM   Aug-08-03 12:15 AM   #316 
                                         - and I am simple a voice of a position  Wonder   Aug-08-03 12:44 AM   #338 
                                         - You seem to be trying to force the women posters to PROVE  bloom   Aug-08-03 12:51 AM   #345 
                                         - The only thing I want them to prove...  TLM   Aug-08-03 01:19 AM   #365 
                                   - THE BOO HOO CAME AFTER IT WAS CLEAR  Wonder   Aug-07-03 10:06 PM   #258 
                                      - I do not understand... am I just supposed to never mention my situation  TLM   Aug-07-03 10:41 PM   #266 
                                         - this is what you do you turn it around  Wonder   Aug-07-03 11:02 PM   #277 
                                         - Now how did you reach that conclusion?  TLM   Aug-07-03 11:17 PM   #280 
                                         - do me a favor TLM read my post 281  Wonder   Aug-07-03 11:25 PM   #284 
                                         - be sure and read post 279 as well. 281 and 279  Wonder   Aug-07-03 11:27 PM   #285 
                                         - Yes you are correct I did dispute it ..not in the beginning but at the end  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 12:29 AM   #325 
                                         - And you are still personaly attacking... now I'm an abuser?  TLM   Aug-08-03 12:48 AM   #343 
                                         - Be clear that I am not attacking you  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 01:03 AM   #353 
                                         - Oh yeah...calling me an abuser isn;t an attack...  TLM   Aug-08-03 01:21 AM   #367 
                                         - Great, no more circular reasoning. I called you nothing.  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 01:42 AM   #383 
                                         - no it is not that you are not suppose to mention your situation...  Wonder   Aug-07-03 11:20 PM   #281 
                          - I am confused as to why you are raising the koss study  Wonder   Aug-07-03 08:43 PM   #226 
                             - I think the point  salin   Aug-07-03 08:55 PM   #234 
                             - Well yeah especially since the poster had over 85 posts jockeying for it  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 09:01 PM   #239 
                             - Thankyou NSMA and SALIN  Wonder   Aug-07-03 09:34 PM   #250 
                             - OMFG... this is insane.  TLM   Aug-07-03 10:28 PM   #262 
                                - I already gave up  salin   Aug-07-03 10:47 PM   #269 
                             - In this thread... someone asked about it above...  TLM   Aug-07-03 09:45 PM   #253 
     - and your simplistics pronoucements  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 03:01 PM   #79 
     - Again with the dishonesty....  TLM   Aug-07-03 06:28 PM   #150 
        - *sigh* WHAT BOTH OF YOU FAIL TO REALIZE...STILL  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 06:46 PM   #168 
           - NOBODY... NOBODY said anything about "friendly" rapes.  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:10 PM   #208 
              - Even when it's stranger rape, it's better to resist...  ConservativeDemocrat   Aug-07-03 08:39 PM   #221 
              - SURE...TELL THAT TO A 110LB WOMAN  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 08:46 PM   #229 
              - and by doing so one starts to unintentionally shift the blame  salin   Aug-07-03 09:15 PM   #243 
              - I'd like the actual links to your quotes please  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 08:50 PM   #232 
              - MY QUOTE IS #400 responding to # 397 responding to post #369  Wonder   Aug-07-03 09:57 PM   #256 
              - i consider myself a pretty tough person not without fear  buddhamama   Aug-07-03 09:38 PM   #251 
              - DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WORD "IMPLY" MEANS?  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 08:42 PM   #225 
              - Oh here we go again...  TLM   Aug-07-03 10:52 PM   #273 
                 - highly unlikely...  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 11:57 PM   #308 
                    - Simple logic...  TLM   Aug-08-03 12:22 AM   #320 
                       - less severe...still as clueless as ever  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 12:35 AM   #328 
                          - More personal attacks...  TLM   Aug-08-03 01:35 AM   #376 
                             - still playing the victim, i see  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 01:46 AM   #386 
                                - when you can respond without personal attacks let me know.  TLM   Aug-08-03 02:00 AM   #397 
                                   - poor TLM...this tactic...again  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 02:05 AM   #399 
                                      - Obviously you're more interested in flames than debate.  TLM   Aug-08-03 02:12 AM   #404 
                                         - it is MY pleasure and honor  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 02:19 AM   #408 
                                            - I don't believe it Noiretblu this is right back to square one.  Wonder   Aug-08-03 02:26 AM   #411 
              - actually that isn't true.  salin   Aug-07-03 09:14 PM   #242 
                 - I think the confusion is in the idea of prevention...  TLM   Aug-07-03 11:52 PM   #300 
                    - sadly  salin   Aug-07-03 11:55 PM   #304 
                    - yeah...i'd love to hear some opinions about how to prevent  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 12:00 AM   #310 
                       - I have tried to raise it before  salin   Aug-08-03 12:18 AM   #319 
                       - well let's open it up: MEN...any ideas about how to stop MEN from raping?  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 12:23 AM   #321 
                          - Deserves its own thread  salin   Aug-08-03 12:33 AM   #326 
                          - Actually there are a number of male organizations committed to  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 12:35 AM   #329 
                          - perhaps this is a good resource for education  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 12:42 AM   #333 
                          - I did post it on the other thread  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 12:47 AM   #341 
                             - i don't think so...  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 01:02 AM   #352 
                          - I am very glad to learn about this group.  salin   Aug-08-03 12:42 AM   #334 
                          - is this thread open or only under consideration (should be in GD)  Wonder   Aug-08-03 12:46 AM   #339 
                       - That's like asking how to prevent women from commiting infanticide.  TLM   Aug-08-03 12:34 AM   #327 
                       - other than the title, this is one of your more reasonable posts  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 12:38 AM   #331 
                       - the consent issue is clear  Wonder   Aug-08-03 12:47 AM   #342 
                       - Noiretblu there is a Mens Group headed by an X Sports Figure  Wonder   Aug-08-03 12:52 AM   #347 
                          - yes...i've seen this guy on a talk show  noiretblu   Aug-08-03 01:15 AM   #360 
                    - But it can also get a woman killed  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 12:05 AM   #313 
     - Or we're worried about being labeled as rapists... again.  TLM   Aug-07-03 06:04 PM   #132 
        - I said this  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:15 PM   #137 
           - My point is that NOBODY said any of that...  TLM   Aug-07-03 06:32 PM   #156 
              - what exactly is made up about that statement?  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:45 PM   #167 
              - EVERYTHING... the whole damn thing was made up...  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:29 PM   #216 
                 - you are losing me TLM it seems you are off topic  Wonder   Aug-07-03 08:56 PM   #236 
                 - Then why did you say, "according to this small crew of guys"  Wonder   Aug-07-03 09:02 PM   #240 
                 - then why did so many people  salin   Aug-07-03 09:21 PM   #246 
                    - Salin it seems he is now done talking to me  Wonder   Aug-07-03 10:19 PM   #260 
                       - Sigh  salin   Aug-07-03 10:49 PM   #270 
                       - Yet oddly enough not one of you can point to a single post...  TLM   Aug-08-03 02:09 AM   #401 
                          - it doesn't even matter any more TLM  Wonder   Aug-08-03 02:31 AM   #413 
              - there are several examples  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 07:22 PM   #186 
                 - Yes I do believe he did and  Wonder   Aug-07-03 07:28 PM   #190 
                 - Please quote where CD said any of this...  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:22 PM   #214 
                    - I said that. You pulled that from one of my posts in the 500+ thread  Wonder   Aug-07-03 08:45 PM   #228 
     - I saw it, but didn't crack open that thread  charlie   Aug-07-03 01:24 PM   #31 
        - LOL!  Booberdawg   Aug-07-03 02:04 PM   #66 
        - I guess that is what THIS thread is attempting to define  Wonder   Aug-07-03 07:51 PM   #196 
  - It's rape.  Character Assassin   Aug-07-03 01:11 PM   #15 
  - No to "no" is rape  NewYorkerfromMass   Aug-07-03 01:21 PM   #26 
  - BTW, for those who question my intentions on starting this thread  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 01:19 PM   #24 
  - Yes  noonwitch   Aug-07-03 01:21 PM   #25 
  - Rape's not a sex crime, it's a force crime, ergo...  GOPisEvil   Aug-07-03 01:22 PM   #28 
  - Without putting too fine a point on it  DemocratSinceBirth   Aug-07-03 01:27 PM   #35 
  - It happens in jails quite frequently.  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 02:21 PM   #71 
  - Also important  outinforce   Aug-07-03 01:30 PM   #37 
  - yes.. it is rape  nini   Aug-07-03 01:23 PM   #30 
  - There's no way to answer this  joeybee12   Aug-07-03 01:26 PM   #34 
     - Once s/he says NO  outinforce   Aug-07-03 01:34 PM   #42 
     - I believe I said I agree with this..  nini   Aug-07-03 02:04 PM   #67 
        - Indeed, you did.  outinforce   Aug-07-03 02:16 PM   #69 
           - phew..  nini   Aug-07-03 02:19 PM   #70 
     - clarification  salin   Aug-07-03 01:49 PM   #61 
        - third choice  buddhamama   Aug-07-03 05:09 PM   #111 
           - I think I tried to capture that with point two  salin   Aug-07-03 06:02 PM   #130 
  - This is SO Easy  outinforce   Aug-07-03 01:25 PM   #33 
  - This is NOTso easy  joeybee12   Aug-07-03 01:33 PM   #41 
  - I think a man knows  bloom   Aug-07-03 01:37 PM   #48 
  - Excuse Me  outinforce   Aug-07-03 01:43 PM   #55 
  - my response was actully to #41  bloom   Aug-07-03 01:55 PM   #63 
  - I must admit  Wonder   Aug-07-03 03:25 PM   #81 
  - It ABSOLUTELY does not matter  outinforce   Aug-07-03 01:39 PM   #50 
  - oif, for once, i agree with you completely  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 01:47 PM   #60 
  - If she say no it's rape  Blue_Chill   Aug-07-03 01:31 PM   #39 
  - First thread where I have seen 100% agreement on  NNN0LHI   Aug-07-03 01:35 PM   #43 
  - look above  salin   Aug-07-03 01:44 PM   #56 
  - BUT it is the most civil  salin   Aug-07-03 01:51 PM   #62 
  - now it is a matter of those fine points  Wonder   Aug-07-03 04:28 PM   #99 
  - What if, she said no to "going south" (as you put it) last week . . .  Devil Dog Dem   Aug-07-03 01:36 PM   #44 
  - while I would not think so... I would have to wonder about the  salin   Aug-07-03 01:45 PM   #58 
  - If she is passive due to willingly accepting it then no  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 02:26 PM   #74 
     - passive due to threat of violence is common  buddhamama   Aug-07-03 04:40 PM   #103 
  - It is interesting at times  dsc   Aug-07-03 01:58 PM   #64 
  - Of course that's rape.  GOPBasher   Aug-07-03 02:28 PM   #75 
  - yes.  GloriaSmith   Aug-07-03 02:44 PM   #78 
  - Yes it is rape --- perhaps  Wonder   Aug-07-03 03:19 PM   #80 
  - perhaps  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 03:27 PM   #83 
     - yes too few  Wonder   Aug-07-03 03:36 PM   #86 
  - Of course it's rape  slackmaster   Aug-07-03 03:26 PM   #82 
  - No is no  Uzybone   Aug-07-03 03:31 PM   #84 
  - really I do not know what to make of this  Wonder   Aug-07-03 03:32 PM   #85 
  - this is the preferred method of mature people  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 03:38 PM   #87 
     - yes Noiretblu this "doing her" thing is also problematic  Wonder   Aug-07-03 05:13 PM   #112 
        - why yes, indeed you are  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 05:22 PM   #113 
           - males who encounter this ambivalence regularly are type specific  Wonder   Aug-07-03 05:55 PM   #126 
              - 1- very selfish is my vote  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 06:31 PM   #154 
                 - that all women are ambivalent about sex is a BIG LIE  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:54 PM   #175 
                    - it is complex, and few bother to examine themselves  noiretblu   Aug-07-03 08:24 PM   #215 
                       - BINGO: fixing someone else is a distraction from the fixing i need to do  Wonder   Aug-07-03 10:49 PM   #271 
  - what if  dfong63   Aug-07-03 04:09 PM   #90 
  - No...NON...Nicht...it's all the same and pretty universally understood  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 04:12 PM   #93 
  - if she says no, it's rape  ButterflyBlood   Aug-07-03 04:11 PM   #92 
  - clearly it is about respect  buddhamama   Aug-07-03 04:16 PM   #96 
  - Rape.  tom_paine   Aug-07-03 04:41 PM   #105 
  - What exactly is the point of continuing to drag this crap up...  TLM   Aug-07-03 05:25 PM   #114 
  - no it has now moved onto an even finer point  Wonder   Aug-07-03 06:00 PM   #129 
  - The point of bringing this up was posted in the original post  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 06:14 PM   #136 
  - Oh there were? Well then please cite them...  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:35 PM   #219 
  - Actually - you seem to be one of the main people inflaming others  bloom   Aug-07-03 06:47 PM   #172 
     - Yeah I get a little on edge being called a rapist...  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:35 PM   #220 
        - ironically  salin   Aug-07-03 09:19 PM   #245 
           - Hey, you're the first one to admit it even happened.  TLM   Aug-07-03 10:56 PM   #275 
              - funny how you only hear/ read the part that you chose to hear/read.  salin   Aug-07-03 11:38 PM   #287 
              - No please DO take me at my word  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 11:52 PM   # 
  - It's definitely rape  SyracuseDemocrat   Aug-07-03 05:27 PM   #119 
  - Once again what guys have said this?  TLM   Aug-07-03 08:40 PM   #223 
  - If 32 Strokes Were Approved, "No" Stated At Stroke #33...What If  David Zephyr   Aug-07-03 06:15 PM   #138 
  - It's far too hypothetical to answer  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 06:24 PM   #146 
     - See My Edited & Expanded Former Post. Is & Isn't Hypothetical.  David Zephyr   Aug-07-03 06:39 PM   #161 
        - Different levels could be a good idea - n/t  bloom   Aug-07-03 06:44 PM   #166 
        - Another friend posed this question to me last week  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 06:47 PM   #171 
           - I was t hinking about that, but...  bloom   Aug-07-03 06:56 PM   #177 
  - The situation you describe is rape, yes, but tone needs to be addressed  jpgray   Aug-07-03 06:21 PM   #142 
  - I think your response is completely reasonable and not intending to  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 06:36 PM   #159 
     - Right, the CA case wouldn't happen to your normal guy--he would stop (nt)  jpgray   Aug-07-03 06:46 PM   #169 
        - I'd like to think so. From the sounds of it some might not  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 06:54 PM   #174 
           - Wouldn't happen--hearing that would freak me out, and I would stop  jpgray   Aug-07-03 07:10 PM   #180 
  - Definitely.  stickdog   Aug-07-03 06:21 PM   #144 
  - I'm offended at the use of the words vaginal, sex and rape in this post  Starpass   Aug-07-03 06:39 PM   #162 
  - What words would you suggest in place of those? n/t  Aaron   Aug-07-03 06:46 PM   #170 
  - Maybe that was sarcasm. My sarcasm-detector is bad n/t  Aaron   Aug-07-03 09:32 PM   #248 
  - Ok but you were fine with anal right?  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 06:55 PM   #176 
  - Yes.  LWolf   Aug-07-03 06:43 PM   #165 
  - Of course it's rape but let me end this thread right now....  cat_girl25   Aug-07-03 07:02 PM   #178 
  - If the woman says no...  foreigncorrespondent   Aug-07-03 07:15 PM   #182 
  - Here's a radical idea  Nobody   Aug-07-03 07:18 PM   #185 
  - Well Well Well  DemocratSinceBirth   Aug-07-03 07:24 PM   #187 
  - But as I stated, the thread wasn't about Kobe. I simply thought the rumor  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 07:31 PM   #191 
     - No Means No  DemocratSinceBirth   Aug-07-03 07:47 PM   #194 
        - Did you read the original post?  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 07:55 PM   #200 
           - I read the original post and than the nearly two hundred posts that  DemocratSinceBirth   Aug-07-03 07:59 PM   #203 
              - But one might engage in intercourse but not wish to engage in it anally  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 08:05 PM   #206 
                 - Respectfully, I think you are missing my point  DemocratSinceBirth   Aug-07-03 08:20 PM   #213 
                    - It clearly does NOT...if that were so then jailhouse rapes would not be an  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 08:40 PM   #224 
                       - I think we are arguing on parallel  DemocratSinceBirth   Aug-07-03 08:57 PM   #237 
                          - I still take issue with your point  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 09:09 PM   #241 
  - white hegemony denies power to nonmales and nonwhites  Monica_L   Aug-07-03 07:55 PM   #199 
  - Yes. It's rape. No means no.  aquart   Aug-07-03 08:13 PM   #209 
  - this gets my nomination....  deseo   Aug-07-03 08:49 PM   #231 
  - Thanks for your vote. You make a difference.  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 08:54 PM   #233 
  - No means no  SPICYHOT   Aug-07-03 09:28 PM   #247 
  - sorry  are_we_united_yet   Aug-07-03 09:54 PM   #254 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Aug-07-03 09:55 PM   #255 
  - Then ground rules need to be stated  Nobody   Aug-07-03 10:26 PM   #261 
  - ".......but I don't see how it could be rape"  Booberdawg   Aug-07-03 10:41 PM   #267 
     - Interesting take on it  salin   Aug-07-03 10:53 PM   #274 
     - Well consider the circumstances  Against ME   Aug-07-03 11:23 PM   #282 
        - No then you are just a run of the mill *********(fill in the blank)  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 11:27 PM   #286 
        - You are not being pragmatic,  Against ME   Aug-07-03 11:47 PM   #294 
           - The question is two fold  salin   Aug-07-03 11:52 PM   #301 
           - you are wrong  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:11 AM   #358 
              - You whole first paragraph is a none issue,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 10:34 PM   #438 
                 - please read here so we are talking about the same post  Wonder   Aug-08-03 10:48 PM   #442 
                 - Okay, what I say stands.  Against ME   Aug-08-03 11:02 PM   #447 
                 - let's get something straight AgainstME: you write a post about DOING HER  Wonder   Aug-08-03 10:57 PM   #444 
                    - Well wonder,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 11:06 PM   #448 
                       - No AgainstME the expression DOING HER is not acceptable  Wonder   Aug-08-03 11:17 PM   #453 
        - Again - are you serious??  Booberdawg   Aug-07-03 11:58 PM   #309 
        - First of all, you are just wrong.  Against ME   Aug-08-03 10:40 PM   #440 
           - Okay, my mistake  Booberdawg   Aug-08-03 11:01 PM   #445 
        - as soon as she resists YOU STOP  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:02 AM   #351 
  - Of course its rape.  Booberdawg   Aug-07-03 10:04 PM   #257 
  - It depends on whether someone is forcing an act  XanthaS   Aug-07-03 10:44 PM   #268 
  - I have no problem with saying no, and the guy continueing  Against ME   Aug-07-03 10:52 PM   #272 
  - There isn't any law that says that  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 11:24 PM   #283 
  - Yeah, but a law allows for that.  Against ME   Aug-07-03 11:43 PM   #289 
  - Here is the law. Please elaborate  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 11:47 PM   #293 
  - Yes okay here's a scenario, that it allows for.  Against ME   Aug-07-03 11:51 PM   #298 
     - Lets try the same scenario  salin   Aug-08-03 12:25 AM   #322 
     - Okay, but in your case she never consented,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 12:43 AM   #336 
     - No I don't. I see a bigger problem with the boy not being educated  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 12:44 AM   #337 
        - You keep trying to demonize me,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:07 AM   #355 
           - interesting comparison  salin   Aug-08-03 01:11 AM   #356 
           - NO, READ THE POST BEFORE MINE,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:30 AM   #370 
              - didn't catch the details  salin   Aug-08-03 01:36 AM   #378 
                 - Okay, fair enough.  Against ME   Aug-08-03 10:22 PM   #436 
           - no one is demonizing you.  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:16 AM   #362 
           - Thanks, no wonder people are demonziing  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:33 AM   #373 
              - I clarify "your rules" in my post #358  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:40 AM   #379 
              - Haven't read post 358 yet AME. What is up with that?  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:56 AM   #395 
              - still no AgainstME GEE and I thought he wanted to discuss this civily  Wonder   Aug-08-03 02:09 AM   #400 
           - Deleted message  Name removed   Aug-08-03 01:19 AM   #364 
           - I' m demonizing no one  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 02:28 AM   #412 
  - you want something black and white  bloom   Aug-07-03 11:51 PM   #299 
     - But something as importantant as rape law,  Against ME   Aug-07-03 11:54 PM   #303 
        - Have you read through these threads?  bloom   Aug-07-03 11:56 PM   #307 
        - yes I do,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 12:03 AM   #311 
           - and he kept going for quite some time  salin   Aug-08-03 12:27 AM   #323 
           - I have never said that,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 12:35 AM   #330 
              - Another "victim"  bloom   Aug-08-03 12:41 AM   #332 
              - It was an easy inference  salin   Aug-08-03 12:46 AM   #340 
                 - I never said my scenario bas based on the case,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:04 AM   #354 
                    - Just curious  salin   Aug-08-03 01:13 AM   #359 
                       - The consequences are that  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:19 AM   #366 
                          - Then i misunderstood  salin   Aug-08-03 01:33 AM   #374 
                             - Okay, Okay.  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:41 AM   #380 
                                - and there is our disagreement  salin   Aug-08-03 01:46 AM   #387 
                                   - Hey, though the girl knew this could be a possible outcome too.  Against ME   Aug-08-03 10:45 PM   #441 
                                      - Yes it would be emotionally damaging to rape someone and be  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 11:01 PM   #446 
                                         - Tell me this doesn't demonize me  Against ME   Aug-08-03 11:17 PM   #452 
                                         - I'll admit.  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 11:35 PM   #459 
           - Here is the case. Here is their reasoning for the interpretation  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 12:52 AM   #346 
              - oh.. but he was young.. surely he didn't hear what she was saying  salin   Aug-08-03 01:01 AM   #350 
                 - Everything you say is absolutely loaded,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:11 AM   #357 
                    - I have - just from the girls perspective  salin   Aug-08-03 01:16 AM   #361 
                       - Why, do you associate a bad sexual experience with rape?  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:26 AM   #369 
                          - I appreciate the more accurate description  salin   Aug-08-03 01:41 AM   #382 
                          - Run that by me again??  Booberdawg   Aug-08-03 02:10 AM   #402 
                          - I think she (he?) is saying  salin   Aug-08-03 02:15 AM   #407 
                          - Well it's pretty hard to tell  Booberdawg   Aug-08-03 03:29 AM   #424 
                             - I must remind you,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 04:47 PM   #431 
                                - OK  Booberdawg   Aug-08-03 11:11 PM   #450 
                          - Did you read all my other posts,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 05:11 PM   #434 
                             - I agree with this  Booberdawg   Aug-08-03 11:18 PM   #454 
                             - AgainstME. I have a couple of questions?  Wonder   Aug-09-03 01:07 AM   #471 
                          - you have got to be pulling our legs AgainstME because  Wonder   Aug-08-03 02:13 AM   #405 
                          - Your post lacks substance,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 05:01 PM   #433 
                          - I'll try  salin   Aug-08-03 02:21 AM   #409 
        - whether you like it or not, or agree with it or not  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:23 AM   #368 
  - this is getting absurd  salin   Aug-07-03 11:44 PM   #290 
     - Why do you dismiss  Against ME   Aug-07-03 11:52 PM   #302 
     - absurdity does not valid make n/t  salin   Aug-08-03 12:27 AM   #324 
     - salin this was absurd from the words in his very first post on this thread  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:32 AM   #372 
     - Wonder, do you care to have a constructive argument?  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:36 AM   #377 
        - read my post 358 and then come back Ill wait  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:41 AM   #381 
        - so where are you Against ME?  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:55 AM   #394 
     - IMHO this post was absurd post 282 I pasted it here  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:34 AM   #375 
        - In fairness  salin   Aug-08-03 01:49 AM   #389 
           - Never mind  salin   Aug-08-03 01:53 AM   #393 
              - is the tag along not absurd  Wonder   Aug-08-03 02:04 AM   #398 
                 - I am refering to the two posts (not yours)  salin   Aug-08-03 02:25 AM   #410 
                    - oh well it doesn't matter salin  Wonder   Aug-08-03 03:01 AM   #420 
  - whatever Against ME  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:31 AM   #371 
     - Once again wonder, you bring personal attacks and assumption into this.  Against ME   Aug-08-03 01:45 AM   #385 
        - have you read my post 358 yet? or do you prefer to avoid the issue?  Wonder   Aug-08-03 01:52 AM   #392 
        - Please provide a link to 358, or copy and paste.  Against ME   Aug-08-03 10:21 PM   #435 
           - Post 358 pasted in.  Wonder   Aug-08-03 10:38 PM   #439 
              - For the love of god, quit coming in on my responses to people  Against ME   Aug-08-03 10:53 PM   #443 
                 - your problem with the law Against ME is a non issue.  Wonder   Aug-08-03 11:08 PM   #449 
                    - I disagree WONDER. I think his problem with the law is an issue  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 11:15 PM   #451 
                    - Thank you. n/t  Booberdawg   Aug-08-03 11:24 PM   #455 
                    - interesting that you would jump in here  Wonder   Aug-09-03 01:18 AM   #474 
                    - Keep in mind, I have never argued the actual case.  Against ME   Aug-08-03 11:29 PM   #457 
                    - I don't entirely agree with that and here's why  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 11:46 PM   #462 
                    - NO i don't agree  Wonder   Aug-09-03 12:56 AM   #469 
                    - NSMA I have no problem  Wonder   Aug-09-03 12:39 AM   #468 
                    - Okay wonder,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 11:26 PM   #456 
                       - Sweetie...if you were at a party and people were walking in and watching  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 11:33 PM   #458 
                       - You dodged it,  Against ME   Aug-08-03 11:41 PM   #460 
                          - Sure it matters. If you're not 18 you won't be tried as an adult  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 11:50 PM   #463 
                          - True, but it is irrelevant to guilt or innocents.  Against ME   Aug-09-03 12:01 AM   #464 
                             - Ignorance (not stupidity but a legal term) is not an excuse  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-09-03 12:08 AM   #465 
                                - I see your point,  Against ME   Aug-09-03 12:17 AM   #466 
                                   - OK but there are exceptions anyway  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-09-03 12:33 AM   #467 
                                      - You did not answer my question  Against ME   Aug-09-03 01:07 AM   #470 
                                         - Ya got me going there  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-09-03 01:10 AM   #472 
                                         - AgainstME?  Wonder   Aug-09-03 01:13 AM   #473 
                                         - Okay AgainstME I guess we missed each other.  Wonder   Aug-09-03 02:40 AM   #479 
                                            - It would be a misunderstanding, and confusion,  Against ME   Aug-10-03 11:40 PM   #482 
                                            - It is not a misunderstanding on my part AgainstME  Wonder   Aug-10-03 11:56 PM   #485 
                                            - Actually you asked me to answer the bold type,  Against ME   Aug-11-03 12:22 AM   #486 
                                            - yes I know you answered the part about the DOING HER phrase  Wonder   Aug-11-03 12:29 AM   #490 
                                            - The fact is that saying "doing her" hurts nothing,  Against ME   Aug-11-03 12:35 AM   #491 
                                            - the phrase DOING HER implies  Wonder   Aug-11-03 02:28 AM   #512 
                                            - I think you have made yourself pretty clear ...  Booberdawg   Aug-11-03 12:37 AM   #492 
                                            - PS  Booberdawg   Aug-11-03 12:40 AM   #493 
                                            - Yeah, check yours.  Against ME   Aug-11-03 12:46 AM   #495 
                                            - Deleted message  Name removed   Aug-11-03 12:53 AM   #497 
                                            - actually YOU seem big on avoidance and confusion NOT I  Wonder   Aug-11-03 12:42 AM   #494 
                                            - "Little risk" is unnaceptable risk!!!!  Against ME   Aug-11-03 12:54 AM   #498 
                                            - I think I will let the blind lead the blind on this one  Wonder   Aug-11-03 01:00 AM   #501 
                                            - Ha  Against ME   Aug-11-03 01:03 AM   # 
                                            - I disagree with you here  Booberdawg   Aug-11-03 01:04 AM   #504 
                                            - Maybe you are right. Maybe I should go put on a foil hat.  Against ME   Aug-11-03 01:07 AM   #506 
                                            - It's not a trick or a conspiracy  Booberdawg   Aug-11-03 01:43 AM   #511 
                          - here's a suggestion: don't "block out" your partner  noiretblu   Aug-09-03 01:30 AM   #475 
                             - Hello Noretblu  Wonder   Aug-09-03 01:36 AM   #476 
                             - you and i see eye-to-eye, friend  noiretblu   Aug-09-03 02:15 AM   #477 
                                - okey dokey  Wonder   Aug-09-03 02:20 AM   #478 
                             - That is not the point,  Against ME   Aug-10-03 11:21 PM   #481 
                                - No! this is what is problematic  Wonder   Aug-10-03 11:46 PM   #483 
                                - Funny how you dodgethe question  Against ME   Aug-11-03 12:26 AM   #488 
                                   - actually against ME I disagree with booberdawg completely  Wonder   Aug-11-03 12:51 AM   #496 
                                      - Ahhh ha  Against ME   Aug-11-03 12:57 AM   #500 
                                         - tut tut  Wonder   Aug-11-03 01:03 AM   #503 
                                            - But you see, I never said you said I was a rapist,  Against ME   Aug-11-03 01:05 AM   #505 
                                            - no you implied it here are your words  Wonder   Aug-11-03 01:09 AM   #508 
                                            - Once again not reading what I say,  Against ME   Aug-11-03 01:09 AM   #507 
                                            - whatever  Wonder   Aug-11-03 01:11 AM   #509 
                                - I think she's just suggesting you be more "in tune"  Booberdawg   Aug-11-03 12:24 AM   #487 
                                   - Exactly, it's going to be clear 99% of the time,  Against ME   Aug-11-03 12:29 AM   #489 
                                      - An innocent misunderstanding  Booberdawg   Aug-11-03 12:54 AM   #499 
                                         - But do you think something like what I have described could happen?  Against ME   Aug-11-03 01:02 AM   #502 
                                            - No, I don't think it would happen  Booberdawg   Aug-11-03 01:29 AM   #510 
                       - This seems reasonable  Booberdawg   Aug-08-03 11:45 PM   #461 
                       - I must admit AgainstME I am having a couple of problems  Wonder   Aug-09-03 03:00 AM   #480 
        - AGAINST ME 's RULES vs THE LAW  Wonder   Aug-08-03 02:36 AM   #414 
  - I've never understood why a guy would want to fight for sex  okieinpain   Aug-07-03 11:46 PM   #292 
  - It's because you are a gentleman who is not into violence to have  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-07-03 11:48 PM   #295 
  - I think it's at least assault.  Cassandra   Aug-07-03 11:55 PM   #305 
  - really. I am always interested in the female perspective here as well  Wonder   Aug-08-03 12:56 AM   #349 
  - Rape is when someone is being forced to have sex against their will  Terwilliger   Aug-07-03 11:56 PM   #306 
  - I'm down with that  Capn Sunshine   Aug-08-03 12:04 AM   #312 
  - It is now.  draftcaroline   Aug-08-03 01:43 AM   #384 
  - thoughtful response  salin   Aug-08-03 01:59 AM   #396 
  - Why lessen the punishment for a crime that is already under reported  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 02:10 AM   #403 
     - Because it may end up being underprosecuted, for one thing...  draftcaroline   Aug-08-03 02:43 AM   #416 
     - Possibly but not entirely true  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 02:54 AM   #419 
        - Serial rapists get convicted for multiple offenses?  draftcaroline   Aug-08-03 03:19 AM   #422 
     - PS: I hear the sound of rape shield laws fracturing.  draftcaroline   Aug-08-03 02:47 AM   #418 
        - That backlash was present long ago.  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-08-03 03:02 AM   #421 
           - Yes, but now they can act on it, and are doing so.  draftcaroline   Aug-08-03 03:27 AM   #423 
              - A few things I've learned.  El Mariachi   Aug-08-03 12:41 PM   #427 
  - damn...  prez_sux   Aug-08-03 12:53 PM   #428 
  - Please Lock This Enormous Thread!!!!!!!!!  XanthaS   Aug-08-03 12:55 PM   #429 
  - When she says no...  Lady Freedom   Aug-08-03 12:56 PM   #430 
  - No question.  ibegurpard   Aug-08-03 04:49 PM   #432 
  - Absolutely Rape. Period.  brensgrrl   Aug-08-03 10:31 PM   #437 
  - In my humble opinion...  rasputin1952   Aug-10-03 11:51 PM   #484 
 
RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, it's rape. Case closed.
If a woman says no at any time, cool your jets and get away from her. It's pretty simple.

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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
89. I think it's more stupid dating games than rape
So let me get this straight. The guy your with is, shall we say, giving you the high hard one, and you're enjoying it. Suddenly, he pulls the instrument of love out of the hole that God has given women for the purpose of child rearing (hehe) and puts it into the universal disposal hole, which you don't like.

Ok, if you tell your love stud, "I don't like it there, take it out of there. Me no like," and he takes it out, then that isn't rape. It's a stupid kinky move on his part, but not rape.

Now if he refuses to take it out I would then consider it to be a form of rape.

But, the endgame here is that some people are kinky, and I think the idea of these laws where the guy is supposed to ask about everything are just plain old stupid.

EXAMPLE:
"Can I kiss you?"

yes honey

"Can I take your shirt off?"

Go ahead

"Can I put my hand on your breast?"

Sure

"Can I suck on your nipple?"

Uh huh

"I would like to take off your pants and stick it in your butt, can I?"




Get the point?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. I doubt the law suggests the guy ask about everything.
It states a rape occurs at any time the other person says NO.

To be fair I haven't read the Illinois law.

I also don't think it is a question of kinky.

When my ex who is a physician was studying for her masters in public health, she advised me of a study that demonstrated that due to lack of education/ inavailability/ restriction of access to prophylactics in some states more and more teen females were being coaxed into having anal sex to avoid pregnancy, thus increasing instances of hepatitis,HIV infection etc in teens.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #91
110. this is what I found on-line
http://www.legis.state.il.us/legislation/publicacts/ful...


Public Act 93-0389

SB406 Enrolled LRB093 05718 RLC 05811 b

AN ACT in relation to criminal law.

Be it enacted by the People of the State of Illinois,
represented in the General Assembly:

Section 5. The Criminal Code of 1961 is amended by
changing Section 12-17 as follows:

(720 ILCS 5/12-17) (from Ch. 38, par. 12-17)
Sec. 12-17. Defenses.
(a) It shall be a defense to any offense under Section
12-13 through 12-16 of this Code where force or threat of
force is an element of the offense that the victim consented.
"Consent" means a freely given agreement to the act of sexual
penetration or sexual conduct in question. Lack of verbal or
physical resistance or submission by the victim resulting
from the use of force or threat of force by the accused shall
not constitute consent. The manner of dress of the victim at
the time of the offense shall not constitute consent.
(b) It shall be a defense under subsection (b) and
subsection (c) of Section 12-15 and subsection (d) of Section
12-16 of this Code that the accused reasonably believed the
person to be 17 years of age or over.
(c) A person who initially consents to sexual
penetration or sexual conduct is not deemed to have consented
to any sexual penetration or sexual conduct that occurs after
he or she withdraws consent during the course of that sexual
penetration or sexual conduct.
(Source: P.A. 87-438; 87-457; 87-895.)

Section 99. Effective date. This Act takes effect upon
becoming law.


Effective Date: 7/25/2003
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #110
127. Seems pretty clear to me
(c) A person who initially consents to sexual
penetration or sexual conduct is not deemed to have consented
to any sexual penetration or sexual conduct that occurs after
he or she withdraws consent during the course of that sexual
penetration or sexual conduct.


Thanks
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. No means no period
If the woman says no then the man must withdraw. And the same vice versa.

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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's Rape
No elaboration is needed.
The Professor
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. If she says no, it's rape
The grey area would be if you "head south" as you so adequately put it with no resistance and then she later is upset. But if at any point, she resisted in any way . . .it's rape.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. In your mind is No I don't want to sufficient resistance
or must she put up a physical fight and run the risk of injury or a beating?
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. No means no
If a woman says no then the sex must stop.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
72. Actually
The gender of the person makes no difference.

If a woman -- or a man -- says "No", then sex must stop.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. No is enough
Of course, this is why something like "date rape" is so difficult to prove. Because you have to decide what the state of mind of the victim was.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yeah, who would want to have sex with a woman who wasn't into it?
a rapist, that's who
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. For anyone to force you to do a sex act that you are
unwilling to do, even if you had been willing up to that time, is certainly sexual abuse and therefore can be called rape. A man once sneaked up behind me and felt up my bosom in a supply closet at work and even though it hardly qualified for a sex act, I felt as dirty as if I had been raped because it was abuse and I was not willing.

Of course, back then I had to quit my job, because my complaints to personnel were laughed at. They said my sweater was too tight and I invited the person to commit the act on me. There were no sexual harassment laws then.

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FireHeart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
116. That's called sexual assault and it definitely isn't
something to be laughed at. Things have improved in that area, but no where near enough. Your body is YOURS. No one has the right to touch it unless you grant permission. Period.

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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. Rape!
Which is something Kobe might be at the receiving end of in the future.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. Yes, it's rape
Consent to penetrate one orifice does not grant blanket permission to penetrate the others with impunity.

No means no.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. well..
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 01:08 PM by StandWatie
if you just said "no" and kept laying there, I don't know what I'd call it other than confusing. Get up and leave? :shrug:

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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. God
Your post is scary. That means if a woman gives a guy a blowjob and says no to anything else she is being confusing?
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. no, but you would think force has to come into it at some level
I'm not quibling about terms here I'm saying that if you are confused about whether you are raping someone either you are a complete retard or your partner in this act isn't making themselves clear.

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. But if you are the confused one what responsibility do YOU have
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 01:16 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
to clarify it?
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. the normal ones
I'm just saying given that "no means no" means I'm a serial rapist because in the real world it doesn't always mean no, no matter what ideological constructs you make, it's just part of human mating and I didn't make up the rules.

I can attest that I'm not a serial rapist since no one ever got angry with me for persisting past one no and either gaining an honestly pre-ordained consent or understanding they were serious.

I don't think any of this matters one bit, I don't believe woman are seriously going to play a game of "gotcha" with this in a court but what I do worry about is parsing down the definition of rape until all sex becomes rape the way it's defined by dinosaur feminists.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. question
have you ever respected a woman who said no? Or are you just so incredible that they all - after a long struggle of saying no... are won over by your incredible and tenacious efforts?

Try this approach instead.

Stop.

When you stop, if she doesn't really mean "no" - I bet she asks you why you stopped. Mystery solved.

