The three Americans killed in Iraq Monday were Baptist missionaries

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/03/15/national2225EST0824.DTL

Drive-by shooting in Iraq kills three American missionaries on humanitarian project

Three Americans killed in a shooting attack Monday in northern Iraq were Baptist missionaries on a humanitarian mission -- a water purification project for the troubled country, church officials and friends said.

The Southern Baptist International Mission Board identified the victims as Larry T. Elliott, 60, and Jean Dover Elliott, 58, of Cary, N.C.; and Karen Denise Watson, 38, of Bakersfield, Calif.

"They knew going into Iraq, they couldn't really share their Christian faith unless somebody asked them," said Larry Kingsley, a church deacon. "They were there in a humanitarian situation. They were people who just had a great heart for helping people out."

The Elliotts were scouting the best location for a water purification project, said Michelle DeVoss of Cary, whose First Baptist Church in the Raleigh suburb was home when the Elliotts returned from Honduras, where they had been missionaries since 1978.

more

[LoZoccolo]

1. Any minute now you'll see "good for them!"

Water purification or not. Then two hours from now the thread will be on Free Republic.

[FlemingsGhost]

3. Let me get the ball rolling.

Poor, dumb bastards.

In the end, the point of missionary work is to "spread the word." The fact that they are dead shows how much the word is welcomed there.


Water purification? Isn't that what Halliburton and the glorious imperial storm troopers are supposed to be doing?

Flame on...

(on edit: typo)

[outinforce]

70. I Could Be Wrong Here

I could be wrong here (I really don't know that much about what Christians are required to believe), but I thought that the point of missionary work was to do what Jesus told his followers to do.

Didn't Jesus say, at some point or another, that it was important to feed the hungry, visit the sick, give water to the thirsty?

I could be wrong, but I think he said something like those who did such things to the least of his brothers and sisters did it to him, and they would have the honor of sitting with him on the right side of God.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I had heard something like that.

[Chovexani]

84. You're right, but...

Too often, at least with fundie missionaries, that humanitarian work comes with heavy strings attached. I don't think "you don't get help unless you come to our one room holy roller church" is quite what JC had in mind when he said to take care of the least of these.

With some of these people (and I mean some, not all missionaries are like this), food, clothing and water are secondary to "preachin' the Word". When I was a born again Christian I was in my church youth group and before we went to go volunteer at the church's social programs, etc. we were always told our paramount responsibility was to "get people to a saving knowledge of Christ". If we had to dangle food and blankets in front of them, so be it.

It's really very mercenary the way these people operate. It's one of the many reasons I took the red pill and got out of fundie Christianity.

[FlemingsGhost]

87. God gave us the truth. The devil gave us religion.

All you say is true, but I think Jesus also encouraged folks to find the spirit of God within the core of their very own being. No mention of books, idolitry or... cult of personalities. (It's interesting that he is worshipped in such a way.) Trust me, Missionaries aren't teaching that to the "heathens."

Sermon on the Mount, I believe. But I could be wrong.

[hexola]

4. FreeRepublic Broke the story...

...early today...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1098206/posts

[LoZoccolo]

28. Pleasantly surprised I was technically wrong.

Could have been self-fulfilling, though.

[Malva Zebrina]

well, the Southern Baptists did insult Muslims I believe, along with Jews

and Hindues as well as other religions. They arrogantly put out their pamphlets encouraging members to pray for the unconverted peoples on their Highest holy day. These pamphlets were intolerant and bigoted.

Here is a press release from Interfaith Alliance re a speech approved by the SBC delivering a direct insult to Islam. This is a press release and as such I guess it is fine to print the whole thing

For Immediate Release
Friday, June 14, 2002

Contact:
Melissa Schwartz, [phone], 103
Cell: [phone]

The Interfaith Alliance Responds to Divisive Comments by the Southern
Baptist Convention Attacking Islam

WASHINGTON - The Interfaith Alliance today spoke out in response to remarks
made by a Southern Baptist minister that attacked Islam and its foundations,
citing the attacks as an attempt to divide the religious community.

As reported by the Associated Press (6/12/02), Rev. Jerry Vines, a former
Southern Baptist convention president, told guests at a pastors' conference
on Monday that many of this country's problems can be blamed on religious
pluralism. Pluralists would have us to believe that Islam is just as good
as Christianity, but I'm here to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that Islam
is not just as good as Christianity.

Vines, pastor of First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Fla., reportedly told
several thousand delegates at the gathering in St. Louis that Islam was
founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives - and his
last one was a 9-year-old girl. And I will tell you Allah is not Jehovah
either. Jehovah's not going to turn you into a terrorist that'll try to bomb
people and take the lives of thousands and thousands of people.

Dr. David Currie, Executive Director of Texas Baptists Committed and a board
member with The Interfaith Alliance responded to Vines remarks with
dismay, As a Southern Baptist, I find Rev. Vines words to be grossly
inappropriate. They demonstrate insensitivity to people of the Muslim faith
and to those Christians worldwide who are attempting to share Christ in
Muslim countries. It is never appropriate to share Christ by insulting
another religion.

Rev. Vinesstatement opposing religious pluralism reflect a further
distancing of Southern Baptist leaders from historical Baptist traditions.
Historically, Baptists have been passionate supporters of religious liberty
and its corollaries of church/state separation and have had an appreciation
of pluralism, said the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy, Executive Director of The
Interfaith Alliance, practicing Baptist pastor for over 40 years and former
member of the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention. This
kind of comment from a religious leader perpetuates the image of
Christianity as a divisive force in our society rather than as a healing and
reconciling force.

I think it is always appropriate for people to speak of their understanding
of God, but it is offensive and audacious to presume an ability to define
someone elses deity, added Gaddy.

The Rev. Jack Graham, elected the conventions president on Tuesday, has
rejected calls to repudiate the remarks, saying the Rev. Jerry Vines
comments about Islam were accurate.

###

The Interfaith Alliance (TIA) is a non-partisan clergy-led grassroots
organization dedicated to promoting the positive and healing role of
religion in the life of the nation and challenging those who manipulate
religion to promote a narrow, divisive agenda.

Melissa Schwartz
Media Relations Director
The Interfaith Alliance
1012 14th Street, NW
Washington, DC 20005
[phone], ext. 103
www.interfaithalliance.org

---

The behavior is consistent, in my observation over time. Insult those you wish to convert to Christianity, in this case specifically Southern Baptist, and then cry persecution and assume martyrdom when one is hurt , injured, attacked or killed.

[rinsd]

51. Toxic Thread

"Then two hours from now the thread will be on Free Republic."

More and more, each is a shadowy reflection of the other.

The right couldn't have done better job with a craven caricature of liberals than those here have done themselves.

[QC]

69. You got that right.

Sometimes this place is enough like Freak Republic to give me the willies.

