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skjpm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 03:45 PM
Original message
Why I am interested in gay marriage
I've had many close male friends which were probably one step away from being romantic. I can see the possibility of a lifetime, monogamous partnership with a man. However, I only see the "visible" gay community and I simply don't relate. I don't see myself as effeminate, and I'm not a sexual adventurer. The gay men I've met have felt predatory and invasive, inviting me to "experment" without really caring about my emotions or values. I'd simply like to settle down, maybe raise kids, and I think that I might be more able to share that intimacy with a man. The gay club scene eludes me completely.

The reason I put this up for discussion is that I think a lot of American men feel the same way. I think the gay marriage issue touches home because a lot of men who wouldn't ordinarily see themselves as "stereotypically" gay do realize that they have better relationships with men than with women. So, the whole issue raises an awkward possiblity--would I rather build a home with one of my buddies that I love spending time with, or with a woman--where there seems to be a lot of tension and misunderstanding?

I admire the gay men who stand up for marriage. I look at their pictures and the love between them and think that this might be something I could do. This may be the start of a new revolution, but I don't think that the "visible" gay community is ready to embrace normal masculinity. Or is it?

Incidentally, does anyone know a discussion board where I might discuss the more personal details? Again, the gay boards I've seen tend to be about hooking up or explaining some kind of wierd position. Is there a site for normal guys?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. There are all sorts of chat rooms
Edited on Sat Mar-13-04 03:53 PM by nothingshocksmeanymo
And the issues you are experiencing with gay men are the issues women experience with men everyday.

If you even think you might be gay, a better place to meet socialize and come to a conclusion if you live in a populous area would be your local gay community center...

The reason I say this is that the men and women who participate in these centers tend to be more aware in their approach and are quite community oriented so it tends to be about humans and community more than the meat market that bars tend to be.

They are a great place to form friendships with people (who like all of society) approach issues of sexuality from various perspectives.

And BTW...PlanetOut.com has every kind of discussion group available but it is the internet so you can never be certain of a person's intentions on such an intimate matter
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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Visibility
Going to a gay club with the expectation of meeting a compatible partner is about as realistic as expecting to find your life partner in a straight bar if you are straight. It generally only works well if one of your primary common interests includes the bar scene including the generally sexually charged atmosphere/way of relating, and the alcohol and smoking that are relatively common in both gay and straight bars.

It's not that the "visible" gay community won't accept "normal" masculinity - the communities in which I circulate are accepting of a wide range of expressions masculinity. The reality is that being publicly gay is dangerous. That realistic fear of being exposed causes large numbers of us average gays who can pass to keep that part of our lives hidden. Because we appear straight, it unfortunately perpetuates the myth that the individuals in the bar scene, or at the extravagant gay rights events, and the sexual hype that goes along with it are what is typical and expected of gays. Most of us are pretty darn average.

That is not to say there is anything wrong with being flamboyant we owe the most flamboyant among us a tremendous debt of gratitude for their courage in being public in spite of the dangers. It is just that flamboyant gays are no more representative of the average gay person than George Bush is representative of the average male.

We now have a new batch of hero/ines to celebrate - the thousands of average couples who risked jobs, friendships, and families to publicly marry, and are no showing the world a very different and equally integral part of our diverse community.
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silverlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Thank you and welcome to DU!
You put this so well! I have lesbian friends that have been together more than 20 years. They don't hit the bar scenes. They have been so active in the community and offer so much. I have met their gay friends and have been involved with some of their nonprofit sponsorships. You have expressed this so eloquently. Thank you again and look forward to future posts.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. The next step after banning gay marriage is what?
Banning "wrong" religions?
Banning "wrong" speech?
Banning "wrong" questions?
Banning "wrong" assemblies?

:think:
dbt
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. no one is going to ban gay marriage
they can talk all they want or name it differently, but at the end gay couples will have the same rights as straight ones. We can argue over the name, but in the court of law you get the same protections.

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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Right
Seperate but equal.


Jim Crow laws anyone?
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Exactly!
Thank you for saying what I would have said GBnC.
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. nice try
were they ever equal?
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Who si the "they" you are referring to?
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. take a guess
n/t
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. How about you tell me?
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. nah
think about it. It's not that hard.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. OH I know what it is...
...and if you think I will alert for it, you better think again, mate. If I wanted to alert on you I could have with your use of "they". The way you have used it, it is rather insulting to the queer community.

Next time try saying "when have gays ever been equal?" That would be a lot nicer.
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. alert if you makes you feel better
looking to pick a fight tonight, huh?
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Not at all.
I did say I could have, but I chose not to.

You know the reason I stick it out here at DU so much is simply to try and teach tolerance and understanding. I hope that my words will help just one person understand that we are all people with feelings. No matter who we sleep with, or what color our skin, eyes, or hair is.

I don't want to fight you PR, just trying to show you how the way you word things can and will hurt.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Have you ever read the text of the FMA?
If not, I suggest you do so so you don't assume again, that gays will be on an equal footing with hets.

And you do realize that if the FMA is to pass, that it will also be an attack against civil unions, right?

By the way, the FMA will ban gay marriages completely. That is what it is all about.

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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. you're assuming it passes
I'm not.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I most certainly...
...am not assuming it'll pass. Just I have read it, and I realize what is at stake, and will not go around making the separate but equal comments.

I realize a lot of people in my community are very scared, and they bloody well should be. If they don't get scared they won't fight back, and they are going to need to fight back come election day. I for one will not go around generalizing what the FMA is all about.

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Ms. Toad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Naming it differently,
As they did in Vermont, cannot provide the same rights and protections beyond the boundaries of the state in which it is created.

Marriages from Vermont are presumed valid. A civil union from Vermont has no presumed validity in any other state. I would not even hazard a guess how it might be interpreted by other countries - or what might happen to international couples having something "equal" to marriage who decide they want to live together in one or the other's home country.

Even within a state it will likely take decades of litigation, at the expense of the individuals involved, before the rights and protections would be equal.

It is possible that in creating the 'something "equal" to marriage' a legislature would also change each of the literally hundreds or thousands of laws which use the language of marriage (husband, wife, spouse, step-child, parent-in-law).

The common law would be a different matter. Common law (non-statutory) would be the subject of a multitude of court cases as each individual issue comes up, likely over a period of decades. The individual parties involved in each case that establishes that each common law right or responsibility must also apply to this separate but equal relationship would bear the legal costs to create recognition of that "equality."

As a concrete example, courts and legislatures have spent years removing gender designations from statutes that used to be gender specific, and have not yet been completely successful. Even in this day and age, courts still occasionally have to specifically address whether a gender specific statute or judgment was deliberately or inadvertently gender specific before deciding whether it applies to an individual of a different gender.

If this "equal" relationship is called anything else it will perhaps become equal a generation or two from now. It is virtually impossible to instantaneously create something that is equal but called something else. At a minimum, it will take years of additional struggle and expense to define whether each different legal treatment is equal but deliberately different or is an inadvertent remnant left over from when our marriages were deliberately different and unequal.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
11. I have a real problem with your other thread.
So of course I don't know what to make of this one.

I appreciate your wanting to explore your own sexuality, but talking about it on a message board, isn't going to find you the answers you are lookng for.

I met Sapphocrat four years ago. At the time, I had never slept with another woman. She didn't know that, at that time. She does now, and understands fully why I chose not to tell her. But that isn't the point.

The point is, I knew in my mind and heart that I was born a lesbian. I had been in a straight relationship for almost 15 years when I finally came out and admitted to the idiot I was with that we could no longer go on, because I was living my life as a lie. That is wasn't fair on either of us, that I stayed in a relationship where I wasn't myself. The relationship would only break down eventually, and it would have hurt the him a hell of a lot more than it did when I did do it.

I got out of that relationship and a year and a few months later I met Sapphocrat.

Of course I realized the moment I laid eyes on her, that she was the one God had created for me to spend the rest of my life with.

We became intimate, and even with all the problems we have in our relationship, I have never been happier.

My point is, if you are gay, you would already have a fair idea in yourself that you are. You wouldn't be scared to go out and and explore this further.

Asking the queer community stupid questions about monogomy in our*** relationships isn't going to tell you if you are a queer or not. You have to get out there and begin exploring that option.

***It happens to be a pet peeve of mine that when the word gay is mentioned the first thing that pops into peoples heads are tow males, when lesbians are clearly part of the gay community as well.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. "I'm not a bigot, but....I hate effeminate gay men who come onto me"
stealth poster.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. LOL!
Careful, hon.
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skjpm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. What do you want me to say?
I'm not sorry for the way I express myself. I recognize all sorts of bigotries and misconceptions in all aspects of my life, including this one. As I learn more, I grow out of them, but until I start talking about them, nothing happens.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. The biggest problem I have...
...with the gay threads you are producing at the minute, apart from the fact that they are down right rude to the queer community is, you ignore most of the posts in them.

When you begin a thread you cannot be selective in which posts you will respond to. If people take the time to reply to you, no matter how good or how bad you might take their words, you should have the decency to respond to them.

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