Notice - it is not feminist dinasours who are disagreeing with you on this.

If this really is your MO - I would suggest that if you ever are charged, it is more about your actions than about a lying female. You have already admitted to this.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. I'm that incredible
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 01:38 PM by StandWatie
I'm just kidding, yes, I've done just that before.

I've also done that and got asked the next time I saw the person why I stopped which is why I don't think you are committing some terrible crime if you take one more stab at it after one no.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. you frighten me
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 02:00 PM by salin
if you have never, never listened and stopped at "no". If you have always coerced sex. Yes, I would have to agree with your first assessment of yourself.

This is why the incident of rape is still so high.

On edit: the post this was responding to has been edited - reflecting that this is not the case (never hearing no) - thus this post is irrelevant (I think).
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. uh-huh
:eyes:
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. see my response below
your reaction is identical.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
65. Thank you I didn't see your edits before
I was working from the wrong premise. I will correct my comments elsewhere. Please take my comments from reading your earlier sarcasm (blank with the yes) as meaning you had never said no. Thanks for understanding.

It isn't a crime if you really know that it is no longer no (she verbally acquiesces) and that there is a point when you stop trying (the continued trying at some point becomes harrassing). If you have those sort of internal guidelines - then the line shouldn't be crossed.
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #46
73. I'm neither a dinosaur nor a feminist
I don't think you are committing some terrible crime if you take one more stab at it after one no.

But "one more stab" is an interesting play on words.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
76. And your answer was?
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 02:29 PM by outinforce
"I've also done that and got asked the next time I saw the person why I stopped"

And your answer was........?

Try this the next time someone asks you "why you stopped":

"Because I respect you enough to stop when you say "Stop" (or "No")".

I am gay guy, and even I know that that much respect of women -- if sincere -- is a lot better approach to women than the "I'm such a sutd that no woman is able to resist my advances".
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #76
95. "I'm such a stud that no woman is able to resist my advances".
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 04:15 PM by Wonder

another important delineation.

how can a male hear no --- when all he wants is yes.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. because you can
because people do it every day, and if the amen choir was being honest they know it to.

I've known people who really were assholes and pushed coercion well into a definition of rape I'm comfortable with but the notion that a man should bolt out of a room without even pulling up his pants and flee if a woman shows any hesitation is just humiliating and insults the intelligence of men and is just foreign to what people really do.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. but I believe this notion is being purpetrated by the guys themselves

who are coming up with some of the most ridiculous arguments in their quest to resist this new clarification in the law. At least for the most part. So at the beginning the debate was extremely polarized. to counter some of the more insulting remarks from one extreme required they be countered with as an extreme argument from the opposing side.

does that make sense?
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. much sense
it's just that trying to make rules for sex gives me the creeps in the first place and in the second I think it's just a waste of time.

Everyone knows that no does not always mean no, men like to hear no sometimes so they can think they just shattered resistence with sheer sexual power and women say it sometimes because they want to think they are so irresistable it's impossible. I think there is a certain D/S component to it and maybe everyone in the world should just do what that crowd does and come up with a safe word besides "no", it doesn't seem any sillier to me than trying to come up with a number of times you have to hear no before you get the point. I know that's why the "no means no" people like zero, it's because you avoid having to make a decision that stupid but zero is a number also.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. the games people play
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 04:59 PM by noiretblu
are much different than forcing someone to have sex against his/her will. i didn't really think this law was necessary until i read some of the posts of those vehmently against it :scared:

i hear what you're saying...people do play games with each other. however, i do think there's a difference between being coy or flirting, just as there is a difference between coaxing and forcing, as salin described. and i also know there is a difference between saying "no" and meaning something else, and saying "NO" and struggling to stop whatever is happening, and so do most people.

i do believe many rapists believe they are irresitible...and have a problem understanding the difference between flirting and consent. and while i think some situations maybe genuinely confusing, there is always an option...err on the side of caution.

that doesn't mean running from the room every time a partner hesitates or says "no," but it does mean that forcing a continuation of sex when someone does say "NO" is rape.

you can sense when a person is truly uncomfortable with something.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #106
173. Yep
"You can sense when a person is truly uncomfortable with something".

I was raped & molested for a very long time at a very young age.

My husband knows the difference between a "No" meaning "come here you little stallion" and "No" meaning "please get off of me, I'm about to freak out right now", and while it hasn't come up, he would definitely know a "NO" meaning "I don't want to do this anymore".


Just to be sure though, he always makes sure before proceeding if he hears a "no", and for the past 6 years that we've been together, I've only had to say "no" once, and that was just during a really bad time when I was having some issues with my past.

He's intuitive enough to know if I'm comfortable, and he knows that just because I decided to give him a BJ doesn't mean that I'm open and availble in any and every way he wants.

It's called boundaries and knowing your partner.

If you're unsure if she's saying NO meaning Yes, or NO meaning NO, why not just stop----if she wants you, she'll indicate so. If she wanted you to stop, she'll proceed to get up from the bed, or make other moves to indicate that sex is over.

I find it quite unbelievable that men are just SO FUCKING UNABLE to understand that NO means NO in 99% of cases, and a lady will make it quite clear if she didn't mean "NO" but "yes" instead.

In reading some of the comments from the MYRIAD of kobe, rape, etc. threads as of late, to my husband, he too was shocked at the sheer INSISTENCE of some male posters that if a man and a woman kiss, then that's an indication that she is consenting to do whatever he wants for as long as he wants, and if she says "no" she really means yes, and how's the guy supposed to stop once he's got started, and guys have hormones too right? And what about blue-balls?? And what about women who say "no" but really say "yes" but really really mean "no" and guys are so confused and trodden-upon by the sexually repressed women who just can't shut up long enough for him to get off in her and then get off of her...... :eyes:

Virginia Slims said "You've come a long way, baby".....I'm afraid in actuality we haven't moved more than a few paces....
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #101
107. the topic is done a disservice when only the most superficial
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 04:59 PM by Wonder

aspects of this "no means yes" element is persued without delving beneath the surface of it. Clear the Law felt clarification was required. The women on this forum did not change the law. Do you believe the legislators of this law have made this clarification solely to mess with guys head.

Clearly date rape is a problem. While I agree can arise ambivalence in the female gender which can be age related or indicative of a deeper sexual psychology or malady, it seems to me the resistance to this clarification in the law from the male perspective also is indicative of a deeper issue. It is not only women who can be sexually confused. A males sexual confusion can be much more so lethal physically.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. excellent points, wonder
it seems the "sometimes no means yes" cannard is the real focus of this law, and it is a message to those who believe it.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #109
118. just realize its not 'sometimes no means yes' its and assumption that no=
go. How warped is that?
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #118
157. pretty darned warped
a warped culture and cultural message? indeed.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #101
108. StandWatie please see
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 05:00 PM by Wonder

my post #88. there are deeper issues involved here than just how this clarification in the law inconveniences the male gender.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #101
115. I don't know you still seem overly inclined to believe that no means go
I think that as you describe (a guy who needs to hear it to think he has overcome some resistance) is the one who has the issue. And to make him feel good, women shouldn't be put at risk. In other words pretending that "no doesn't always mean no" is a phrase that helps assuage the egos and games of men who may blur that line too closely and too often. Why are we protecting them? Got me.

No means no until it becomes yes. You can coerce but not reengage until you have that acquiescence but if one assumes no means go - it is the person making the assumption that has the issue.

And with this law - there is more clarity on who has the legal responsibility of accepting no as meaning no rather than go.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. because..
I go out with a girl who it doesn't mean no for and who I would make unhappy if I actually complied with her requests and I resent the implication that I "rape" her a few times a week :shrug:
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #117
123. well than standwatie she is not an example

it seems you have read her correctly and therefore this pleases her so what is the problem... the cases we are talking about is when this clearly isn't the issue...

again, this example has little to do with rape... so why do you keep bringing it up... I only ask because if find it interesting you have not responded to post #88...

From what I can gather from this particular example you have raised this has nothing what so ever to do with this topic... and only serves to cloud and further confuse what is truly a very clear clarification in this law.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. you are probably right..
:shrug:

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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #124
133. you are being goofy

I have a question... regarding your concern... or should I say:

do you feel concerned that if this girl were to read this new law that one day she might file charges of rape or are you just being goofy and/or a pain in the ass for your own amusement.

believe me I understand the self amusement aspect of participating on some of these threads. I do it all the time in i/p.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #133
139. not in the slightest
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 06:18 PM by StandWatie
as a matter of fact when I was typing earlier I got a call and she asked me what I was doing and I said "pissing off a bunch of people on DU who think that any contact after a woman says no is rape" and she laughed.

Yeah, there is some element of me just chowing down on sacred cows for amusement but I'm being somewhat serious to, this law won't do anything about date rape and making standards just seems ridiculous to me, a complete waste of time and it's a problem that doesn't lend itself to legal codes or education (maybe it could be solved by education but take a look at the stuff they tell college kids and watch their reactions, you just can't tell people in their early twenties that if a guy and girl get hooked up at a party drunk the girl got raped, they've probably already been there done that and find the notion hillarious, it's the same thing with these draconian guidelines, I don't know what guidelines to use to tell a man when he is being criminally coercive but I know it isn't just not bolting the minute the woman says no and so does everyone else that gets around any amount).
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #139
147. well standWatie perhaps that is true for you

you seem well paired... however it is not true for all the males responding here. Again, the Lawmakers who made this clarification felt it was needed. Whether it is enforceable of not is a whole other conversation.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #139
152. and no one is saying a male has to bolt to the door after a no

what the law stresses is that after a no he is not to FORCE sex... there is a difference between perhaps continuing to persuade and pinning the female in such a way as she is unable to bolt herself...

<<<<you just can't tell people in their early twenties that if a guy and girl get hooked up at a party drunk the girl got raped>>>>

the law is not telling teens any such thing... the law is being confused and in some instance (not in yours necessarily) I find the confusion suspicious.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #117
131. If she says NO and MEANS yes and you BOTH know that to be true
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 06:16 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
then there is no implication that you rape her a few times a week. That is YOU stretching your sexual play book into claiming that no means yes.

It is interesting to me however that certain males like to take the context of their relationship and therefore extrapolate that NO MEANS YES.

I also have to wonder if the woman you are with is saying NO because it feeds into some fantasy of yours i.e. the fantasy of raping a woman.

IMHO, it is more likely men with your interpretation that necessitated clarification of the law. Not feminists.

on edit: I would also caution that if your GF says no and means yes, it certainly would not be rational to conclude that all women say no and mean yes.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #131
134. I tend to be curious myself

because in some instances the persistance here does perpetuate a myth that is imbedded into our societies ethos and is a myth that only serves to perpetuate rape rather than challenge it. I feel pushing the envelop is warranted... specifically because one woman can not be superimposed onto all women especially when it is clear LAWMAKERS seem to feel this clarification in the law was required or they would not have made.

Unless the lawmakers themselves are attempting to dissipate the issue even further as one of the posters has suggested (which I really don't agree that is the case). Rape and it's persistance is indicative of underlying complexities and in instances maladies if certain types do not pair up with those partners that feed their specific desires. It does not than serve them to force a specific desire on to a partner that might not be as responsive.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #131
143. this is getting x-rated
I just think adults have a better grasp on what they are doing than you do, I think.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #143
151. I think you like the lines blurred for your own benefit
If adults had a better grasp, then there would be no issue, hundreds of thousands of women would not be raped annually, the FBI would not bother keeping statistics on the matter and nobody would have written a law clarifying when consent ends and rape begins.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #151
158. ...
I never said rape didn't occur or that a woman needed to resist until she was a bloody pulp or resist at all if if there is some reason to think things will go violent if she does, I'll even give it rape if there is any sort of effort whatsoever to get between the woman and the door but I'm not convinced that you have raped someone if you don't bolt on out at first no, I think THAT'S blurring the lines.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #158
183. if you don't bolt on out at first no

no one is suggesting that is the case.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #158
188. StandWatie May I be Frank?
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #188
189. sure
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #189
205. Let's take this slowly

would you agree that there does exist what I would call and in fact may be termed the "sex scene" which is a scene in which mature adults that are interested might even go to someones home or a places suited to this scene in which there exists what I would call a "sex menu"

are you with me so far?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #117
135. There is a difference
(as long as you are sure this is a reciprocal game) between the usual patterns between two people - and what you refered to earlier that sounded like a 'serial' progression of events with different women. In which case, to presume on short terms (eg someone you are not in a lterm relationship with) that this is what it means... is dangerous.

And if the "type" you refered to before (male) who needs to "feel resistance" and overcome it (presumably to get excited) were to take this approach on a multiple lover escapade (serially - meaning with each new lover), don't you see how this dude might not fully perceive a real no if he heard one? especially if he like a few have expressed here believe that no only means no if there is some kind of physical resistance. Some women are just too freaked out at the time to do the scratch the eyes out thing. So silence. IN this scenario... how easy does it become woo baby comeon.. "no" ohhh you say that but you really like this... "no"... ah here we go - and since no more NO and no fight - he heres lets go... BUT to her she is silent.. because she is stunned.. in her head she thinks: omfricking god! omyfrickingod! I can't believe it... I said no again and again... this is what rape is omyfrickingod.... and she is frozen in disbelief.

Maybe he wonders why she didn't really respond during the act. Probably thinks "cold fish"...

--------
This is the danger of illdefined lines - on pretending there are multiple meanings of no (there is ONE until SHE tells you there is a different meaning FOR HER for no .... Not the other way around). Yes of course this is different if you have a defined relationship game with your lover. But surely this example helps explain why the excuse of no isn't always no.. especially to a guy - who as you describe "needs to overcome resistance" as his thing... is a really dangerous game.

I would guess it is in this confusion that many of the rapes occur.

she is stunned I just said no omfuckinggod this guy is raping me...she is stunned)..
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #135
227. oops missed an edit
went and did my laundry.. tried to rewrite a sentence for clarity - and the cut and paste piece didn't get deleted - but stuck at the bottom. oops sorry. Just read the post without the very last sentence and it covers what I am trying to say - in terms of staging how the confusion - based on the description of a certain "type of guy" that was given earlier in this thread - could become rape.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
88. StandWatie I believe what you are alluding to
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 04:26 PM by Wonder

I mean the specific example you give, within the context you give it,is kind of a non-issue. Why? because yes there are those more innocent instances when one partner might be ambivalent and coaxing from the male ensues:

1- as you said the female is persuaded -- however -- i believe checking in on her throughout might be advised

2- I would advise caution in the cases where much persuation is involved... there are just people in this world that have trouble saying no... it causes them discomfort.. in this instance I would say one is dealing with a female that may have some sexual issues... and or the babe wants to cuddle in such a big way she has chosen to compromise her convictions... in other words, if it takes much persuasion, I am not saying the girl will say a rape occurred... what I am saying it does not always mean she is actually present... my advise to males in this instance would be to question this kind of ambivalence. IT IS INDICATIVE OF SOMETHING which may require one partner at the very least open up a dialogue... rather than continuing to persue the sex itself.

3- you are correct for the most part FORCE is the operative word and I would hope that once FORCE is used the male does know (even the somewhat sociopathic ones) that they are using FORCE whether they will admit it or not.

StandWatie #2 is the short version of what I agree can be a very involved discussion, even aside from rape. My take is that sexual assault is much more prevalent in our society than anyone wants to admit. Incest comes to mind in particular. Sexual assault causes damage -- to cope many more victims of sexual assault bury the incident so deep within they themselves do not even know behavior has manifested as a symptom of sexual assault... I would also consider the possibilty of sexual assault when one encounters 1- a very ambivalent seemingly confused sexual partner as well as 2- a female exhibiting very passive aggressive issues of control and or powerlust.

You might know many strippers have been victims of incest. Sexual abuse undermines what can be almost a power of both men and women... on the runway strippers are in control... I just throw this out there... some woman who have been sexually abused have been extraordinarily damaged however hip, or beautiful or confident or in control they might appear...

Item #2 is not a small topic it is a very big topic and may be a catchall which can be indicative of much sexual disfunction. Sexual ambivalence is not gender specific nor is sexual guilt which can manifest itself in anger, or ambivalence, or even undue promiscuity.

Sex guilt is another category. for instance, I sometimes can pick up from some men that I have noticed while attracted that very attraction also angers them... that anger is then projected on to me... when I pick that vibe up... I distance myself immediately...

The time has come it seems to me for both men and women to be cognisant of the fact that sexual abuse is not a myth... but is highly prevalent within our society. consequence being the sexual and psychological damage to more girls and boys and men and women than we care to admit... sign of the times... perhaps it is time to take heed and take care... not just assume one's chosen partner is one way or another and be careful to read the language of the body more than the words... caution is advised... and compassion and sensitivity never hurts either.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
104. YOU
ARE A F***ING MORON.
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FireHeart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
120. If she (or he) says no...
Then take it at face value. If you have cooked up a sick, twisted mindset that "no doesn't always mean no" then I hope you end up in a nice comfy jail cell with Bubba. Then you can scream "NO" all you want and feel very comfortable with the end results.

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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Making it clear?
No means no. That's pretty damn clear.
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FireHeart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
415. It's about as clear as you can get.
She (or He): "No!"

He (or She): "Huh? I don't understand?"

Sheesh.

You don't need to worry if s/he "means" No or not. If it's spoken, take it for face value and END it.

Not all that difficult to do--or understand.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Could help explain
why the incident of rape is so high. Such wishful thinking when no in absence of a violent fight is "confusing".
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:25 PM
Original message
no, just some physical resistance
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
38. but what does "no" mean
if not no?

I said no. I tried to struggle. Ended up dropping deadweight to the floor to attempt to prevent being dragged to the bedroom.

That wasn't enough clarity.

Better off to just accept no.

If she really doesn't mean no, once you stop, she will let you know.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. obviously
so is this a huge problem I'm unaware of?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Its what happened to me, when I ran into someone like you
he didn't think it was rape either.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. did he know after?
I really, really don't understand how you can't figure out if you are raping someone, he knew exactly what he doing.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. no he didn't
we had a class together afterwards. It was awful. We only spoke of it once in allusion. I teared up and couldn't even use the word rape (because of the negative responses we see hear at a progressive website where women are presumed to lie)... but I did say.. why... my wrists were bruised... why... he didn't respond.

He did stay out of my way and try to be polite while we had a small seminar class the next semester (of 9 people). That was hell.

And no, his being polite didn't spare me from the very real reprecussions that follow being a victim of rape.

I am very concerned that you may have done the same thing. And that you, like he, can not see what is obvious to others.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. I'm specifically said women wouldn't use this to play gotcha
and there is a fuckload of difference between holding someone down with enough force to bruise and making another move.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. I would believe you
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 02:02 PM by salin
if you had ever accepted no. It sounds like you haven't. I do not believe you understand how close to the line you go - and if/when you have crossed it. I seriously hope you will think about that and not just presume this is a feminist thing.

