"True Love Waits" for gay youth?

[skjpm]

I realize that there is no hope this won't get flamed, but please hear me out. I think that gay marriage is a great thing, and maybe one of the best social movements in the country. I think that we could make a better case for gay marriage if we and gay community stood up for a "True Love Waits" type program for gay youth. We could show how sex is best expressed in lifelong, monogamous relationships and counsel gay youth to wait until marriage for sex. By including this kind of program in the whole gay marriage movement, we could show those who doubt about how serious we are about making marriage the model for genuine sexual expression. I know that this is what we are striving for in the Episcopal Church. Our rites of same-sex blessing celebrate lifelong monogamy, so why not start by giving our youth this model?

[daveskilt]

1. it would certainly confuse the hell out of the fundies

they arent good with people saying things they both agree and disagree with. Everyone has to fit a moral absolute of good or bad in their worldview.

watch the little heads explode ala scanners.

[corporatewhore]

2. ahem no we should fight the sexually repressed bs for straight bi and gay

kids

[Deja Q]

3. Let's start by ending discrimination first...

I love your proposal but what does it do to eliminate the core problem?

Many gay youth act recklessly because of the need to feel good and because of the presecution and hatred. In other words, they don't care if they live or die.

[corporatewhore]

5. or they can just be regular teens with hormones and my straight friendss

actually have more

[sweetheart]

4. Monogamy? HA! Hot tubs and steam baths for everyone

I realize the AID's thing is popular with high school students, but
for mature adults who understand the basis of mature relationship.

Honest Question: You encounter tomorrow, entirely by suprise an
attractive young (20) person of the opposite sex who is obviously
aroused. You have the opportunity to "SHAG" this person's brains
out for the next 12 hours with nobody knowing.

Do you: A. Apologize for being randy and go back to your room. Or...
Go wash up and head back to the bedroom for what you really want, to
fuck your brains out for 10 hours.

Hmmmm... Monogamy is for animals. Human beings evolve and change over time.

[Deja Q]

6. That happened to me once...

The "uncivilized animal" (as you'd call her) chose to remain in her monogamous marriage. :thumbsup: Probably for the best, while I had something of an attraction for her, I'm far more responsive to men... why should she ruin her family just to teach a gay guy what hetero sex is all about?

Besides, until America adopts the concept of "it takes a village" to every extreme (hich may happen after peak oil), there's no way people are going to loosen up.

[countmyvote4real]

7. What's the incentive if the rights aren't equal?

[skjpm]

8. I think the rights would become equal

I think that the gay community who support gay marriage should support abstinence-affirming (not abstinence-demanding) sex education. I think that those in the gay community who waited until they were married to have sex should stand up as models, and those who walked a long, hard road to a lifelong, monogamous relationship should share their stories with young people so that they might avoid the same pitfalls. I think that gay marriage rights would naturally follow if gay married couples were visible models and mentors to youth (both gay and straight).

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. So if Rosa Parks had just sat in the back of the bus and been nice

The civil rights she wanted so badly would have been granted to her out of the benevolence of the racist general population?

Are you serious?

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[OneBlueSky]

9. not sure I agree with this particular sentiment . . .

"We could show how sex is best expressed in lifelong, monogamous relationships and counsel gay youth to wait until marriage for sex."

well, maybe for some people . . . but not for everyone . . . there are all kinds of relationships, and all kinds of sex, and what's right for you isn't necessarily right for everyone . . .

[Djinn]

24. yep

my thoughts exactly.

Personally I have usually enjoyed the sex I've had in a relationship better than the casual variety - but not always and that doesn't mean to say "it's BEST expressed" who says? why?

[scottxyz]

10. I am really so tired of people yacking about who I should sleep with

Find something else to preach about.

The fact is, if "youth" have decent education and career prospects and peace and a clean environment, then they'll shape up and not look for quickie sex.

In fact, ANYONE is this way.

When people feel that there is no future and they're depressed and hopeless, they go for quickie, meaningless sex.

Stop preaching and lecturing about what people should do, and start giving them the tools to do it with.

[Dookus]

12. because it's unnatural and doesn't work

Did you see the report last week that teens involved in "True Love Waits" actually have a HIGHER incidence of sexually transmitted diseases than other teens? It's because they STILL engage in sexual behavior, but don't know enough about, or won't admit to the themselves that they need, protection.

True Love Waits is a crappy idea for straight teens, and just as bad for gay ones.

Humans now become sexually "mature" at about 14 years, often younger. Marriage usually occurs well into the 20's or older. It is simply unrealistic to expect people, at the horniest (or, more hormonal) time of their lives, to go a decade or longer without sex. It's a fairy tale - a few people manage it. Most don't. Let's worry about the vast majority and teach them about safe, responsible sexual activity.

[Andy_Stephenson]

13. I agree...

when I was 15...sex was the number one thing on my mind. I was a horny little devil.

"Let's worry about the vast majority and teach them about safe, responsible sexual activity."

AMEN!

[Karenina]

14. "a few people manage it."

And missed out on the FUN! :evilgrin:

I CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE in these days of a 50% divorce rate, WHAT rhyme or reason there would be to COMMIT YOURSELF TO SPENDING YOUR LIFE with someone you don't "know," ya know, in the biblical sense.

I was a teenie when checking "it" out was "protected" from the specter of death by the pill, antibiotics, information, R vs W... Watching Americans' histionics about sex is quite saddening.

[skjpm]

15. Why are you asking for the right to marry if you don't believe in marriage

The answers here elude me. On one hand, gays (and I) want the right to marry. With that right comes the responsibility of supporting the concept of marriage. Rosa Parks not only participated in civil disobedience, she also worked in the community. Why don't gay people who want the right to marry do the work of helping youth by showing them marriage is a positive option? It seems wierd to want the right to marry and then say marriage and monogamy is unnatural.

[Dookus]

16. Who said marriage and monogamy are unnatural?

I didn't, even though we could start a separate thread on that topic. I said ABSTINENCE prior to marriage is unnatural.

Supporting the concept of marriage has no bearing whatsoever on non-marital sexual relations.

[Karenina]

19. "Assume makes an..."

Errrraaa... Did Liz or Brittany or Newt show a lot of "responsibility in supporting the concept of marriage? Challenging the myth that virgin marriages are ideal or superiour in no way implies" that monogamy is "unnatural." And if I may beg your pardon, I've seen MANY incredibly positive examples of long-term, committed GLBT unions over the years. What REALLY pisses me off the most is when someone gets ill and a partner is shut out. THAT is one of the many real issues when discussing this right.

[gator_in_Ontario]

30. *ding ding*

we have a winner!
Human beings are ready to have sex, long before society is ready for them to marry. In the not so distant past (historically speaking) people got married alot younger. With industrialization came the need for a more educated populace, and early marriage became a detriment to the development of such a society. But humans did not change...we just don't evolve that quickly. This is a huge oversimplification...but the best I can do in one paragraph.

What this has to do with marriage, I don't know. How many heteros have waited till marriage?

[Bridget Burke]

17. Get a clue. Not all hets wait for marriage.

I realize this is a disturbing concept. You shouldn't have to wait for God's blessing to have sex. In fact, going through the ceremony just so you can get laid is rather cheap.

Sex education for all kids should include the possible bad results of sex (physical & emotional) & how to avoid them. Waiting is not a bad idea; especially, avoiding pressure to go "all the way" until you're really ready. But, at some point, most people will become sexually active--& usually before marriage.

Marriage involves vows of monogamy. But they aren't retroactive--when's the last time you went to a wedding celebration that featured the bloody sheet from the virgin bride's first night? And I believe the Episcopalians allow divorce. So, we're really not talking about "lifelong monogamy" here.

[megatherium]

18. Sex without love is an empty, meaningless experience but

as empty meaningless experiences go, it's one of the best -- Woody Allen.

I personally believe the important thing is that people (gay, straight) understand the great reponsibility implicit in sex in an age of HIV and other serious STDs. I do agree that caring, permanent relationships are the best arrangement. This might include polyamorous relationships as well as gay and straight relationships. (A close friend of mine is into polyamory -- he lives in Oregon and decided not to marry one of his two partners until he can marry them both. He claims monogamy is a perversion. I suggested to him that he marry both his partners so he could become the first person to be charged with gay bigamy.)

[skjpm]

20. So, what would you tell gay youth about marriage?

What would be the best steps they could take right now to better ensure ending up in a lifelong, monogamous relationship? If abstinence until marriage doesn't work, what does? And if a lifelong, monogamous relationship is an unrealistic goal to begin with, why are people demanding the right to marry?

[Bridget Burke]

21. Gay youth: Best steps they can take now.....

Safe sex (if they're doing it).

Political activism (don't wait to be handed your rights; fight for them as your forefathers & foremothers did).

Actually, these aren't bad ideas for straight youth, either.

[Karenina]

22. Why do you ASSUME so much?

I have nothing against lifelong monogomous relationships. Hell, I wish it had worked out for me! People need governmental recognition of the unions they choose to PROTECT themselves and their families LEGALLY AND FINANCIALLY. What is so hard to understand about that?

[Djinn]

25. well rounded people

brought up to repsect themselves and others with good social skills are probably more likely to get those long term monogamous relationships - whether they've had sex or not before I don't think has anything to do with it.

[megatherium]

26. I would say, go for it!

Personally (as a gay man myself) I would very much like to be in a monogamous, closed relationship. I would be delighted to be able to solemnize such a relationship in marriage. As far as such a goal being unrealistic, I know a variety of gay folk in monogamous relationships. In fact, I find their love inspiring.

I am reminded of a teaching in the Episcopal church, concerning confession (the sacrament of reconciliation): No one must do it, everyone may do it, some should do it. I think this describes my attitude about marriage.

Perhaps abstinence before marriage will help young gay people establish healthy relationships. I don't know. It is certainly true that a lot of the superficial gay culture (bars or clubs) is hedonistic and unsupportive of monogamous relationships. But I know many gay folk who avoid those situations. Any large town will have a wide variety of gay organizations and activities that are healthy. Bowling leagues, running clubs (I belong to the local Frontrunners), religious groups, country line dancing, etc. This is what I would steer young gay people towards.

[skjpm]

27. Yes, exactly

I'm hoping that the gay marriage issue will make fidelity, monogamy, and maturity a more visible part of both the gay and straight community. And I think that people are better served by meeting people in running clubs than in bars.

[Bill of Rights]

23. I think parents of lesbians

should make arranged marriages for their daughters.

[shimmergal]

28. Need to define "abstinence" and what acts true love is waiting for,

before anyone can discuss this suggestion rationally.

Does sexual fantasizing, or kissing, violate abstinence? (Some fundies believe it does.) Or does abstinence allow everything short of "the act" of procreation (as many teens and adults seem to believe)? Bear in mind if one chooses the second option, it gives gays a free ride that hets don't have.

If your answer to both is "no," then at what point on the scale do you come down? ("You" is anyone discussing this seriously. Maybe you don't want to get so graphic, but vague language can be a killer in this area.)

And don't forget that "true love waits" makes no allowance for those who, for whatever reason, never marry. Not many people are equipped for lifelong celibacy.

Teens waiting till after high school or thereabouts is workable; many already do. To wait for a lifetime is something else.

[ConsAreLiars]

29. No, no. Practice, practice, practice!

(Safely, and with full knowledge of the hazards.)

Once you've got some sense of the difference between lust and love, then make the kind of commitment that marriage implies - whatever the genders and orientations might be.