Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why Dean over Kucinich?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Magical Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:34 AM
Original message
Why Dean over Kucinich?
I've heard many people say they support Dean and say he's the best candidate, but I don't believe enough people have heard DK speak. The same qualaties people say Dean possesses I see shining in DK 1000 times brighter. So why lack of support for Kucinich? Please don't take this as an attack on Dean, because it's not and I would support him in the election if it was him vs W.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. I trust Dean with my $.
I admire that Kucinich held out against Corporations trying to buy the electric utility, but why was his city in such a bad fiscal position that it had to go bankrupt anyway?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. cant blame him for what happened with his predecessors
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Kucinich stood up to the banks that wanted to buy the city utility.

Cleveland Magazine offered this summary: “Kucinich refused to yield to bankers who gave him a choice: Sell the Municipal Light System to the Cleveland Electric Illuminating Co. or the city will go into default. The mayor said no.”

When Kucinich refused to sell Muny Light, the banks took the unprecedented step of refusing to roll over the city’s debt, as is customary. Instead, they pushed the city into default. It turned out the banks were thoroughly interlocked with the private utility, CEI, which would have acquired monopoly status by taking over Muny Light. Five of the six banks held almost 1.8 million shares of CEI stock; of the 11 directors of CEI, eight were also directors of four of the six banks involved.

"There is little debate,” wrote Cleveland Magazine in May 1996, “over the value of Muny Light today. Now Cleveland Public Power, it is a proven asset to the city that between 1985 and 1995 saved its customers $195,148,520 over what they would have paid CEI.”

In 1998, the Cleveland City Council issued a commendation to Dennis Kucinich for "having the courage and foresight to refuse to sell the city's municipal electric system."

http://www.kucinich.us
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. !!! Welcome to the DU !!!
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 03:50 AM by AmyStrange

the city was going bankrupt? I think you're misrepresenting the facts... Cleveland was not going bankrupt. Bridgeport, Connecticut was the first city to declare bankruptcy or maybe it was just the first city to seriously be considered (according to the media) able to win the legal battle?

In short, just because a city is having fiscal problems doesn't mean it is going bankrupt.

Thanx for joining us and here's a place you can go to check out what the hell DUers are talking about:

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/






Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762


edited spelling
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
47. It was in a bad fiscal position
because the people who preceded Dennis had spend the city into serious debt, possibly corruptly. Dennis was elected because of his promise not to sell Muni Light...that was already on the table as a 'solution' to the created problem.

So it was in trouble because of what preceding administrations had done, not because of what he did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
2. welcome to DU first off and I agree with you
Now heres what I think and they can flame me all they want. They are not big fans of the DLC most Dean supporters, they think Dean is electable as do I, yet for the same reasons as the DLC dismiss Dennis. They are mostly good people but dont realize Dean only gives us a 90 not a 180 if you wanna speak turns. I can see myself as an old man remembering good old Dennis Kucinich, the way the old timers today think of FDR. Kucinich is everything I as a liberal have dreamed about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
49. Again
Want a 180? how about Moseley-Braun?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. dont know much about her
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. that's no excuse
;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. well dont worry about me I am ABB
I supported Gore in 2000, and even though I disagreed with him a lot I defended Clinton. I am a dem with green posistions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
4. Regardless of the political views of Kucinich
both he and Gephardt are congressmen. Dean is a governor. All else being equal Governors have a better historical record of winning the Whitehouse then congressmen. Even Senators have a hard time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. yeah that explains it but me being me I love to keep heart
need I say I am an idealist but you know i think DK could win and I really do think that hes a great fella.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Historically, the candidate who wins is always the
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 02:50 AM by DemBones DemBones
taller candidate, so Dean is out of luck, governor or not. I think we are foolish if we put too much credence in "It's never happened before so it never will happen" hypotheses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Not true
5' 9½" Jimmy Carter

6' 0" Gerald R Ford



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. OK, exception proves the rule but will Dean be another exception?

Or Kucinich? Is Bush* taller than both or the same height? I'm not going to worry much about height or other "traditions."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. Bush is taller but who cares
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JustJoe Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. I'm for Dean but
I got a chance to hear Kucinich at a vegan conference
here in LA tomorrow. Think it'd be worth it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. yes it would be, hes a great guy, and Tiniore can you that personally
He has a good sense of humor too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
58. Definitely go! You won't regret it!
I went and it was memorable.

Try to go see all the candidates so you can hear and ask first-hand but whatever you do, don't miss Kucinich!

Peace

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=10913&mesg_id=10913
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AmyStrange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. !!! WELCOME TO THE DU !!!

I love both Dean and Kucinich, but my practical side favors Dean. Kucinich is one of my fave dream team match ups with Dean. Along with Clark and Graham.

Here's a place you can go learn what the DU slang means:

DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/







Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KellyW Donating Member (539 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. DK is not the uber liberal
He has a bad voting record on choice.
He voted for the flag burning Amendment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. he envolved on choice
that flag burning amendment was actually a desecration and would you rather have someone who favors NAFTA and the WTO>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. These questions have all been addressed here before but

here's a short refresher: Kucinich quit voting on abortion measures about two years ago while he was reconsidering his position. He announced his changed position in February and since then has not only voted against the "partial birth" abortion ban but spoke out against it. He has promised that any Supreme Court nominee he nominated would have to support Roe v. Wade.