On edit: this was in response to a now edited post - which now indicates it is not the case that "no" had never been respected. Thus to this take the "you" out above and insert "any person who never accepts no" as the You. Sorry for the confusion.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
94. of course he knew what he was doing but there is a sociopathic

aspect to this, as well as an ingrained conditioning within both the male and the society at large. It is almost as if because to this type of male sex is a matter of dominance... some do not equate it with right or wrong... this kind of behavior is not always easy to prosecute either... therefore... either these kinds of incidences are under report or if reported, they never make to trial or if they do make it to trial the juror acquits based both on lack of substantive evidence or societal myths... one being this issue you raise of the "no means yes" conditioning or misnomer ingrained within our society.

big topic here... not a small topic...
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. well, with me it's not really rape
by the rate I'm going if I ever got a woman in bed the approprite term would be:

miracle

:evilgrin:
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LS_Webmaster Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. indeed
i know what you mean :silly:
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. I cannot fathom
anyone who thinks that because their partner initially consented, they've got the full E ticket, redeemable for whatever they want for however long they want. Nor do I understand why anyone would want to impose themselves on someone unwilling. It's bizarre.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. You do (I'm sure) recall a 500 plus post thread
where the lines seemed to be mucky for some. They have abstained thus far from this thread...but I think this scenario adequately describes why the law may have been clarified as well.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. I think the problem with that thread
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 01:22 PM by bloom
was the original article was suggesting that law was unreasonable and some took the bait. I think when the subject is described in a straightforward way - the answer is more obvious.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. sadly, I am not so sure
have read to many really funky variations of those themes on DU over the past two years. While it is distinctly a tiny minority on here - there really are those who always side with the male and presume the male is always being falsely accused and are thus looking for the way the vixen "sent mixed messages", or in some other way lured the poor hapless fellow into the situation.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
97. I agree there is a certain pervasiveness
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 04:22 PM by Wonder

regarding this no means yes topic that is ingrained within the male as well as conditioned within society, which perpetuates the confusion of what constitutes rape... look there is no getting around the fact that even in the face of this clarification in the law, the confusion persists. This confusion needs to be hashed out... because in a percent of cases IT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM... a women too are percent of women too are also part of the problem... that aspect of the conversation is trickiest part of all.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #97
102. The interesting thing is
that for the first time - there is a discussion of sorts happening here and the level of thread devolution which happened in other recent threads has not occured. I do think these discussions are needed. They are just so hard to pull off (such that they don't get hostile or devolve.)
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #102
121. yes I agree and it is encouraging

the topic is an important one and does require one keeps ones head. and even with the discussions themselves RESPECT and SENSITIVITY is required. I can not deny some of the male perspective on this. I know a very wide range of women which constitute the various types. And there exist those women who are not only sexually ambivalent, but in their ambivalence can be as psychologically lethal as males can be physically lethal.

I have one woman in mind who falls into this catagory. She in her own right is a sexual predator... in a vampiress kind of way... she plays with fire regularly... yet she is not doing this within what I will term the "sex scene" category... when I hear these guys talking about it seems some of these guys are alluding to a very specific type women. does this mean she deserved to be harmed or forced? No. The woman I am using as a protype here is one that has been damaged so badly that she has suppressed the damage to such a degree, she herself is in denial about it. That damage than manifest's itself in a kind of left handed anger of men...

interestingly it seems to me that this female protype who appears to be the most alluring and many times is leading with her hip only to play sexual games with either males or in instances women as well... actually hates men much more so than some of the women here who have been accused of male bashing. The difference is, is this particular type women is playing the sex game... this game is more alluring because it is as easy to spot... and I must tell you I completely understand a males anger to this... what I do not understand is this.

Because this type of women is really easy to spot... if the male has so much angst with her... why does he not reject her? But instead it seems his own powerlust... or desire for the easy all that glitters is not gold... comes into play here... it is almost as if the two are different sides of the same coin...

The kind of women I speak of is completely unconscious of her own damage and is incapable of being loyal either in friendship with another woman or in love. Or once she has lured her toy in in fact she than falls into her own fantasy and immediately falls in love.

my point being. this no means yes... or the behavior of these more sexually ambivalent types of women... or those women playing those powerlust games... is indicative of a very complex sexual psychology within which has occurred sexual abuse to some degree. I tend to also stand real clear of women like this. The are deceptive... they are liars... and they are not to be trusted... their game is power... and they are blood suckers ... not nurturers... and generally they themselves are completely unconscious of their own malady... in many instances guys will see them for what they are... and always just play the situations for their own convenience.

I am sorry to bring this aspect of the discussion up... but I can not negate the angst some of these guys are trying to articulate. To them I just advise caution... when it is not a clear NO but seems to be a sex game... they may be playing with fire... I do not mean these women will falsely accuse... I do not believe that is the case... but some kind of deep sexual psychological malady is present.
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ConservativeDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Mucky for YOU...
You deliberately tried to interpret "beware - women lie more often than many people think" into "gosh golly - I'm all for rape". Its a cheap rhetorical trick worthy of the most psychotic freeper.

Perhaps the reason people have abstained from this thread is that you're on people's ignore lists now.

- C.D.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Funny that is not how i read that other thread at all
see how our individual perceptions color things?

I read that as the "look how many men think that false accusations are as common as rape, and ignore the high incidence of nonreported rape" thread as well as the "men falsely accused of rape, even if noone ever goes to the police suffer as bad or even worse than rape victims" thread.

Funny how that works.

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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
122. I simply do not see how you figure that was the jist of the thread..

"I read that as the "look how many men think that false accusations are as common as rape, and ignore the high incidence of nonreported rape"


How does expressing concern for false claims or abuse of a badly written law, translate in your mind to someone claiming flase accusations are mroe common than rape or someone ignoring non-reported rape?

How does someone having their own issues or opinions automaticaly means they must be denying or ignoring yours?


"thread as well as the "men falsely accused of rape, even if noone ever goes to the police suffer as bad or even worse than rape victims" thread.""

Again who said men falsly accused suffer worse?

I brought up the issue of false accusations because of my experience. Never once did I say false accusations were worse than rape... nobody did.

What the fuck?

Guy were being accused of being rapists for no other reason than they dared to disagree with the opinions of a few women posting to the thread. And the same shit is happening again in this thread.

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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #122
128. as I said
we each perceive things differently.

Actually I think that some of your posts - gave that color/sense/feel of the thread for me (in terms of shaped how I perceived the gist of the thread).

Sometimes the message we send through our posting content, style and repitition. I think I was not the only one who perceived that message to be coming through that thread.

The denial that rape is common and real. The denial that there are long term repercussions (denial = ignore the issue when raised) while repeating how one suffered from a "similar situation" (You drew the parallel) might have left readers with an impression that now it appears you did not mean to create.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #128
140. OH MY F-ING GOD... NO YOU DIDN'T

"we each perceive things differently."

If you were a man making that argument... well you know.


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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #140
145. it is crucial to understand

that men and women DO perceive things differently. I tend to agree with salin... I know many of my posts got deleted in my dialogue with you specifically... but some of your linquistics... road a very fine line...

I tried to point that out to you by having you look at I think it was post 518 in the other long thread... there are guidelines.. which define certain criteria... some of your chosen words... tended to be edgy. Judging from Salin's response to you as well as noiretblu's and also NSMA... it appears we all had the same impression.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #145
149. but remember
we are all women. ergo. according to some logic on that thread, we must all be lying. It wasn't our impression at all... we are just liars :eyes:
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #149
155. I am with you here salin

I responded in the very same way you described to TLM for the reasons you describe and I was not the only one... I just lost my cool so some of my posts were deleted... and I believe if the moderators themselves understood this CRITERIA to which we are referring... perhaps TLM's confusion would not still persist.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #149
193. Why is this so hard to understand...


I said all women lie.

Not that everything all women say is always a lie.

Not that all rape claims are lies.

Not that all women lie maliciously.

Not that only women lie.


Are the words really that hard to understand?
They seem simple enough to me.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #193
197. okay then perhaps in regard to those statements on lying woman

there was misunderstanding.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #197
276. Thank you... wow, more than I expected.


OK I'll talk to you again.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #193
204. Context is everything. You stated ALL WOMEN LIE in the context of a thread
about RAPE, the meaning of the word no and your experience with A WOMAN who lied.

TO say all women lie in a rape thread, is tantamount to saying all African Americans lie in the context of a lynching thread.

All human beings lie. It is the human condition for the most part. What is left unsaid is the degree to which people lie, which varies..and what they lie about.

Saying all women lie in a thread about rape when you have ONE instance in which you were unfairly accused of something leaves people with the impression that you were saying ALL WOMEN lie about rape (or date rape to be specific).
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #204
210. Oh, so now context means something...


"You stated ALL WOMEN LIE in the context of a thread about RAPE, the meaning of the word no and your experience with A WOMAN who lied."


And you said, "just wondering if any of the posters on this thread seem to fit the bill." After posting a warning of men to look out for as potential rapists.


Funny how context applies to my statements, but not to yours.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #145
192. Sorry but you made it very clear that differences in perception...

Are no excuse for inappropriate behavior.


that men and women DO perceive things differently. I tend to agree with salin... I know many of my posts got deleted in my dialogue with you specifically...

Yeah because you were personally attacking me.

I'm done talking to you.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #192
259. Sure you are done talking to me BECAUSE

you really do not have a leg to stand on... you came back in here with a quote of MINE... ONCE AGAIN I explain it... Other posters here have actually attempted to explain... and still you resist. Fine. Your done talking to me. Good.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #192
264. It seems at this point other posters also felt YOU were attacking
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 10:36 PM by Wonder

women in general in the 500+ thread AND were ALSO left with the impression that your implication/accusation/attack was that ALL WOMEN LIE WITH IMPLICATION THAT THEY LIE ABOUT RAPE seems to be EXACTLY the same as my impression in that 500+ thread that day... your implications were NOT ONLY insulting to me, but were based in your FALSE NOTIONS...rather than FACT.

ESPECIALLY considering that you showed NO RESPONSIVENESS TO THE FACTS that I presented to you more than once, but instead made it a big show about how you were once again being falsely accused. which you weren't.

At least not based on the fact that now we come to understand I was not the only one that you had made this negative impression on. Therefore it seems that MY impression was not a misinterpretion of your posts at all. Could this be perhaps be WHY after posting MY QUOTE as proof of your baseless claims that you are NOW done talking to me?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #140
148. ah.. there you go again
and you wonder where folks got the "equating my non-police reported false accusal" to "rape". The flippant responses like these. You are really good at doing that.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #148
160. Salin

He did it repeatedly as I can see you are well aware... however, I am not sure he is aware of it because he seems to be also good at twisting it back around... I am sorry to be so outright about it... but that thread really messed with my head. I was distinctly reading something loud and clear and when my posts were cut and he was instead continue to make some of the irrelevant points he was making ... that blew my mind.

Actually I am very glad NSMA openned this thread again just to observe that I was not the only one with this impression.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #148
195. More BS distortion... WTF is so hard about this language?

"and you wonder where folks got the "equating my non-police reported false accusal" to "rape"."


NO. I wonder where the hell anybody got the idea that I said my experience was WORSE than rape.

Please address the words I actually use... not the shit you imagine I might mean.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #195
217. from direct interaction
where you made a statement - I asked if you were equating it to my rape, you continued to debate elsewhere and ignored the question. All you needed to do - was to make the clarification that you were not, as it seemed, equating the events as equal events. You chose not to, I read the implication as being you did perceive them as equal.

It could be that in your defensiveness you became more and more strident in asserting your case that it only appeared that you were being dismissive of actual rapes. And that it that appearance perhaps is a "false appearance" be that as it may.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #217
235. No I just missed that post i guess...

"where you made a statement - I asked if you were equating it to my rape, you continued to debate elsewhere and ignored the question. All you needed to do - was to make the clarification that you were not, as it seemed, equating the events as equal events. You chose not to, I read the implication as being you did perceive them as equal."


I did however point out several times that I was not saying my experience was as bad as real rape.

Such as the following:

"To be clear, while I do consider the two situations (being raped, and being falsely accused of rape) to be very similar in terms of the type of violation and the type of resulting helplessness etc., I do not consider them to be of the same magnitude. The two are both a very similar kinds of trauma, but on a scale of 1 to 10 my situation was maybe a 2 and rape is all the way at 10.

The point I was making was that trying to blame the victim in either situation is a pretty fucked up thing to do."


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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
68. If I am on anyone's ignore list that's their loss
what they think of me is none of my business. I by NO means stated that those who said women lie are PRO RAPE. I DID imply that they used a mucky assessment of a study by Kamin and a right wing Scaife funded book by Somers that are repeatedly quoted on men's site's ( the Kmin one out of context as well) to deliberately blur the A) occurrence of rape, B) the incidence of false claims of rape C) the ISSUE itself.

As far as being a cheap rhetorical trick worthy of the most psychotic freeper.....I regard your post as projecting.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #68
125. Yeah you did...

"I by NO means stated that those who said women lie are PRO RAPE."

YOu posted a list of "men to watch out for" and taged it with "just wondering if any of the posters on this thread seem to fit the bill."

And now you are flame baiting to do it again.


________________________________________________________
nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sun Aug-03-03 11:09 PM
Response to Original message

528. POSSIBLE WARNING SIGNS: MEN TO WATCH OUT FOR . .


rapist can be anyone. He may be a family member, friend, neighbor, or a date. He may be someone you trust. Be aware and watch out for . . .

* men who make all of the decisions for you;

* men who seem angry or hostile toward women in general;

* someone who gives you the feeling that women are sex objects, or that women are to serve men;

* men with an unrealistic view of women. Does he idolize you - put you on a pedestal?;

* someone who pressures you for sex;

* someone who doesn't take "no" for an answer;

* men who show hostility toward women;

* men with domineering personalities. Does he act extremely jealous, possessive and treat you like his property?; and

* men who drink excessively. Alcohol can often cause a person to get angry, sexually aggressive, or violent.



http://www.smsu.edu/safetran/safety/rapeawareness.htm#s...

just wondering if any of the posters on this thread seem to fit the bill.
_____________________________________________________________






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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #125
164. I singled nobody out. I understand you resent me for posting that and
my other thoughts on the matter.

You can't win 'em all, I wouldn't even try.

You really should put me on ignore unless you can actually read what I say and respond to what I say. You seem to have difficulty doing that.
Especially since I can't recall ever using the term PRO RAPE.

Feel free to find me a link for that.

Is there a PRORAPE group somewhere? An advocacy group perhaps?
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #164
184. why would I not be surprised if there was

nor would it surprise me that various fraternities might not have a prorape agenda as part of their hazing process.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #164
198. Of course you did not single anybody out...

because you were attacking ALL the men in the thread.

"just wondering if any of the posters on this thread seem to fit the bill."
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #198
201. OK, when's your birthday.? I'm going to buy you a dictionary
"If any" certainly doesn't equate to ALL.

By the way...this thread is about an entirely different topic on which you haven't offered an opinion.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #201
211. You said it yourself... context is everything.


Oh but I guess that only applies to the men you are trying to imply might be rapists.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #211
218. No I don't have a different standard. There were many posts on that thread
that may have applied. I will say this. You have gone overboard on this thread just like you did on the other thread and to be frank, I would not want to ever be around you personally. Your posts regarding women are quite hateful. That in and of itself is a concern. tha fact that you can twist one communication to mean another is also of concern. Some people have a very poor relationship with reality. I do GUARD myself from being around people who do.

I understand that you CLAIM to have had a negative experience that left you this way. I urge you for your own good to go get counselling for it. Your anger is blinding you from being able to separate your personal experience from having anything ti say about this issue from a POLICY perspective which was the point of the thread and pretty much stayed true to it's intent until you arrived and made it about your agenda.

I won't respond to you further, I am putting you on ignore...( I might add you will be the ONLY person on my ignore list but I really can't deal anymore with your circular logic.)

Best luck in resolving your debilitating hostility.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #218
244. Why do you continue to try to make this personal?


"I will say this. You have gone overboard on this thread just like you did on the other thread"

Yeah, I'm way overboard in thinking that posting a "men to watch out for" as potential rapists list, then saying you wonder if it applies to men posting here, was an out of line attack.

(personal attacks deleted)

I'm not taking your bait.


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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #244
406. turnaround...why is it so personal to you?
why did you even bother with this thread?
fair question...it's the same one you asked nsma.
and why so many posts?
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #406
417. Good question!
I have been wondering that myself for several hours now! Why the apparent need to convince others of ... whatever, or change their minds about ... whatever, after exhaustive attempts to do so changes nothing or makes things worse?

The initial topic posed was an important one that deserves serious discussion. It's too bad that topics like this always seem to get hijacked into some form of power struggle.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #417
425. Accuse me of being a rapist and I take it personally.



Imply that men in a thread are rapists simply because they disagree with someone's opinion on a law... I take it personally.

Call me clueless and lie about my having said things which I never said... I take it personally.

Call me an abuser, and I take it personally.


And claiming I'm playing the victim is not going to keep me from defending myself from these lies and personal attacks.





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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #425
426. have you used the alert button?
that is what it's there for
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #125
181. THOSE ARE THE CRITERIA

They are real. They are crucial to memorize. It was responsible for NSMA to have posted them. Female posters here can read that criteria when they encounter it. Those telegraphic it on that long thread were in the minority. But you see that quote you pulled the one that I wrote. That was what I was responding to. Having the list like this puts it in general terms... but it would be silly of you to believe there did not exist in those threads a very very small percent of male posters EXHIBITING some of that criteria especially those who reverted to using verbtim some of the memes.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
77. Aren't you the poster who linked to a Christina Hoff Summers article
And you are calling another DUer a psychotic freeper????

Are you not aware that Summers is the female equivalent of Limbaugh?

Conservative Democrat? Yah, right.

Hoff Summers is a bullshit right wing airbag...I am amazed that you even attempted to substantiate your assertation about false rape accusations with her biased bullshit.

Maybe in YOUR circles, she is admired and seen as credible.

And, speaking of that ingore function...
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #77
141. What he quoted was correct....


it was on why a rape study done by Koss was flawed... and even she later admited that the study was in fact flawed.

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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #141
153. why does it keep getting floated on threads, then, as proof - not as
flawed. :shrug:
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #153
163. Because the numbers support the positions some hold...


and truth is not a big issue in the face of an agenda.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #163
179. what numbers are you refering to?

those bogus false accusation studies that have already been sufficiently refuted in the other long thread. Oh TLM, I infer, however it does not appear to me that you have been paying attention. it seems you have entered this thread to continue to purport what has already been proven as an issue that in comparison to the rape statistics themselves has very little to do with the reality.

The way it becomes clear that a percent of the female posters in this thread can spot what I will call a bad news guy (in real life), and or point out linguists or the use of memes as they pertain to this subject, it is just as easy to spot a female running some kind of deceptive sexual trick THAT IS if you are hip to all those signs and are listening to your mind rather than little willy.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #179
202. The 24% number in the Koss study.


"those bogus false accusation studies that have already been sufficiently refuted in the other long thread."

Says you... Koss herself admitted that her study was flawed and she counted women as rape victims who WERE NOT RAPED.

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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #202
207. this is one study

there are others. what is your reason for going back to the koss study? And don't be surprised if NSMA might jump in here because from what I have read NSMA has more fluency with these studies than I do.

Another question would be have you read more than one study? and all those points that NSMA has already made on the various studies, have you read NSMA's comments and all the statistics NSMA already provided?

Because it seems to me this was covered already in the 500 plus thread.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #207
212. I think the Koss study has the highest percentage...


of women who have been raped... that being 24%. I do not know of any other study that says 1 in 4 women has been raped.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #212
222. While it is in no way scientific
try asking a sampling of friends of how many incidents they are directly aware of (as in having been a victim, or having been a first hand recipient of an account).

I didn't talk about my rape for years. The really odd thing, is that when I did, among women, how many other women had gone through a very similar situation.

What has been even more striking than that, has been the number of stories of molestation as children by adult family friends or relatives.

In all cases these have been first hand references - not people talking about something that happened to a friend. But something that they had lived through.

Meanwhile, I knew of one case in college of a he-said/she-said rape accusation (no idea if it was real or false). Before yours it is the only situation which I can count as even a possible 'false' accusation of which I have been aware.