[Djinn]

2. missionaries or humanitarians

not that either deserved to die but usually people only call actual missionaries, missionaries. Humanitarians tend to shy away from a word with ugly colonial connotations. Also why would a church group be scouting a location for a water purification plant - presumably the plants already there would good places to start? and I wasn't aware any contract had gone out to NGO's yet?

Like I said even IF they were just there to prolytise I'm not saying they should have been killed or even that they shouldn't have been there and I'm certainly NOT saying "good for them" - although why anyone cares what the freeps say I'll never know, they're clearly the dregs of the gene pool and are unlikely to be converted regardless of what is said on DU? - but something about this story is a bit iffy.

EDIT: Thought so - they were according to their group "researching needs for humanitarian projects" which is a kind of vague mission statement for people in a war zone...a little digging about theior organisation comes up with this:

While more than 5,000 people groups still have little or no access to the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ, Southern Baptist missionaries and their overseas partners also opened work among 192 new people groups during 2003, said Avery Willis, the board's senior vice president for overseas operations.

Those new works included the engagement of 146 unreached people groups with a total population of more than 359 million.

They were flat out missionaries and while no-one deserves to die you'd have to say they were f*&king stupid to put themselves in that position...flame away

[madrchsod]

5. what a shame

i`m sure they believed in what they were doing and they died for it.i`m not really sure if their lives were wasted but maybe their lives were unfulfilled.

[mmm]

7. 3 lives wasted

[Malva Zebrina]

56. As Southern Baptists they believed that Muhammed was an evil man

who incited violence.

But at the very same time the President of their Convention approved an anti-Islamic convention speech delivered by the senior pastor of Jacksonville's First Baptist Church, who, without blinking, said: ''Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives -- and his last one was a 9-year-old girl."

http://gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/events/061302ev.htm

With bigotry like this, although I do not sanction murder who can blame the Muslims for resenting Christians? And for acting out against them when they attempt to convert their children to Christianity?

[markses]

6. I think I'd drive around unescorted in Iraq

Oh, for about $1 million a week.

Missionaries, humanitarians, or whatever - this ain't fucking Disneyland over there. And shit, for all we know they were shot by some straight up jackers (though the busy street in the middle of town, surely, makes that unlikely).

I think we can say - without any judgment - that this is what happens when you take colonial territories.

Condolences to their families.

[Jacobin]

8. But this is not a crusade. Really, its not one. I promise. Its really

really not a .......

[KG]

9. if you're an uninvited foriegner in iraq and don't want to get shot at

then you need to get the fuck out of that country. if you're an uninvited foreigner, you need to get the fuck out of that country.

[nayt]

10. funny

people with similar sentiments about this country are called racist and xenophobic.

[Jacobin]

11. A slight distinction

We invaded their country and are attempting to occupy it at gunpoint.

[Djinn]

12. US isn't, as yet, a war zone

Personally I think missionaries should always and everywhere mind their own business, but to fly into Iraq (particularly Northern Iraq)right now as first an American and second a Christian missionary well my grandmother would say don't whine about the heat if you JUMPED INTO the fire. And besides were they actually targetted or were they just another casualty in Iraq? in which case I'll save my sympathies for the Iraqi's who have no choice but to be there

[KG]

13. there is no similarity to construe.

those who take part in and illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of a sovereign foriegn nation have nobody to blame but themselves for any adverse consequences.

[Aidoneus]

14. immigrants = occupation forces?

interesting..

[nayt]

16. occupation forces?

and a couple of 60-year old humanitarian aid workers = occupation forces?

these aren't coalition troops we're talking about.

[Jesus H. Christ]

20. Did they support the war?

Did they rush to Iraq to convert the filthy nonbelievers?

[nayt]

22. did they?

apparently you have more information on this than is in the story. care to share your source?

[oldcoot]

55. Some more information about missionaries

For an article that might provide more insight into missionary work in Iraq and why some of us might be suspicious of the missionaries, see http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/27/wirq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/27/ixhome.html .

[iverglas]

74. and *that*

was from a right-wing media outlet, until recently a flagship of the Conrad Black organization: the Telegraph.

"Southern Baptists have prayed for years that Iraq would somehow be opened to the gospel," his appeal began. That "open door" for Christians may soon close.

Hmm. And that door was opened for them by ... why, it couldn't have been the US government's illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of Iraq, could it??

The US Agency for International Development has said that the government cannot rein in private charities. "Imagine what the US Congress would say to us," said a spokesman in April.

Hmm. The US government, as the occupying power in a country, can't control who enters that country, and for what purpose? Well who *does* have that authority? -- that authority, to control who crosses its borders, being one of the prime markers of a sovereign state, after all. And if it ain't the US government, did somebody ask whoever it is whether they wanted Southern Baptist missionaries there? Like, did they get a visa from somebody? I think Iraqis probably need visas to enter the US ...

Southern Baptists from North Carolina visited Iraq in October to help hand out 45,000 boxes of donated food. One of the team, Jim Walker, told IMB's Urgent News bulletin that he met village children "starved of attention and I could tell some of them have not eaten well. But their biggest need is to know the love of Christ."

And of course, he's not doing anything to fill that "need". Noooo.

Mr Hanna concedes his new Iraqi friends were possibly drawn by the novelty of meeting Americans. "But you don't discount that, you use it as an opportunity to tell them about Jesus. Last time we only took 8,000 Arabic Bibles to Iraq. In future missions the goal is one million."

Yeah, just like you use food as an opportunity to tell starving people things they didn't ask you to tell them about.

If I were Iraqi, I might very well be asking these people "who invited you?" And I'd think it very obvious that the US government, which does indeed have the power to control who enters the country, which Iraqis certainly don't have, is the answer to that question.

The missionaries pose a dilemma for President George W Bush.

And obviously he's the one who can choose between the horns of that dilemma, and has done just that by allowing them access to Iraq that they were denied before the invasion and occupation.

I'm sure it's not difficult for Iraqis to see whose work the Southern Baptists in their midst are doing.

.

[Sandpiper]

107. Well, as southern baptists

They were representatives of an organization that advocated the invasion of Iraq.

[Malva Zebrina]

57. Yup--Southern Baptist Convention was the only religion that supported

the illegal invasion of Iraq.

[Djinn]

23. sorry NOT humanitarian workers

you can't just turn up in Iraq and want to do good things. They are not a humanitarian organistaion - the water purification thing was a pretty obvious give away to me - they are SPECIFICALLY a missionary organisation - that is their raison d'etre

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oldcoot]

62. Army chaplain

Wasn't there an army chaplain who would not allow soldiers to wash up in his water tank unless they were willing to be baptized?

[DuctapeFatwa]

83. Yes. I don't have a link, he was interviewed on CNN a while ago

It seems like pretty standard missionary practice, that's where the term "rice Christians" came from, missionaries in Asia who would give starving people rice if they attended services and prayed to Jesus.