He voted for the amendment to stop flag desecration because he's very patriotic and the flag symbolizes the great things about our country, its Constitution, etc.

Voters need to examine a candidate's position on all the issues, and Kucinich is the most progressive Democrat in this race. Here is a list of Dennis Kucinich's Top Ten Issues, with a little detail on each of them.

<1> Universal Health Care with a Single Payer Plan

(Medicare for All, with affordable prescription drugs through bulk purchasing.)

<2> Full Social Security Benefits at Age 65

(Funded by progressive tax structure and reordered national priorities. No privatization.)

<3> Withdrawal from NAFTA and WTO

("Trade treaties must be conditioned on workers’ rights, human rights, and environmental principles.")

<4> Repeal of the "Patriot Act"

("The government must not be allowed, without probable cause or warrant, to snoop on our communications, medical records, library records, and student records."


<5> Right-to-Choose, Privacy, and Civil Rights

(End the Drug War and capital punishment, support affirmative action, etc.)

<6> Balance Between Workers and Corporations

(Labor rights, collective bargaining, "living wage" rather than just minimum wage, etc.)

<7> Guaranteed Quality Education, Pre-K through College

("Since education is the only proven way to reduce poverty, it is unacceptable that a child’s education be dependent on where they are born or the financial status of their family.")

<8> A Renewed Commitment to Peace and Diplomacy

(Cut unnecessary military spending but pay the military better, Space Preservation Treaty to prohibit space-based weapons, etc.)

<9> Restored Rural Communities and Family Farms

(Break up agri-business monopolies, ensure healthy food with strong USDA enforcemen, etc..)

<10> Environmental Renewal and Clean Energy

(Support Kyoto Treaty, clean energy policy, right to know will supercede corporate secrecy, as with labeling of genetically modified foods, which the corporations oppose, etc.)

More on these ten issues and, many other issues, is available at

http://www.kucinich.us
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. you know anything about stem cells and him thats a first for me
I respectfully disagree with his vote but you know I see what the flag means for him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. The problem with his FBA vote
I am personally unpatriotic. Moreover, I think that patriotism is a sign of sheepishness and lack of critical faculties. However, I support anyone's right not to think for himself, and to be patriotic. The country, similarly, should respect the freedoms of thought and expression of both patriots and non-patriots; it should never have an oficial ideology, be it Christianity, conservatism, atheism, progressivism, or patriotism. The FBA means that the flag is more important than freedom of speech, which imposes patriotism as a state ideology. State-sanctioned patriotism is fascism, for it forces the people to serve and support the country instead of vice versa. Flag burning is a way for people to send a very sharp piece of feedback to the government: screw you and your symbol. That feedback is as important as any other feedback, because denying it, like denying any other feedback, not only decreases the people's quality of life by not letting them do something that doesn't hurt anyone but also reduces the ability of the government to make rational judgments about what the people think.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
50. And a bad history in race relations
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #50
59. That's not true. Nothing more than a smear!
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 09:10 AM by Tinoire
If you're going to toss that around, please provide more than an accusation by backing that up with details people can check!

Mud-tossing and smears are the last thing we need at DU where people care enough to find the best candidate - it doesn't matter how inadvertently you did that.

Back it up please. You should be careful about repeating things you don't check.

Kucinich's record on race relations is excellent. Furthermore he is the only candidate who has pledged to put affirmative action into federal law.

Furthermore, never once in the Black community have I heard this smear! If anything, people are excited about Kucinich and the great things we've heard from his Black constituents. This man grew up in the projects, color-blind and has a sterling record of working with the Black community.

Kucinich is the former mayor of Cleveland, a multi-cultural city where Blacks alone comprise 51% of the population in a state that has two other cities, Cincinnati and Columbus, where Blacks are prominent. He is currently on his 4th term and loved for his ability to reach across and care for all his constituents. No small accomplishment that!

So once again, back it up!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. Okay
This article is no longer available at the Plain Dealer site, but I found it reproduced this site (granted it is a smear site)-

http://www.kucinich.com/Racist%20&%20Opportunist.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #63
80. Not for love or money will I go to that site - DO NOT GO THERE!
((Will answer your accusation in a subsequent e-mail))

Posted a warning about that site on July 27 at DU and have had the information that this is possible confirmed by Papau who is not a DK supporter. You might want to check your e-mail history:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=106&topic_id=847&mesg_id=847

Just recieved this warning from the DK HQ's.

From: "Kucinich Virtual Outreach Coordinator" |
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:34:39 -0500
Subject: Warning re kucinich.com and spam reports

We got the following message in from a Kucinich supporter and I wanted to share it and another caution:

---Quote---

A warning should be sent out to members about kucinich.com - when I posted a message to this nuisance web site two things happened:

1) I got a spam message back from the webmaster and

2) I noticed that a message had been sent from my computer to the web site.