I honestly think that outside of hostile custody cases, or situations were false accusations of crimes are common (I worked with gang-related youth in a drop out prevention program in Detroit - lots of real and false accusations flew around in that setting), I do not believe it is a terribly common occurence.

But I have not done what I suggest you do - not as a scientific experiment - but as a possibly insight growing experience. I will start to make it a point of inquiry - see how many stories turn up.

As much as I suggest your posts sound as if you are diminishing the real incididence of rape, I am ready to learn if I, too am diminishing the real incidence of false accusations.

However, I do not equate the events as similar. They are different with bad - but not equivalent - fall out.

As I think I said somewhere on that thread, and as I know I have said multiple times on related threads at DU - I think there is a special disdain (and place in hell) for false accusers - both for the devastating damage that they do to the accused - and for the damage that they do to real rape victims by creating more people prone to deny real rape.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #222
230. Listen I want to be very clear about this...


"As much as I suggest your posts sound as if you are diminishing the real incididence of rape, I am ready to learn if I, too am diminishing the real incidence of false accusations."


I do not see it that way in either case. I never once got the impression... save for NSMA who openly said she doubted my claim... that anybody was diminishing my experience.

I do not understand how you would see one person having their experience as diminishing someone else's experience that was different. The two expereinces don't cancel each other out. They both exist, and continue to exist regardless of the other.

I do not understand where this mentality that this is some kind of competition for who is the bigger victim, comes from.

My intent was simply to point out that false accusation is a problem and it shouldn't be ignored or written off as the cost of doing business in the fight against rape.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #230
238. No one was suggesting it should be ignored
I just wrote a post that might give you an indication of how a combination of topics you covered with great passion (as we all have - all of our "danders" have been up) could be construed to mean this.

perhaps... just perhaps... this very painful discussion (as in we are going in circles and driving each other crazy) is useful - if we get to a better clarity - including misconceptions cleared up, as well as an understanding of how those misconceptions were (unintentionally) created.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #238
249. On the contrary... they said repeatedly it was not rational...
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 09:34 PM by TLM

My concern was characterized as boo hoo hooing... and even cited as evidence I was a rapist.

See for yourself...


""What this tells me, or should I say how I interpret is boo hoo hoo this law is going to get me in trouble I can't overpower these bitches anymore.""

My concern about this law and my objection to the way this law is written... according to this person means I'm a rapist.

I take issue with that kind of accusation... and I get attacked for somehow deminishing other's experiences.

"perhaps... just perhaps... this very painful discussion (as in we are going in circles and driving each other crazy) is useful - if we get to a better clarity - including misconceptions cleared up, as well as an understanding of how those misconceptions were (unintentionally) created."

It is nice that you try to find the good in this...
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #249
252. forget it
if you want to pick and pull - not look at the whole and ONLY want to look at OTHER people - this is a pointless exercise.

Good luck.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #252
263. You say nobody said it... and I point out quotes where they did.


I cite quotes to support my claims about how my positions were treated, rather than making generalized implications with no proof.




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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #263
265. what is it you hoped to accomplish?

you never answered this question. It seems you entered this thread with a bone to pick. In picking it, what is it you hoped to accomplish? Because prior to your arrive there was some very productive discussion going on. I know you are now done talking to me but perhaps you can tell Salin WHAT is it you hoped to accomplish by entering this thread with this bone it seems you have to pick and taking this thread so off topic like this?

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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #265
278. I'm not sure...


At first in the other thread my goal was to point out my thoughts and concern about false accusations.

Then some started in with crap about how that was my fault for being in "that kind" of relationship with "that kind" of girl etc. That pissed me off as it struck me as the exact same blame the victim mentality that rape victims often get when they report rape. I took issue with it, got insulted more insulted back, and things just kind of snowballed from there.

WHen I saw this thread, it seemed the same crap was being started up again and when I saw some claims about what was or wasn't said in the last thread, I felt the need to point out what was said.

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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #278
279. you see what you describe here (is it understanding)

this is the exact pain of the rape survivor... we think it is crap too... the problem is... is that to commiserate with you where you are right now with it... requires that these survivors agree with your assessments. All of your assessments are not based in fact... they are based in your rightful anger at having being falsely accused...

A woman violated your trust, perhaps more than one. It sucks. People do this too each other all the time... you have a need... your need conflicts with the needs that rape survivors have... within that the discussion became heated... trashing each other is not the way to go...

it does not breed understanding ... what it seems to me you need is understanding... perhaps these sex crime threads are not the place to expect understanding is what you will get... rape survivors require understanding as well... I am not sure any hear feel all that satisfied that they are understood either...

the goal is to impact a crime that is endemic in a way that all have the facts so that this crime decreases in number... when your need is to point out that women lie about it... this threatens the cause of women that have been raped... there are many of us... many more than people care to admit...

this probably is the heart of the matter...here not that I am bad or you are bad... but that both of us require compassionate understanding...
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #279
288. You know I got the impression that...

my simply existing with my experience was seen as a threat. Maybe not in a conscious way, but it seemed that those who are worried about rape from the perspective of rape victims... a guy who stands up and credibly says that sometimes rape claims are bogus, is a threat.

While in fact my experience does nothing to undermine those who have really been raped, on a basic emotional level it may feel that way. I can understand how someone who has been raped and has been faced with the difficulty of prosecuting a rape case, would feel uneasy with someone who stands as an example that not all rape claims are true.

All I represent is more difficulty for them in the overall equation, by raising the issue of the falsely accused.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #288
296. No.
The threat was in combining it with the message that a) rape is not that common (citing flawed and biased reports - or at least repeating it when someone else cites it).. AND that b) women lie a whole lot and are very devious... in the context of a rape thread where you are also asserting your situation.

In that context, although you are trying very, very hard not to hear what other participants in that thread are telling you - taken together you seemed to get more and more shrill and be asserting that women claiming rape often were lying and that you were an example.

So it is how you made your case - after stating it - and the other arguments that you made/used or got involved with that gave the impression that you were trying to dismiss the actuality of rape. That happens a great deal in this society and THAT is threatening.

It sounds as if now, that this was not your intention. But you would probably appear to be much more sincere in this if you would at least try (pretend even) to demonstrate that you can understand how those themes together constructed that impression. Especially to those who have been victim of rape.

None of that says anything about invalidating your experience.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #296
314. But see since i did not say those things like that...


I find that perception unfair and wrong.

"The threat was in combining it with the message that a) rape is not that common"


There is a big difference between saying that rape is not as common as the Koss study claimed, and saying rape is just not that common period.



"(citing flawed and biased reports - or at least repeating it when someone else cites it)"

The report I cited was correct regarding the flaws in the Koss study.


".. AND that b) women lie a whole lot and are very devious..."

Again as I pointed out in another thread, I was very clear about my statements regarding my opinion that all women lie... not that women lie a whole lot or women are very devious.


I think a large part of the hostile reaction to my statements has to do with how my statements are being slightly twisted and tweaked and misrepresented. Then people act on those misrepresentations as if that is what I actually said.

Now I know how Al Gore must have felt over that internet thing.

I would react the same way if someone actually said "rape is not that common and besides women all lie about rape." I can understand a hostile reaction to that mentality... but because that's not what I said, I get pissed off being accused of it.

I think some misrepresented my words to flame me, and others genuinely misunderstood my position.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #314
317. The fact that a number came away with this perception
suggests it was misunderstood. That is where you need to reflect - why numerous people misunderstood. Stop playing victim (I was flamed!)

Where we who misunderstood need to reflect is upon rereading what you wrote (and going back the original for a more full context) to understand where and why we misunderstood.

To ask us to now understand you, with out asking yourself to figure out how you played into that misconception... doesn't solve anything in terms of the present and future discussions.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #317
388. I asked you to point to posts or quotes....


that caused you to reach these misconceptions, and so far you've not been able to come up with anything other than to tell me to stop playing victim... when I point out I never said what you claim I said.

Maybe YOU need to re-read my posts and see where YOU misunderstood what I said. Because I've had no problem citing quotes and posts to support the claims I have made or the many posts where I repeatedly addressed these misconceptions, and corrected them... which it seems you continue to ignore.

So I'm done with this. I tried, and asked nicly for your input on how you misunderstood me, so I could look at it and really evaluate how i might have been unclear. I asked for you to point to the posts that gave you the impressions that I was saying things like false rape claims outnumber real rape claims... and yet you can't give me so much as a single quote.

So what's the point? Your conclusions and what I actualy said obviously have nothing to do with each other.

So you're going into ignore.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #388
390. clearly we are talking past one another
and are at an impasse. So be it. It is either ignore (which I don't do - personal choice) or at least avoiding each other on rape related topics.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #288
297. it never was a threat to me...

if it had been I never would have responded to your post to begin with...

yes you as an example that not all rape claims are true can be construed as a threat especially if the impression is that false accusations far out number rapes...

that is more what was threatening about you... because it isn't true... if you feel the need to continue to imply that it is true... you will continue to obtain resistance ... rather than compassion...

I'm tired now...
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #297
315. Ok please tell me when oh when


did I ever imply that false rape claims outnumber rapes?


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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #315
318. Here is an exercise for you
how is it - that numerous people came away with that impression - when you did not directly say that? Somewhere you have to look at your own role in this misunderstanding.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #318
344. That's why i am asking those people....


what was it...what post...what statement made you think I was saying false claims outnumber real rapes?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #344
348. yet you are unable to hear the response
:shrug: How many times do people have to repeat it? This isn't an exercise about defending oneself (as in ... but here is exactly what I said in this single post) - but a reflection exercise. So one can couch ones arguments in the future in ways that do not allow for such misunderstandings.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #348
391. Oh i see, so I just accept that I, being male, I'm wrong and at fault...


and without any specific examples of how I caused these misunderstandings, I'm supposed to alter my behavior to avoid them in the future?

How very fair.

Here's how I'll avoid the problem in the future... I'm going to ignore you now.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #315
335. okay I tried Salin tried NSMA tried Noiretbu tried.
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 12:43 AM by Wonder

you will have to figure it out for yourself... I read through all those out of context quotes you posted here in this thread... and in taking your quotes out of contexts you self censored out those aspects of your posts that clearly others in addition to myself felt insulted by. That that insulted us was evident in your quote. At the time it would not be a stretch to conclude you were projecting quite a bit of your anger onto all the women in there thread...

you also suggested things that were untrue about NSMA which was that she had stated that list that she posted applied to all the men in that thread. that was a false accusation you made. At no time did NSMA ever make a statement of that kind.

That list however does apply and it applies to a very small number of the men in these threads.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #335
363. You reached this conclusion....

yet you can not point to a single post or statement I made that caused you to reach this conclusion?

How exactly am I supposed to address this... if you can't even point to one statment or post?


"you also suggested things that were untrue about NSMA which was that she had stated that list that she posted applied to all the men in that thread. that was a false accusation you made. At no time did NSMA ever make a statement of that kind."

She posted a list of men to watch out for as potential rapists and tagged it with, "just wondering if any of the posters on this thread seem to fit the bill."

Do you not see a double standard in saying I am responsable for somehow creating the perception I think that false rape claims outnumber real rapes... although I never said that and in fact specificaly contradicted that misconception a couple of times, and nobody can seem to point to any specific post or statement as the cause of the misconception... yet someone who posts a list of potential rapist characteristics and says "just wondering if any of the posters on this thread seem to fit the bill" that's perfectly acceptable and doesn't imply anything?

I tried to meet you half way on this and really ask you for some answers... so I could understand... and what do I get, "you will have to figure it out for yourself"

Well you know what I've figured out... that I'm going to be the evil male no matter what I say or how I say it... so there is no point whatsoever in even bothering. What you arrive at as your conclusions about my positions seems to have almost nothing at all to do with the actual words I use or statements I make.

And my defending myself is now being presented by NSMA as the "abuser" trying to blame the abused. So you know what, you're all going on ignore. I'm not wasting anymore of my time on any of you.

bu bye



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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #278
291. okay well I thought after reading those posts 279 and 281
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 12:03 AM by Wonder

you would have returned to tell me what you need. I have to go now. I will check the thread tomorrow... in the mean time perhaps you should calm down THAT IS if you are worked up over this (I am not say you are but if you are) and take the time to read through the thread... the whole thread... not to respond but just to read it... there were a number of interesting side discussions in this thread. all in all this thread was a HELLAVA improvement over the last thread.

this issue is not about pointing fingers it is about men understanding women (at least to a degree)...and women understanding men... it is not even solely heterosexual...(as you can see some of the women here are not hetero - they too have been sexually abused by men - for the record I am hetero) misunderstanding is as endemic as this topic itself... lack of compassion is a hideous disease many of us contend with regularly...

perhaps when I have come back tomorrow you will have read the WHOLE thread and you can tell me better what you need or not...

or this discussion can continue in a more mutually affirming way for all involved... no one wishes to negate the male experience... but there are many facets and some of those that are specific to rape survivors and women in general do get brushed aside (or should I say they have been brushed aside) to make way for the concern of those males that seem to have great angst with a certain type of female...and or women in general (then there is the basest level of all those men that expect I will respond compassionately who regularly express "doing" women)... it's insulting... plain and simple (and no I am not suggesting you used the expression if you have I missed it.)

she exists... the gripe is real... but making me responsible for what she has done to you... is not right either.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #291
316. I'm not sure what you mean by what i need.


I don't need anything. I'm not here looking for sympathy or consolation or anything like that.

I'm simply a voice from a position that is not often heard.

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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #316
338. and I am simple a voice of a position

that is rarely understood.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #316
345. You seem to be trying to force the women posters to PROVE
something (for them to show you evidence) or for you to prove them wrong.

That is my impression.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #345
365. The only thing I want them to prove...


are their claims that I said things, which I never said... like that false rape claims outnumber real rape claims.

I never said that... yet they say I did and when I ask for a quote or a link... I get only insults or excuses.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #249
258. THE BOO HOO CAME AFTER IT WAS CLEAR
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 10:07 PM by Wonder

you remained unresponsive to the FACTS... I myself commiserated with you more than once. However, I never failed to point out as damaging as this false accusation was to you as it was it accounted for a very small percentage. What is it you hoped to accomplish by bring this up again?

Because the FACT is that I am not the only one that commiserated with your misfortune. I am aware that two other posters also commiserated to you. However, it seemed what you were also interested in doing was projecting your anger about this misfortune onto women in general with your numerous posts in regards to lying women. And what I believe to be a NOTION that this law shifts the burden of proof onto the accused. Which so far that I can ascertain it DOES NOT. However, since the 500+ thread it seems if they follow the lead of South Africa and perhaps the UK legislators may very well be considering a shift of burden of proof onto the accused AND there is a very good reason for that.

That Legislators may be considering this shift in burden happens to substantiate the FACT that the BURDEN OF PROOF has ALWAYS been on the STATE (AND THE WITNESS FOR THE STATE SO NOW REFERRED TO AS THE ACCUSER). It is a warranted considerations based on LOW RAPE CONVICTION RAPE. Another FACT that it seems was impossible to impress on some.

AGAIN, I REALLY do not understand what you hoped to accomplish by bringing all of this up again. Can you please explain?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #258
266. I do not understand... am I just supposed to never mention my situation


because you "commiserated" with me?

"you remained unresponsive to the FACTS..."

Tell me something... what response would you have considered acceptable?


Was I supossed to do?

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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #266
277. this is what you do you turn it around
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 11:03 PM by Wonder

TLM its okay... I am not sure understanding is possible here. I am reading you differently (as are others) than you are reading yourself. Again I believe it is best to drop it. I asked you a number of questions within THIS threads you never answered them, but instead seemed discontent with the responses you were getting not just from me here but others. I suggested the slate be wiped clean so I could understand where it is you were coming from in this thread in particular (not the other one).

Some of your responses were acceptable... read through the posts here 3 other posts here have attempted to explain what it was about your posts that bothered them. They were not bothered by the fact that you were falsely accused. No one disputed that. What was found to be unacceptable is that you wanted affirmation that false accusation was endemic. Many of the posters on the 500+ thread while they did commiserate with your bad experience could not provide you with that affirmation that it seemed you required. It seemed your intention was to make women the bad guys... some are... that was never disputed... you also remained unresponsive to facts by continuing to put forth that all, many, women lie... you gave examples of how they are much more deceptive liars than men. some are... I know women that are... not all...

Even in this thread in more than one post I address the no yes issue as well as that type woman that does exist whom I probably sometimes despise even more than you... I guess the point is (and it seems I am not the only one that got this from your posts) is that you were projecting your rightful anger at having been falsely accused on to women in general and doing so in a way that was read as an attack (again by more than just me).

When called on it you then accused the poster that called you on it of making personal attacks on to you, which in essence is what you yourself was doing. I really do not know how to rectify this more than just me had the very same impression, and interpreted your posts in the very same way I did. I do not know what to tell you at this point.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #277
280. Now how did you reach that conclusion?

"Some of your responses were acceptable... read through the posts here 3 other posts here have attempted to explain what it was about your posts that bothered them. They were not bothered by the fact that you were falsely accused. No one disputed that."

NSMA did, but no matter...

" What was found to be unacceptable is that you wanted affirmation that false accusation was endemic. Many of the posters on the 500+ thread while they did commiserate with your bad experience could not provide you with that affirmation that it seemed you required."

Now I do not get that. I did not want or require anybody to false accusations were endemic. What gave you that idea?





" It seemed your intention was to make women the bad guys... some are... that was never disputed... "

It seemed your intention was to make guys the bad guys... some are... that was never disputed...


"you also remained unresponsive to facts by continuing to put forth that all, many, women lie... you gave examples of how they are much more deceptive liars than men. some are... I know women that are... not all..."

Again i took great pains to point out exactly what my position was regarding my opinion on women lying. And I do not see how my opinion that women lie makes me unresponsive to facts?


"Even in this thread in more than one post I address the no yes issue as well as that type woman that does exist whom I probably sometimes despise even more than you... I guess the point is (and it seems I am not the only one that got this from your posts) is that you were projecting your rightful anger at having been falsely accused on to women in general and doing so in a way that was read as an attack (again by more than just me)."

OK I can see that one... saying all women lie can easily be seen as an attack because people assume I mean all women lie maliciously or all women always lie etc.. I tried to point out that I did not mean all women lie maliciously, but it didn't seem to do any good.




"When called on it you then accused the poster that called you on it of making personal attacks on to you, which in essence is what you yourself was doing."

I disagree... my opinions about women lying, were general. I'll grant you they coudl be taken as attacks, but there were not personal attacks. I did not fire off any personal attacks until well after I'd been hit with a "laundy list" of direct personal insults.

As I pointed out there is a difference between attacking my opinions, and attacking me for having them.


" I really do not know how to rectify this more than just me had the very same impression, and interpreted your posts in the very same way I did. I do not know what to tell you at this point."

Well at least you're trying, and that's something.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #280
284. do me a favor TLM read my post 281

<<<As I pointed out there is a difference between attacking my opinions, and attacking me for having them.>>>

I am not sure what happened exactly but going round and round is not going to get us anywhere...after you read post 281...tell me what you need?
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #280
285. be sure and read post 279 as well. 281 and 279

probably go together and then tell me what you need?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #280
325. Yes you are correct I did dispute it ..not in the beginning but at the end
One of the hallmarks of an abuser is to not take responsibility for their actions, pin it back on the abused and claim they were misunderstood or that others wouldn't lsten. Like it or not, your posts in that thread and this thread were textbook.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #325
343. And you are still personaly attacking... now I'm an abuser?


Still not taking your bait.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #343
353. Be clear that I am not attacking you
I am simply saying your rhetorical musings DO FIT the criterion for what an abuser would do.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #353
367. Oh yeah...calling me an abuser isn;t an attack...


what was I thinking... clearly it is all my fault, I must have misunderstood you, and not been listening.