[outinforce]

71. Outrageous!

Do you happen to have any fact -- or anything at all -- to support your absolutely outrageous assertion these missionaries would deny a glass of water to someone unless they converted?

[eissa]

73. Well, sort of

after WWI, the region of N. Iraq, SE Turkey, and NE Iran saw many missionaries. This was a time of complete devastation in that area, with many Christians having lost their lives during the Ottoman genocide of the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks. Many of these missionaries offered blankets, food, even educational opportunities abroad for the converts, many of whom left their respective Orthodox churches to join. Can hardly blame them, but I remember even up until recent times referring (quite innocently) to ME Christians belonging to Presbyterian, Episcopalian, etc. faiths in a term that translates to "paid for."

[outinforce]

76. Thanks for the History Lesson

And your point is -- what?

And I must be terribly dense, because I can't see how this lesson in history related to anything these three missionaries who were killed did.

An outrageous implication was made that these three missionaries withheld water from thirsty folks until the thirsty people converted to Christianity.

[iverglas]

78. nah, here's your problem

An outrageous implication was made that these three missionaries withheld water from thirsty folks until the thirsty people converted to Christianity.

No such implication was made.

See how easy your problems are solved? All you have to do is stop dreaming them up, and they're all gone.

.

[Aidoneus]

103. they followed the invaders, and worked with and alongside them

There was obviously no distinction drawn on the ground.

If they really were decent people then it is unfortunate, but they should not swarm into the occupied lands behind the invaders.

[PurityOfEssence]

15. I wonder what Boykin has to say?

The real issue is how will Americans deal with this. If it's polarized and made into some kind of religious war, it will have to be done by our side.

It was stupid to allow them in, and it shows the true agenda of this administration: world domination under a fundamentalist Christian Theocracy. Perhaps Junior and the higher-ups would wish they weren't there, but they've made their pact with the beasts, and this is the outcome.

[QC]

17. Interesting how there's been absolutely no criticism here

of the people who killed them.

Interesting, but not at all surprising.

[nayt]

18. well you know

it was their own fault. they were asking for it, just like all those rape victims who dress like prostitutes and hang out in the wrong part of town.

[Djinn]

25. No maybe

given that we're all supposed to be progressives here and not freepers that was taken as a given.

this argument was used during the protests against the Iraq war, some people felt we couldn't criticise the "coalition" unless we also ran through a long list of Saddam's crimes.

BTW as to sources - all it take is a minute amount of research - they were representing the Southern Baptist International Mission Board - have a look at what they're about:

...begun as a Southern Baptist effort to evangelize the world by A.D. 2000. From 1981 to 1992, Keith Parks led the IMB to adopt new, innovative strategies to reach restricted nations and unreached peoples.

they are not, were not and never have been "humanitarians"

[ProdigalJunkMail]

45. you know, it is possible to be both

a humanitarian and a missionary. While the goal of a missionary is to present the gospel, there are also a lot of missionaries who do good work just for the sake of the people for whom they are performing the service out of the call of Christ to love your neighbor...

theProdigal

[Djinn]

92. of course it is

however - this organisation - has one goal and that is to convert

[ProdigalJunkMail]

97. believe it or not MOST christians

would have a desire to convert...at least if they believe that Christ delivered the Great Commission as described in the book of Acts. They certainly may go about it differently, but most christians ARE christians because they think they have the right idea about God and how to have a relationship with the Deity...and while many religions do NOT poselytize...christianity on the whole, does in one way or another...

theProdigal

[Djinn]

110. and beleive it or not

some people find other people pushing their religious beliefs to be offensive in the extreme. Especially if they already have religious beliefs they're quite happy with.

Some people also resent missionaries thinly veiling themselves with charity work when that is NOT their intention. The people killed were not bringing anything of value to the Iraqi people they had NO qualifications or even experience in the field of sanitation or water infrastructure, the claims that they weer "scouting for suitable water purification locations" is patently transperant even if one DOESN'T look into the beliefs and STATED goals of the group these people were with.

I don't and never have thought it is a good thing that these three (or 4) are dead - but where are the posts detailing individual Iraqi deaths, or even individual US soldiers deaths.

Iraq is a very dangerous place right now - if you have no valid reason to be there don't go.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

111. no valid reason is where you miss the point

to these people, the work that they have chosen IS a valid reason. I can appreciate that some people do not share their faith or lack thereof. I can appreciate that some people are offended when someone does share some of what they believe.

Do you know these people? Do you have any idea of what their qualifications were or were not? I can grant you that the goal of mission work is to share the gospel...but to say that nothing good comes of it shows a lack of understanding and practical experience.

And please don't think I am suggesting that you wished this ill to befall these people. I know you did not do that nor would you! And I couldn't agree more that there should be more outcry for those who have perished and those who undoubtedly will. But these people knew that Iraq was a dangerous place and they chose to follow something they believed strongly in...and that is something that can be admired even if you believe strongly that their faith is misplaced and their reason for work is misrepresented.

theProdigal

[Djinn]

119. NO I Don't know them personally

however - I did do a little research and it only took 5 minutes (nice to be getting my money's worth from my Comm's degree)

I've posted this several times now - the group that sent them do not try to claim the "water" story. The group that sent them has ONE goal and one goal only - To Proslytise. Look them up it wont take you very long to find out what this lot is about.

I have no problem with people who happento be Christian, Muslim, Hindu whatever, going to underdeveloped or war torn countries to help out with education, infrastructure, health etc in fact have done it myself (though I'm an atheist, there where many in the group who were Christians and were fantastic dedicated NON preaching people) but that WAS not the aim of these people.

And I can not admire them for missionary work when it is purely with the aim to convert - had they also been there to do charity work I would have admired them, but they weren't.

I have to say I also find some of the posts here a little close to being saying they deserved it - that I don't agree with, personally if someone is trying to convert me I'll tell them to leave me alone not kill them - BUT then again I live in peaceful Australia, my country hasn't been invaded and the people trying to convert me wouldn't be representing the nation that occupied mine.

[markses]

27. Nice analogy

I would say it's more like a guy who pays to get into a prison cell block when he does not have to go to prison at all, and gets dressed for all the world like a sexy, sexy woman, then flits from con to con saying "Hey, big boy!"

Yes, you feel bad that our naive and reckless friend got raped, and you think the rapists are nasty, horrible people, but you still think "Jeez, buster. What the fuck were you thinking?!?"

You see, my reductive moralist friend, one can hold both these ideas in ones head at the same time.

Nevertheless, I'm merely speaking for myself here. I'm sure some folks on this thread say "Oh, well. Fuck with tha bull, etc."

[Art_from_Ark]

29. Maybe they fancied themselves as modern-day Daniels

walking into the lion's den in Iraq, that is, the modern-day Babylon.