After going back and forth with this email train with the webmaster, I used the Outlook 2000 feature to check for "related" messages and found that two totally unrelated messages had also been linked in from my server based personal folders. Both of these unrelated emails were from another unrelated email chain, but THEY WERE THE ONLY TWO MESSAGES IN MY FOLDER THAT MENTIONED GEORGE BUSH in the body of the message. This was a company based email server to which access is limited only to emails. (By the way although difficult to prosecute,
this is a crime that was committed here, as it was company property.)

While I have no proof that dirty tricks are coming from this particular web site, I suspect a hack is in the mix there somewhere and the timing is very suspicious.

I would recommend that kucinich.com be avoided / excluded / filtered and that [email protected] be added to spam filters to prevent the introduction of any email related search viruses. I have already instructed XXXX (edited to protect supporter supplying this information) network personnel to take this precaution.

---End Quote---

So folks – block those cookies and be careful out there. Make certain your anti-virus programs are up-to-date and consider the installation of a firewall and an anti-trojan if you don’t have one. If you are not sure what a firewall or anti-trojan program is, here is one of many sites on the net that offers some explanations.

http://www.firewallguide.com/

Claudia Slate
e-mail edited
Virtual Outreach Coordinator
Kucinich in 2004 Campaign
www.kucinich.us

------

Papau's response:
Same thing happen to me today - my email address stollen to send spam


a very good firewall and trojan program did not prevent the theft!


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #63
81. So I did a little research on this "racism" / DK people PLS READ
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 07:17 PM by Tinoire
I will simply quote the conclusion from that same article that attempts to put a bad light on a man who doesn't have a racist bone in his body. Btw, did you know Kucinich grew up in the projects and color-blind?

Soon thereafter, a federal judge ordered Cleveland schools to use busing to integrate. Despite anger among whites, Mayor Kucinich kept the peace.

"The thing that people have never given Dennis credit for was the desegregation," said Esther Weissman, who was a lawyer for the court clerk's office and campaigned for Kucinich for mayor. "There was never any problem, in contrast to Boston, in contrast to other major cities."

Pinkney, a former political strategist for Carl Stokes, says that while Kucinich frequently criticized Stokes "to make himself visible and to build his base among whites on the West Side," Kucinich today is popular among Cleveland's black voters because of his fights for the disadvantaged and blue-collar workers.

Louis Stokes says that when Kucinich was mayor, he gave many jobs to blacks and eventually healed his rift with Carl Stokes. The two often met for breakfast at Shaker Square before Carl Stokes died in 1996.


That from the smear article too!

Now... So researching into this... Who do I find out was Carl Stokes was? He was a political rival who just happened to be Black. And now, just because Kucinich didn't get along with Carl Stokes - the smear campaigners imply that Kucinich is a racist in general. Jesus! Thank God Carl Stokes wasn't an Etiopian Jew. We'd be hearing that Kucinich was an anti-Semite too! Political rivals disagree all the time, sometimes vehemently and all that is fine and well but playing the Clarence Thomas racism card is unacceptable!!


You know what's really sad. We Black folks can smell insincerity and hypocrisy a mile away. We smelled it when Gore wouldn't have any Black secret service men (btw, did you make a stink about that for us?) and we smell ROTTEN politics when people smear a man Blacks have overwhelmingly voted for in Ohio and who has done more for Black advancement and for the improvement of race relations than most candidates put together.

It seems that all that's out there is one smear article from an author with a vendetta on a web-site with a vendetta? If there were any basis to that smear, one would think there would be a lot more than that insinuating article. Black people aren't shy. Don't you think we would have spoken up and spilled this long ago?

So I went to research Carl Stokes... And here's what I found.
Here's whatMelvin Holli, had said about him:

((Melvin Holli is Professor of History at the University of Illinois at Chicago. He's just written a book called The American Mayor: the Best and the Worst Big City Leaders. 90.3's April Baer spoke with him about some of Cleveland's luminaries))


AB–Are you familiar with the tenure of Carl Stokes here in Cleveland?

MH–Yes.

AB–Now here's a fellow who really set a great impression in a lot of people's minds, in terms of what he was able to accomplish - simply by becoming Cleveland's first black mayor. And yet I notice he did not happen to make your list.

MH–No, he did not. He suffered a very bad shoot-out and riot that occurred in his city, a black versus white shoot-out which you may recall having read or heard about, and it was discovered that some of the black militants and nationals had been using public money to buy guns and firearms, which they then used against the police. And when the riot occurred, he pulled all the white police off out. He thought he could control the riot by putting black police officers in. It flopped completely. It didn't work as a strategy, and toward the end of his term, Carl Stokes became more and more militant and played the race card over and over again, and recognized he could not be re-elected. So the riot really crushed his career, as it would many other mayors. The riot would also crush Jerome Cavanaugh's career in Detroit - and Cavanaugh was a white mayor! But riots are very costly to a mayor's reputation. Let me give you another example - one of the great mayors who's mentioned in our top ten, a black mayor in Los Angeles: Tom Bradley, a very successful mayor in his twenty years in office. He was also crushed by the LA riots of 1992. He realized he could not be re-elected after that riot, saw the handwriting on the wall, and walked away from the office. So Stokes was not unusual, although Stokes suffered more than Bradley did.

AB–One wonders if any mayor could stand such a challenge - such serious racial unrest as that - and come out completely unscathed.

