URGENT PLEA TO DU: Please Create an "Advice To Kerry" Forum ASAP

[ulTRAX]

I see Kerry floundering and in need of better answers to Bush attacks and better ideas to go on the offense. I don't much evidence he's getting either from his campaign strategists. Kerry needs ALL the help he can get.

The reason a separate forum is needed is because too many great ideas discussed here get buried in the GD and Campaign 2004 forums... both which are overused. We need to have a central place where such ideas are discussed... not just to focus our energies... but to make it more likely that we will be listened to....

[Dookus]

1. He's not floundering

geez, everybody get a grip. We have a LOOONG way to go. These daily up and down threads are tiresome.

Kerry is an extremely experienced campaigner - I doubt he needs to come here for advice on how to run his campaign.

[wryter2000]

4. I agree Dookus

Still, it would be great to have a place to bounce ideas around.

[XanaDUer]

7. I know

I cannot believe some of the stuff I read on DU like this.


Also, you could put this request in Ask The Admins...

[ulTRAX]

12. Bush SHOULD be at 25-30%.... why can't Kerry score better hits?

THIS is the crucial time where Bush is trying to use his millions to frame Kerry in the minds of voters. It's what Clinton did to Dole. While I saw some flashes of great attacks and comebacks on Kerry's part over the past month... I don't see him doing all he can. Common... on many levels Bush's record is a disaster. Given his record, why is his popularity so high? He should be at 25-30% popularity... with just the nutcase Right supporting him.

How can Kerry break though the clutter to expose Bush for what he is? Having to waste whatever money he has on defense is bad strategy. Yet where is there much sign of Kerry making devastating hits? In THAT war... all input is useful. I've seen some GREAT ideas discussed here... so good I want to SCREAM at Kerry to listen. But in a day or two those threads are locked and archived. I see the DU as a potential Think Tank that could have an effect on national politics. But the way it's currently configured.... it's too unfocused.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. Oh, please. Poppy was at 45-50% at this point during his campaign...

...against Clinton, and Poppy's record was as dismal as Junior's is now.

If you want to develop a think-tank, might I suggest that you do it with your own website? You'll get to control the content and the way people think, won't you?

[ulTRAX]

30. you suggesting the DU is engaged in controling content and...

Are you suggesting the DU is engaged in controlling content and controlling the way people here think?

I don't know how you would run a site, but I have no desire to do either. All I have been suggesting is there be a different forum mix. The GD forum is on overload... averaging some 280 THREADS a day. The Campaign 2004 forum I believe is at 150 threads a day.

If the point of a forum is to concentrate people around a topic they want to discuss... then there has to be some adjustment of the forum mix... possibly creating sub-topics to draw traffic off the over used forums... and consolidating the underused forums. Right now in GD there's no way to focus members around a topic... there's usually 3-4 duplicate threads up at once... threads are then locked and archived in as little as 2 days. The potential for real synergy between members is lost. It's also not my opinion that there's a problem with the GD forum. Here's an official notice in the Archives: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x129940 that the GD database is too large.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. Yes, I am.

[ulTRAX]

37. OK... just checking.

Sounds like a great topic for a new thread.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. You first.

[ulTRAX]

44. alleged DU thought control is not my topic

Since you seem to have some observations about that topic... then YOU start a new thread. Otherwise please try to focus on the topic of THIS thread which was whether a new forum might be useful.

[tjwash]

26. Come on...

...Kerry is sharp enough to know B* is hanging himself with every mispronounced word, and asinine accusation. Besides, with the leaders of Spain, and Poland, and pretty much everyone else but Saudi Arabia, calling ol' cowboy breath on his crap, I think he knows when NOT to glorify smirk-boy's idiotic statements with a response.

[CatWoman]

2. 1. This thread should be posted in "Ask the Admin" forum

that is, if you are talking to the administrators of this site.

2. This thing has just begun.

[ulTRAX]

14. well aware of the admin forum

But I'd like to think that trying to take full advantage of the DU potential is a no brainer. But before going to the admin forum... I believe there should be some discussion among members first.

[wryter2000]

3. Great idea!

Could we have such a forum? I'd love it.

[nostamj]

5. unnecessary

try this:

http://blog.johnkerry.com/dbunker

there's a forum there too.

[ulTRAX]

32. good point..... or is it?

Are you also suggesting we just give up discussing here ANY Campaign 2004 topic involving Kerry or Bush and post at THEIR sites?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

6. Why do you think Kerry is "floundering",....

...and why do you think he or his staff would have the time to read DU?

Skip the additional forum...it will be a waste of time except for those egotistical enough to believe that Kerry needs their help.

JMHO...no offense intended.

[ulTRAX]

13. because....

Objectively... Bush's record is SO abysmal... that he should be at 25-30% popular support. I see Bush's money being used to frame Kerry in the mind of the voters early in the race as Clinton did to Dole. And I see Kerry wasting his money on defense. He can't win that way. I also see no effort on his part to position himself better on the War... the possible capture/killing of Bin Laden.... an improving economy... etc. I don't see Kerry running an effective campaign. The more input he can get... from as many sources... the better. The DU has greater potential than it imagines.... IF it focused.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

15. Responses...

1) "Bush's record is SO abysmal... that he should be at 25-30% popular support"

***Poppy Bush's record was also abysmal...and he also polled at 45-50% at this point in time.

2) "I see Bush's money being used to frame Kerry in the mind of the voters early in the race as Clinton did to Dole."

***So, how do you think Junior is being framed in the press? Have you noticed any of those stories lately?

3) "And I see Kerry wasting his money on defense. He can't win that way. I also see no effort on his part to position himself better on the War... the possible capture/killing of Bin Laden.... an improving economy... etc."

***Taking the posture of America needing a good defense is never a waste of money, because that will attract quite a few GOP fence-sitters who are tired of what Junior is doing to this country. What position would you have Kerry take on the war? Why give away what may be perceived as a radical line-of-thought by those same GOP fence-sitters? What position should Kerry take on the capture/killing of OBL, and when do you think that will happen, if ever? Kerry has already been blasting away about the outsourcing of jobs and the poor economy...what else do you want him to do?

4) "I don't see Kerry running an effective campaign."

***Interesting. And can you share with us the presidential campaigns that you personally have managed in the past?

5) "The more input he can get... from as many sources... the better."

***Please. Are you seriously suggesting that an experienced politician like Kerry doesn't have information coming from virtually all potential sources? Remember my comment about certain posters being egotistical about their personal impact on political thought in America?

6) "The DU has greater potential than it imagines.... IF it focused."

***"Potential" is certainly the key word, isn't it? But, DU will never be able to approach that level as long as the DU admins insist on banning certain posters for refusing to blindly support Israel at every turn. Those actions tend to alienate posters rather than unite them. JMHO.

[ulTRAX]

25. try to focus

You asked me why I think the Kerry campaign is weak and I answered. I'm not going to then get off on a sideshow just because you don't want to discuss the topic of this thread. But I think you do have to make up you mind about the DU reaching its potential. You wrote:

"***"Potential" is certainly the key word, isn't it? But, DU will never be able to approach that level as long as the DU admins insist on banning certain posters for refusing to blindly support Israel at every turn. Those actions tend to alienate posters rather than unite them. JMHO."

Or is that potential in your opinion ONLY reached depending how discussions of Israel are handled here?

(BTW... I haven't tested those waters yet... but if this is a rabid pro-Israel site... the powers that be certainly won't like to hear my opinions on the topic.)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. Try not to be so condescending and egotistical and maybe,...

...just maybe, we could have a good discussion. If you think my direct responses to your comments are somehow creating a "sideshow", isn't that tantamount to admitting that your original post was also a "sideshow"?

If the DU admin continues to drop posters because they have opinions not linked to "Israel is the greatest thing in the Middle East since sliced bread", they could have a more inclusive organization, one based on actual free speech as opposed to whatever it is they seem to believe.

You are welcome to interpret my remarks any way that you want...as it appears you already have.

[ulTRAX]

41. the main topic is a now a sideshow?