[Malva Zebrina]

59. Sorry--they set themselves up for persecution

by issueing pamphlets urging the conversion of Muslims and had the arrogance to criticize, religiously of course, the Islamic religion and then the unmitigaed gaul to issue the pamphlets on the high holy days of the Islam religion.

They also did the same for Jews and for Hindues.

[iverglas]

75. I just dunno

it was their own fault. they were asking for it, just like all those rape victims who dress like prostitutes and hang out in the wrong part of town.

Can you explain how the women in your analogy are actually analogous to operatives of an occupying force that has invaded your country and killed a whole lot of your fellow citizens?

And can you explain how a bunch of warmongering citizens of a foreign country (ardent supporters of a religious outfit that supported the war in question) who are present in your country without the permission of your country or its citizens, but with the permission of said occupying force (and plainly engaged in the furtherance of that occupying force's broad objectives), are analogous to practitioners of the art of going about their own business?

If you can, I might get your point. So far, I don't.

.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[markses]

50. Iraq was not "war ravged since the beginning of time"

Prior to the Persian Gulf war - even with the Iran war - Iraq was one of the most technologically developed countries in the region. It had the best medical care outside of Israel and the lowest infant mortality rate. The cause of anger here is not taht old. Say, about a year old this week.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

68. Oh, I can understand the hostility. Believe me.

That was not my point. My point was that somehow, in all the usual discussion of just how awful those Christians are, the point got lost that these people were murdered.

I don't care for proselytizing either, but when the Mormons come to my door, as they do from time to time, I don't blow them away. As someone who believes in free speech, I believe that they have every right to try to tell me about their religion and I have every right to tell them I'm not interested.

Neither do I like fundamentalists, but I can't resist pointing out that these Christian fundamentalists who believe that their way is the only way were most likely killed by Muslim fundamentalists who believe that their way is the only way.

[Nihil]

115. Really?

> ... but I can't resist pointing out that these Christian
> fundamentalists who believe that their way is the only way were most
> likely killed by Muslim fundamentalists who believe that their way is
> the only way.

And the evidence that supports your irresistable urge is ...?

In terms of the religious breakdown of Saddam's Iraq and the civilian
casualties, it's more likely that the white American missionaries were
killed by someone who lost a civilian friend or relative to the actions
of other white Americans (and black Americans and whatever other kinds
you care to include in the principally American invasion force).

Modern-day Daniels? Probably ... they show about as much sense as any
of the nutcases that jump into a lion enclosure in the "certainty" that
their god will protect them.

Guess you'd be one of the people that still blames the lion?

Nihil

[NNN0LHI]

19. I really think that before the "Shock and Awe" began people like this...

...were welcomed in Iraq? I may be wrong, but I had thought Iraq was one of the only Muslim country that allowed missionaries? I may be wrong and someone knows more about this?

Condolences to their families.

Don

[Hekate]

21. Victims of the Bush "not a crusade"

This is really sad. These folks were truly trying to do a good deed, and they were in very dangerous territory.

I think DUers have known for about a year that the Bush administration is actively encouraging missionaries to be the bearers of humanitarian aid to Iraqis. Our government, our money, his religion -- entering a war-zone with only their good intentions for protection.

Just more evidence of Bushite's cynical manipulation of his base.

Hekate

[Djinn]

26. only if you consider

trying to convert people as a good deed - I don't have an overwhelming opinion on that as such but I think you'd have to pretty stupid to do it Iraq right now, not that anyone should be killed for stupidity but these missionaries weren't targetted - many people are dying in Iraq right now for being in the wrong place when a bomb goes off - especially IRAQIS.

They were missionaries - the organisation they were with makes NO BONES ABOUT IT

[Hekate]

30. I'm not that keen on proselytizing, but I think they were used

I think Bush-Cheney-Rove Inc. simultaneously pander to their religious base and manipulate it. I suspect these people may not have known how hostile the territory is toward Christian missionaries -- there's even been talk of a move to "reach out" to the Christian minority in Iraq, the Chaldeans who have been there from the beginning, and probably aren't too overjoyed to have Southern Baptists (a) stirring up the Muslims they have to live with, and (b) bringing the real-true-Southern Baptist word among the Chaldeans. In any case, this is not a good time or a good place to be a missionary, and I am sorry they lost their lives finding that out.

Hekate

[eissa]

58. YES, thank you!

You nailed it. Whenever these crusaders come on "humanitarian" missions, they inevitably cause more harm than good. The native Christians, Assyrians and Chaldeans, end up paying for it by (1) losing members to these evangelicals (since they can never successfully convert the Muslims), and (2) being used as scapegoats for the adventures of western powers.

I'm also extremely upset by the fact that these "humanitarians" are able to enter the country so easily. I have a friend in Qatar working with the UN for the past year. He has siblings in Iraq but has been unable to enter the country because of the travel ban the US has implemented. So a native Iraqi in a neighboring country cannot enter Iraq to visit his family, but missionaries from across the world are.

[iverglas]

77. they're not that naive

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/27/wirq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/27/ixhome.html

(linked by someone else earlier, thanks)

Jon Hanna, an evangelical from Ohio who has recently returned from Iraq, applied for a new passport to travel there, describing himself as a humanitarian worker. "I was worried the US authorities might try to stop us, might be worried we were going to start a riot with our Bibles."

As noted in the other reply to your post, the US govt does have, and does exercise, the power to prohibit entry to Iraq.

Muslims are hard converts, American missionaries admit. The large organisations have experts trained in refuting Muslim teachings that Jesus is just another prophet.

Before going to Iraq, Mr Hanna studied Christian training manuals and attended a seminar for missionaries to the Arab world.

This is big business, make no mistake, and it is not operated by unsophisticated naifs.

In any case, this is not a good time or a good place to be a missionary, and I am sorry they lost their lives finding that out.

They lost their lives because they were present as uninvited operatives of an occupying force in a country that is being denied all of the universally recognized prerogatives of a sovereign state, including the ability to control who crosses its borders.

The can say they were doing their god's bidding all they want, but they were obviously, and entirely accurately, perceived by many in Iraq as doing the bidding of Bush and the entire anti-Islam, anti-Arab, anti-human monster he represents. They're no more than one tentacle of that monster, as what their church does proves.

And, to respond to something else said just below, there really just is not an analogy to uninvited Mormons on one's doorstep and uninvited Southern Baptists in one's country, society and culture.

In fact, one is quite free to prohibit Mormons from darkening one's doorstep in North America -- myself, I served the local JoHos with notice that if they did this, they would be trespassers and would be dealt with accordingly. Their right of "free speech" simply, really, does not include a right to enter on my property to speak at me when I have not invited them to do so.