MH–Well, Mayor Richard J. Daley did. He was one of the tough guys who survived the 60s.


http://www.wcpn.org/spotlight/news/0301mayor.html

About Melvin Holli: Melvin Holli, a professor of history at the University of Illinois in Chicago, has written the book, The American Mayor: the Best and Worst of the Big City Leaders.He is a member of the American Historical Association and the Organization of American Historians. Holli has been awarded the Woodrow Wilson fellowship, the National Endowment for the Humanities fellowship and the Society of Midland Authors prize for best history.

-----
More about just what a racist opportunist :eyes: Kucinich is:

Excerpt from From David C. Ruffin’s “Fairness Agenda in a Conservative Congress” Oct 1999

Going President Clinton’s New Markets Tour this
summer one better, the members of the Progressive Caucus ((of which Kucinich is the co-chair))
will launch an “Economic Human Rights” bus tour of the Deep South from Atlanta to Birmingham, between November 11 and 13. During the tour, participating Caucus members will visit local health clinics, schools, and work sites, including abandoned textile mills that have been relocated overseas. At each stop, the Caucus members will hold field hearings in economically depressed areas where they will listen to testimony from local organizations. The primary focus of the hearings will be on the issues of health care, education, and income equity. The members expected to join the tour are: John Lewis and Cynthia McKinney of Georgia, Earl Hilliard of Alabama, Luis
Gutierrez of Illinois, Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas, John Conyers of Michigan, and Caucus Chair Peter DeFazio of Oregon. They will be accompanied by Harry Belafonte and Danny Glover.

Members of the Caucus plan to use the information
gleaned from the hearings to craft legislation to implement
various elements of the Agenda. Some bills have already
been drafted, including the Corporate Welfare Reduction
Act, Income Equity Act, and the American Jobs Act.
www.jointcenter.org/focus/pdffiles/oct99.pdf

((Kucinich all alone with such a huge group of black folks- they would have eaten him alive if he were a racist opportunist!))

--- More about Carl Stokes:

CHAPTER FIFTEEN: Up from the Depths, Down Again, Then Up: 1971-1975

When Ralph Perk became mayor of Cleveland in November 1971, his first job was to pick up the pieces that Carl Stokes had left, after Stokes blew his big opportunity to pull the city together. It was strictly a rescue job, to overcome a $13.5 million cash deficit, give a raise to city employees negotiated six months previously without the money to pay it, to get rid of incompetents Stokes had loaded on the payroll, but most of all to start the citizens believing in themselves again. It looked like a Herculean job.

http://clevelandmemory.org/SpecColl/porter/Chapt15.html

After reading all I read about Carl Stokes I would certainly hope Kucinich had some harsh words for him! What I am disappointed in is that Carl Stokes would use the race card and that others would repeat that smear simply because Kucinich is not their candidate.

Repeating this garbage is beneath you.

And while we're on the subject. Here's what I found out about that web-site www.kucinich.com (and no you're not responsible for it but you and everyone else should know what's behind that so-called "parody" site) that grabs any e-mail with the word BUSH out of your e-mail system ((see my post above))




In an April 9, 2003 e-mail Motley commented on his "Truth About Dennis Kucinich" site,
I have learned that some people can take a joke and some cannot. A few people opposed to my site actually have a sense of humor which is comforting.
Motley explains his motivation in the "About Us" section of the site:
This website is run by me as a personal project. I guess you could call it a "labor of love".
I picked up the domain about four years ago when I realized that it was available and Dennis had not grabbed it. I originally had www.kucinch.org as well but it didn't get that many hits so I dropped it. I started getting tons of hits when the Kucinich for President Campaign (hee hee - I snicker when I hear that) announced it was using www.kucinch.us as it's official site. I've gotten over 7,000 hits (as of March 25) since the announcement in late February! Most of these hits are from folks looking for the official site so you can imagine the response I get from them.
As a Cleveland native, I have followed Dennis' career for the last three decades and have grown to despise him. Quite simply, Dennis is a communist, baby-killing, carrot-chomping, opportunist who is DANGEROUS and who drove us to war with Iraq with his so-called peace efforts. He has done NOTHING in his 30 + years on the public dole except grab headlines. He has created no jobs, has no ideas and is just out for himself. He has no idea what this region needs and doesn't care. He's an embarrassment to Northeastern Ohio and I am trying, in a little way, to get the word out about him. If people know what he really stands for, there's NO WAY he will be able to keep his job.
By the way, the web site has no connection to Dennis Kucinich. And while I am a registered Republican and am active in local politics, the site is not sponsored or supported by any political party. I have a regular job in the private sector, pay taxes, am married and am trying to raise my kids in this world being corrupted by Dennis and other "evil doers". The site is funded by me and operated by me. My only motive is to spread the truth about Dennis Kucinich!
John Motley


http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/cands/web0403b.html

----
Election 2004 March 03, 2003

Strongsville GOP's Childish Tactics
Tonight I happened upon www.kucinich.com... which turns out to be a juvenile, hateful, anti-Kucinich web portal.