Welcome to my ignore list.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #367
383. Great, no more circular reasoning. I called you nothing.
I pointed out that an abuser will take what is said, twist it and then claim everyone else didn't listen. They will perceive that they are the one being vicimized no matter the situation.

There are probably no less than 10,000 hits on the internet to become clear of this model for communication/ control. GOOGLE IT.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #266
281. no it is not that you are not suppose to mention your situation...

it was how you went about it... truth is... I probably share some of the same angers you have about lying women...

affirmation of people's realities is generally needed... your angst with lying women and your need for affirmation and the way you came across while it might have affirmed your reality it in a very harsh way negated the reality of others. Rape survivors. society negates their reality regularly. sometimes even their families negate their reality...

I guess it is just not a good combination... a victim of false accusation looking for affirmation from a victim of rape... when you think about it... especially when in attempting to cull affirmation you also were attacking women in general... and the very attack just happens to be what is termed as a FALSE NOTION in terms of the rape statistics...'

gaining compasssion for your hurt and anger at being falsely accuse does not necessarily require that it must be proven that women lie... gaining compassion for my hurt and anger as a rape survivor does not require that I prove all males are rapists all that all males want to rape... that would be a false notion...
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #212
226. I am confused as to why you are raising the koss study

I mean what is your point? I do not want to infer or imagine or speculate on what your point might be, because I am not really sure what it is? I mean what are you arguing in this thread?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #226
234. I think the point
seems to be the belief that rape isn't really that common.

Indeed if the poster wants to understand how others could have so incorrectly misread his intent - I think it is a combination of this line of posting that to readers appears to be rather dismissive of rape a) -- sure its bad when it happens... but it really doesn't happen that often ... b) a series of posts about how much women lie that later on question evolves out to all people lying - but there seemed to be alot about women lying - and in this context the implication was - alot of the claims about rape are probably just women lying about it... and c) seeming to equate rape (frequency of incidence and seriousness of crime) with false accusation - by a repeating point b - stressing his own experience in point c and never acknowledging actual rapes. Granted point c - which I admit was the impression I was given - is the biggest jump - given the frequency of the logic followed - it was a very easy conclusion to jump to. I will stand corrected when the person at least tries to understand how this impression was given/received.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #234
239. Well yeah especially since the poster had over 85 posts jockeying for it
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 09:01 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
goodness, it's not as though we misinterpreted ONE post or even 10.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #239
250. Thankyou NSMA and SALIN
I am going through the 500+ thread BEFORE all the posts were deleted. The way that thread was deleted may not substantiate what is being said here. But salin is correct the interpretations are accurate and were based on direct interaction. These FALSE NOTIONS that were being put forth were not only evident in the 500+ thread but were also evident in all other kobe threads prior to the 500+ thread.

What TLM is suggesting is that this impression is not based in reality when not only is it based in reality, it directly is meant to counter THOSE FALSE NOTIONS that "this small crew of guys" that I referred to seem to be stubbornly purporting in direct oppositions to the multitudinous FACTS that many of us offered to refute their FALSE NOTIONS. Some of this "small crew of guys" also expressed more than once these MEMES which are clearly stated on the CRITERIA list.

I AM ACTUALLY GLAD THIS HAS COME UP AGAIN, and even gladder that I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT NOTICED IT AND CALLED IT.

I stand by that quote of mine that TLM seems to have posted more than once on this thread now. IT IS NOT A MISINTERPRETATION.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #234
262. OMFG... this is insane.
"seems to be the belief that rape isn't really that common."

I say there are false accusations... and somehow you hear that rape really isn't that common?



"Indeed if the poster wants to understand how others could have so incorrectly misread his intent - I think it is a combination of this line of posting that to readers appears to be rather dismissive of rape"

No it is dismissive of studies that try to characterize consensual sex as rape for the sake of inflating the numbers. That is not to say rape doesnt happen or doesn't matter or any of the rest of the bullshit you assign to me, without my having said anything even close.


"a) -- sure its bad when it happens... but it really doesn't happen that often ... "

Never said anything even remotely close to that.


"b) a series of posts about how much women lie"

No, rather my comments were that all women lie, not how much, as how much a given woman lies would be an individual variable.


" that later on question evolves out to all people lying -"

The fact men lie is usually assumed... as such there's no need to point it out other than to correct the misconception that I was saying only women lie.


" but there seemed to be alot about women lying"

Yeah because almost nobody cares if you say men lie... doesnt even show up on the radar.

" - and in this context the implication was - alot of the claims about rape are probably just women lying about it... and"


Bullshit. I was very clear and pointed out at least 4 or 5 times that I wasn't saying that rape claims are probably lies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"I say that I feel all women lie, and I get accused of having said all women lie about rape claims or that all rape claims are false, which I never said."

again...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"Now while I agree that I was the victim of a lying and dishonest woman, I do not think most women are like her. I think all women lie, but not all women are malicious and hurtful with their lies. In fact Id say that for the majority of women, their lies are not hurtful towards others. Like a lie about your weight or age... that doesnt hurt anybody. So when I say I think all women are dishonest, that is not to say all women are the same as the woman who falsely accused me of rape."




" c) seeming to equate rape (frequency of incidence and seriousness of crime) with false accusation "


Again I specifically pointed out this was not the case...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"To be clear, while I do consider the two situations (being raped, and being falsely accused of rape) to be very similar in terms of the type of violation and the type of resulting helplessness etc., I do not consider them to be of the same magnitude. The two are both a very similar kinds of trauma, but on a scale of 1 to 10 my situation was maybe a 2 and rape is all the way at 10.

The point I was making was that trying to blame the victim in either situation is a pretty fucked up thing to do."



"- by a repeating point b - stressing his own experience in point c and never acknowledging actual rapes."

WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?


Here are just a few of the posts where I did just that... and acknowledged the rapes that some reported.

"The fact real victims have a hard time dealing with the stress and emotional damage of being the victim of a real rape and pressing charges for real rape, does not change the fact that some women who were not raped have no difficulty at all making false charges of rape.

The reason someone who is lying can make false rape accusations without any difficulty, is precisely because the claims are false, and there was no rape and thus no emotional trauma to start with."


and


"And some women pointed out that they were raped, but describe much more serious situations that have NOTHING to do with this law. All these stories do is prove that rape exists, and that fact was never even in question. So how exactly do stories of real rape invalidate concerns about false accusations of rape?"


and


"I did not say what you claimed happened did not happen... I simply pointed out that what happened to you, while awful, wouldn't be affected at all by this particular law because it was a far more serious crime from the very start. Whereas what happened to me could very well have gotten a lot worse had this law been in place at the time.

That is not to say that what happened to you doesn't matter, or that it wasn't worse than what happened to me, but rather that this law would have made no difference at all in the situation you describe.

And as bad as what happened to you was, it does not change the fact that there are false accusations of rape made by dishonest women and nobody stands up to defend those men who are falsely accused... and god forbid the falsely accused man is black and poor.


I do not require any agreement, you're free to disagree with me completely and I have no problem with that. I had nothing against you, until you started insulting me and personally attacking me, then implying I was a rapist hiding some laundry list. That shit was over the line."




" Granted point c - which I admit was the impression I was given - is the biggest jump - given the frequency of the logic followed - it was a very easy conclusion to jump to. I will stand corrected when the person at least tries to understand how this impression was given/received."


I went to great lengths to point out exactly what I meant and clear up the misconceptions you talk about. In fact each issue you listed I had specifically addressed already... some multiple times.

So how you continue to maintain this misconception, despite my repeated and pointed and specific refutations and clarifications, is beyond me.

What more can I do that to specifically point out exactly how the conception is in error and then specifically clarify my position?

It is not my fault if you continue to choose to ignore my statements clarifying the exact meaning of my words in favor of maintaining your misconceptions.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #262
269. I already gave up
and ask why so many misread you. Tried to point out how the totality of the themes of your posts came across. When you leave out all of the venom that was posted along with those posts - it certainly does leave a different, cleaned up, tone.

As I said before: good luck. I am done.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #226
253. In this thread... someone asked about it above...


Someone asked if CD was the one who posted it and challenged it's accuracy.

I simply pointed out that to the extent that it pointed out the flaw in Koss' study, it was correct.


In the 500 post thread CD pointed out that Koss' study was flawed because it counted 100% consentual sex where alcohol had been consumed before hand as rape... even when the women flat out said it wasn't rape. WHen CD pointed this out, he got attacked for it...




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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
79. and your simplistics pronoucements
e.g., "most rapes can be prevented by simply saying "no," and "yelling "rape" is an effective way to stop an attack" means YOU should abstain from any thread on the subject.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #79
150. Again with the dishonesty....


The context of that statment was regarding date rape, not stanger rape, and yet no matter how many times he pointed that out... you just kept up acting like he was talking about stanger rape.



"However, despite the sad anicdote, stranger rape is one of the rarest forms of the crime, constituting only about 17% of all rapes committed in this country. In the typical case, the rapist is an aquaintence of the victim, who he hopes to keep quiet by shame or intimidation.

Yelling "RAPE" informs the assailant in no uncertain terms that he isn't going to get away with it. ( Biting and giving him a bloody nose doesn't hurt either. )"
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #150
168. *sigh* WHAT BOTH OF YOU FAIL TO REALIZE...STILL
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 06:58 PM by noiretblu
and as i pointed out to your friend, it that there is no *friendly* rape. an "acquaintance" may use a gun or a knife, ya know? SINCE RAPE IS AN ACT OF VIOLENCE, it shouldn't take a woman or a rocket scientist or both, to get that a rapist may be prepared to harm, or kill, even if he is "acquainted" with the victim...should it? and my second point in the first thread was that by assuming some rapes are more *friendly* because the rapist is an acquaintance, our conservative friend's "advice" could get a woman killed. my final point in that thread...yelling "rape" and "no" is not likely to stop someone who has broken in your house with a gun and says "i will kill you if you scream." and just to drive this point home further: it wouldn't make much difference if the rapist was acquainted with the victim and used a gun or a knife...are you still failing to grasp this?
which was the example i used to elicit his "advice" was
it was in fact an example from a post posted by a DU member about his neighbor being raped...by someone who broke into her house...with a weapon. does this clarify anything for you yet?

THERE ARE NO *FRIENDLY* RAPES, as the poster implied. MY MESSAGE TO YOUR FRIEND: YOU ARE AS CLUELESS AS YOUR RW SOURCES AND CLUELESS *ADVICE*. i offer this message to anyone who still doesn't get it.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #168
208. NOBODY... NOBODY said anything about "friendly" rapes.
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 08:12 PM by TLM

you are agiain MAKING SHIT UP!

Why can you not address the terms being used instead of making shit up?


His point was very simple and very clear... that in a date rape situation the woman clearly saying no or yelling rape while fighting back is a lot more likely to stop the rape than if she says or does nothing to indicate her lack of consent, then afterwards says it was rape.

This has nothing to do with a rapist using a knife or someone breaking into your house or any of the crap you brought up to muddy the waters.

We're talking about a situation were sex was consentual, then consent was withdrawn... that was the topic of the thread. Not someone using a knife or a gun or breaking into someone's house.

Do you understand the difference?

I think he was right... most date rapes would stop cold if the woman screamed RAPE instead of "I have to go home" or "Maybe we should stop?" At the very least there would be no confusion.
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ConservativeDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #208
221. Even when it's stranger rape, it's better to resist...
So says the justice department:
"For both completed rape and sexual coercion, victims of completed acts were less likely to take protective action than those who experienced attempted victimization. This finding suggests that the intended victim's willingness or ability to use protection might be one reason attempts to rape and coerce sex failed. Note that the most common protective action was using physical force against the assailant. Nearly 70 percent of victims of attempted rape used this response -- again, a plausible reason many of these acts were not completed."

And from another article:

The available scientific literature on this question is divided, with some studies concluding physical resistance -- with all types considered together -- increases a woman's chance of the rape being completed and/or that she will be seriously injured. (This wording is unavoidable but is not meant to imply that the rape itself is not a grave injury.) Others find the opposite, again with all forms of physical resistance analyzed as one.

However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.


So in conclusion, remember that it is better to resist. Use a knife or gun if you have it. Gouge their eyes if you don't. No mercy until you are safe.

- C.D.

( yes, there are places in this world for guns. )



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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #221
229. SURE...TELL THAT TO A 110LB WOMAN
BEING ATTACKED BY A 200LB MAN WITH A GUN.

THE POINT IS:

NOT IN ALL CASES...

TO SUGGEST OTHERWISE IS IRRESPONSIBLE. THAT IS MY POINT.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #229
243. and by doing so one starts to unintentionally shift the blame
back to the victim. She must not have done x,y,z so it must be her fault.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #221
232. I'd like the actual links to your quotes please
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #232
256. MY QUOTE IS #400 responding to # 397 responding to post #369
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 09:58 PM by Wonder

noiretblu Donating member (1000+ posts)
Thu Jul-31-03 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #369

379. no shit...victims abound in this thread
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 12:54 AM by noiretblu


there is ONE man here who claims he was falsely accused of rape. this same man has repeatedly stated that *most* women are liars. his credibility is zero with me.
there are several women on DU who have shared stories of rape here, yet the hysteria about false accusation is rampant. one man, several women. i'm with you nsma...these immature, penis-obessed boys disgust me
i will not let these boorish penis-obsessed boys change my view of REAL MEN...they are a pathetic, yet vocal minority who don't seem to understand how their own bodies work, let alone how to control themselves, nor do they feel the need to do so.
i feel sorry for the women stupid enough to deal with them. #379


dymaxia Donating member (374 posts)
Thu Jul-31-03 09:59 AM

Response to Reply #379
397. It's really alarming


In every forum I go to, there are too many women who come forward about their rapes. Many of us never saw the rapist behind bars.

And yet they say we are lying or at least exaggerating.

And it kind of pisses me off that people do have to talk about their experiences in a public forum just to counter the bullshit spouted by people who think that no rape victim reads this forum. Where do people get off saying that a rape charge is too easy to make, that it's not at all psychologically difficult, that the whole process is not difficult? How can a man make such a claim and expect that no victim will challenge him?

I second the :puke:

___________________________________

I respond to post 327 in sarcasm. My reference relates my impression of the numerous posts that I read through since I arrived as the Kobe case had just hit DU. I can also pull for you just how many times I related personal knowledge of the judicial procedures in regards to these FALSE NOTIONS in just the 500+ thread alone.

NOT COUNTING how many times I had already countered with FACTUAL first hand experience with the police procedures to pre-trial procedures to trial procedures. AND the small crew of guys refused to exact this first hand knowledge of fact DUE TO THOSE FALSE NOTIONS OR FANTASIES I REFER TO that it seemed were IN THEIR HEAD (PUN INTENDED).

Yet it was suggested more than once that my experience was baseless and where was my proof. I AM THE PROOF. Problem is because this small crew of guys fell so many women LIE ABOUT RAPE. I guess they did not understand that my accounts were FACTUAL based on FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE. ergo: Sarcastic response to post #327


Wonder (674 posts) C Jul-31-03 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #397

400. What Victims Dymaxia?
Edited on Thu Jul-31-03 10:23 AM by Wonder


This has been stated before and MORE THAN ONCE, however according to this small crew of guys so so so plagued by their FANTASIES and FEARS...incidence of actual rape are so minimal that instead they feel MACHO enough to denigrate the FACTUAL AND REAL LIFE experiences of the RAPE SURVIVORS here as merely that of HYSTERIA. According to them MOST OFTEN RAPE IS TRIED on FALSE ACCUSATION only. They then suggest it is the RAPE SURVIVORS who must come back to reality. Is it a wonder how often the word NO is completely misunderstood?

I think these particular guys should ALL receive life size inflatable dolls for their birthday. Since they can not seem to distinquish their FANTASIES from FACT, a life size inflatable DOLL will be apt to sufficiently forfill their needs and they won't have to be so so so anxious about being falsely accused of anything. Not even IGNORANCE.

-----------------------

Now as to the rest of the quotes TLM reference he is on his own with the links... however OUT OF CONTEXT reference to other posters quotes is unacceptable IMHO. I can speak for myself. I the response quote was in response to A REALITY (this small crew of guys) that I observed with my own eyes over the course of participating in 2-3 thread prior to the 500+ thread. which actually IMHO turned out to be the worst thread of all of them.
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #221
251. i consider myself a pretty tough person not without fear
but strong nonetheless

i wonder if the men in the Justice Department or even here at DU have ever had a gun,not just in their face but, in their mouth-safety off hammer down? and the person holding the gun is telling you they are going to kill you?

would you have been afraid or struggled?

what you are promoting here is a out for women that doesn't exist except in the world of paper.

most women can fight back and do, but with most rape cases they don't stand much of a chance of fighting their attacker off unless they are armed ahead of time-pepper spray,gun,etc.




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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #208
225. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WORD "IMPLY" MEANS?
DO YOU *REALLY* UNDERSTAND WHAT THE WORD "IMPLY" MEANS?
read this slowly:

EVEN "DATE" RAPISTS MY USE FISTS OR A WEAPON!!!!!!!!!!!

GET A FUCKING CLUE!!!!!!!!!!! by refusing to accept THAT POSSIBILITY, YOU AND YOUR CONSERVATIVE FRIEND ARE BOTH IMPLYING THAT THIS "TYPE" OF RAPE IS MORE FRIENDLY THAN ANOTHER "TYPE."

RAPE, IS ALWAYS AN ACT OF VIOLENCE...IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU KNOW THAT RAPIST! DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S A "DATE," AN "ACQUAINTANCE" OR A "STRANGER."

TO IMPLY VIOLENCE IS ONLY ASSOCIATED WITH "STRANGERS" IS FALSE, AND IT IS IN FACT CLAIMING "DATE" AND "ACQUAINTANCE" RAPES ARE MORE FRIENDLY. AND OF COURSE, WEAPONS MAY BE USED IN ANY RAPE...EVEN THOSE WHERE CONSENT IS WITHDRAWN.

YOUR SILLY FRIEND'S SILLY ADVICE WAS POSTED IN THAT THREAD ABOUT WITHDRAWING CONSENT. I RESPONDED THERE, AND YOU REPOSTED IT HERE.

:wtf: SO IF YOU WANTED TO STAY ON TOPIC, YOU SHOULD DO SO.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #225
273. Oh here we go again...

"EVEN "DATE" RAPISTS MY USE FISTS OR A WEAPON!!!!!!!!!!!

GET A FUCKING CLUE!!!!!!!!!!! by refusing to accept THAT POSSIBILITY,"


Who said it was not possible? I see only the statement that is is much less likely and it is.


" WEAPONS MAY BE USED IN ANY RAPE...EVEN THOSE WHERE CONSENT IS WITHDRAWN."

True, but as was said it is highly unlikely that a withdrawn consent situation is going to turn into a gun to your head or knife to your throat rape. Yes it is possible, but not likely.

In most date rape situations, what you describe is not the case.


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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #273
308. highly unlikely...
how do you know what is and is not "likely?" how do you know what most "date rape" situations are like? the answer, of course, is that you HAVE NO IDEA what is and is not likely or unlikely. um...again, that is the point of this entire exchange.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #308
320. Simple logic...


What I know about date rape comes from the various cases and reports Ive read about, heard, seen on court TV etc.