And it really and truly is the right of a sovereign state to deny admission to anyone who wishes to enter into its society to speak at the members of that society when that society has not invited them to do so. USAmericans', or anyone else's, right of free speech simply does not operate to grant them access to somebody else's society outside their own borders. That's what visas are for.

.

[Malva Zebrina]

60. Sorry, but I cannot buy that they were doing a "good deed"

they were financed by the Southern Baptist Conventionthe only religion with any significant amount of members that approved of the illegal occupation and the killing of thousands of Iraqi people, and if the faith based charities bill ever gets passed, we the taxpayers will be paying our hard earned money to fund this facist like missionary activity where intolerance rules and disrespect is the mode.

[Trajan]

24. As a dedicated Atheist ...

I am heartbroken that 3 innocents were killed in cold blood ...

Even though I dont believe in a religion, I, as a secular humanist, recognize and applaud the establishment of religious humanism ...

NO innocent deserves to be killed ...

Including innocent Iraqis ...

Including innocent Americans ...

[opihimoimoi]

31. As the great George Carlin sez "Religion has gotten more people killed

than all other reasons for going to war".

These guys knew the risks and Voila, 3 innocent victims. I feel for their families and hope they died without too much pain/suffering.

I just wish the others realize this is not the time for this kind of prothesizing activity.

[spinbaby]

32. Four victims now

On the news this morning they said a fourth had died.

[hatrack]

37. Thank you, Trajan

Maybe they were actively trying to convert Iraqis - we don't know if they were.

Maybe they were in Iraq solely to improve water service and sanitation services.

And maybe they were fools for to take the risks they did by going to Iraq.

Whatever the case, I'm not going to clap my hands about five people gunned down in broad daylight - missionaries, soldiers, civilians, whoever they might have been. There's more than enough pain and blood to go around in Iraq.

[Djinn]

91. Nobody is "clapping hands"

we've just pointed out a few facts, they were not on a water sanitation mission that much is admitted by their own group. Their group IS PURELY a missionary group. Their group SUPPOTED the war.

And if you go into a war zone you might get killed, and that some of us will save our sympathies for those who have no choice but to be there ie the Iraqis and the folks working for ACTUAL humanitarian organisations. To imply that any of us are "clapping our hands" over needless death is offensive

[iverglas]

98. was gonna say it myself

To imply that any of us are "clapping our hands" over needless death is offensive

You betcha.

But to suggest that people who enter someone else's country/society/culture without asking permission, and behave like agents of an occupying power, might expect not to be welcomed with open arms and in fact to be treated like agents of an occupying power, is really just to state the obvious.

And if you go into a war zone you might get killed

They didn't just "go into a war zone". They went into another people's country/society/culture with the permission of the power occupying and colonizing that country/society/culture, without asking the permission of the people whose country/society/culture they were themselves effectively attempting to colonize.

I won't very often applaud *anyone* getting killed, or say that *anyone* "deserves" to be killed.

And I also won't get manipulated into picking sides in a dispute when it is apparent, or even possible, that both sides are obnoxious.

But I'm not going to rush off to condemn an action taken by members of an invaded, occupied and colonized people against their invaders, occupiers and colonizers, either.


I have to wonder why it seems so unquestionable to so many people that these bozos should have been able to just wander into Iraq.

Can Iraqi religious sects send missionaries to the US without so much as a by your leave, let alone a visa? Does the US not have a border that it guards rather jealously, and require things like bona fide reasons for visiting, from people seeking to cross that border? Does "freedom of speech" mean that no country can impose border controls to restrict entry by people claiming that the purpose of their visit is to deliver humanitarian aid when it is really to proselytize -- or even to restrict access by people who admit their real purpose?

They say "bring the story of Jesus"; I say colonize. And even though I might not agree with anything else that some Iraqis who object to their presence there might think or do, I have no problem concurring in objecting to their presence there. I would have absolutely no problem with a sovereign Iraq keeping them out. And I have large problems with the present occupying power letting them in without consulting, or considering the wishes of, the people whose country it is occupying.

Are Iraq and Iraqis really just fair game for anybody with a plane ticket? Or maybe just for Bush supporters with an agenda?

.

[Malva Zebrina]

61. Apparently, though, the Southern Baptist Convention did approve of

killing Iraqi civilians and approved of the slaughter in Iraq. There wre the only religion to do so.

[hexola]

33. Just your average American FOOLS...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1098199/posts

[revcarol]

34. If they had been members of the American Friends Service Committee

or some other truly HUMANITARIAN organization which happened to be Christian, their presence there would probably have been welcomed by the locals.

However, no details about their bios even MENTION expertise in setting up water purification plants or experience in humanitarian projects.

So I would go along with the fact that they were ONLY missionaries.Iraq might have gotten some kind of portable water purification machine to act as a temporary water cleaner, but a PLANT? NO.

That said, they did not deserve to die. Nor did our soldiers, nor did the Italian soldiers, nor did the British soldiers, nor did the Iraqis who were killed in the bombing, nor did the innocents killed by our soldiers every day...

UN in, US out!!

[markses]

35. I doubt it

They were killed because they were "Europeans" in a car. Wouldn't matter if they were Friends, Baptists, Halliburtians, or the remaining members of the Glen Miller orchestra.

[ithacan]

36. they had NO business being there

Seriously, what is wrong with these people?

Are they so mentally unstable and unbalanced that they have to go around telling people that their religious beliefs are wrong? That their own religion is the only true one?

To me it sounds like a mental illness, this whole missionary thing...

[Malva Zebrina]

63. If you can find the pamphlets on a google search that were issued

by the Southern Baptist Convention that advocated conversion and praying for the conversion of Jews, (distributed on the high holy days of the Jews) or the conversion of the Muslims, (distributed on the high holy days of Islam), and the Hindues,( distributed on the high holy days of the Hindues), you may have some insight as to the hubris and arrogance of this particular branch of this religion. With sixteen million members, this is not to be ignored as a taunt , an intolerance, and a slap in the face.

[catmandu57]

38. At the risk of being flamed

FUCK A BUNCH OF BABTISTS. Especially southern babtists, they're one step away from the taliban muslims. If they had their way, black americans would still be slaves, women and children would be seen not heard, be considered property to do what you would with.

They were missionary's, plain and simple, there'll be much wailing and mourning for the fallen brethren doing god's work, fuck a bunch of babtists.

[Nlighten1]

39. Yep.

Southern Baptists are, hands down, the worst sort of evangelical morons around.

[Malva Zebrina]

64. yes--and my personal opinion is that they are a cult

Having said that, I think people should be very aware that if faith based charities ever goes through, the SBC will be first on the list. The overthrow of the previous SBC by a virtual coup within it's ranks was overseen by none other than Chuck Colsen. Jimmy Carter, wisely resigned from this fascist like sect of the Christian religion, who also have tried to keep women subjugated, barefoot and pregnant. They claim 16 million members. That is quite a number who are intolerant, bigoted Christians and who will, if the bill goes through, be using our money to fund their missionary activities.