BY Brian Douglas

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Disgusted with this, I decided to find out who is behind it. Well, I did a domain look up, and the best I could find was that the web site was registered by a "J Motley", with additional contact information pointing to P.O. Boxes and unaffiliated phone #'s. So whoever is behind it is too cowardly to admit it. So after some googling, I finally found this:


http://www.strongsvillegop.com/Contact%20Us.htm ((GOP ??? HMMM- More Rove tactics from these Freeper Nazis or what?! ))

You'll note the Vice President is John Motley, and in the "Links" box on the right side of the page you'll see Kucinich.com
I was very disgusted and discouraged by www.kucinich.com. I am doing my best to support candidates like Kucinich, and am doing my best to spread the word about his recently announced candidacy, and it really pisses me off that a lot of people who will want to find out more about him, may just go ahead and type in www.kucinich.com only to find that the GOP has gotten their hands on it.

The twisted minds of the republican campaign managers have been pretty web-savvy in the past. I remember reading an article a while ago about how GW's campain went and bought roughly 200 domains that could have been used against them (i.e. www.dontvotebush.com bushsucks.com nobush2000.com etc). ((And yes that article is in the DU archives))

There's got to be a way to make this work against the Republicans. I think that anyone and everyone who supports Kucinich shouldn't boycott this site, rather they should promote the hell out of it. Why? Because it so brashly demonstrates the immature, dirty political tactics of the republican party. Everyone I've shown this site to found it just as disgusting as me, and thereby either strengthened Kucinich, weakened his opposition, and many times both.


http://216.239.33.104/search?q=cache:4Wvbhfb_n7MJ:www.just-cause.org/archives/000005.html+%22John+Motley%22+Republican+kucinich&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #50
71. Completely UNTRUE...
The black councilman who alleged that was working WITH the power company to take over city power. Kucinich stood firmly against it.

I'd like to hear you try to smear Kucinich in front of the Congressional Black Cauacus.

Speaking of smears, who was it who dissed Marian Wright Edelman? Oh yeah...I remember...it was Howard Dean who scorned liberals like Marian Wright Edelman.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. yeah seriously and that is a smear site Webster
Thats like using HowardDeansucks.com to get info about him no offense. I think one of Kucinich's best friends on the hill is one Barbara Lee who also belongs to the cancus, and also if he was racist why would John Conyers, the highly respected Michigan representive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. The article is from the "Plain Dealer"
Of course it was used it on a smear site---it doesn't paint a flattering portrait. (Why anyone would care enough to attack Kucinich -and devote an entire site about him, is beyond me). Google it, you'll find many mentions of it. If I can find dirt, anyone can.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. ok I guess so
I know that site. He has been forgiven though and it seems that some others havent been perfect themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
14. I just don't like Kucinich very much.
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 02:58 AM by killbotfactory
I don't like him as a speaker, and think he comes off as extremely shrill.

He voted for the Iraq Liberation Act in 1998, which authorized military means to have a regime change in Iraq, and then criticized the policy recently.

He has a horrible record on reproductive rights, until very recently.

He voted for a resolution condemning medical marijuana, and then came out for it when he started campaigning.

If he gets elected I don't think he has a chance in hell of passing his agenda, and his claim that he can get elected 300 or so new congressmen to support him is hard for me to believe.

He has way too much religious rhetoric in some of his speaches.

He opposes stem cell research.

That along with his history of trying to legislate his religious belief that life begins at conception (see his abortion record), along with his embracing of pseudoscience like psychic healers and beleif in "chemtrails" and mind control devices makes me very uncomfortable.

He supports an anti-flag desecration amendment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
33. I just don't like Dean very much

but I'll give him a fair chance to get my vote if he wins the nomination. I hope you'll do the same for Kucinich.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. agreed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #33
69. I'll vote for whoever is the democratic nominee
But DK's not going to get my support in the primary, obviously.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
41. I Agree With Killbotfactory
I agree with KBF's points and then some. I could discount his lack of polish in speech-giving, but the others are real factors for me. I've seen what his defenderds have to say, and frankly, it isn't enough for me. I have some other gut-level misgivings that I can't really articulate or defend; after all, they're gut reactions. However, if his is the name on the ballot, I will hold my nose and cast my vote for him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
15. Killbotfactory is right ^^^
Dean is the most secular politician I can think of, apart from Jesse Ventura whose record on atheists' rights is about the same. Kucinich is not; he has a horrible record on choice and flip-flopped on the issue, he voted for condmening Newdow vs. Congress, and he opposes stem cell research. Dean, on the other hand, performed abortions AFAIK when he was a doctor and is very pro-choice.

Besides, Dean's far more electable than Kucinich and that counts.

I think that Kucinich is better than Dean in three respects, though: he opposes the death penalty, he is a pacifist, and he has a better chance to win Ohio for an obvious reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I dont like that much but its economics is why I support Kucinich
Well I disagree with your statement that Kucinich isnt secular, he's very progressive on the matter of gay rights, and I think he can envolve on issues, evolution is part of politics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Evolution
There's a difference between evolution and flip-flop. Evolution is what people do when they slowly swing from one direction to another, e.g. Arianna Huffington's move from conservatism to combination of conservatism and progressivism. Flip-flop is what people do when they spend most of their political career voting for an issue and then for political reasons decide to change their mind, e.g. Kucinich on abortion.