ROTF I'll just let your own words speak for themselves. Then you wonder why I asked you to please focus:

Media_Lies_Daily wrote: "If you think my direct responses to your comments are somehow creating a "sideshow", isn't that tantamount to admitting that your original post was also a "sideshow"?"

[still_one]

8. Due to the press coverage I was feeling the same way, but

after some consideration I realize that the issues are on our side. Kerry will be a tour de force when is back from vacation

We have all the issues on our side, and we MUST set the agenda

1. The war in Iraq
2. The economy
3. Unemployment, outsourcing, H1B visas
4. Supreme Court appointments
5. Environmental protections being destroyed
6. A woman's right to choose
7. Privitization of medicare and social security
8. The deficet, and how our debt is being financed by Asia
9. 40 million people who don't have health insurance
10. How Bush has divided our country, and the entire world against us
11. How our intelligence still has not gotten it act together.
12. The danger of the attorney general wanting to get access to personal medical records, and slowly remove privicy protections on the basis of security.


DO NOT PANIC, GET ANGRY AND FIGHT!!!

[Kahuna]

9. Why? So that the media can troll and say that we are...

panicking???? I don't agree. You can send advice to Kerry through his campaign website.

[ulTRAX]

16. So the alternative is.... what?

Let the potential of the DU be wasted?

BTW... I NEVER suggested Dems were panicking. Bush's record is so abysmal that Kerry SHOULD have an excellent chance at defeating him. However this IS playing hardball. There's no place for mistakes. There's no place for playing defense. There's no place for not making every attack as devastating as possible. In this game there's no place for letting ANY good idea get away. That's where I see the DU's potential.

As for media trolling.... what the Rush's and Drudges are looking for examples of DU nutcases. There may be some advantage in them, and Bush, knowing that 40,000 minds can more fully mull over the battle map better than Kerry's campaign staff. It might provide some deterrent affect if Bush is planning an attack... and we already came up with a devastating response weeks before.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. Incredible.

[ulTRAX]

36. I'll take that as a compliment....

At least until further clarified.... ;-)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Clarification: That would be a major misunderstanding on your part.

[ulTRAX]

42. In lieu of any content...

I guess I am free to take your non-comments anyway I want.

[eaprez]

10. Listened to by whom?

I doubt the Kerry Campaign gets its ideas here.

[ulTRAX]

17. we have to make the DU indispensable

As I suggested in another thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1251971

we have to make the DU indispensable. That starts by thinking big.

[Andy_Stephenson]

23. He sure didn't listen to us re...

his war vote...why would he start now?

[ulTRAX]

34. this is now

Kerry's war vote was 18 months ago.

[pinetreefloat]

11. Yeah lets make him a time machine

So he can go back and change his filthy war vote!!!!!!

WE TOLD YOU SO!!!!!!!!

[ulTRAX]

18. ya

I'll certainly be holding my nose when I vote for Kerry.

[Old and In the Way]

21. Whose we?

You and Ed Gillespie?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. So, are you going to vote for Junior?

[Old and In the Way]

24. Floundering? Hardly.

I think it's great that Kerry pace himself now. I'm happy to see him recharging his batteries and getting in a little R&R.

Bush and the RNC are going to be shocked to see that their $200MM advertising campaign chest is not having the expected effect. Maybe because people understand the true reality of the Bush administration's 3 year "War on America"?

And we haven't even seen the damage of the administration investigations begin to kick in yet.

[Lexingtonian]

27. gee, a "My Anxiety and Homespun Bad Advice in 2004" forum

I have stopped reading all threads that have 'advice for' or 'open letter to' in their titles.

No, there are not a whole lot of 'great ideas' being put forth around here.

I'm sorry to sound like such a crank and disparage so many well meaning people, but most of the 'ideas' posted are painfully naive reflections of what folks here think people/voters who are already Democrats can and need to be told for what amount to therapeutic purpose.

The way to become 'likely to get listened to' is to materially help a campaign and come into a clear situational, experience based, understanding of what it is up against and needs to do. Everyone wants to talk about their personal desires, far fewer people have opinions that they can back with knowledge and conviction and persuasion and willingness to suffer for them, and power is the ability to make your opinion compelling enough to change others' opinions. There's usually an awful lot of hard work required between desire and accord of initially opposed others with it if the object is important.

Nor should anyone forget: in politics the game and situation are often not what they appear to be. All advice can seem perfectly right yet be perfectly wrong, be it from insiders or from outsiders.

Of course, talking over anxieties and desires and confidence and such is the stock in trade for DU, as well as first- often naive- activism. But to elevate the admixtures of parlor talk here with the belief that it's all valuable as advice to the people fighting in the trenches seems so, well, bizarre. I thought the usual way of offering unsolicited out-of-left-field advice was by letters to your Congressfolk and together with- rather than in lieu of- other contributions to the cause.

[ulTRAX]

31. seems you have no respect for the intellect of DU members....

Lexingtonian wrote: " gee, a "My Anxiety and Homespun Bad Advice in 2004" forum...." "But to elevate the admixtures of parlor talk here with the belief that it's all valuable as advice to the people fighting in the trenches seems so, well, bizarre."

If all you think you're capable of is giving homespun bad advice... then perhaps it's a good thing that you recognize your limitations and not offer any. However, I have more respect for the intellects of at least most members... and I believe they are just as capable of devising useful campaign strategies as paid operatives.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. You asked for responses to your original post, and you've gotten them...

...why do you want to act ugly about it?

[ulTRAX]

43. I asked for opinions about a FORUM... not Kerry's campaign

My original post was :URGENT PLEA TO DU: Please Create an "Advice To Kerry" Forum ASAP. I see Kerry floundering and in need of better answers to Bush attacks and better ideas to go on the offense. I don't much evidence he's getting either from his campaign strategists. Kerry needs ALL the help he can get.

The reason a separate forum is needed is because too many great ideas discussed here get buried in the GD and Campaign 2004 forums... both which are overused. We need to have a central place where such ideas are discussed... not just to focus our energies... but to make it more likely that we will be listened to...."

The issue is NOT whether anyone agrees with me or not about whether Kerry is floundering... or just didn't have the best week. I'd be suggesting such a forum regardless how the campaign was going for exactly the reasons stated. In fact I already have.... I only restated the request in this thread. Your problem is you want to debate a sideshow.

Now if someone wants to maintain such a FORUM would be useless... fine. But then their task is to argue just why that would be. If their opinion is based upon a lack of respect for the potential of the members here... then they should be called on it.

[stewert]

28. Hey.........

Kerry ignores some of the Bush lies because if you respond to them it just keeps
the story alive. Plus you give it credibility by responding to it, nobody will remember
any of this stuff in 6 months anyway.

[ulTRAX]

47. DUers... compared to general population

I think anyone posting here is more on top of the political issues than most in the general population. While we may roll our eyes at the latest Bush lies... I believe they would have some affect on the general population if not answered. Such ads and attacks are also ways of framing the debate. Bush wants to have the debate around HIS faming of the issues... to paint Kerry as someone who wants to raise taxes. He certainly can't defend his irresponsible deficits. Kerry MUST fight back on this issue

Kerry needs to nip this in the bud. But I don't see Kerry making a very good attempt to do so. I suggested some ideas in another thread................


Millions.... billions.... trillions.... the eyes of the American People glaze over. It's all too abstract. But what of those numbers were fleshed out? Check out this page!
http://www.crunchweb.net/87billion /
The images are simply shocking.... how would someone's annual income compare? What about the national debt... Debt held by the public = $4.146 TRILLION
Intragovernmental Holdings = $2.953 TRILLION. For a grand total of 7.099 TRILLION... or 7,099 BILLION.
What about the nation's BIGGEST waste of money: interest on the debt.... from http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdint.htm
interest for FY 03 was $318 BILLION... Whoa!! 318 Billion pissed away that buys the American People N O T H I N G. That exposes the GOP's complaints about other spending programs as a transparent farce.


Bush's attacks are based upon using his IRRESPONSIBLE tax policies as the baseline. Bush ignore the fact they have proven to be a disaster.

Kerry should keep pounding away that the CLINTON era is the baseline... for it's THOSE policies that got rid of the deficits. Doesn't anyone remember how good the nation felt when we were running a surplus? All that hard work by BOTH parties was lost with Bush's irresponsible tax cuts.

As part of this strategy, it then may be possible to sneak in the "restore tax level" line as opposed to letting Bush define the debate as Kerry trying to "raise taxes".

Once the above is done... Kerry MUST explain that the GOP is NOT the party of fiscal responsibility. It has been taken over by radicals who use sabotaging revenues as a political weapon. The numbers prove that over the past 20 years... Republicans create massive deficits while Democrats tame them.

Kerry MUST explain that it took TWENTY YEARS to climb out of the sea of red ink that Reagan created with his irresponsible tax cuts. After all that hard work Clinton and the GOP just about broke even. Bush cut revenues before ANY real debt paydown was made.

Kerry should remind voters that in 2000 the Bush tax cuts were ONLY discussed because there was a surplus. Yet the American People WISELY voted AGAINST Bush's tax cuts. Now even as we bleed red ink... Bush wants round four.

In 2000 Bush ran on strengthening SS first... and tax cuts were secondary. Yet there is NO evidence that Bush EVER plans to strengthen SS... and ALL the evidence is that he wants to put it in peril. Is this idea of Bush's faith based retirement plan for the American People?

Restoring taxes is NOT the same as raising taxes. Even if the wealthy have tax levels restored.... they STILL got a massive cut for 3-4 years.

[Ksec]

29. I say the DNC is not doing its job. It seems to me that Dems are all over

the place. No unity . No plan . The Repubs are way ahead in establishing point counterpoints and although having stock answers isnt all that good its what media plays.

We need to come together and have a united front and Im not seeing that. If DU is any indication of Dem platforms we are in trouble. Ive tried to post stuff and I get nothing but greif and nitpicking . I blame it on the leadership of the DNC. Hes not getting it done.

[scottxyz]

45. This is a great idea

When we harness the power of the internet, letting tons of people contribute ideas and letting the best ones win, we often get WAY better results than with just a few people sitting around in a room.

The internet is a phenomenal tool for fundraising (Dean) and brainstorming. It's not just the amount of information available - it's the sparring and vetting that goes on in this "free marketplace of ideas".

We need a forum where the best ideas can percolate to the top, to help Kerry keep up with the barrage of attacks starting up against him. A specific "Advice to Kerry" or "Rapid Response" forum on DU would be a GREAT practical use for DU.

[ulTRAX]

46. thanks

I was tired of getting beaten up for suggesting what seemed to be a good idea. BTW... I've posted in the admin forum. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=120x15666

[grasswire]

48. I think it's a good idea, too...

....if it can be kept free of chit chat and commentary ON the suggestions. Back-and-forth would kill the purpose. Make it clear that DUers shouldn't talk to each other in the thread.

[IronLionZion]

49. In that case

you can just email your suggestions to the Kerry campaign. Forums are for discussing and ideas can often merge or evolve to become better through discussion.

[ulTRAX]

51. that's my point

Independent429 wrote: "In that case you can just email your suggestions to the Kerry campaign."

I wasn't thinking about individuals sending ideas to the Kerry Campaign.

"Forums are for discussing and ideas can often merge or evolve to become better through discussion."

This is exactly my point. There's a synergy that occurs when minds meet. Ideas are best developed in forums. But for that to be an efficient process... forums need to concentrate people around a topic... not leave them in a maelstrom like GD where ideas get lost.

[Judi Lynn]

50. This thread reminds me of another one in G.D. today

In this thread, the poster invites us to behold the degree of contempt with which someone views John Kerry, to the point of publishing asinine "jokes" at his expense, while pretending to work as a journalist:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1262138

The actual "tone" or "sincerity" of the poster seems a little questionable.

[Moderator]

52. Locking

Please post any requests like this in the Ask The Administrators forum.