[Sandpiper]

109. Unless someone's lived in the bible belt

They can't really appreciate the hubris, arrogance, and vitriol of the Southern Baptist Convention.

This organization has zero tolerance or room for any world view that diverges from their own. They're easily one of the most negative forces in our society.

[stepnw1f]

40. Whenever I hear or Read

that Missionarys are trying to do good things around the world, I get sick. The truth is that they are a MISSIONARY and their mission is to spread their ideology around the world, ussually in very impoverished regions. Missionarys assume an advantage of spreading their beliefs to a desperate people. Its a very underhanded way of converting folks. It's sad and pathetic that these three people wasted their lives the way they did.

[hexola]

41. No wonder Muslims hate us!

These people don't realize the degree that they represent America and Americans...they have led Muslims to believe that most Americans are a bunch of proselytizing, self rightgeous, do-gooders...when in fact, they are the minority...

These missionaries owe every Amercian an apology. Especially the soldiers who had to risk their lives in this incident.

[varun]

54. exactly...

...no matter how much "good work" they are doing, they are actually causing much damage by eradicating indigenous religions...

[Malva Zebrina]

65. and more than not, it is also involved with their own redemption

if they do these good works and rack up a number of conversions why they will get a better seat in the heaven, watching the others who were not converted, burn to death in hell or the Lake of Fire. That is the only recreation I have ever seen attributed to any activity in heaven posted by Christians. Other than that, apparently from what I observe, there is nothing else to do in heaven.

[outinforce]

72. Let Me See If I Understand You

You would prefer that people go do missionary work (which, as you define it is spreading their ideology around the world) only in rich, well-to-d0, affluent areas, is that right?

Do I also understand you to be saying that it is somehow wrong or underhanded for religious people to feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, and to help the most desperate people living among us and all over the globe?

I don't know about you, but if religious people were to stop going into the most desperate, the most economically poor areas of the world, and only went to rich, well-to-do areas, I would call the religious people hypocrites.

Do you think that these three people wasted their lives the way they did because they were trying to provide safe, clean water to an area of the world that doesn't have it? Or is it that they were doing so as part of what they might have felt was a command given to them by their deity?

If the y had been doing the same thing as Peace Corps volunteers, would you also feel that they wasted their lives?

[hexola]

82. Like drug addicts...

...You would prefer that people go do missionary work (which, as you define it is spreading their ideology around the world) only in rich, well-to-d0, affluent areas, is that right?

I dont really care where they do it - as long as they don't have to be rescued by Amercian military...

...that it is somehow wrong or underhanded for religious people to feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, and to help the most desperate people living among us and all over the globe?

Wouldn't it just make more sense for you to deal with "people living among us" and let your bretheren deal with the rest of the globe...as far as I know Christianity is a world religion...not indigenous to the United States.

Do you think that these three people wasted their lives the way they did because they were trying to provide safe, clean water to an area of the world that doesn't have it? Or is it that they were doing so as part of what they might have felt was a command given to them by their deity?

I think even worse...they do it for some feeling of personal satisfaction...They take that special feeling of having saved a soul and use it like a drug. They will go anywhere and do anything to get it. And like drug addicts they end up dead.

If they had been doing the same thing as Peace Corps volunteers, would you also feel that they wasted their lives?

Yes.

[outinforce]

85. Please Excuse Me

Please excuse me for saying this, but I would never want to be as harsh and judgmental as your post seems (to me, anyway).

I really do not know you, and I know how it is often easy to mis-interpet what people write on threads such as this.

But it does seem to me that you have judged -- and judged quite harshly -- the people who were killed in Iraq.

You have said that their motivation for going to Iraq and was a selfish one -- their own personal satisfaction. And your harshness does not stop there. You go on to say that their personal satisfaction comes not from helping others (a feeling that most people get when they do something good for another human being). No, you judge them and say that their motivation was the sense of personal satisfaction that you think they would have as a result of having saved a soul. It apparently escapes you that people -- even deeply religious people -- sometimes do good and decent things because they are commanded to love their neighbors as themselves.

Yet you condemn them even more. You say that they take this sense of personal satisfaction that you think that they get and use it like a drug.

If that is indeed so, I wish more people would ingest the drug of helping others in need simply because the other people are in need. It is my view that the world could use lots and lots more people like that.

"And like drug addicts they end up dead."

I try to have compassion for any person whose addiction to a substance causes their lives to end. I have know people like that, and it is always sad. Again, please excuse me for saying this, but it almost sounds as though you are saying that drug addicts -- and these missionaries -- deserve what happened to them, and that the world is a much better place without them.

I hope I never view the world that way.

[hexola]

89. They are really more like Pedophiles...

I don't think I'm condemming them...just portraying their motivation in less glamorous, more human way.

Be honest...Don't you think it the whole "water pump" issue is a front for them to have a chance to save some souls?

Yet you condemn them even more. You say that they take this sense of personal satisfaction that you think that they get and use it like a drug.

Your right - I should have said the ABUSE it like a drug. Use and abuse is a fine line. Abusers who become addicted to drugs are driven to great lengths to get the drug - even put themselves in danger. They really lose perspective.

I'm not singling these folks out for any special contempt...I have have the same issues with all missionary-type folks...living or dead. Their deaths have made it topical.

[Djinn]

95. Stop adding falsehoods

these people had absolutely no expertise or even experience in water purification. Prior to our bombing of Iraq during Gulf War 1 and it's sequel the Iraqi's had some of THE best plants, equipment and expertise they didn't need a bunch of totally unknowledgeable Southern Baptists to work on this. CHeck out what this group says about themselves it's MISSIONARY all the way - NOTHING TO DO WITH WATER PURIFICATION!

[Nihil]

42. Try the Biblical approach?

How about we play the "turn the other cheek" card and send the Iraqis
some more?

:evilgrin:

"Plenty more where they came from Dude ..."

[stepnw1f]

44. I Believe These People Are Mentally Ill

They need scientific help... and medication.

[Bandit]

43. There are a lot of Christians in Iraq ~ In fact Saddam's closest adviser

was a Christian. The one thing about Iraq before invasion it was not based on any religion and there was freedom of religion. I think that will go by the wayside now though.

[hexola]

46. Are you sure?

...The one thing about Iraq before invasion it was not based on any religion and there was freedom of religion...

Are you sure about that...?

I'm not saying religion was outlawed...but I think there were certain holidays and practices that were not allowed...?

...although we may be discovering why Saddam didn't allow them...

http://www.iht.com/articles/508578.html

[Hell Hath No Fury]

49. Yes, there was freedom of religion...

though Hussein kept a tight lid on the fundy/nutty wing of some Muslim groups religious "expressions" -- like the religious holiday when followers took to the streets and beat the shit out of themselves until bleeding. That had been banned under Hussein.

[Aidoneus]

104. No, non-Shia minority religions were treated quite well

one of the VPs, Tariq Aziz, is Christian (Chaldean Catholic, I think).

The Shia were quite thoroughly pissed on, for political reasons not theological, but the rest were quite well off. Moreso than the Muslims, actually, because they weren't viewed as any political threat.

[ShaneGR]

53. Well, they died doing what they loved.... God bless em

Even though I disagree with the war, I have no problem with christian missionaries. Anyone remember that group the Taliban held hostage?

As for the water purfication angle, it's entirely plausible. I know for a fact that one of the main things christian missionaries are doing in Africa is installing well pumping devices in rural areas. Most of the time those devices have some sort of purification filter attached to them.

Anyways, even though I disagree with them, they showed a lot of bravery doing what they love.

[Malva Zebrina]

67. Well, no offense meant but I must disagree

that dying doing what you loved is to be commended. Many died doing what they loved and the entire concept that they loved was immoral, unethical and selfish.

IMO, these were so brainwashed that they loved anything that put them in the frame of mind that others need to be converted to their bigoted, intolerant religion.

Jimmy Carter saw that--and promptly resigned from the Southern Baptist Convention

Sure they loved what they were doing. So did a host of others whose activities were not exactly ethical in today's world
(the Emperor Basil the Bulgar-slayer)

<snip> Ways in which Byzantine empire was not so Christian
1) Cruelty
i) Basil the Bulger slayer
a) wins a military victory and captures 14,000 bulgers
b) pokes out bulgers eyes and left 10% of them with one eye to lead the rest home

</snip>

but they do not deserve, in my estimation, to be lauded as martyrs or be sainted for their intrusion and their insults to others in their native country, of another religion.

[Chovexani]

86. A voice of reason.

It's terrible that these people were murdered, my heart goes out to their loved ones and I hope that whoever did it is brought to justice. Murder is never acceptable.

That having been said I totally agree with you about the whole concept of missionary work. It's an abominable practice filled with a spirit of arrogance and condescension. These missionaries did not deserve their fate, but neither do they deserve to be called martyrs.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

94. while they may not be martyrs

they may well have been good intentioned. I have known many missionaries over the years and have been proud to count myself among their friends. Not all people who are baptists are of the sort that run the SBC, much like the fact that not all catholics are 100% in agreement with the Pope or the College of Cardinals. These sorts of generalizations about the practice of mission work really do alienate some people from the Democratic Cause. Yes, there have been some really REALLY bad missions in the past...and maybe even a majority of them...but some of these people really believe that what they are doing is for the kingdom of god. I don't know if you have ever had the chance to witness mission work in real life, but I have and none of what you said (well, the arrogance and condescension part) were true in the least...

theProdigal

[Chovexani]

100. They very *concept* of mission work is arrogant and condescending

Look, if they were just going to build houses, feed the hungry, clothe the sick, that's commendable--and it's called humanitarian work.

I have a problem with missionaries because at the base of all their actions, no matter how noble, is to spread their religion. They spread the gospel because they think anyone who doesn't get it goes to hell. That, and every soul they get assures them a better seat in the hereafter.

That they really believe what they're doing is for the kingdom of god makes them even sicker (I won't get into my opinion of the Christian god right now). It's nothing but religious imperialism and I have nothing but contempt for it. If that alienates people then so be it, quite frankly I'm sick of being told I need to tolerate people shoving their religion down my throat (and everyone else's) or else I'm a Bad Person. I don't have a problem with religion, or Christanity. I don't even have a problem with religious people doing humanitarian work with their religious groups. What I have a problem with is people going into other countries like the Borg and using needed things like food and medical care to assimilate "the natives" much like a trenchcoated pervert walks around a playground with candy. Who knows how many cultures have been destroyed because of it? At its core is contempt for indigenous cultures and beliefs. I was brought up in fundie Xianity, I've seen how this shit operates. They claim to want to "save" people because they "love" them, but their snide remarks about idolatry and whanot belie their real intentions.

Proselytization (sp?) is disgusting, period. I have no respect for anyone who does it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

102. your opinion of the christian God is clear

and i understand that you chose not to respect me or any of the other christians who do good work in the name of Christ. I doubt you have ever seen a missionary at work. Tell me, when I was in Africa building housing, working on irrigation systems, building a school and, yes, building a church, what did I have to gain? Did I profit from it? Did my church? These people had NOTHING to give. We shared the gospel...we might have even changed a life or two...but when I left, what did my days and days of work in 100 degree heat gain me? I guess the sum total of what I gained is about three people with whom I now exchange letters from time to time. You think we USED resources? You haven't a clue what mission work is about...we BROUGHT our supplies and what we couldn't bring with us we had to have shipped in from out of country. We left a school there. We left a much improved irrigation system for their fields. We eschanged ideas with these people and required nothing of them. Did we require that they come to a prayer meeting before we completed the school? No. And you know, that church still stands...there are seven christians in that village now...out of about 400 people...and you know what, I wouldn't have traded that experience for the world.

I am sorry you take such a dim view of all mission work...it shows that you really don't know a whole lot about a whole lot of the field.

theProdigal

[Sandpiper]

105. When you went to Africa

Was the pathway cleared before you by a column of American tanks? Slightly different situation.

The presence of these people in Iraq is as obnoxious as it is unwelcome, and only serves as a reminder of the hostile occupation of the country by a foreign invader.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

106. i see the lack of parallel here

but the previous poster was attacking all who do mission work...not just these people. And to be honest, we DON'T know the motivations of these people...just the overiding leadership of their church. As I said before, not all baptists are fond of the leadership of the SBC...just like some catholics that are out of step with the Pope. They may have had good intentions...if dangerously acted upon.

And no, we didn't have tanks clear our paths... :-) to clear a path took a little more work than just a tank could have provided!

theProdigal

[swinney]

66. Southern Baptist Convention

Only major religious group to promote Bush slaughterama in Iraq.

Sorry guys.

[Joanne98]

79. Fundies killing fundies good riddance

Let's put them all on a big island together and put it on Pay per View. We could use the money to pay off the debt.

[RichardRay]

80. OK, how about Fern Holland???

Fern Holland Information

She got killed because she was a westerner in Iraq. Did her simple presence somehow make her a tool of the Dark Forces? No, she just went there to do good work and got killed for being a westerner.

So I can regret her death and recognize that the only way it could have been avoided was for her to have stayed home. It's easy because she seems so clearly a hero.

I can also regret the deaths of the four missionaries there doing humanitarian work. Were they tools just by their presence? Not that I know of. I'd say they were killed for the same reasons, they were westerners. I may have questions as to what else they might have been doing, but I don't have any information on that, just wild surmise.

[jokerman93]

81. For the Christian Dominionists

For the Christian Dominionists this tragedy is a gift. They now have a solid example to point to of the oppression and persecution good Christians will face in the end times they are all harved up for.

So, it's bad news for thoughtful people everywhere who want no part of the coming engineered and fully manufactured Armeggeddon that's intended to redraw the geopolitical map over the next five to ten years.

[Sandpiper]

88. Call me a cynic

But these three people were representatives of an organization that supported the slaughter and bloodshed of the Iraqi people. Seems like they got run over by the karmic wheel when they were out spreading the "good word" among people whose deaths they cheered for.

[Disturbed]

90. Southern Baptists.

Isn't this the same group that has ben attempting to convert
Latin Americans for years; the same group that supported the Contras?
I don't find any satisfaction in anyone being killed, however people that go into war zones must know the risk of doing so. In my view, not only are these "missionaries" attempting to convert people to Christianity but specifically to their own brand of Right Wing, Fundamental doctrines. Yeah, they have a right to do this but they also must take responsibilty for their actions.

[Sandpiper]

96. I would posit

That under the present circumstances, they do not have right to be there. Their presence there is a result of U.S. military occupation. Had they been invited there, rather than come on the heels of military jackboots, I might feel differently.

[UrbScotty]

93. God Rest Their Souls. (nt)

[NNN0LHI]

99. It appears that Jerry Falwell and the boys thought invading Iraq was just

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1164779.html

<snip>Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, says Bush's approach meets "just war" criteria used for centuries to determine whether military action is moral.

"I believe just-war theory first of all says it must be defensive. And I believe we are defending ourselves against several acts of war by a man who does not keep treaties and who has already used weapons of mass destruction," Land said during a recent appearance on the PBS television program Religion and Ethics Newsweekly.

Land said he would like to see support from the U.N. Security Council for a pre-emptive approach, but the U.S. has "appropriate authority" to proceed with or without international support.

Prominent Southern Baptist pastor Jerry Falwell also supports Bush's policies and has criticized U.N. and congressional leaders for their "wait-and-see" approach.

more

[Bridget Burke]

101. The "generals" never think things will get dangerous.

Because they're so rarely in danger. Their foot soldiers probably meant well & trusted their leaders. Now they're dead & the "generals" can speak movingly of heroes.

[Hekate]

113. Iraq was not a "just war" according to nearly all churches

In October of 2002 Dubya was formally rebuked by the board of the United Methodist Church, of which he and Dick Cheney are nominally members. Roman Catholic bishops meeting in Washington DC about the same time also rebuked him in his drive to war, as did the Episcopal Church. It was fascinating to watch this take place, and to see him adamantly refuse to listen to any of them. Ultimately the only Christian sect in the US that did not join in this effort to keep us out of an unjustified war was the Southern Baptist Convention.

Hekate

[BonjourUSA]

108. Here we quickly learnt they arrived in the "luggages" of the US army.

That's one reason, among many else, of the mess between the Iraqi muslim clerics and the colonialist American gov in Iraq.

I don't know what's the translation in English, but the greatest American God gang in Iraq is "les Évangéliques"

[Hekate]

112. "les Évangéliques" would be the Evangelical Christians

I'm pretty sure the term covers more than just the Southern Baptists, who are by far the most numerous. If not all of them are also fundamentalists, taking the words in the Bible literally, then there is certainly a big overlap. Evangelical Christians believe they *must* spread the good news (gospel), bear witness, give testimony, etc. etc. So they talk about their faith to their neighbors and co-workers, and if they ever have a tv camera stuck in their faces they say they owe it all to God. A few of them are "called" to be missionaries, but most live next door.

George W. Bush "talks the talk": his State of the Union speech in January was practically a sermon in its language-usage. He has invited into his administration a very large proportion of fundamentalist/evangelical Christians, and he has empowered and encouraged those already there, like Army Lt. General "Jerry" Boykin, who Rumsfeld appointed deputy undersecretary of Defense for intelligence. Bush does this partly because he himself had a "born-again" experience that pulled him out of a death-spiral with alcoholism -- and partly, I am convinced, because it serves his drive to power.

As far as religion goes, I believe in "live and let live," and as long as you steer clear of blood sacrifices and marriage-by-capture, I don't care what you believe. Missionaries on my doorstep don't bother me, either: long ago I figured out it was better karma to say "Go in peace" as I shut the door in their faces.

Where I draw the line has to do with our American tradition of the separation of church and state. Thomas Jefferson and the rest were educated men who knew the European history of religious wars and persecutions very well, and they knew that the best protection for everyone would be to avoid having a state-sanctioned religion while allowing freedom of (or from) religion in society. I and many of my friends and relatives are members of minority religions that diverge from the majority in various ways, and I count on my right to be left alone to work out my spiritual destiny in my own way.

I count on this right, but I no longer take it for granted. I feel personally threatened by the Bush administration and their policies, and I think a lot of the animosity in this thread is due to that same fear. Bush is the front-man for extremists in religion as well as in politics, and he is blending the two in a very dangerous way. He not only has no business promulgating his "faith-based initiatives" at home, but he also has no business sending missionaries abroad under pretense of humanitarian government aid and using our tax dollars to do it. Soldiers are being pressured in subtle and not-so-subtle ways as well. This is just so wrong.

Hekate

[BonjourUSA]

117. The dark age is coming back

The names of the leaders we often hear are Billy Graham (and his son Franklin who is the leader of the Samaritan's Purse in Iraq), Pat Roberson, Ben Armstrong...

The number of American adepts of this shit could be 70 millions. A nightmare !!

[Blueshift]

114. God bless their souls.

They were in Iraq, trying to help the people there peacefully.

You know, I see a lot of hate posted here in this thread. Why do you hate these people so much? They are Christians. True, the Baptists may be racist (in general), but who says these folks were racist? They were doing good over there...like it or not.

It's pretty sad that a lot of you have to spit on them because they were humanitarians and Christians. A lot of you assume that if you're a Christian, you're a Freeper or a Fundie. Well...I'm a Christian and I'm not a Freeper or a Fundie. I'm a Democrat who believes in Evolution (and Creationism) as well as God and Christ as my Savior. Does that make me a Freeper or a Fundie? Hell no.

Also, as a Christian, it is our duty to spread the Word of God to people all around the world. We don't force nothing upon the people. If they want to believe it, that's fine. If they don't, then that's ok too.

Don't hate these people because of their religion. In fact, love these people for going into Iraq and working to give the Iraqi's good clean water.

[Crunchy Frog]

116. Let's see,

-Invade their countries-check

-Kill their leaders-check

-Convert them to Christianity-in progress

If Ann Coulter reccomends it, who could possibly have a problem with it?

By the way, can anyone say "Darwin Prize"?

[GreenPartyVoter]

118. I am very sorry for their families, and for the Iraqis

who have that many fewer people trying to assist them.