Oh, and btw, I actually support the idea of NAFTA with some amendments. Dean's position is almost exactly the same as mine; Kucinich's could hardly be further away.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. well dean has flip floped to be fair
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 03:37 AM by JohnKleeb
I disagree with you on NAFTA so there. I am not mad or anything keep in mind red. Maybe it wasnt right to flip flop but you know what I am saying most of them do it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. He flip-flopped on corporate power, I think...
...but I'm not so sure.

And I won't bash Kucinich too much, considering that he's my number two preference in the primary and close enough so that I'd approve him in an approval vote election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I am not sure oh I know you arent bashing
I had no idea he was number two to you. Dont worry I consider myself on good terms with most of Dean's supporters and most of them in turn respect DK., I just would call him somewhat secular being that he is good on gays and all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. Yeah...
...unlike most Catholics he supports gay rights, but he still voted for condemning Newdow vs. Congress and hasn't spoken much against the Christian Coalition and the Moral Majority.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. actually I would say most Catholic reps tend to be pretty liberal
To be honest and fair I havent heard really any of the candiates speak out against those groups. Catholics actually tend to be pretty liberal, well Catholics are a bunch of things. I wish he had voted differently but other than those things he is probably the best on the issues for me, Dean I think may surpass him on some social issues but on economics Kucinich surpasses him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
31. DK quit voting on abortion measures about two years ago because

he was rethinking his position. That's evolution, not a flip flop.

Was aspiration to run for president one of the reasons he rethought his position? I'd be amazed if it wasn't, the common "wisdom" being you can't be a Democrat and pro life. But there is no reason to believe that what he has said -- that he was disenchanted with other pro-lifers who seemed to be more anti-woman than pro-child -- isn't true, or that his new statement of belief that Roe v. Wade is needed to ensure women's equality isn't true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. thanks dembones again I understand a little
I think he had the good motives, I think he is or was in the third way, that I think you dembones, Tiniore I think, and my grandparents belong to. He wants to reduce abortion through education not outright banning RoeVWade and I like that, and I think the people who are republican because of choice should listen to this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Dean never performed abortions, actually.
He worked for planned parenthood, but never actually performed an abortion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I didnt know but I respect your concerns with Kucinich
That being said everyone has their flaws imo and I like Kucinich's economic plan the best. I am not gonna flame you and red, just because of concerns you have with Kucinich, I am very pro choice too and for stem cell research but Kucinich has some good ideas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. I stand corrected (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
53. Howard Dean is NOT a pacifist and he is for the dp in certain cases!!
This is EXACTLY what people mean when they say Dean's campaign is misleading.

"After the war, Dean said, "I am not a pacifist. I believe there are times when pre-emptive force is justified, but there has to be an immediate threat, and there just wasn't in this case.""
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086440/

He also is for the death penalty in certain cases.

"After careful deliberation, Dean concluded that the death penalty may be an appropriate punishment in limited circumstances such as the murder of a child or a police officer.

...Finally, as a result of the mass murder that took place on September 11, 2001, he concluded that the death penalty should also be available in cases of terrorists who take human life."
http://www.talkleft.com/archives/003437.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
68. He didn't mislead anyone.
First of all, 1/3 of the nation opposed the war, and even more were ambivilent about it. Being anti-Iraq war does not mean being a pacifist, and never has been, except in the mind of lazy pundits.

Secondly, He's always maintained that he would support military action, but that Bush hasn't proved the case.

Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said if Saddam is shown to have atomic or biological weapons, the United States must act. But he also said Bush must first convince Americans that Iraq has these weapons and then prepare them for the likelihood American troops would be there for a decade.

August 12, 2002

"there's substantial doubt that is as much of a threat as the Bush administration claims." Though Americans might initially rally to military action, 'that support will be very short-lived once American kids start coming home in boxes,' Mr. Dean warned Wednesday as he campaigned in Iowa.

September 06, 2002

Dean, in an interview Tuesday, said flatly that he did not believe Bush has made "the case that we need to invade Iraq." Dean said he could support military action, even outside the U.N., if Bush could "establish with reasonable credibility" that Hussein had the capacity to deliver either nuclear or biological weapons against the United States and its allies. But he said that the president, to this point, hadn't passed that test.

"He is asking American families to sacrifice their children, and he's got to have something more than, 'This is an evil man,' " Dean said. "There are a lot of evil people running countries around the world; we don't bomb every one of them. We don't ask our children to die over every one of them."

September 18, 2002

"I do not believe the president has made the case to send American kids and grandkids to die in Iraq. And until he does that, I don't think we ought to be going into Iraq.

So I think the two situations are fairly different. Iraq does not possess nuclear weapons. The best intelligence that anybody can find, certainly that I can find, is that it will be at least a year before he does so and maybe five years."

January 06, 2003

"I would like to at least have the president, who I think is an honest person, look us in the eye and say, 'We have evidence, here it is.' We've never heard the president of the United States say that.There is nothing but innuendo, and I want to see some hard facts,"

December 22, 2002
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
72. Who said he WAS a pacifist?
He never did and so how can that be misleading?

Dean has been amazingly HONEST about his positions.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redeye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #72
84. No one
I said Kucinich was a pacifist as one of the isues in which he's better than Dean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackSwift Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
26. I like Kucinich, so please don't be offended by
what I have to say.