Also basic logic would indicate that there has to be a spectrum in the severity of rapes... ranging from an act that just crosses the line to an act that goes all the way to murder. And that the less severe end would be the largest group.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #320
328. less severe...still as clueless as ever
to suggest that what is trivalized as "date rape" is automatically "less severe"...some logic you got working there. and of course....here comes the denial. either a few women here are *really* smart, or...

and IF someone used a weapon, e.g., fists during a "date rape" would that qualify as "less severe?" how about if someone commits murder during a "date rape"...would it then be classified as some other, "more severe" type of rape?

surely, you aren't still IMPLYING that weapons aren't used in "less severe date rape situations" are you? (insert denial......here)

please...your impeccable logic is needed to explain again why "date rape" is logically "less severe?" thank you in advance.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #328
376. More personal attacks...


"to suggest that what is trivalized as "date rape" is automatically "less severe"..."

Do you believe all rapes are equally severe in terms of threat of physical harm or death?


"and IF someone used a weapon, e.g., fists during a "date rape" would that qualify as "less severe?""

Certainly less severe than using a knife or a gun, yeah.


" how about if someone commits murder during a "date rape"...would it then be classified as some other, "more severe" type of rape? "


I do not think you comprehend what I'm talking about. You sound like you think I'm trying to say some rape is not so bad and other rape is worse... or something like that. I'm not talking about the severity from a standpoint of one being more or less wrong than another.

What I am talking about is the level of risk to the woman's life/health. There is more risk to life and limb in some rapes than in others.


"please...your impeccable logic is needed to explain again why "date rape" is logically "less severe?" thank you in advance."

Replace the term severe with dangerous... what I am talking about is the level of danger posed by the rapist. A man with a knife to your throat is a lot more dangerous than the asshole boyfriend who won't take no for an answer. Fighting back against one could get you killed, and fighting back against the other could stop the rape.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #376
386. still playing the victim, i see
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 01:53 AM by noiretblu
let's play...you write: Do you believe all rapes are equally severe in terms of threat of physical harm or death?

NO, nor do i believe that "date rapes" are automatically less harmful.
what is common to all rapes is the harm victims experience...and of course that varies also. still, i think it's safe to say that most victims would argue that they perceived a threat, and experienced actual physical harm. after all, rape is a crime of violence.

I wrote:
"and IF someone used a weapon, e.g., fists during a "date rape" would that qualify as "less severe?""

this is your response:
Certainly less severe than using a knife or a gun, yeah.

and you take offense to being called clueless? again...if during a
"less severe date rape," if the rapist threatened the victim with a knife or a gun...would you still consider that a "less severe" rape?
geez............

i wrote:
" how about if someone commits murder during a "date rape"...would it then be classified as some other, "more severe" type of rape? "

You wrote:
I do not think you comprehend what I'm talking about. You sound like you think I'm trying to say some rape is not so bad and other rape is worse... or something like that. I'm not talking about the severity from a standpoint of one being more or less wrong than another.

seems somewhat reasonable, though you still don't seem to address my issue....a common tactic of yours.

then you wrote:

What I am talking about is the level of risk to the woman's life/health. There is more risk to life and limb in some rapes than in others.

***NEWFLASH: in the example, i gave you would you say that there was risk to life and limb? that is, a gun or a knife being used during a "less severe date rape." you don't seem to grasp the connection to my example, and your own words.

then you write:
Replace the term severe with dangerous... what I am talking about is the level of danger posed by the rapist. A man with a knife to your throat is a lot more dangerous than the asshole boyfriend who won't take no for an answer. Fighting back against one could get you killed, and fighting back against the other could stop the rape.

finally...somewhat of a breakthtough. now...what about an asshole boyfriend who has a knife? could THAT get a woman killed? and what makes YOU think THAT isn't a possibility? would saying "NO" magically stop a boyfriend with a knife, anymore than a stranger with a knife. this is what you are implying. this is what CD was implying. i am not twisting your words...you are doing fine all by yourself.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #386
397. when you can respond without personal attacks let me know.


"and you take offense to being called clueless?"

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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #397
399. poor TLM...this tactic...again
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 02:05 AM by noiretblu
:nopity: clueless is hardly an "insult"...in your case, it's an adjective. i know the truth hurts, but take heart...i am prone to lying (it's genetic) :hi:
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #399
404. Obviously you're more interested in flames than debate.



welcome to my ignore list.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #404
408. it is MY pleasure and honor
:nopity: it's hard to debate with someone who isn't willing to do so. you seem more interested in repeating the same tired nonsense that's easily refuted...with a miminal use of logic. between that and constantly painting yourself as a victim...methinks you aren't up to the task.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #408
411. I don't believe it Noiretblu this is right back to square one.

why is this still going round and round? what is the need? It escapes me... okay whatever...
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #208
242. actually that isn't true.
I've described my situation. DIdn't work. Hearing several friends situation (one had been taken to an isolated park)... didn't work. All were so-called acquaintance rapes.

What would be more accurate is: to one who has never lived it... it would seem that it could be prevented by doing x,y,z...

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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #242
300. I think the confusion is in the idea of prevention...


While some of those date rapes where the issue of consent is in question... or rather where sex is only continuing because her lack of consent has not been made clear... in those cases shouting rape or no would likely stop it.

However, in cases where the rapist is going to rape regardless... what resistance does is create evidence. While it probably wont prevent the rape, it will make it a hell of a lot more likely that you'll be able to put the rapist behind bars.

It isn't exactly like the captain of the football team can claim it was consensual sex, when the victim has a black eye and a cracked rib. But that's a call the individual woman has to make... as to whether or not she feels her life is in danger if she resists.


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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #300
304. sadly
many cases don't get reported. So the idea of prevention is very important. And in the cases that you and I agree that are not preventable through "NO!" or struggle, but that are not going to be reported anyway, prevention moves to greater societal understanding (especially among men, who are more likely but not exclusively the ones doing the raping) to make it less likely that it happens in the first place.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #304
310. yeah...i'd love to hear some opinions about how to prevent
men from committing rape. it would seem an appropriate prevention topic for men to address. funny, it hasn't been mentioned much in this or any other thread.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #310
319. I have tried to raise it before
and you are the first person to ever respond.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #319
321. well let's open it up: MEN...any ideas about how to stop MEN from raping?
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 12:23 AM by noiretblu
there have been plenty of suggestions about women should try to stop men from raping them. any ideas on how to prevent some men from becoming rapists? TLM? ConservativeDemocrat? AgainstMe? ANYONE??
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #321
326. Deserves its own thread
not sure how to pull it off with the new post rules... but it is a good question.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #321
329. Actually there are a number of male organizations committed to
preventing rape and a nationwide advocacy group>

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/info-url2699/info-url_lis...


Men Can Stop Rape (formerly Men's Rape Prevention Project) empowers male youth and the institutions that serve them to work as allies with women in preventing rape and other forms of men's violence. Through awareness-to-action education and community organizing, we promote gender equity and build men's capacity to be strong without being violent.

MCSR is an outgrowth of D.C. Men Against Rape, a volunteer profeminist collective founded in 1987by a handful of men seeking to raise their own and the community's consciousness about men's violence against women. In 1997, MCSR incorporated as a nonprofit organization with the goal of carrying forward and expanding on its original mission to increase men's involvement in efforts to end men's violence.

Now, we are a concerned community of men and women of all ages, from many walks of life, working locally and nationally for peace, equity and gender justice. We are men and women who find strength in compassion and nonviolence and who strive to support young men who are courageous enough to challenge the "rape culture" in which we live.

We do not believe men's violence is inevitable. We believe that rape, battering, and other forms of men's violence are learned behaviors, choices that men make to exert power and control over others that are reinforced by a society that defines manhood through domination.

We believe that men can unlearn these damaging lessons and live peacefully with women and other men. To do so, however, we must redefine what it means to be a man.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #329
333. perhaps this is a good resource for education
for those concerned about false accusation. something tells me they might not know about this organization...since none have mentioned it.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #333
341. I did post it on the other thread
you might wish to peruse some of their data as well. None of the cite an instance as high as 41% of false claims of rape...interesting eh? Are these men abdicating their rights?
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #341
352. i don't think so...
thanks for posting this again. it is a great resource, and i am impressed with their mission and their work. these men are doing great work.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #329
334. I am very glad to learn about this group.
thanks for linking it. :thumbsup:
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #321
339. is this thread open or only under consideration (should be in GD)

has it been openned. it is a good idea.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #310
327. That's like asking how to prevent women from commiting infanticide.
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 12:37 AM by TLM

The mind of someone willing to commit the act is already so fucked up, that I do not know how much prevention before the fact can work.


Beyond situations where the consent issue simply is not clear... and when you move on to a rapist who is going around with the intention of raping, it is not like they do not know what they are doing is wrong.

So it is not like education is going to help.

We could get rid of religion... that'd probably cut out a goodly number of sex crimes right there.


I think really the only practical thing we can do is focus on preventing child sexual abuse. As I understand it most rapists were sexualy abused themselves at some point. So that might be the only real way to end the cycle... something like Dean's success by six program that has cut child sexual abuse in VT by like 70%.

But that still won't stop the odd wacko who just isn't right upstairs.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #327
331. other than the title, this is one of your more reasonable posts
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 12:39 AM by noiretblu
however, i agree with salin...the topic deserves it's own thread.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #327
342. the consent issue is clear

why do you feel it is unclear. Please explain.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #310
347. Noiretblu there is a Mens Group headed by an X Sports Figure
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 12:53 AM by Wonder

An ex ball player... but I don't follow the sports so I don't remember his name... he has a group whose aim is to address rape and violence against women by ascertaining what the boys false perceptions are. I saw him on Oprah a couple of years ago. I feel Man speaking out about rape and addressing these myths is also necessary.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #347
360. yes...i've seen this guy on a talk show
i can't think of his name, but i saw him on oprah. i agree with you about men speaking out...it's important and necessary. funny though...it seems women are most familiar with these groups.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #300
313. But it can also get a woman killed
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 12:06 AM by nothingshocksmeanymo
And does.

Once upon a time, what a woman wore was evidence that it wasn't rape even if forcible.

Once upon a time, where a woman frequented was evidence that it wasn't rape even if forcible.

Once upon a time, if a woman was previously sexually active outside of marriage, it wasn't rape even if forcible.

Once upon a time, if it was her husband that raped her, it wasn't rape even if forcible.

Once upon a time if a woman expected to keep her job, she put out even if she was married.

Laws expanding to fit current times, progress and current definitions are nothing new. It happens in business. It happens in property rights. It happens in all sections of the law.

Clarifying what is or isn't consent is simply progress.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
132. Or we're worried about being labeled as rapists... again.


A small sample of things posted in that other thread...

"however according to this small crew of guys so so so plagued by their FANTASIES and FEARS...incidence of actual rape are so minimal that instead they feel MACHO enough to denigrate the FACTUAL AND REAL LIFE experiences of the RAPE SURVIVORS here as merely that of HYSTERIA."

Requests for a link to anybody in the thread saying this were met with insults.

The same with this statement...


"But somewhere along the road this turned into a few idiot morons trying to argue that continuing to force a girl to have sex when she is pleading for you to stop is either perfectly normal, within a mans right, or impossible to help."


Requests for links to ANYBODY in the thread having said these things, were met with more insults and flames.


Simply disagreeing with this law was characterized as evidence of one BEING a rapist.


"What this tells me, or should I say how I interpret is boo hoo hoo this law is going to get me in trouble I can't overpower these bitches anymore."

"It even seems to me those most at odds with this law have broken it more than once, because of all those lying manipulative bitch's."


And those are just the things that the mods didn't delete for being too over the top.





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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. I said this
"however according to this small crew of guys so so so plagued by their FANTASIES and FEARS...incidence of actual rape are so minimal that instead they feel MACHO enough to denigrate the FACTUAL AND REAL LIFE experiences of the RAPE SURVIVORS here as merely that of HYSTERIA."

I wrote that.. what is your point now... perhaps I can clarify it now.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #137
156. My point is that NOBODY said any of that...

"however according to this small crew of guys so so so plagued by their FANTASIES and FEARS...incidence of actual rape are so minimal that instead they feel MACHO enough to denigrate the FACTUAL AND REAL LIFE experiences of the RAPE SURVIVORS here as merely that of HYSTERIA."

I asked for a link to anybody in the thread having said anything even close to that, and you couldn't provide one because nobody said that.

You just flat out made that shit up.

Nobody denied the experiences of those who said they'd been raped, let alone called it hysteria.

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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #156
167. what exactly is made up about that statement?

it was an impression. I am not the only poster on that thread that had it... in essence, you were more than once presented with actual facts regarding due process and burden of proof. You refused to believe the facts... and in your refusals instead you were purveying your experience as if it was indicative of the majority rather than the minority.

your experience is indicative of a very small percent. The experiences of some of the posters in that thread is not only indicative of the majority that we are in majority (instances of rape occurs in far greater number than instances of false accusation)... is backed up by fact as well as statistics.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you think a clarification was made to a rape law? Specfically this particular clarification that a women is within the law to change her mind? I am not sure you ever answered that question the first go round on this same topic.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #167
216. EVERYTHING... the whole damn thing was made up...

"however according to this small crew of guys so so so plagued by their FANTASIES and FEARS...incidence of actual rape are so minimal that instead they feel MACHO enough to denigrate the FACTUAL AND REAL LIFE experiences of the RAPE SURVIVORS here as merely that of HYSTERIA."


"it was an impression."

Then why did you say, "according to this small crew of guys" instead of according to you?

"I am not the only poster on that thread that had it... in essence, you were more than once presented with actual facts regarding due process and burden of proof. You refused to believe the facts... and in your refusals instead you were purveying your experience as if it was indicative of the majority rather than the minority."

What are you smoking? I kept being told that this law did nothing to change the burdon of proof... I pointed out that it provided a rational for the lack of physical evidence... so how in the fuck does that translate to my claiming my experience was more common than rape?

How does that translate to saying all rape caims are just hysteria?

How is that denigrating real life experiences of rape victims?


"your experience is indicative of a very small percent. The experiences of some of the posters in that thread is not only indicative of the majority that we are in majority (instances of rape occurs in far greater number than instances of false accusation)... is backed up by fact as well as statistics."

OK listen very carefully... I NEVER ONCE CLAIMED OTHERWISE! I never said that false accusations happen MORE than real rape. SO WTF?
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #216
236. you are losing me TLM it seems you are off topic

How does that translate to saying all rape caims are just hysteria?

statements like this have been made repeatedly. They were implied more than once on the 500+ thread. and others like them.

Can we be here now TLM:

you say:
<<<What are you smoking? I kept being told that this law did nothing to change the burdon of proof... I pointed out that it provided a rational for the lack of physical evidence... so how in the fuck does that translate to my claiming my experience was more common than rape?>>>

Where did you get that this law shifts burder of proof? Because I must have missed something. I never got this law shifted burden of proof.

And you know what else, I think a shift of burden of proof is a good thing. It is about. And did you know that in other countries they have actually shifted the burdern of proof onto the accused?

I am not sure you have followed my posts here. It doesn't seem like it but here is the article again. In south africa a year ago they proposed shifting the burden of proof in Rape Law. I tried finding articles which substantiated that in fact this is the case in the states. I am not convinced it is. I believe burden of proof remains in the lap of the state. The accuser is a witness for the state. She is in essence an exhibit. The accused is evidence. as is her testamony and any physical evidence the DA has. BURDEN OF PROOF IT APPEARS REMAINS THE BURDEN OF THE STATE.

As I said in S.Africa last their they proposed shifting the burden to the defense. Here is the article.

snip
But the nightmare of rape victims having to prove in court that they did not say "yes" to the rapist will soon be over if the proposed definition of rape, which excludes the element of consent, is adopted in the Sexual Offences Bill. The bill is expected to be debated in parliament before the end of the year.

snip

Lillian Artz, a criminologist at the University of Cape Town, said the amendment represented a "radical departure" from the old definition of rape.

"The woman will no longer need to prove she did not give her consent," Artz said.

"The accused will have to prove there was sex, but no force was used and she had given her consent.

"There will be some burden on the woman to prove the rapist used force should the defence raise it in court."

The current definition under the common law reads that rape is "intentional, unlawful intercourse with a woman without her consent".

http://www.cab.kabissa.org/raplaw.htm

I found this article in my attempt to find substantive proof that at this time burden of proof has shifted to the accused or the defendant. I found nothing to substantiate. However, at this time, I would vote that a proposal to balance burden of proof in rape prosecution would be another move in the right direction.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #216
240. Then why did you say, "according to this small crew of guys"

because a small crew of guys WERE purporting FEARS based on no knowledge of the FACTS. That is why I said it?

I tried in another thread to substantiate his fear. He couldn't he himself admitted that he had never been falsely accused but yet he also stated more than once he had this fear about it. In his case his fear was baseless. Their were a small percentage of guys in these threads that had no understanding of the legalities as they are carried out in terms of making charges and then prosecuting them. Their fears were based on NOTIONS or FANTASIES in there head.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #216
246. then why did so many people
leave that thread with that impression? Perhaps now that you see - how you were read... perhaps you need to ask .... why? Are you a victim? Then why did various people read the same thing into what you were saying? Perhaps it is mirror time.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #246
260. Salin it seems he is now done talking to me
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 10:20 PM by Wonder

yes more than one person left that thread with that impression the exact impression that NOW YOU HAVE TOO.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #260
270. Sigh
funny how several people - who didn't talk about it at the time - but who were all reading the same thread - came up with the same impression. Personally, I am done with this. Complete and utter waste of time. Cherry picking statements and leaving out all the stuff that left a number of readers with an altogether different impression just does not a whole conversation make.

Ah well. I bid you good night.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #260
401. Yet oddly enough not one of you can point to a single post...
Edited on Fri Aug-08-03 02:14 AM by TLM

where I said that false rape claims outnumber real rape claims...

funny how all 4 of the women who have been attacking me all seemed to get the exact same impressions about what I said... yet not one of them can come up with a single quote or link to show what I said that promted their misunderstanding.


One would think you'd all be able to point to the same post or statement, if indeed what I said caused you misunderstanding. Yet you can not.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-08-03 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #401
413. it doesn't even matter any more TLM

this is not what this thread was about. Your issue and the impressions your posts made do not have to be proven. You left the same impression on several posters here. each in their own way explained why. It is not about whether you said false rape claims outnumber real rape claims. this is about your insistance. In fact I commented on this insistance o presistance in the 500+ thread as well. The posters upon whom you have left a negative impression have more than sufficiently explained why.

that is it. end of that portion of discussion. Perhaps now it might be time to address the actual topic and just let it go. Just a suggestion.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #156
186. there are several examples
and in your cluelessness, you actually posted one of them. see your report of conservativedem's advice...and my response to it.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #186
190. Yes I do believe he did and

he is not aware of it himself even though it seems he DOES HAVE the list of criteria posted by NSMA. TLM himself has posted the list on this thread. So perhaps now the misunderstanding has been cleared up because IT DOES SEEM contrary to what was implied by another FEMALE poster in the other long thread. I WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE picking up on the criteria as listed on that list. Now was I?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #186
214. Please quote where CD said any of this...


"however according to this small crew of guys so so so plagued by their FANTASIES and FEARS...incidence of actual rape are so minimal that instead they feel MACHO enough to denigrate the FACTUAL AND REAL LIFE experiences of the RAPE SURVIVORS here as merely that of HYSTERIA."


