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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:02 PM
Original message
NORAD issue addressed!!!!!! (HUGE!)
One of the commissioners, the woman on the commission, asked Rumsfeld about air defense plans and what they were. He confessed that planes are supposed to be sent up to intercept hijacked planes. The inference here is that THEY WERE SENT UP ON 9/11, and that a SHOOTDOWN ORDER WAS ISSUED, BUT THAT THE PILOTS DID NOT RECEIVE SAID ORDER!!!

This is huge! This means somebody either deliberately did not convey that order, there was a huge collosal fuckup (EXTREMELY unlikely given the severity of the circumstances), or A STANDOWN ORDER WAS ISSUED BY SOMEONE.

Rummy just gave the whole thing up, and he knew it. He looked sick, and if I am not mistaken his hands were actually shaking. Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Myers tried to join in to help but was not of much use, and he looked freaked out too! So did Wolfowitz, WHO SAID NOTHING!

The gig is up and they know it.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Any follow-up question? nt
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. The commissioner said...
she mentioned that at today's testimony they are not supposed to address what happened ON THAT ACTUAL DAY, so she stop short of asking him exactly why the pilots did not get the shootdown order. BUT SHE DID SAY "you will be back here to testify when we go into detail on the timeline of the day and we will address this issue again."

THE GIG IS UP! THE GIG IS UP!
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keithyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Why not what happened on the actual day??
This is when Bush was in charge. He is the one running for election, not Clinton. We need to know all about what he did and will do!
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Apparently that is reserved for a different hearing
This one is only supposed to investigate background events leading up to 9/11, but there will be other testimonies as to what actually happened on the day of 9/11. If the commissioners pursue this angle that is when the lid will truly blow off for all to see.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #28
124. Yes, but will it be in public?
I want to see them squirm.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #26
123. Well, he was running that day, too.
Folks: For your writing/phone calling pleasure...


National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
301 7th Street, SW
Room 5125
Washington, DC 20407

Washington Office*
Tel: (202) 331-4060
Fax It is vital to get these criminals under oath.
: (202) 296-5545

email: info@9-11Commission.gov

And don't forget your reps in Congress:

www.senate.gov

http://www.house.gov/writerep /

Or check my sig line for the TOLL FREE number for the Capitol Hill Switchboard.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:26 PM
Original message
The gig is up, the gig is up, if but only all the right questions are
asked and the answers demanded.
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Layman Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
99. The jig is up!
I empathize with your excitment but it's "jig" not "gig". You know, like a fishing bobber when it rises, that's what a jig is and it certainly looks up and there's something on the line. With Clarke due to testify tomorrow Bush and co. look ready to be skinned and filletted.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. They shot down flight 93
they just don't want to say so.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. They were talking specifically about airspace over D.C.
I think you are right, but it is beside the matter here. They were talking about airspace OVER THE PENTAGON, not in Pennsylvania.
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Agreed. n/t
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
34. Why do you think tom ridge got that homeland security appointment?
he was non-existent prior to 9.11..

hasn't done much since either.....

ahem.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
85. I always remember election night 2000
Early in the evening Bush said he was certain he would win Penn. and Florida. Which was odd as both were relatively close races... Tom was in Penn and Jeb in Fl. I wondered once the BBV stuff came out whether there was some election rigging in Penn too.. and Tom was rewarded for helping steal the election.

Pure speculation of course.
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Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
117. Agreed.
I got that distinct impression from the facial expressions and body language of Der Rummy. He looked a bit nauseated.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. what??????????????????????????????????????????????
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. It means just what you think it means
A shootdown issue was ordered, but that order either (a) did not make it to the pilots or (b) was overruled by a standdown order. Either way somebody OBVIOUSLY interfered to make sure those planes were not shot down and reached their destinations! At the very least, this proves LIHOP.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I have never seen that one in any timeline.
Verrrrrrrrrrry interesting.
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LunaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. My thoughts exactly!

I'm from the MIHOP camp and with LIHOP on the table we're just a heartbeat away from MIHOP.....wait until Clarke's testimony tomorrow!

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
89. What are MIHOP and LIHOP?
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. Make It Happen On Purpose, Let It Happen On Purpose
Welcome to DU!!! :)
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
44. I agree that's huge but
how does it prove LIHOP?
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
56. They let it happen
The shootdown orders were issued but someone interfered to make sure they did not reach the pilots (or, alternatively, standdown orders were ordered subsequent to the shootdown order). That means somebody intervened to allow it to happen. Thats LIHOP.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. That explains
the possibilites that would bolster LIHOP, but there are other possibilities including orders were not received by the pilots in time (before the crash); pilots received the orders but planes were still on the ground; pilots did not receive the orders for other legitimate reasons. I don't think we have air tight proof of LIHOP yet. This needs to be fleshed out more.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
87. You state as fact "somebody interfered."
How do you know that? It can't be through the process of elimination (since other possibilities remain) and unless I missed something, there is no evidence that somebody did indeed interfere.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #87
114. I think you should read the posts in this thread one more time.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #114
134. Okay, I did
And I still must ask, where is the evidence that someone interfered?