Kucinich has been a Congressman and a mayor. He doesn't have the prestige of being a governor.

Kucinich has a style of speaking that involves shouting. That doesn't go over well with most people.

Kucinich doesn't have moderate credentials the way Dean does.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. well I am not offended its all good really
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 03:44 AM by JohnKleeb
What I do recommend against is:
calling him ugly that imo is a tactic that Bush and Co like to use to win even though Shrub isnt the freshest face.
Saying with that name "Kucinich" he cant win, since when do you have to have a typical Western European surname to win.
Its ok Jack, you made honest and fair points.
Well maybe yes he was mayor but that city is the same size of Vermont about. He really doesnt have much of a shout to me at notice or it could be I dont care, I dont care about moderate credentials I want a liberal to win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. So, John, how do the populations of Cleveland and Vermont compare?

Numbers, I mean, I know Cleveland has more ethnic groups. How many people in Cleveland, how many in Vermont? Or how do the budgets compare? You always know some interesting details.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. lemme do some research
Cleveland is definely more ethnic.
478,403------------Cleveland, Ohio
584,771------------The state of Vermont
They are simliar in popluation, Kucinich did his mayoring at a younger age than Dean did his governing, thats not a insult to Dean just a fact,
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #26
85. These are the reasons I don't favor Kucinich
During the debates in Chicago, while Dean impressed me with his articulate responses, Kucinich immediately turned me off by the fact that he was screaming every single answer. He was acting like he was at a rally when he was answering questions in a debate. Though this thread has pointed out some other things that cement my opinion that I could never support him (e.g. supporting a flag burning amendment and being against stem cell research)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:02 AM
Response to Original message
40. I am off to bed now people
Glad to see that this thread has been civil. Thanks guys. I am glad I didnt see a picture of Kucinich and "does this look presidential" and making fun of his name. Thanks everyone. Kucinich in 2004 but ABB of course.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. Nighty night!
...and sieg heil! :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. thanks doing some multi tasking now
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 04:19 AM by JohnKleeb
between DU and responding to my emails should be out of here and my email when I am done eating my late snack. and George says Sieg Heil do

wonders you can do btw I gotta hurry up eating my rice krispie treats or I am gonna feel tired at work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. G'nite John
Good thread, in large part because of you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. night, and thank you
but I gotta thank the non Kucinich supporters for being honest and constructive on DK and of course Kucinich supporters not acting like assholes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
46. I'm gonna toss out one I've not heard on this thread yet...
...Dean is a better match for me on the issues I care about, and the ability to accomplish agenda. I'm not quite so "liberal" on the same issues as DK. I like DK, and think he's a fine congressman, he's just not my preference at the national level.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
48. Because Dean can win
Kucinich can't.

It is really that simple--there is no mystery about it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
54. Who said I favored Dean over Kucinich
It is the combined threat of the social constructs of Corpratism (fascism) and the Religious Right (theocracy) that are the single greatest threat to us. We need someone that is ready to fight for the people. Not the Corporations or the Churchs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
56. Kucinich can never be elected
I'm certain that he's a good man and has a lot
of solid progressive credentials. But he will
never be President. He has little to no name recognition
and proposals like the Department of Peace and his
attempt to ban mind-control weapons in space would make him
an object of derision and ridicule. And this sounds cruel
but he looks like a little kid. I know that shouldn't matter
but I'm afraid it matters a great deal.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. If we do not fight for ideals
Who will? Fighting for someone that does not champion our ideals does not gain us anything other than bragging rights. Voting is our voice people. If you disguise your voice you will not be heard.

You know what happens when you do not vote your position? The market of public opinion slides further in whichever direction you compromise. Simply by moving in that direction you enable the slide to the right. Either you find your sticking point or you will be pulled into the pit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Why not Sharpton then? Why not Moseley Braun?
is it because they are...unelectable? And why is that? Sharpton has baggage, Kucinch has baggage, Carol has baggage, but why Kucinich is considered and not the other two?

Ideals, shlameles. This is about rallying behind the momentum to end the strangle-hold on our country that is crippling the world. I will not throw my primary vote away on an unelectable candidate and reduce the odds for the one candidate who has the best shot to steer the country back on course in this serious election. I will not dillute the progressive vote that would allow one of the more establishment Dems who bowed before Bush for the duration to gain advantage. This election is so important to the country it has become a major issue more than a year before the election. It is no time for utopian fantasies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. If you think Sharpton speaks for your ideals
Then vote for him.

Personally my enemy is fascism and theocracy. I will not vote for a candidate that does not seem to see these twin dangers. Of the two I believe fascism is the more insideous. Major portions of the Democratic party have fallen to the corporate stranglehold.

You tell me which way the country is going to go when even the progressives are afraid to vote for progressive candidates. We are where we are now because of the cautious games plans of the DLC and those who have been shamed into renouncing the word liberal. How the heck are we supposed to take it back without stepping up and taking pride in it ourselves.

The middle ground is not a pack of leaders. They are looking for something to believe in. When we go courting the middle we dumb down the entire process. We no longer champion ideas. The middle will move to the ideas. But so many wish to kill progress by trying to play to the inactive crowd.