You continue to make accusations without any quotes or links or anything.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #214
228. I said that. You pulled that from one of my posts in the 500+ thread

<<"however according to this small crew of guys so so so plagued by their FANTASIES and FEARS...incidence of actual rape are so minimal that instead they feel MACHO enough to denigrate the FACTUAL AND REAL LIFE experiences of the RAPE SURVIVORS here as merely that of HYSTERIA.">>

what are you trying to ascertain? those are my words I already explained them. Why are you asking someone else about words I myself wrote?
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. I saw it, but didn't crack open that thread
But good grief, it's so plain as to be silly. If I offer you my hand to shake and you decide to squeeze, pump, and jerk my arm for 10 minutes, I don't think anyone would argue that I'd be wrong to expect you to knock it off when I tell you to. So where does this notion of entitlement to uninterruptable sex come from? :shrug:
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
66. LOL!
You made me laugh out loud with that visual. ;) It's a good analagy, and precisely the connection that some men and women alike can't, or won't make.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #31
196. I guess that is what THIS thread is attempting to define

and or ascertain: just where this notion of entitlement to uninterruptable sex comes from?

Finally the new law which has made this particular clarification does seem to be PROOF in and of itself that this NOTION is IN FACT more pervasive than is HEALTH for our society.

It could have stemmed also from elements within the legal process itself that have actually supported the NOTION itself.

Based on this new clarification, as well as what also might be a coming shift of burden of proof onto the accused himself, wherein he will be asked to PROOF the claims he is making (OR HIS SIDE OF THE STORY : THAT THERE WAS CONSENT WHEN THERE WASN'T -- OR THAT FORCE DID NOT TAKE PLACE).

I only anticipate this might be so as it seems Rape Laws have changed or proposals have been made for changes such as I describe (and other) in other countries (South Africa and the UK).


Interestingly, in the UK it seems the NOTION you wonder about is directly responsible for actually threatening reforms in date rape laws. that notion as stated in the article being the, "macho 'No does not always mean no' culture that sees only 7 per cent of rape cases end in conviction, with attackers evading justice by arguing that they believed their victim wanted sex, even if she was fighting them off."


I place the articles again:

http://society.guardian.co.uk/crimeandpunishment/story/...

And for a third and LAST TIME an article from South Africa:

snip

But the nightmare of rape victims having to prove in court that they did not say "yes" to the rapist will soon be over if the proposed definition of rape, which excludes the element of consent, is adopted in the Sexual Offences Bill.

snip

Lillian Artz, a criminologist at the University of Cape Town, said the amendment represented a "radical departure" from the old definition of rape.

"The woman will no longer need to prove she did not give her consent," Artz said.

"The accused will have to prove there was sex, but no force was used and she had given her consent.

"There will be some burden on the woman to prove the rapist used force should the defence raise it in court."

The current definition under the common law reads that rape is "intentional, unlawful intercourse with a woman without her consent".

more...
http://www.cab.kabissa.org/raplaw.htm

Whether the latest clarification of the a womans' legal right to withdraw consent will be enforceable or may date rape laws anymore enforceable, whether the law will dissipate, as some suggest; is debateable:

1- the two articles posted to clearly defend a need for clarification of rape laws and perhaps shifts in burdens of proof, and

2- that these clarifications are being proposed, discussed, and instances made, is good news, it

3- proves clearly rape convictions rates are low, and that HOUSTON -- THERE IS A PROBLEM.

I appears legislatures have mind to address it, however pervasive these NOTIONS that seem to be resistant to the needed clarifications are.
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. It's rape.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. No to "no" is rape
If you can't take no for an answer, then you have got problems.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. BTW, for those who question my intentions on starting this thread
it is beginning to get clear for me that by having these conversations (after reading through many responses on this subject), we may actually end up STOPPING some rapes from being perpetrated.

To the (specifically) men who are clear that no means no...my heartfelt thanks.
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. Yes
As someone who would never consent to it
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GOPisEvil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
28. Rape's not a sex crime, it's a force crime, ergo...
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 01:27 PM by GOPisEvil
...if you force another person into a sexual act they tell you they do not want to participate in, you have committed a sexual assault.

As an aside, issues like this are precisely why it is important to discuss boundaries with someone before having sex with them.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Without putting too fine a point on it
I don't know how in the world someone can engage in the aforementioned act without a willing partner. It would not seem pleasant for the grantor or the recipient.

For those reason I find that scenario hard to fathom.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
71. It happens in jails quite frequently.
There was a well publicized case here in California.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Also important
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 01:30 PM by outinforce
It is also important that all the people particpating in a sexual act (and I phrase it that way because there may be more than two people engaged in any given sex act) express themselves whenever they wish to stop whatever is going on.

If, after having had sex, one of the persons tells the other "You did things to me that I did not want to have done", and that is the first time he or she has made that known, then I would suggest that no rape has taken place. If, however, during the time people are having sex, one of the persons says "Stop", or otherwise makes it known that s/he does not wish to continue, and the sex continues, then rape has taken place.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
30. yes.. it is rape
guys need to be on the safe side and back off when a woman says no - even if they think she's not really serious. Some women say no when they're not really sure about doing a certain thing, but go ahead anyway when the guy continues (I can say I have done this myself in my younger, inexperienced days) .. some guys may think that is all part of the game - which is tragic when they aren't believing the real message coming from a woman who wants to draw the line.

Believe what a woman says, if she decides she wants to continue later, then she'll let you know.. Otherwise, respect what she says for her well being and yours.


In no way should a woman or man for that matter, be forced to do anything they don't want to.

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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. There's no way to answer this
Was there violence incvolved--did the guy do it, the woman resisted? Then it's obviously rape. Did she say, no, did he say, aw come on, pretty please, she relented, but didn't really want to? Then what?
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Once s/he says NO
Then further acts are rape.

"No" means "No".

It does not mean "ask me 'pretty please', and I might relent".

"No" means "Stop".

And after you stop, THEN you can talk about it -- you can aks "pretty please -- or whatever else.

But "No" always --always -- means "No".

And "No" always means "Stop. Now."
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
67. I believe I said I agree with this..
and I do. No means no until the person saying no initiated further contact.. such as starting the process or whatever.

my little description did not mean it was ok to continue.. it was telling men to believe it means no when it is said and not 'assume' it was part of a game. I wasn't condoning the continued activity once no was said.

sorry I wasn't clear. (I still might not be but I hope I am)
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Indeed, you did.
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 02:21 PM by outinforce
My response, however, was to joeybee12 (no. 34 in this thread), who seemed to suggest that a rapist ought to have an out if s/he said "pretty please", and the victim relented.

Your position has been clear to me.

It is a position with which I happen to agree.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. phew..
I thought I was not clear.. (it happens the older I get :-)

thanks
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
61. clarification
how is it signaled that "she relented". Did she say "okay?" or just stop struggling. One is rape the other is just an obnoxious lover. Also, why does she have to struggle/resist to indicate it "really means no"?
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
111. third choice
psychologically fucking with someone's mind.
in the this case i would want to know why she said okay.

still i wonder, if someone has to be pressured into having sex, why would you want to?




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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #111
130. I think I tried to capture that with point two
obnoxious lover.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
33. This is SO Easy
Sex must be consentual.

Whenver -- whenever -- consent is withdrawn, sex becomes rape.

See?

Easy.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. This is NOTso easy
When two people are having sex, there is hopefully a lot of discussion involved, and one partner may want to do something the other is not willing to do--at first. You have to know if these people are in a relationship, if there was actual violence, or just an attitutde of "Hell, he won't shut, up, so I'll just get it over with." Is it rape then?
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. I think a man knows
if he is having sex with an unwilling partner.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. Excuse Me
"I think a man knows if he is having sex with an unwilling partne"

I'm not sure if you are suggesting that I am somehow not a man.

But I respect my partners enough to stop when they say "No" or "Stop".

And are you seriously suggesting that a male is able to discern the mind of a woman who says "No" or "Stop" to know if and when she does not really mean "Nop" or "Stop".

I had thought that such paternalism died. A long time ago.

But I confess that I am gay.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. my response was actully to #41
People who are defensive about having sex with someone who said "no" and continued - make me uncomfortable. I think some may not want to admit (to themselves) there was a time they should have stopped.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
81. I must admit

at this point -- I am not sure -- unless one knows the man -- I can with confidence make anymore broad (yes pun intended) -- statements regarding what I think a man knows. I might wish a man knew when his partner becomes unwilling -- but I can not say wishing -- has much to do with reality -- and -- since participating in these sex crime threads as far as men go -- while I thought I had a good sense of things before these threads -- I have to admit -- I now wonder -- what the percentages really are regarding the number of men that ARE IN REALITY -- my hope is that those men IN REALITY are in the majority -- BUT -- at this point -- I am thinking this is only WISHFUL thinking on my part.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. It ABSOLUTELY does not matter
When a person says "No", that means "No".

If two people are having sex, and one partner wants to do something that the other is not willing to do, and the unwilling partner says "No", then the partner who wants to do somethings that the other is not willing to do MUST -- MUST -- stop.

Otherwise, it is rape.

Once the "action" is stopped, BOTH parties can discuss the thing that one wants to do and the other does not. But continuing to do something that your partner has clearly said "No" to, to my way of thinking, shows an extreme lack of respect for your partner. It says, "Let me make the decision for you", or "I won't even honr you enough to respect your wishes and talk about this". No, it merely says, "I gotta do this thing, and I don't really care whether you want to or not -- we're gonna do it!"
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
60. oif, for once, i agree with you completely
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 02:03 PM by noiretblu
there seems to be some confusion on this really simple issue. i agree with gopisevil: rape is a force crime, an act of violence. i think some are intentionally trivilizing this crime as "forced sex," and using some tired cannards about confused women who really mean yes when they say no.
so, to clear up any confusion, if someone tells you "no" and you continue, you are guilty of an act of violence, and your member (and perhaps your size and strength) is the weapon. if there is any doubt as to whether your partner *really* means "no," one sure way to find out is to stop. if she *really* doesn't mean "no"...you shouldn't have a problem continuing.
someone posted a thread yesterday and used the phrase "doing her," to describe his view of consensual sex. as i mentioned to this poster, if you think of sex as an act that you "do" to someone, i can see why the concept of withdrawing consent to be "done" would be a non-sequitur. however, if one can grasp that sex is a mutual experience vs. something you "do" to someone, one should be able to comprehend that consent can be withdrawn at any time, by either (or any) of the participants.
it is really quite simple.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
39. If she say no it's rape
Yes to sex does not mean yes to anything you may want to do.

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
43. First thread where I have seen 100% agreement on
It is rape.

Don

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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
56. look above
there is not 100% agreement. Nearly - but not all.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. BUT it is the most civil
discussion i have seen.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
99. now it is a matter of those fine points
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Devil Dog Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
44. What if, she said no to "going south" (as you put it) last week . . .
but tonight the man (without saying anything) makes an attempt again. This time, the woman says nothing and lies there passivly while the man "goes south."

Is that rape?
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. while I would not think so... I would have to wonder about the
relationship, when the guy tries again something she was adverse to with no discussion.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #44
74. If she is passive due to willingly accepting it then no
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 02:26 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
If she is passive due to the threat of force or other retribution, it may very well still be rape. An abusive relationship or the involvement of drugs is where I am looking when answering this question.

Heck, in any relationship there is a period of time where one partner may want to go no further than 1st base...then second and so forth...so it may be that eventually he/she relents and agrees to home plate AND the dug-out.
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #74
103. passive due to threat of violence is common
i was in an abusive relationship for six yrs, beleive me, the violence began before the rape did. for me, passive was the one way to get through it. you try to be anywhere but there.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
64. It is interesting at times
to click on treads without knowing the author of them. I was ready for this to have been from the Neandrathol club. But to answer your question of course it is.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
75. Of course that's rape.
If a girl says yes to vaginal sex, it mean yes to vaginal sex. If the girl does not consent to anal sex, and a guy does it anyway, of course that's rape. I don't think it's debatable.

Talking about the Kobe case, I have no idea if he's guilty or not, just like everyone else. I've always admired Kobe, not only as a basketball player but as a person. If it turns out that he's guilty, I'm going to be so disillusioned.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
78. yes.
A woman has every right to set limitations on where a penis can penatrate her body. In fact, every human has the right to set limitations on where anything or anyone can penatrate his/her body.

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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
80. Yes it is rape --- perhaps
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 03:20 PM by Wonder

based on undesired change in sexual venue - but - I am still not clear of all the evidence - so I am not sure IF PROVEN - when she is claiming consent was withdrawn.

change in sexual venue constitutes an unexpected surprise. If one sex partner springs an undiscussed change in the sexual menu and the other partner does not have a taste for the suggestion if the change is FORCED

YES A RAPE/SEXUAL BATTERY OCCURRED.

Does this issue really need so much clarification? Based on some of the opinions shared within these sex crime threads - guys are welcome to bring along their mini cassettes - in the meantime I am considering something like brass knuckles or a new purse so that I can include a nice pair of Knuck Chucks (or whatever they are called) THAT IS if I were to trust I am placing myself in the right hands. Based on what I have observed in these sex crime threads --- much more caution is advised!!

sheesh!
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. perhaps
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 03:28 PM by noiretblu
a stun gun under the pillow is advisable :shrug: seriously though...sometimes i am enlightened by views here in ways that i wish i wasn't. it seems only a hard-core few truly don't "get it."
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. yes too few

it is true...at least judging from these sex threads here in DU

a decade ago... this was not that big of a dilemna. Before the rape I guess I was lucking. I tended to always choose very compatible lovers... most always turned into committed relationships 2 years plus... I didn't have to deal with all this fucked up dilemna -- all partners natural responsive...

What I am picking up here... is quite disconcerting to say the least -- some of it so out of my realm... it is not even worth my time to counter it... sign of the times I guess.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
82. Of course it's rape
Silly question IMO. Any unwanted bodily contact is WRONG. Unwanted sexual contact involving penetration is definitely rape.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
84. No is no
if you french kiss, dry hump and then want to fondle and she/he says no, then you cannot fondle
if you have vaginal sex and want to go down south and he/she says no then you cannot go down south
if you are getting oral sex and want to reciprocrate and he/she says no you cannot give oral sex
No is no. Get up put on your clothes and dont mess with people who want to fuck with your mind*



*unless there is some other valid reason.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
85. really I do not know what to make of this

except that in casual land more partners than one considers are clearly way out of sink with one another. From some of the responses it is almost as if just the consent to casual sex -- is equated with you are down for whatever comes up -- which would indicate that in the casual game one should not assume that the sex one will have will always stay within one's prefered sexual boundary.

I would have thought that even in a casual sexual situation that reading ones partner is a given and is really not that hard a thing to do. Then again I am not one for casual sex - I actually enjoy the getting to know you part -- between two people that share an attraction -- before touch -- I mean. It's the anticipation I guess -- sensuality I find sometimes as alluring as sexuality -- if not more so. But I constitute it seems a minority view.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. this is the preferred method of mature people
even those who engage in casual sex, i.e., respecting a partner as a participant vs. an object one has his way with...a thing that is "done." i too find the getting to know you part as interesting and as fulfilling (sometimes moreso)as the act itself. then again, i'm not into casual sex...anymore :D
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #87
112. yes Noiretblu this "doing her" thing is also problematic
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 05:13 PM by Wonder

quite frankly it seems to me those males that are "doing her" are easy to spot, therefore what also frightens me is the women who is laying down with this type male. Again, there are sexual maladies that pervade this topic of force as well as the confusions we see here.

I feel that some of the confusion is sincere and when addressed does seem to get cleared up. What disturbs me is when the confusion persists regardless of how many ways one goes about addressing the male confusion.

And this no means yes business seems indicative of a number of things: 1- it seems a blind spot in the male, behind which he hides what we term his obstanent "male privilege" 2- is indicative of this lust for the game of D/S to which I say fine. saddle up with a partner that is consciously choosing dominance (also termed whore mastering) from the sex menu. Conscious D/S falls into the category of sex scene play. This is an area into which both males and females will wander.

However, when speaking outside of the sex scene culture wherein both partners are actually choosing their scenes because they both know what is expected and therefore have consented to play the D/S or M/S scene as outlined; this male stubborness regarding the no means yes myth is:

1- problematic in that to some degree it is a myth
2- is indicative of what is termed the rape mentality
3- tells me the male actually might prefer sexual ambivalence in a female, that ambivalence being an allure on its own, which means
4- to some degree the male's who are encountering this ambivalence regualarly are type specific...

Noiretblu am I making sense?
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. why yes, indeed you are
and of course, there is a certain type of (afflicted) woman who fits the fantasy...to a tee, if i hear you correctly. of course, i'm not talking about consensual activities, e.g., S/M. on the other hand, i do agree that the myth, when applied to all women, is indicative of some infection with the rapist's mentality, which is a sadististic mentality. you make perfect sense.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #113
126. males who encounter this ambivalence regularly are type specific

let's push the envelop further:

I know for a fact that all women do not play this no yes game... in its most innocent form it is most prevalent in young woman who might well be attracted but still grappling with the all the guilt that is imbred into women regarding their own sexuality and their own desire. In this example the no which requires some persuading is not a game. I mean she is not playing a game. She may very well be youthfully curious, however is hedging because of sexual mores and in that very moment is weighing all the discomfort that goes with this type of ambivalence, and young boys grapple with this in their own way as well.

I feel a male who is older must be sensitive to this and rape will never enter into the picture as long as the girl is of age.

In the more devious scenario where the women is playing a fucked up game (which depending on her own sexual malady she may or may not even be conscious of), this women constitutes a type. Men who find themselves chasing this type women regularly and as regularly find themselves getting biten... this is a whole other thing...

I still have not honed in on, in all instances in terms of this no yes catagory, why those men that seem to persist in their confusion, also do not seem to grasp that if this type women causes confusion... rather than to superimpose her upon all women, why don't they just change their type? This is what I don't understand. Or is this small percentage of males that I allude to: are they just playing a game of their own in these threads?

Because quite frankly their concerns seem to me 1- very selfish 2- irrelevant to the discussion for the most part and 3- are certainly not indicative of ALL women.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #126
154. 1- very selfish is my vote
:D and i do hear what you are saying about "types," and i believe, addiction. it's both self-fulfilling, and self-serving, imho. if the belief exists already, one would tend to attract this type. and if one continues to attract a type, it serves to reinforce the belief. i can see how it easy it would be to extrapolate this to all whatever, depending on the false belief one holds. and to some extent, views about "all whatever" are acceptable as stereotypes, and constantly reinforced. this is true of stereotypes about both genders.

and i absolutely agree with you about ambivalence about sex, as it relates to younger women.

i would add that the notion of sex as a prize, to be conquered or withheld, a meme in and of itself, which tends to get played out in the stereotyping.

and most certainly that all women are ambivalent about sex is a BIG LIE.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-03 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #154
175. that all women are ambivalent about sex is a BIG LIE
Edited on Thu Aug-07-03 06:55 PM by Wonder

A VERY BIG LIE...(which also does not imply they lack discernment). I have encountered males that telegraph much discomfort with sex themselves. In fact uncomfortable with a womans comfort with their own sexuality. I can not say exactly why they are uncomfortable with her comfort of her own sexuality for sure. But in my life it seems this male discomfort has to do with his own sex guilt issues.

now to attracting certain types. I tend to attract both men and women who compete with me rather than support me emotional. In therapy I came to understand why. Of course it goes back to the role one plays growing up as a child. Here is where at one point one must become responsible for their own reality. If a male is always having to deal with ambivalent women either they are pushing sex on a women to early in the relationship so she just isn't read to have sex, or he is exactly attracted to that ambivalence for what could be a number of reasons

1- the conquest thing tends him on
2- he enjoys coaxing a woman regularly
3- if a woman is coaxed too easily it not only turns him off but could in some instances anger him
4- young adult women also understand the males ambivalence with the good girl bad girl thing and therefore make a conscious choice not to give in so easily until she gets a better read on the guys intentions

it is so complex the dating and mating game so complex.
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