I'm afraid that I'm seeing once again the familiar trap of conspiracy theorists: if one outlandish explanation is possible, all others are to be dismissed even if they remain viable alternate explanations. Critical thinking goes out the window.
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They_LIHOP Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
109. Um, I'm not sure this is quite as important as you think...
Are you under the impression that 'intercept' is somehow synonymous with 'shootdown'?

Because nothing could be further from the truth.

If not, your explanation of how what Rummie said 'means' what you're saying it means is a little tough for me to follow.

And believe me, I know just about EVERYTHING that's out their concerning 9/11 (hence my handle), yet I still don't see how Rummie's saying that 'planes are supposed to be intercepted' means, well, anything you're saying it means.

Please elaborate?

Thanks!
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #109
121. Welcome to DU!
:hi:
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. Finally!
I hope my TiVo caught it for later viewing.

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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wait a minute!
If he knew that all along, how come he's never said anything before?
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
96. jane
has our corporate whore media EVER asked any of the BIG QUESTIONS ???
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #96
104. Well,
I'm not so sure that one hasn't been asked.

I mean about the flight being shot down in PA.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. there's been a lot of speculation
but I don't remember a reporter ever actually asking about it. Remember, those "press conferences" are phony and the questions are pre-screened.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's LIHOP or MIHOP, one or the other.
You traitorous scumbags.

How could you?

The Wheel of Karma is turning.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Indeed, we can be sure of it now
There is no question left. That was it right there. Why weren't those airplanes shot down? Rumsfeld had no answer for it, and you know that if he did he would have given it. THEY ARE CULPABLE!
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. And they can't use Tenent as a scapegoat for stand down orders
He didn't give them. After the first hit, somebody gave orders to stand down. Somebody in the military chain of command is gonna take the fall now.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. I jsut posted this over in thread 2
"Is he not the Sec of Defence? Isn't it his job to make sure those pilots know exactly what to think? Isn't that what the military is about?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Habibi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. Aaaaaaaand
it went poof. Just like that.

Gorelick hinted at further questioning, though.
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methinks2 Donating Member (894 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. DAmmit
I changed the channel and missed it. POOP!!!
I couldn't help it . . . looking at that man is just too creepy! Makes my skin crawl. :puke:
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. Radio! Listen but don't look.. (Pacifica broadcasting live) nt
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
108. it's on CSPAN II right now
Powell on, Rumsfeld comes up after Cohen

I turned off Rumcrumbum earlier....he's harder to take than Pres. Cheney or his organ grinder monkey

might have to tape him this time....LOVE to see him sweat
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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. Wait till you hear why they couldn't scramble that quickly
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 05:11 PM by Corgigal
which is so much a bunch of lies I can hardly stand it. However you have to understand aviation a bit to understand why it is. When I find the hard copy of Rummys answers I can post it and I can show you why. However Rummy did confess how its routine for planes to scramble for hijacked airlines. Of course Myers mentioned how they changed the protection of our airspace after the end of the cold war. Anyway, this will make all you fliers feels sooooo much better-NOT.

edit:for spelling
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. It doesn't matter: RUMMY ADMITTED THE PLANES WERE INTERCEPTED
At least the one over DC airspace, anyways. He let the cat out of the bag and there is no putting it back in there now. They are done for and you could tell they knew it by looking at their faces. JUSTICE WILL BE SERVED!
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:18 PM
Original message
How exactly was it worded? What was said.
I am finding it hard to believe he would ef up that bad.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
88. He ADMITTED the planes were
intercepted over DC airspace? That was the plane that Barbara Olson was on who is wife of Ted Olson...weird and so "coincidental." :scared:
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
77. 2 words: Payne Stuart
They scrambled jets for Payne Stuart's pipercub BEFORE the damn thing and they couldn't figure out how to do it for a few goddamned 747s?!

That dog won't hunt!

The jig is up? Is it really that easy?!
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. The Secretary of Defense failed to protect our Capitol City
He is an utter miserable failure.

The air defense of Washington DC is not an "option" - it's a requirement.

It's you're JOB #1

You irresponsible incompetent piece of shit.

Fuck You Rummy - you're Fired!
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. No, not incompetence
Culpability.

Someone prevented the shootdown orders from getting to the pilots or overrode those orders once they were received.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. It was Cheney
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts....
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. It was Ted Olson,
He must have called someone after his wife, Barbara Olson, contacted him via cellphone from one of those planes.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. They knew that plane was jacked long before she allegedly
called her husband.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
47. Olson didn't have that authority
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 05:39 PM by jpak
Only Cheney, the Chimp and a few other very high ranking DOD types had that authority.

I remember reading an exchange (somewhere! senior moment ! ack!) from 9/11 where Cheney was in the situation room at the WH.

He was asked if the rules of engagement for shoot down had changed - he growled "I don't remember changing those orders"

Cheney either really fucked up or LIHOP.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. that was in a book, I think? I remember that too.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Was it Suskind's book????
I think so....
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Layman Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
101. Heard of the National Reconnaissance Office?
The Great 9/11 Coincidence
Jon Rappoport
May 13, 2003

On August 22, 2002, the Associated Press ran a story about 9/11. "Agency planned drill for plane crash last Sept. 11."

"...one US intelligence agency was planning an exercise last Sept. 11 <2001> in which an errant aircraft crashed into one of its buildings."

The same morning. As. The 9/11 attacks.

According to the NRO, their exercise was canceled when the real thing began. Barbara Honegger, who worked in the White House under Reagan, points out another coincidence. Researching press reports, she found a 9/16/01 Washington Post story about the pilot of AA flight 77 that, on the morning of 9/11, was said to have crashed into the Pentagon.

The pilot, Charles Burlingame, an ex- F4 Navy flyer, had, as his last Navy mission, helped craft Pentagon response plans in the event of a commercial airliner hitting the Pentagon.

Pilot drafts plan for response to Pentagon hit. Pilot winds up on plane that hits Pentagon.

Honegger states that Dick Cheney was ultimately in charge of the NRO exercise on the morning of 9/11. He was in the White House Situation Room for that purpose.

How do you like all these apples?

The limited hangout on this would be: "The hijackers had found out about the upcoming 9/11 mock exercise. They ran their op on top of that, hoping the confusion between Real and Mock would keep the US government from responding to the actual attacks."

Or, one could take this another step: NRO uses many CIA employees. Some element of the CIA was involved in the tactics of the actual 9/11 attacks. All the above coincidences certainly defy the laws of probability. Since AP eventually ran a story right out in the open about the mock exercise, one would think the Hill would have exploded in outrage. A hearing would have been held pronto. The "bizarre coincidence" would have become front-page news for a week or so.
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #101
139. Exercises: = they COULD (and did) conceive of planes hitting buildings?
What are the details of those exercises? And don't they put the lie to the Bush/Condi claim that they couldn't possibly in their wildest dreams ever, ever, ever have imagined anything other than a conventional hijacking (which they should have dealt with, anyway)?
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
48. That's not proven yet.... but impeachable offenses are.
The White House could have completely frozen at the switch. The WSJ reported Gen. Myers gave the order to put the armed forces on alert more than an hour after the Pentagon was hit.

It's an either/or that's proven. Either the White House froze in the hours of the 9/11 attacks, or they let the attacks through.

Either one is grounds for impeachment.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Okay, not proven like court of law proven
But surely you can admit that it simply defies all logic than in a circumstance such as 9/11, after two planes had already hit the WTC and the Bush Admin. knew what was happening, they would actually fail to give the shootdown order. No way, no how. I'll agree it can't prove it in the court of law, but it proves it in my mind.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. I stick to "court of law" test.
It's a personal preference thing.
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
72. Agreed.
Maybe they LIHOP and maybe they didn't; I'm still not convinced. But the sheer incompetence is staggering enough.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
84. Exactly, Belle--he can't call Kerry "soft on defense" anymore
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 07:59 PM by rocknation
unless he want to be called either a traitor, a conspirator or a just plain incompetent. He can't call Kerry an elitist or a flip-flopper anymore--WE'VE HIT THE TRIFECTA!

:headbang:
rocknation
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. What if...
...no order to shoot down was ever issued? I ask that because I don't think that Bush has the backbone to give that order. That fits his cowardly character to a tee. It might also explain why none of "the boys" gave a real answer. They didn't want to expose the boss for the coward he is.

Just a thought.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. The fact that they were issued was not disputed
Rumsfeld admitted they were. Then when he was asked whether the pilots received it or not Rummy started mumbling and looking scared and said somethingt to the effect of "well I never talked to any of them so I don't know if they did." BULLSHIT! These fucking criminals MURDERED 3000 Americans in cold blood.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. But that's a small matter.
Rummy claiming that they ordered is not borne out by the evidence, right? (The pilots received no such order.) It makes just as much sense, or more sense actually, to assume that the order WASN'T given and Rummy lied about it to cover the boss, IMO. If Rummy admitted that no order was give, then he would have to explain why. I doubt that he wants the world to know that the Boss was curled up in a fetal ball in the back of AF1, getting an IV of courage. ;)
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. I think you are missing the point here
Rummy is UNDER OATH, so to lie is to open himself up to perjury charges. Would he do that for the President? I don't think so. Besides, it just defies reason that shootdown orders would not be issued, especially since IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE PRESIDENT THAT OKAYS IT.

The issue here is that shootdown orders were issued (according to Rummy) yet did not reach the pilots (since they didn't shoot the planes down). SOMEONE interfered to make sure those orders did not reach the people that were in a position to act on them. That is LIHOP right there.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #54
122. Since when does being "under oath" matter to Rummy?
He'll lie to cover ass, whether 9-11 was incompetence, LIHOP or MIHOP.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #122
133. I suspect the word "Pardon" will be in Rummy's future.
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
110. ahahahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!
more like an eightball of valium/compazine

thanks for the huge laugh in the midst of learning about this sordid agglomeration of thieves, liars, and traitors which infest our nation's corridors of power, ALL because we have a media that's SO far in bed with them that, what....can't even think of a proper analogy
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. They asked "did the pilots know"; Rummy said "I don't know their thoughts"
"I don't know their thoughts" is right up there with "how do you define 'is'" (no offense ;) ).

An truthful non-answer to a non-question..I don't know anyone's thoughts but my own.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #41
126. They do this all the time
Everything they say has enough nuance that they can't technically be caught in a lie.

They are master liars. They must have lawyers vetting every single word that they say.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
43. WSJ reported Myers put armed forces on alert after Pentagon hit
The Wall Street Journal said Monday that Gen. Myers gave the order to increase DEFCON alert status over an hour after the Pentagon was struck.

There you have it. No defense plan for DC. No domestic defense plan for US whatsoever. No order to go on alert till long after the 9/11 stikes had already happened.

The White House either completely paniced and froze under fire or literally let the attack happen. It has to be one or the other, and either one is absolute grounds for impeachment. You choose. Gross Negligence, Gross Incompetence, or Criminal Indifference to the murder of thousands of citizens.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
61. But we are an inch away from culpability
Will the commission pursue it that far? I don't know. I suspect not because it will complete shake everyone's confidence in the government period, not just the Bush Administration. But I can guaran-fucking-tee you that if the commission were to pursue it they could prove culpability.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #61
127. We have a campaign
We have a candidate who's had career intel people flock to his side because of the evil stench emanating from the WH. They are defectors. We're going to hear a lot from them. Clarke, Wilson, Rand Beers. These guys aren't kidding around.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
51. Cheney gave the order to shoot down the plane over PA
Which is illegal and a big part of what they are covering up- only the Pres. has the authority to order a plane shot down. That's why they made such a big deal about the photo of the Coward supposedly giving the order to shoot it down.

Cheney probably gave the order to stand down and NOT shoot down the other planes, or at LEAST the one that hit the Pentagon.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
22. Would the fact that Barbara Olson was on one of those planes have caused
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 05:19 PM by The Backlash Cometh
them to hesitate? Remember, she spoke to Ted Olson, the U.S. Attorney General via cell phone.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. I never believed that tel con took place.
Something about it just STUNK.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:26 PM
Original message
ditto
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
71. of course it didn't
way too many problems with that call.

I can't believe that bastard would use his own wife's death for political gain, but, well, yes I can. Knowing these evil people.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Something is up with the Babs angle.
I think the idea that it made the Bushies hasitate is interesting but I have never really believed that call was made and am not yet convinced she was actually on the plane. The whole thing is just to scripted to be true.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #73
116. Oh, I believe she was on the plane
Too difficult to completely hide a person of her fame. She was on the plane, she died, along with everyone else.

But the phone call, just like most of the other phone calls (Todd Beamer, etc.), are crap. Made up fairy tales designed to entertain the masses.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #116
136. That would have been a hillacious lie...
...even more so than the Private Lynch story. I think Ted Olson was involved with corroborating the Barbara Olson call, wasn't he?
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #136
143. Ted started the lie about the phone call, actually
But who's to say it was actually Barbara on the other end of the line?

Who's to say he's even telling the truth? Jesus, the first thing he did was call a reporter and tell them what happened. Is that your first response when your wife calls from a hijacked plane that just crashed into the Pentagon? You call a reporter?

That whole story stinks to high heaven.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. My question is, who did Ted Olson call in addition to the reporter?
The "why" is easier to assess. He must have guessed what his wife's fate would be once the first plane hit the WTC. And he must have known what the standing military orders were in cases like this. So, he would have wanted to let the powers that be know that Barbara was on one of those planes. How does he do that? The quickest way would be to get the information on the airways. A t.v. reporter would have been the best option. The next would be to try to reach Cheney or Bush, which couldn't have been an easy thing to do because of heavy traffic on the phone lines.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #144
145. I don't know who else
But I think the Solicitor General of the US probably has a fairly direct line to the top two guys, don't you?

Calling a reporter strikes me as wanting to "get the story out" as quickly as possibly. It just seems suspicious. I can't quite put my finger on why, it just is.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
97. yes
that was all a big f***ing lie
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
70. Olson's the Solicitor General, not the AG nt
.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #70
98. Whoops! right. How quickly we forget.
*
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
27. The WSJ yesterday in a long, page one article addressed some of this
The beginning of the story was posted yesterday
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

But this was there, too:

The Air Force has disclosed that on Sept. 11, no fighters that were armed and on alert were stationed closer than 130 miles to either New York or Washington. At Otis Air Force Base in Massachusetts, two F-15 fighters scrambled upon receiving word of a hijacking -- at almost the same moment that the first jet hit the World Trade Center. Their distance from New York meant the fighters had almost no chance to intercept the second jet that hit the Trade Center 16 minutes later, according to Brig. Gen. Donald Quenneville of the Massachusetts Air National Guard.

Officials with the North American Aerospace Defense Command (Norad), the joint U.S.-Canadian force responsible for protecting continental air space, said in interviews that fighter basing on Sept. 11 reflected Cold War-era fear of attacks from overseas, not from hijacked domestic airliners. Since Sept. 11, the Pentagon has said it has moved additional fighters closer to Washington, New York and other major cities to protect against domestically launched terrorist attacks.

Norad fighters stationed at Langley Air Force Base near Hampton, Va., conceivably might have reached the Washington area in time to shoot down the hijacked plane that hit the Pentagon, Capt. Craig Borgstrom, one of the pilots who scrambled from Langley, said in an interview. But the three fighters in Virginia remained on the ground for a full 50 minutes after Norad had learned from the FAA that passenger jets had been hijacked, and 27 minutes after the second World Trade Center tower had been hit, according to Norad. The independent panel, formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, has said it is investigating the cause of that delay.

(snip)

Once they got in the air, the Langley fighters observed peacetime noise restrictions requiring that they fly more slowly than supersonic speed and take off over water, pointed away from Washington, according to testimony before the commission. (Gen. Quenneville of the Massachusetts Air National Guard said the fighters from Otis Air Force Base ignored peacetime rules because the lead pilot concluded they faced an extraordinary situation.)

At public hearings last May, members of the Sept. 11 commission from both political parties raised questions about whether a faster response by the Langley fighters could have put them in range to stop American Airlines Flight 77 before it plowed into the Pentagon, and at least prevent the deaths of 125 people on the ground. Norad has said that commanders now have broader authority to suspend peacetime restrictions under certain emergency conditions.

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Corgigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. two F-15 fighters scrambled upon receiving word of a hijacking
-- at almost the same moment that the first jet hit the World Trade Center


OH NO my friend, they knew (controllers and NORAD) probably 30 mins earlier. The minute the transponder was turned off.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
64. Exactly
Yet none of the planes were shot down, except for (I believe) the one over Pennsylvania. Why? Did it take them more than a fucking hour to get their shit together, even though the planes had to have scrambled LONG AGO? I don't think so. Clearly a standdown order was given by somebody. I really hope the commission pursues this.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #27
113. Those must have been the fighters my father heard (n/t)
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
30. I think you maybe misheard
The way I heard it it was the planes that were scrambled after the fact, after the pentagon was hit the fighters were in the air over DC, the shootdown order for planes over DC only was issued, the pilots had to clear with a 2 star before shooting.

Of course, by then it was too late.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. Nope.
Is there a transcript anywhere of the hearings? Because I know what I heard, and it was that the planes had a chance to shootdown one of the airliners and did not.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Which one.
73?
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #40
129. Transcript
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. If so
It begs the question- WHY were planes scrambled in DC nearly an HOUR after the 2nd Trade Tower was hit?
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Kira Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
63. That's how Clarke
describes it in his book. After the towers were hit. He said planes weren't ready like in the cold war and some were doing a drill.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. I don't buy it
You find a pilot and you stick him in a fucking fighter jet. If it takes you ten minutes (max) that would still have meant that at least the jetliner that hit the Pentagon should have been intercepted and shot down.
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Kira Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. I agree with you
but I also feel that Clarke is very credible and it made me feel very confused on the subject because I always believed that they deliberately did not send them up. Could something have been going on behind Clarke's back, possibly. I don't think he is lying though.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #65
80. You are correct
But the problem was that there were no jets able to intercept in time, they stalled the interception and issued the shoot down order for planes in DC air space after it was too late. There weren't fighters there ready to do something with no shoot orders, they just weren't there.

I am not sure why she was pressing on the question other than to highlight that the order was issued too late, to get the time line straight or maybe to verify info she had gotten from other sources or in closed sessions.
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Rufus T. Firefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
32. At least there's a bright side for Bush*
He can't be accountable for this issue because he was in the schoolroom having the kids help him with the big words in that book.

A commercial of that footage with a timer going would be wonderful; hope MoveOn is working on that.
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
52. That commercial has been made.
Posted yesterday on DU, sorry I cannot find the link. It's split-screen with Bush in the classroom on the left, and horrendous footage of the WTC on the right, with a timeline and clock with moving hands.

It is absolutely devastating. Longer than a typical commercial. In fact several DUers thought is was too much and shouldn't be used, becasue of the hideous nature of some of the footage.

I hope someone can get back to this link. I've searched on everything I can think of.
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neverborn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #52
103. Here you are.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
105. A commercial with a timer like this, Rufus?
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
33. Wolfowitz's Voice was really shaking. They look now like condemned men
waitring for the gallows.

Very pale and resigned.

They KNOW they fucked it up bigtime and Rummy, who is a miserabley whining preppy nazi, looked stupid as hell.

They KNOW they were supposed to keep this secret and he fumbled saying he had not talked to the pilots and had nNO IDEA whether they knew they had the authority to shoot down the hijacked missiles.
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Rufus T. Firefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Please tell me someone will put this video online...
...so I can enjoy it later.
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teach1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
59. Is this the video?
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
76. You Can Probably Find It Here !!!
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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. this is actually nothing
i watched this and i'm heavily into 9/11 research and am veryc lose to MIHOP, but i don't think rumsfeld said anything that special here.

maybe i'm off though.

he said planes were up over DC and they had the shoot-down order -- but at that point all four planes had crashed.

so there wasn't actually hijacked planes to shoot down.

(i believe 93 was shot down by the way ...)

rumsfeld did mention several international flights that hit the hijack button.

i know of one that evening, korean air, but several was news to me.

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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. That's the way I heard it too
Hell, he said shrubbie gave the order to cheney to pass along and shrubs was still in the damned classroom reading goat stories until it was too late.
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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
67. Then why nitpick over whether the pilots received the orders?
That was the question Rummy couldn't answer.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. Yes it is still open.
And the fact we are not getting attempts to clarify by the panel is scary.
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jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
57. Wolfowitz says he had no prior notice about Clarke's book
until a reporter called this past weekend and read a section in which Wolfowitz is quoted by Clarke.

Wolfowitz said he tried to get the book on Sunday but couldn't...

Clarke's book publication was held back for 3 months while White House lawyers checked it for classified info.

I can't believe the most corrupt crowd ever to inhabit the White House didn't have access to that book during the 3 month period.

They won't admit it of course, but who else thinks they combed through every syllable?

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worldgonekrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
66. I agree completely
They let the cat out of the bag. The only thing they can do now is hope and pray that the commission won't act on it because they don't want the American public to really know what happened.
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
74. GOOD.
He fucking ought to tremble.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
49. Sorry, wgk, but I can't believe the jig is up until the Busheviks have
been thrown out or "voted out" (if they lose by 1%, that means they got clobbered by 10%).

If we've learned one thing from watching tyrants, it is that they operate ALWAYS on the, "Yeah, what are YOU gonna do to stop me."

And that the appearence of them being stopped lulls the opposition, allowing them to get away with it again...

We cannot rest UNTIL THEY ARE STOPPED. And we can NOT afford wishful thinking like that right now.

Just my opinion...
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
62. I think you need to use "Fatal Attraction" rule here
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 06:00 PM by mouse7
I'm not gonna believe the Bushes are not going to pop back up to torment us again until the bubbles stop rising to the surface of the tub.

(on edit) ...and if the music suddenly gets real quiet, RUN!
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EdGy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #62
86. exactly!
Remember, they all were thrown out in 1992, and here they are back in power, pursuing the same idiotic policies...
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
78. DON'T FORGET: Newsweek reported Pentegon Officials changed flights
Newsweek magazine reported on September 24, 2001, that senior US military officials had, on September 10, cancelled their flight schedules for September 11. The reasons advanced were "security concerns".

Go ahead! Read the back issue at your library. It's there in black & white.

THEY KNEW!!!


:kick: :kick: :kick:
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #78
125. Here is a link Newsweek article you are referring to...
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joesixpack1960 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
79. Do the commissioners know about this?

rumsfeld had to give the order. How much proof is needed?

There is a set of procedures for responding to hijackings. In particular, these procedures were changed on June 1, 2001 while Rumsfeld was in power as Secretary of Defense, in a document called: "CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF INSTRUCTION, J-3 CJCSI 3610.01A"

www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.pdf

1) Determine whether or not the assistance needed is reasonably available from police or commercial sources. If not, the DDO, NMCC, will notify the appropriate unified command or NORAD to determine if suitable assets are available and will forward the request to the Secretary of Defense for approval in accordance with DODD 3025.15, paragraph D.7 (reference d)."
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puerco-bellies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
81. Payne Stewards plane was intercepted in 26 minutes..
The N.E. section of the U.S., especially around Washington D.C. is among the most heaviest defended airspace in the world. Way down south a little more then a year before 9-11 a single small plane wondered off course and was literally surrounded by military fighter jets in 26 minutes of ground control losing contact with that flight.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/oct...

Four simultaneous hijackings, an unprecedented event in world history, would be noted at all levels of the air defense command and control structure, and they (The * scum team) claim there was no time to intercept any of the four doomed aircraft. Bullshit!



LIHOP. There is no other plausible answer.
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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #81
91. It was longer than that
One hour, 26 minutes. They went from the eastern time zone into the central time zone so the times, often reported as 26 minutes, was actually one hour and 26 minutes.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
82. Rummy's hands were shaking? Compared to what?
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
83. The World, America and both parties...
...have known this for three years. What does it tell you that they didn't even discuss it until they HAD to?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
90. OK, Here's the video link...
Requires RealPlayer...

Cut and Paste in your browser. Segment 4 of 4, Time mark 3:45

rtsp://video.c-span.org/jdrive/smil/ter032304_cmsn.smi

Otherwise, go to http://www.c-span.org / and look for:

Sept. 11 Commission Hearing - Day 1 (03/23/2004)
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
93. I saw that
I was flipping channels and decided to watch a bit to see if I could confirm what I had heard on the DU - that it is a whitewash. Yes, they rattled; rattled indeed. I was very excited because I thought, HERE WE GO, ONE OF THOSE HUGE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS. Rummy & Co. were absolutely PATHETIC.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
94. What is NORAD SOP, and how did this deviate from it?
I'm trying to figure out why this is a big deal.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
95. DUPE
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 08:36 PM by kiahzero
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
100. Isn't it possible...
that they'll just say, by way of making an excuse for this, that they didn't shoot down the jet because they didn't want a big commercial aircraft crashing in some random spot in metro D.C. after they shot it down? I'm not definding them, but it seems like a somewhat plausible explanation, at first look. Devil's advocate--prove me wrong, please.
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
102. Huge Collossal
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 09:50 PM by RobinA
fuck up "extremely unlikely"???? On what planet? I guarantee you on 9/11 morning nobody knew WHAT the hell they were doing. THAT'S the big secret nobody wants to get out. All the technology, all the supposed know-how...fuggedabowdit. When the shit comes down like that, nobody knows nothing. Buncha guys looking at radars or screaming into phones going WTF?
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
107. Rummy confirmed, but this was in earlier testimony at 911
I didn't get a chance to see the earlier hearings, but I did read the transcript. I remember reading and gasping........! It's a VERY LONG thing to read, and I sat her one night and was glued to my screen. All the things I thought about NORAD all these years was FALSE!

All Rummy's testimony did today was confirm the proir testimony to the commission.

I hope this will be in their final report!

Of course, who is going to take the hit????? I don't know, but I think I can tell you, it's not going to be Bush, Rummy, Wolfy, Perle, Cheny or Rice.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
111. Important: Mineta's testimony about Cheney's order. It MUST have been
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 10:38 PM by Minstrel Boy
stand down.

Read this, and tell me otherwise:

Mineta: There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out.The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?"

And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And.

Hamilton: The flight you're referring to is the.

Mineta: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing2/9-11Comm...

Note how Hamilton steers Mineta away from the topic. He doesn't even ask what the orders were.

What were the orders? The orders could not have been to shoot down, because Cheney did not have the conversation with Bush in which he recommended a shoot down until nearly 20 minutes after the Pentagon was struck. And Mineta's testimony describes events before the crash of Flight 77.

From the timeline:

After 9:56: After flying off in Air Force One, Bush talks to Vice President Cheney on the phone. Cheney recommends that Bush authorize the military to shoot down any plane under control of the hijackers. "I said, 'You bet'" Bush later recalls. "We had a little discussion, but not much."

The order to shoot down the planes came AFTER the Pentagon was struck.

Now, logically, just because we can rule out a shoot down order doesn't give us conclusive proof that "Do the orders still stand?" "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" must refer to a stand down, but it does make the exchange that much more suspicious. And what else, in the context, could be the explanation?

The meaning of "the orders" is understood between Cheney and the aide. The orders remain unnamed in front of Mineta. "The Orders" is clear enough for them to avoid confusion. And since confirmation was requested, it's likely they were outside Standard Operating Procedure.

The aide, who's been counting down the approach, is compelled to confirm the order with Cheney as the plane is almost upon the target, suggesting the order was extraordinary. Since nothing was done to impede the aircraft, Bush did not authorize shoot down until 20 minutes later, and Cheney said, heatedly, that the order stood, I'm inclined to think the order was to do nothing. This interpretation is, I think, supported by the aide's second guessing Cheney.

Here's an earlier thread in which this was discussed:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Logical conclusion
the orders were to NOT shoot.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #111
132. It's worth reading the enture segment of the transcript.....
MR. HAMILTON: We thank you for that. I wanted to focus just a moment on the Presidential Emergency Operating Center. You were there for a good part of the day. I think you were there with the vice president. And when you had that order given, I think it was by the president, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists, were you there when that order was given?

MR. MINETA: No, I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?" Well, at the time I didn't know what all that meant. And --

MR. HAMILTON: The flight you're referring to is the --

MR. MINETA: The flight that came into the Pentagon.

MR. HAMILTON: The Pentagon, yeah.

MR. MINETA: And so I was not aware that that discussion had already taken place. But in listening to the conversation between the young man and the vice president, then at the time I didn't really recognize the significance of that.

And then later I heard of the fact that the airplanes had been scrambled from Langley to come up to DC, but those planes were still about 10 minutes away. And so then, at the time we heard about the airplane that went into Pennsylvania, then I thought, "Oh, my God, did we shoot it down?" And then we had to, with the vice president, go through the Pentagon to check that out.

MR. HAMILTON: Let me see if I understand. The plane that was headed toward the Pentagon and was some miles away, there was an order to shoot that plane down.

MR. MINETA: Well, I don't know that specifically, but I do know that the airplanes were scrambled from Langley or from Norfolk, the Norfolk area. But I did not know about the orders specifically other than listening to that other conversation.

MR. HAMILTON: But there very clearly was an order to shoot commercial aircraft down.

MR. MINETA: Subsequently I found that out.

MR. HAMILTON: With respect to Flight 93, what type of information were you and the vice president receiving about that flight?

MR. MINETA: The only information we had at that point was when it crashed.

MR. HAMILTON: I see. You didn't know beforehand about that airplane.

MR. MINETA: I did not.

MR. HAMILTON: And so there was no specific order there to shoot that plane down.

MR. MINETA: No, sir.

MR. HAMILTON: But there were military planes in the air in position to shoot down commercial aircraft.

MR. MINETA: That's right. The planes had been scrambled, I believe, from Otis at that point.

MR. HAMILTON: Could you help me understand a little the division of responsibility between the FAA and NORAD on that morning?

MR. MINETA: Well, FAA is in touch with NORAD. And when the first flight from Boston had gone out of communications with the air traffic controllers, the air traffic controller then notified, I believe, Otis Air Force Base about the air traffic controller not being able to raise that American Airlines flight.

**********

After reading this what struck me is that Mineta thinks there was an order to shoot down live before the Pentagon was struck....

That said everything is very messy and unclear. What exactly he means is a bit of a mystery.

I hate to say it but this leads me to feeling a little concerned. There should be professional investigators and lawyers running these question lines at this stage. Witnesses must be pinned down and made to answer the question.

Instead we have conversations between politicians. Each patting the other on the back.

To a large extent this is down to the way the National COmmission's Exec. Dir. - i.e. Condi's good mate - is organising the secretariate.

This inquiry is not being run to find the truth. It is being run to create such huge amounts of smoke that the truth becomes almost impossible to discern in the haze.

And that sucks.

Still.... it is getting better.
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
115. No one really takes much notice
that congress has NOT been evacuated until after the Pentagon attack.

I was watching C-Span when congress did get evacuated and they were freakin out. Left like sitting ducks. Complaining as they were running out of the building......

Anthrax shut that up.

Guess who would pick the rep. of congress if it was a major catastrophe?


So who did or didn't get a shoot down order, remained in the VP hands while the flight in PA was headed toward DC and Cheney knows congress has not been evacuated. The plot thickens.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #115
138. The thought boggles the mind
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 09:47 AM by FlaGranny
what they could have done if congress had been wiped out.

It would be interesting to see who was NOT there that morning.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
118. nevermind
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 01:06 AM by FDRrocks
DELETE, IGNORE
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
119. Lihop!
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 01:01 AM by FDRrocks
At first I didn't consider the alternative views on 9/11. I usually don't read partisan books like Frankens latest, but I picked it up for cheap off a friend. The section where he explained how Clinton left the Bush Junta one of his most seasoned terrorism experts changed my mind. They completely ignored him. They let it happen.... on purpose... like anyone that lets anything happen (LIH?).

They are stepping the tracks of nationalism that the Nazi Party set with the burning of the reichstag. I think it is clear that they needed this to fit thier own personal agenda. Bushs bullshit wasn't working before, now everyone has a distraction, and small shit like Bush loosening already loose environmental standards, etc....

Fuck Bush. Fuck the two party system, really, but fuck Bush
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
120. Grossly incompetent or horribly evil
the age old question with this crowd.
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MetaTrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
128. Transcript of Rumsfeld testimony not up yet
Has the word been put out?
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
130. this is on C-SPAN now
For the night-owls. Cohen on now. Rummy up next.
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
131. Just listened to the relevant bit... Jamie Gorelick nearly nails it...
But sort of misses the mark nevertheless.

She will be on the Washington Journal tomorrow morning so that will be interesting.

At least she is asking some of the right questions.

al

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MetaTrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
135. Relevant portion of transcript
RUMSFELD: When I arrived in the command center, one of the first things I heard, and I was with you, was that the order had been given and that the pilots -- correction, not the pilots necessarily, but the command had been given the instructions that their pilots could, in fact, use their weapons to shoot down a commercial airliners filled with our people in the event that the aircraft appeared to be behaving in a threatening way and an unresponsive way.

GORELICK: Now, you make a distinction there between the command and the pilots. Was it your understanding that the pilots had received that order?

RUMSFELD: I'm trying to get in time because...

MYERS: Well, I think -- my understanding, I've talked to General Eberhart, commander now of NORAD, and I think he's briefed the staff. And I think what he told the staff, what he told me, as I recall, was that the pilots did -- at the appropriate point when the authority to engage civilian airliners was given, that the pilots knew that fairly quickly. I mean, it went down through the chain of command.

RUMSFELD: It was on a threat conference call that it was given, and everybody heard it simultaneously. The question then would be -- the reason I am hesitant is because we went through two or three iterations of the rules of engagement. And in the end, we ended up delegating that authority to, at the lowest level, I believe, to two stars.

MYERS: Right.

RUMSFELD: And the pilot would then describe the situation to that level. To the extent that level had time, they would come up to General Eberhart. To the extent Eberhart had time, he would come up to me. And to the extent I had time, I might talk to the president, which in fact, I did do on several occasions during the remainder of the day with respect to international flights heading to this country that were squawking "hijack."

GORELICK: I'm just trying to understand whether it is your understanding that the NORAD pilots themselves, who were circling over Washington, as you referred to in your statement, whether they knew that they had authority to shoot down a plane. And if you don't know, it's fine to say that. You mentioned them in your statement, and I would like to know if you know the answer.

RUMSFELD: I do not know what they thought. In fact, I haven't talked to any of the pilots that were up there. I certainly was immediately concerned that we did know what they thought they could do.

------------

Whatever happened to military debriefings?
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Aries Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #135
137. Gorelick mentioned another hearing on the "events of the day"
where these questions will be covered.

This was the first I had heard about a hearing devoted specifically to the day's events, in other words, the timeline. It made me feel better about why no one has yet asked, for example, who gave the order to let the Saudi royals and the Bin Ladens fly out of the country when no one else could fly.

THAT will be a very interesting hearing.
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Tracer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
140. Will the pilots themselves be asked to testify?
eom
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
141. Thanks for pointing this out
I could not bear to watch, as soon as heard the rummy name come up I had to :puke:

So many consistencies by that man on so many different levels, I take it that this hearing is under oath.

Criminal court with cross examination is what is needed here, hopefully later :kick:

There are so many liars building on other liars lies in this administration that it would be a perplexing question just who the first person would be to put on the stand and start to unravel all the lies that have been perpetuated.

Al Franken's book was so much of an understatement :D
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deportivoI Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
142. Wow, Didnt Maneta
Testify that the Airforce was ordered to Stand Down?
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