Many people are fearful of change. Progress embraces change. Some would say progress is by definition change. Thus attempting to appeal to the centerists that avoid change you kill progress. Give the people something to believe in and they will move from the center. Do nothing but play populist numbers games and we will lose relavance and the right with their anger and hatred of government will sway the center further to the right where the DLC will happily follow them to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Racism, of course
is no big deal?

Of course I am not going to vote for Sharpton, even though he posseses the best oratorical talents and speaks the truth.

He can't win.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. Why not Sharpton or CMB? I'll tell you why from my perspective
Because Al, sharp as he obviously is, has no track record of elected office. Any elected office. And CMB isn't putting out her policies in a clear enough way for me to see what they are. So that puts them below DK in my book.

I go on the basis of the issues and the record. Nothing else makes sense, to me.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
evworldeditor Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
61. Kucinich Comes to Omaha
Dennis Kucinich stopped briefly in Omaha last Friday. I was
able to record his speech, which was abbreviated to just 15
minutes because of a delayed flight.  

The RealAudio file is available at http://www.evworld.com

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Darth_Ole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. Dean has more experience and
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 10:14 AM by Darth_Ole
historically governors do well in Presidential elections. Of course that doesn't mean there's no chance at all that a Rep or Senator could win, but historically they don't.

Also, Kucinich is anti-choice and voted for the flag burning amendment.

I like Kucinich a lot for his liberalism, and Dean has his faults, too. But I am a Dean supporter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. And Dennis has more varied experience, plus more proven backbone
Moreover, governors don't do as well as you might think. Since 1900 we've had 8 governors, 4 senators, 3 congressmen, and 3 who'd previously never held elected office. Just eyeballing it, I doubt that would even come close to being statistically significant.

As progressives, we've had 1 governor (FDR), 2 senators (Truman, JFK), and 1 Congressman (LBJ). The other governors, possibly excepting TR, have been conservative if not downright reactionary.

T.Roosevelt - Gov, NY
Taft - Sec'y of War (no elected office)
Wilson - Gov, NJ
Harding - Senator, Ohio
Coolidge - Gov, Mass
Hoover - Sec'y of Commerce (no elected office)
FDR - Gov, NY
Truman - Senator, Mo
Eisenhower - General (no elected office)
JFK - Senator, Mass
LBJ - Congressman, Tex
Nixon - Senator, Cal; VP; no office
Ford - Congressman, Mich
Carter - Gov, Ga
Reagan - Gov, Cal
Bush I - Congressman, Tex
Clinton - Gov, Ark
Bush II - Gov, Tex
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
67. I love Dennis Kucinich, but am sticking with Dean.
DK is awesome on the issues, is a wonderful human being, and most importantly, Dennis really gives a shit. He wants to cut the defense budget and will leave the WTO as his first act in office.

As far as campaigning goes, DK still comes off as a fanatic during speeches, is working the media extremely poorly, isn't getting in anyone's face, and is having trouble organizing people and raising money.

While Dean is socially liberal and moderate on foreign and fiscal policy, he is a much better campaigner. In addition, as a doctor Dean is trained to make pragmatic decisions based on facts which emits an honesty that commands respect.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
76. Funny you should ask...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. no offense but Kucinich really changed his views on abortion a couple of
years back. I am glad this person has nice things to say about DK but Dean has waffled more too. Catholics arent fundie preachers neither, I am a Catholic and dont like some guy yelling at me to praise the lord.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
77. I support both of them
kind of...

I love DK, but he honestly doesn't have a prayer in Georgia. There are some things about Dean about which I'm not wild, but I think he's a damn sight better than any of the rest. I root for DK, because him being in the race acts as both progressive cover and a goad to Dean, but my efforts will go toward Dean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. thanks for the honesty uly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
82. very good question! Kucincih has Wellstone's Spirit all over him!
Edited on Mon Aug-04-03 07:21 PM by ElsewheresDaughter
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
83. Dean's feet are on the ground
I like the fact that he's pragmatic. His priority with health care, for example is to pass something that will get people covered. So, he offers a practical plan.
I prefer someone who is going to step up to the plate and get it done to someone who is going to offer up an ideal that sounds good but has NO chance of passing. Canadian style universal medicare is something Americans are not ready for.
Also, while it may be sincere, DK realized WAY too late that women are people too. It's one thing to have a religious faith another for it to be such a major influence on government policy votes. I don't trust a person who has allowed his religion to run his votes rather than simply inform them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeanMachine Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
86. Why? Because one's a winner and the other's a loser
President Kucinich? Please. The guy's a wiener.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. must...resist...urge...to...(urk)...flame.
N/T :-)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
corarose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
88. The Fake Media will tear Kucinich's looks apart
No, I am not being callus I am telling the truth. Kucinich is the best man for the job but the fake media will destroy him because he is not the best looking man.

Don't get me wrong Jr is the ugliest man on the face of the earth but they will tear Kuchinich hair cut apart.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ButterflyBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
89. cause unlike Dean
Kucinich really is McGovern II. He's a great guy but seeking an office he can't get is not what he should be attempting. He should be trying to rise in House leadership.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC