The anti-Semitism begins

[scottcsmith]

It looks like Mel Gibson's film The Passion is already fueling acts of anti-Semitism. A synagogue in Denver was recently defaced by Nazi graffiti, coming on the tails of a church in Denver posting a billboard that said "Jews Killed Jesus."

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/141/story_14174_1.html

Of course the Gibson defenders will say his film had nothing to do with this. Right.

[_Jumper_]

1. Sad story

One of my cousins attended that movie solely to support the movie because of its anti-Semitism. :puke:

[DenverDem]

2. Ironically,the church that posted the sign also was defaced by Nazi signs

Not mentioned in the beliefnet article.

Pretty unfocused anti Semitism, if that's what it is.

[LeahMira]

34. That is sad...

Ironically,the church that posted the sign also was defaced by Nazi signs

I hope the Denverites turned out as generously to help them clean up. Plastering Nazi signs on places of worship, no matter what the pastors have to say, is not the way to deal with anti-Semitism. It just ratches up the hate.

I think people need to educate themselves about ancient and not so ancient history including the culture and circumstances in which the gospels were written so each person can take Mel's film and Passion Plays generally for what they're worth.

[stopthegop]

3. I'll say if for you...

...the article quotes two people who think the movie may have caused the vandalism, or did cause it...the article doesn't say whether these two people have seen the movie...the movie is not anti-Semitic...

a few points:
1) this kind of thing has happened before
2) the article doesn't mention any suspects, so how do you know the people involved saw the movie?

anyone seeing anti-semism in the movie WANTS to see it, for their own twisted reasons...

automatically tying these acts to the movie, when you don't know who committed the acts, is weak and childish thinking (at best)

[AngryYoungMan]

5. Nonsense

You've got it all wrong. Read this:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096323

And this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31980-2004Mar4.html

Do you know about the obscure fringe sect of Catholicism that rejects Vatican II, which Gibson is a member of?

[stopthegop]

13. I know about the sect of Catholicism..

so what? I saw the movie twice...it's not anti-Semitic unless you either:
1) start out that way
2) WANT it to be anti-semitic because you hate traditional Christianity and/or Mel Gibson (for not thinking as you do)

have you seen the movie?

anti-semitism in the modern world finds it home in extremist Islam and the European/secular left...learn to live with the truth

edit: added 'with' before 'the truth'

[eissa]

19. I disagree with that last sentence

regarding anti-semitism and the European/secular left. Standing up for Palestinian rights does not automatically make one an anti-Semite.

[stopthegop]

20. it's more than standing up for Palestinian rights..

it's the entire mindset...look around...

[Malva Zebrina]

22. and being against Sharon and Israeli policy does not necessarily make

one anti-semitic.

There will be people who do not support a giant wall or other policies. They are against Sharon and today's Israel and see it's policies as oppressive. They are not anti-semitic either.

There comes a time when that accusation waxes tired and becomes overused.

[beanball]

23. Against Sharon

is appropriate and correct.

[ulTRAX]

25. I tire of this word game

Marianne wrote: "and being against Sharon and Israeli policy does not necessarily make one anti-Semitic."

I agree. I tire of this word game. Sometimes I think such accusations are hurled about as a cynical tactic to put others on the defense. What do such people want? To have the brutal repression of the Palestinian People by war criminals like Sharon excused because they are Jewish?

I favor judging people on their values.... not their ethnic or racial background.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

69. I'm sorry, but...

...your post makes way too much sense.

[Djinn]

26. have to disagree there

I'm an atheist and have no love of ANY organised religion - I attempted to watch The Passion, only because I think you need to before pretendnig to have an informed opinion - but walked out before it was finished, if I want to watch a sado-masochistic romp there's a porn store down the road. I can not be accused of being a "sensitive jew" as I've seen some critics of this filth described, in fact ask a few folks down in the I/P and they might give the total opposite opinion of me (although THEY'D be wrong too) but this movie is without a doubt anti-semitic.

* It is NOT based on the gospels as claimed- for a start they themselves contradict each other so it'd be impossible
* It attributes far more "jewish guilt" for jesus' supposed cruxifixion (I'm not convinced he even lived but that's another thread) than the gospels do
* It spends FAR more time comparitavely on the torture than the gospels
* It is heavilly based on "Passion plays" that are widely accepted anti-semitic, performed from the 15th Century onwards throughout Europe, laying foundations for the hatred that made the HOlocaust possible
* It does nothing to explain why decades AFTER the cruxifiction political reality made it a good idea to blame the jewish community and absolve the Romans

I'm happy with the description of anti-semitic and even if it wasn't taking kids to this is child abuse it's fucking naseating :puke:

[drewb]

71. I saw it twice and didn't think it was "Anti-Semetic" either time...

Maybe I'd better go watch it a third time...

:loveya:

[LeahMira]

38. Another good link from the slate one...

... is this one: http://slate.msn.com/id/2096185/

[Fight_n_back]

8. Since both Jews and the Vatican

view it as anti semitic, I will give those groups the benefit of the doubt.

[stopthegop]

14. when did the Vatican say it was anti-semitic?

link?

[Fight_n_back]

32. A little thing called

"VAtican II"

The Pope (the infallible guy) issued a list of images deemed anti semitic in a Passion Play. Gibson did everything on the list.

Probably an accident though.

[LeahMira]

35. Question for you...

anyone seeing anti-semism in the movie WANTS to see it, for their own twisted reasons...

I agree with you up to a point. Some people are so full of hate and general frustration with their own lives that they will use any excuse to lash out at a group that somehow they manage to blame for their own unfortunate situation.

But I wonder what you do see as the roots or the cause of anti-Semitism? Why have groups of people throughout the centuries been so anxious to rid their corner of the world of Jewish people?

[Cary]

4. I think it's a bit early to make this proclamation.

There is hope in that story. Anti-semitic acts are certainly nothing new. Nor is the massive turnout to show solidarity against the anti-semitic act.

I'm not a "Gibson defender". I'm only someone making what I see as an honest statement. You may be correct, but this incident, in and of itself, doesn't prove it.

[pacifictiger]

6. To say the movie

promotes antisemitism is a a generalized oversimplification. For existing bigots, any excuse will always suffice any time, any place. Normal clear thinking people will not now begin to condemn a whole race for the actions of a few jews portrayed in a movie.

[AngryYoungMan]

7. Again, nonsense.

The perpetrators of the Crusades and the Holocaust were "clear thinking" in their understanding of the gospels. It wasn't until the 1960s that the Vatican took the unprecedented step of altering their position on the gospels in order to recant their slurs against Jews.

Mel Gibson, as I noted above, belongs to a fringe sect that doesn't recognize Vatican II. (His father is a holocaust-denyer, and Gibson won't publicly contradict that).

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. I don't care if his daddy is Nathan Bedford Forrest

I don't know a single person who would air family disagreements in the media just to make you happy.

As for the rest, the story of the death of Christ has Jewish figures prominent in both positive and negative ways. That's the way it is written.

[AngryYoungMan]

12. It's not about making me happy. It's a repellant statement...

...and there are ways to disagree. Like, to say, "Well, I of course love my father dearly, but he and I don't necessarily see eye to eye on everything."

If my father was a racist and went on the record saying "we have to kill all the niggers" I would certainly find a way to condemn or distance myself from his views. And what Gibson Sr. is saying is no less incendiary or appalling.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Again, you ask for more than ordinary people would give

I don't know a soul who would air family disagreements like you wish.

Gibson could be a bigoted scumbag, but what his daddy says means nothing.

[AngryYoungMan]

16. Okay, maybe you're right.

I've been thinking about it. You've got a point.

But I still think there's a direct connection between the movie and the anti-semitic acts being discussed, and I strongly suspect that the movie's detractors are correct about its anti-semitic themes.

[stopthegop]

17. again...what is the direct connection?

[noiretextatique]

18. jc watts' dad publically disagred with his son's views

and clarence thomes (scumbag) used his family to score brownie points with his puppet-master. there are some more examples from hollywood.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Those are quite rare

And no way in the world should we expect people to do that.

[LeahMira]

39. Yes, we should!

And no way in the world should we expect people to do that.

No way should we expect people to do it gratuitously, but when specifically asked about the extent to which dad's beliefs are your own?

I think most people understand that children are not clones of their parents! I think we should indeed expect people to take a stand for their beliefs, even when those are not the beliefs of their parents. As others have mentioned, it can be done with respect and tact, yet still send a strong affirmation.

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. Family dynamics

Trying to apply your own family dynamics to those of others is unrealistic. To expect Gibson to make his dad look bad, which is what so many here seem to want, is wildly ridiculous.

[noiretextatique]

54. actually, his father does that all by himself

his IS a holocaust denier, after all. there is no way in hell i'd be mute if my father were a holocaust denier...but i suppose it depends on one's "family values."

[sangh0]

61. Honor thy father

even if he is a Holocaust denier.

[Djinn]

27. I'm one

I can absolutely GUARANTEE you Muddle, that were I or any of my relatives famous and someone in my family was faffing on about how 6 million + religious and secular jews just upped and left Europe and that the Jewish community had progated the "myth" of the Holocaust for some (god knows what) reason then I would be disowning them publicly and privately - it's a revolting thing to say.

Although no-one is asking that Gibson denounce his father, just his views, surely he could say "I love my father, however on the issue of jewish people "making up" the Holocaust he is wrong, very wrong and I believe those particular views are hurtful" how hard would that be?

I don't beleive in the visiting the sins of the father on to sons either but Gibson has gone on the record to say that he accepts the "religion" taught to him by his father, and that his vision of Christ's life and death was influenced by that, THAT'S why what his dear ol' Nazi Dad IS very relevant to this film.

But like I said anyone in my family wants to deny the Holocaust they can forget about Christmas visits from me...I don't have anything to do with Nazi's

[GinaMaria]

41. Me too

I have completely cut out family members, including my parents, who are bigots. They are free to think and feel as they wish. and So am I. I don't allow toxic people in my life and I've made my position clear.

For those who have stood up, it seems outrageous that someone wouldn't. There are many factors that keep people silent. I wish for them the courage to overcome whatever blocks them from saying and doing what's right.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. Again, unreasonable

I have a few members of my family who hate white people. It doesn't matter who those white people are or what they have done with their lives. They know where I stand and we TRY not to talk about. If I cut them off, I would be cut off by the rest of my family.

[LeahMira]

46. Sorry for you...

I have a few members of my family who hate white people. It doesn't matter who those white people are or what they have done with their lives. They know where I stand and we TRY not to talk about. If I cut them off, I would be cut off by the rest of my family.

I'm sorry to read that some members of your family feel as they do. I certainly understand your attempts to avoid the whole topic, since apparently it leads to disagreements that maybe don't need to happen. I also understand that you and Mel Gibson are not in the same place in your lives. It's possible that Mel Gibson was saying that his father had never lied to him and meaning that his father had always been honest about his beliefs rather than meaning that Mel himself believes as his father does because his father's beliefs are true.

Nonetheless, if being cut off from the rest of your own family is the price you have to pay for being true to what you believe, I'm sorry that you feel that, if pushed to that point, you would not be able to pay the price. What color is a chameleon?

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. I don't change my color and they don't either

It is a detente of sorts. Both sides hoping that the other will change. But family IS important and I am unwilling to sacrifice those I am close to because of a few I am not.

[GinaMaria]

51. Unreasonable?

Unreasonable were things that were said about black people by my family when I was a child. Horrible. Adult relationships are about choice. I was stuck with the idiots as a kid. I'm not stuck now. I walked.

I don't choose to be with people like them, ever. People this unhealthy mentally with bigotry in my experience have lots of other issues, that I want no part of.

Don't judge my decisions re:family. I don't judge yours.

[John BigBootay]

52. Bravo, Muddle--

I don't think Gibson owes anyone ANYTHING-- provided that his film does not embrace or promote anti-semitism, which it does not according to even some harsher critics.

I mean really, folks, turn the tables and you wouldn't like a liberal champion artist made to answer to conservative critics for his or her art, beliefs or the beliefs of his or her parents, now would you?

[drewb]

72. The minute I get out of the I/P forum you and I see eye to eye...

:toast: Muddle!

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. Thanks

[corporatewhore]

10. they just used the movie as an exuse the hate was already in them

they would of done it sooner or later they probably did it around the time of the movie and hype so it would get lots of publicity

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoNotRefill]

21. If this was fueled by Christian fundamentalism.....

why'd they pick Nazi symbols? Wouldn't they have picked christian symbols instead?

Sounds like teenaged skinheads to me.....

Oh, and BTW, this kind of shit has been going on long before this movie, and will keep going on long after this movie has faded. Stupidity is one of the few things you can count on to keep happening....

[BeHereNow]

28. Manipulation- plain and simple

The hate monger X-tians KNEW this movie
would stir up the other hate-monger skin heads,
at the very least give them a reason to act out.
Why? Because the nut-case x-tians WANT to drive
Jews back to Israel so that Jeebus can return.
Make no mistake, this is the beginning of something awful.
The dominionists believe that all the Jews have to
return to Israel in order for Jeebus to return.
As we have already witnessed, they are BULLIES
who will use any deceptive tactic they can to accomplish
their mission, including a full on take over of
our government. I fear for Jewish people right now
in America, because I truly believe the more power
the fundies amass, the more pressure they will put on
Jews who are NOT flocking to Israel, according to
their plan, to set the stage for Jeebus to come back.
And if they need to enlist the persuasion of the anti-semites
in Amurikkka to do it, I believe they will.

I am a Christian and I believe the Passion to be a
blasphemy of the worst kind.
ALL I need to know about the death of Jesus
is in my BIBLE.
I do not need to go see a movie to add
to my understanding of God's word.
Piss on you Mel-
You are guilty of the worst sins.
Hypocrisy and deception.
To presume to interpret and present God's word in
a fucking MOVIE?
You pompous ass hole.

BHN

Edited for PISSED off typos...How DARE Mel Gibson do this?
He is NOT a Christian, of that I can assure you.
No more than the pharisee fundies running loose
in the halls of our government.

[DoNotRefill]

30. Come on....Blaming Gibson for skinheads would work....

if skinheads came along AFTER this movie. The "fly in the ointment" is that the skinhead movement came along and started this kind of "action" before Gibson filmed Mad Max.

Most Skinheads aren't even Christian, they're either pagans or into the Norse gods, at least from everything I've read.

[BeHereNow]

31. That is not what I said-

I am saying BEFORE this movie was made,
the fundies knew it would invoke hatred towards
Jews, precisely because they knew that the skin heads
look for any reason to act out.
And NOT because the fundies think skin heads are X-tian,
rather because they KNEW they could count on them
to act out in a way that fits their agenda to get Jews to
return to Israel.
I think we are going to see some really ugly stuff
directed at Jewish people because of this movie,
and I think that was the plan all along as far as what
the fundies are trying to make happen.
BHN

[DoNotRefill]

33. What do we actually have to go on?

This synogogue got spraypainted with Swastikas and SS runes. This has happened MANY times before, and well in advance of this movie.

Has there been an upsurge in the numbers of vandalisms since the movie was released? I doubt it, since each instance would be national news due to the movie controversy.

What we have as far as evidence is a single incident of racist stupidity. If it had never happened before, I'd wonder at the root of it. Since it's happened all too often in the past, I haven't seen ANYTHING to suggest that it's even REMOTELY connected to the movie. And once you get into the whole Christian Identity issue, which is the religion of some of the Skinheads, it doesn't make SENSE for the movie to make skinheads angry at the Jews. In case you aren't familiar with Christian Identity, it basically says that Aryans are the true Jews, and that the current Jews basically usurped the Aryan's Jewishness. It doesn't have to make sense, they're skinheads, not rocket scientists, so that's what they believe. In effect, getting angry at the Jews in the movie would being getting angry with the Skinhead's religious forebearers. Even so, the Christian Identity skinheads are a small fraction of the skinheads as a whole, with many of them not CARING who crucified Christ, since they are pan-theists and worship Wotan and Loki and whatever else and view the Bible as fiction.

To be blunt, I think the media furor over the movie probably plays into the hands of the skinheads. It brings the issue to the forefront. Most didn't know the deal about the blood libel from the bible, and if they viewed the movie (doubtful, but maybe) I KNOW they don't as a rule speak Latin or Aramaic, so they wouldn't pick up on it since the subtitles regarding that part were apparently removed.

If the movie causes an increase in anti-semetic acts, my theory is that it will be done by kids, who see all the coverage, and figure "hey, this'll shock the hell out of people and get us air time." I doubt it'll turn them into actual anti-semites. I don't know if you've ever worked with kids that were involved with things like this, but from my experience working in the criminal justice system and dealing with the little shits, the most common thing I heard was "I don't know what the stuff means, I just did it to piss people off." Of course, if you talk to your average skinhead about Nazi ideology, the best most of them can come up with is "kill the blacks and Jews" and "Day of the Rope!" They generally don't know a whole lot about the real Nazis or what actually happened. Years ago, I showed one a "headshot" of Goebbels, which had no Nazi marking in it. He thought Goebbels was Jewish. I asked this kid about the SA, and he looked at me blankly, and didn't have a clue what I was talking about. It reminded me of Sid Vicious. He was into wearing the Nazi symbols, but did it only for shock value, to offend his elders. In fact, he was a committed anarchist/nihilist, which is a pretty damned far cry from being a nazi.

Anyway, enough rambling.

[LeahMira]

36. Think again!

Has there been an upsurge in the numbers of vandalisms since the movie was released? I doubt it, since each instance would be national news due to the movie controversy.

Generally these vandalisms make the local news, but not national news. I think that if someone took the time to collect the statistics they would find that vandalism directed against Jews tends to happen around the Jewish holy days and holidays. This particular incident happened on the Jewish festival of Purim, which could be a coincidence or maybe not.

In case you aren't familiar with Christian Identity, it basically says that Aryans are the true Jews, and that the current Jews basically usurped the Aryan's Jewishness.

As you admit, a lot of this doesn't make much sense. Still, if these people believe that current Jews are usurping their heritage, I can imagine that belief would cause them to be angry at current Jews.

Most didn't know the deal about the blood libel from the bible...

You really think they don't know about it? After the Catholic Pope has made the headlines addressing the issue? After Gibson's father has made current news with his scurrilous comments? These vandals aren't bright, but they don't live in caves!

[DoNotRefill]

44. If Metallica did a song about it.....

they'd know. Vandals are generally not the brightest people on the planet...and from what I've seen, they don't generally watch the news or read a lot, unless it has lots of pretty pictures that involve nudity.

[LeahMira]

37. Thank you!

I am saying BEFORE this movie was made, the fundies knew it would invoke hatred towards Jews, precisely because they knew that the skin heads look for any reason to act out.

Thank you! I realize that skinheads and such are going to find any reason to act out, but why give them a reason?

And, of course, some Christians will distance themselves from the whole thing and insist that they have no responsibility whatsoever for the anti-Semitic outbreaks that will come after this film is distributed.

I think we are going to see some really ugly stuff directed at Jewish people because of this movie, and I think that was the plan all along as far as what the fundies are trying to make happen.

Well, I would hope it's not such a plot as you think it might be, but I also am concerned about what will happen especially in Europe when this film is released. Anti-Semitism is already on the upswing there, and I'm afraid this will only add fuel to the fire. For sure, even if the fundamentalists didn't actually plot something, they won't be too upset if something happens.

There's a good article somewhere on beliefnet that claims that Jews and Christians are seeing essentially two different films because they are bringing two different sets of baggage to the film... two different experiences and histories. IMO, it seems as if the Jewish people are being asked to "get over it" but the Christian people aren't willing to "get over" their mindset. If anything good comes out of this film (which I doubt because the film itself was not conceived and produced with any such intent in mind), it would be that a dialogue would result. Maybe if Christians learn to de-emphasize some of their literalism, Jews would learn to be a bit more trusting.

[BeHereNow]

29. A TRUE Christian

would take the ten bucks they might spend to
see this holy-wood whoring of the Bible and
buy the homeless man outside the theater a meal instead.
I WILL NOT see this movie because I am a Christian
and I protest it because I am a Christian.
It is blasphemous and deceptive in the worst way.

BHN

[keithyboy]

43. How do you know all this if you haven't seen the movie?

Remember, Jesus was accused of being blasphemous when he walked the earth. It could very well be said of him that he was "anti-Semitic" although he was a Jew. Many Jews today who disagree with current Israeli policies and the Sharon government are called "self-hating" and sometimes even anti-Semitic. The name-calling has lost its impact because it has been overused and abused for political purposes.
I wish that ALL acts of racism (cross-burnings, graffiti, murders, lynchings, shootings, discrimination, etc.) would cease but humankind just has not evolved to a high enough plane of thought. The best we can do is to not add to it and to stop it where and when we can.

[BeHereNow]

45. Welcome to DU!

And thanks for jumping in.
I agree, the best we can do is not to add to it.
THAT is why Mel and his Fundie Friends will NOT
get a dime from my pocket.
Like I said earlier, as a Christian, not a X-tian,
I know that NO ONE can add anything I need
to know about the death of Jesus to what I already
have in my hands (the Bible) and heart, by the Grace of God.
Not some freaking ego maniac from Hollywood who
thinks he can actually add to the Word, or relay its
beauty in a movie. I am DEEPLY disturbed by it to be honest.
One of the reasons I think it is incredibly disturbing is
that there are people who will see it and be misled from
the truth. ( A very big sin in the bible, to mislead or decieve.)
The fundies argue that the movie will help people
find God. Well, it doesn't work that way. God finds you,
in His way and time, and to suggest that God needs
a pompous ass to help Him through a MOVIE is just
plain disgusting to me! Reminds me of the ridiculous
Tim LaHaye books and movies. All I can think is:
How many people could have been helped with the
money spent on that crap...REALLY helped through
Christian actions of Love. THAT is what brings people
to Christ, LOVING actions that are examples of
His teachings through His followers. People can learn
a WHOLE lot more about Jesus through actions than
words. I NEVER mention it when I am doing it.
I only tell people why I am doing what I do if, and when they
ask. It is by DOING the teachings that the door is
opened for discussion and sometimes it takes years, and it
is never successful when you try to beat someone over the
head with it. That is not what Jesus taught or instructed.
Quite the opposite.

I don't recall Him ever instructing me or anyone else to
make movies that are self serving to our twisted egos.
Who in the hell do these people think they are is all I can
think, "How ARROGANT of them."
When is the last time Mel visited a person in need?
I am not holding my breath for that to happen.
I doubt we'll see him going to a prison to visit inmates
anytime soon, or visiting elderly people, or delivering
meals to aids patients. Naw, that would be too menial
for a big Hollywood star to do, he is MUCH too important
of a "Christian" to actually do what Jesus asked.
"By their fruit you shall know them..."
Great advice.
Again, welcome to DU and thanks in advance for trying to
understand my viewpoint.
BHN

[LeahMira]

47. Do you need to murder to understand that murder is wrong?

Remember, Jesus was accused of being blasphemous when he walked the earth.

Because he supposedly claimed to be G-d, not because he had animosity towards the Jewish people.

Many Jews today who disagree with current Israeli policies and the Sharon government are called "self-hating" and sometimes even anti-Semitic.

This is true that they are called those things, but criticism of the Sharon government is no more anti-Semitic in and of itself than criticism of the Bush administration makes one anti-American. OTOH, there are those who want to attribute traits of character to the Jewish people simply because they are Jewish people, just as there are those who want to attribute traits of character to African-Americans simply because of their racial identification. That is prejudice.

The best we can do is to not add to it and to stop it where and when we can.

Exactly! And we can take a stand against it where and when it crops out. And we can try to avoid doing the kinds of things that we know from experience tend to draw out the bigots, racists, and general scumbags.

Mel Gibson should have know, and certainly was reminded by many people if it didn't occur to him already, that his film would be a source of controversy, and that the controversy would not be nice. Apparently, he decided that it was more important to him to depict as realistically as possible exactly what a Roman crucifixion was like for the crucified. He wanted to show in every detail exactly what Jesus suffered. He decided that doing that was more important and worth the possible risk of inciting anti-Semitic incidents in which people would be hurt and property desecrated and vandalized.

All those Christian people who are coming out of the movie in tears and claiming that the film has made them more aware of just what Jesus suffered for them are apparently agreeing with Mel Gibson's choice. Those of us who refuse to put more money into the man's pockets are those of us who disagree with his decision.

[BeHereNow]

50. Wow! Great post.

I think we agree on sooo much.

"All those Christian people who are coming out of the movie in tears and claiming that the film has
made them more aware of just what Jesus suffered for them are apparently agreeing with Mel Gibson's
choice."

If those X-tians opened their bibles now and then, they
would know without seeing the movie and could cry
without putting money into Mel's pocket.
The time and money they spent on themselve so they could
"see Jeebus suffer" could be spent on and with someone who
actually is suffering.
I know where LOTS of them are.
Sometimes they are your neighbor.
Or in a old folks home in your area.
Or in the hospital childrens ward with a terminal disease.
Or doing life in a federal prison.
To spend one hour or dime on this movie is to waste
time and money that could be spent with someone
who needs them. Hypocrites, those weeping movie goers.
They need entertainment to indulge and enchance their faith?
Pah-leeze. They make me puke.
I think the fact that they need to see how Jesus suffered
for THEM is the operative. Self centered, self seeking
hypocrites, Christians who have embraced our cultural
neurosis of "It's all about ME! MY feeling GOOD about being
a Christian! Looky how Jesus loves ME! I'm gonna go back
to see how Jesus loves ME again tomorrow, to hell with
those other people who might need someone to read to them
in that nursing home, cause by golly, see how much Jesus
loves MEEEE? I must be a really special person!"
Sorry to rant, but I purposely watched a "making of" on
a X-tian station the other day and saw these people going
on and on about how much the movie had touched THEM.
It was all about THEM and then they ended the
show by asking viewers to send money to help advertise
the movie. I say get your asses out of the movie seats
and out there in your neighborhoods
if you want to do some advertising for Jesus.
The work is anonymous and done in the trenches and guess what?
It's NOT about you or your "feelings..."
GRRRR...
BHN

[Skittles]

60. proof

that "true Christians" just might exist.

[silverpatronus]

48. god killed jesus...

and any way you slice it, that's the brass tacks of the situation. if you believe in the existence of jesus that is. a lot of christians quickly forget that their entire religion is based on the fact that jesus HAD to die to be proven the messiah.

'the passion' doesn't create anti-semites out of thin air, or out of formerly tolerant people. it's just a really bad movie.

[John BigBootay]

49. There were 1600 anti-semitic crimes last year--

There will probably be a similar number of them this year.

Gibson's film is not responsible for these crimes-- not even partially responsible.

The crimes are the fault of the perpetrators alone.

Gibson's film is generally regarded as accurate insofar as the Jews being depicted as calling for Christ's death.

Would you have preferred Gibson "rewrite" the gospels so that the Jewish mobs were against the crucifixion to make the film more PC?

How about Gibson rewrite "Braveheart" so that the English are portrayed as the good guys?

Obviously, I think many people here on DU would prefer that Gibson simply not make the film at all, while still decrying Howard Stern's dismissal from CC stations as censorship and championing his RIGHT to say whatever HE wants on the air.

Guys-- you can't have it both ways! Freedom of speech is universal.

Condemn the perps of violence, not those who merely recount an uncomfortable moment in history (as proclaimed in the Bible.)

[Djinn]

55. I don't think THIS

act had much to do with the movie per se - it seems to be stupid kids or Neo NAzi's but to say that "Gibson's film is generally regarded as accurate insofar as the Jews being depicted as calling for Christ's death." is so far from the truth it's not funny.

The bible (or more accurately the gospels) have different versions of this incident so how on earth can one make a film that's "true to the Bible"

[John BigBootay]

57. The Jewish mob did not call for crucifixion?

I am not a bible scholar, but this is how I learned the gospels portrayed the events. How did it really happen?

[Cassandra]

58. Jews did not do crucifixion

Romans did. Frequently.

[John BigBootay]

59. I did not say the Jews crucified Jesus!

I said the mob was in favor of it. That's how the Bible portrays it and how the film portrays it.

Where is Gibson wrong in such a representation???!!!!!

And why do you willfully misinterpret what I said, Cass???

[Cassandra]

62. They wouldn't have been in favor of it either

except to avoid being crucified themselves. If Jesus had done something to offend the Jews at the time so severely, they would have stoned him. The Gospels describe the crucifixion as they would like it remembered, not necessarily as it was. At the time, they were currying favor with Rome and wanting to distance themselves from other Jews who refused to convert.
Some of us see the Bible as written by men, not God. Human beings are imperfect and have agendas that are not necessarily holy.

[John BigBootay]

64. How the hell do you know this????

And why did you initially distort my assertion?

Gibson believes in the gospels-- not in some other interpretation that makes you feel good.

So what if a largely Jewish mob cheered for Jesus to be crucified? There were plenty of Europeans who cheered when the 911 planes took down the twin towers-- people do things that are wrong for a huge variety of reasons. We don't hate all Europeans because some cheered, we forgive them for being wrong.

[Cassandra]

65. How do you know I'm not right?

and how do you know that the Gospels aren't just "some other interpretation that makes you feel good"?

[John BigBootay]

66. The moon is made of green cheese--

How do you know I am not right?

This is silly.

Unless I hear it from a community of scholars who agree, I am going to go with the "standard version."

[Cassandra]

67. What is the "standard version"?

Since Gibson's version does not match up with the Gospels, what are you clinging to exactly?

[Djinn]

70. which "standard version"

which gospel do you take as the "correct" one - they don't all say the same thing??

[drewb]

73. I happen to like cheese, green or otherwise...

Apparently "Freedom of Expression" is only dear to "liberals" when they agree with the artist...

:loveya:

[Djinn]

75. Who said that

Freaky sado-masochist Mel has every right to make a dodgy movie based on ancient hatreds, however I also have every right to say "it's a piece of shit" or to point out that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a movie to be based on "the gospels" given the contradictions and difference between those same gospels.

Who tried to stop him making the movie?

[drewb]

76. Who tried???

Abe Foxman and his gang tried...

You certainly do have the right to call it whatever you want...

There are some here that seem to think that they have the right to dictate whether or not Mr. Gibson can make the movie and whether or not I can go see it.

That's bullshit.

:loveya:

[elfwitch]

53. This is what my Rabbi had to say after he saw the movie...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1219735

[Red State Rebel]

74. Your Rabbi specifically says in the email that he did NOT see the movie.

Opinions based on other peoples ideas and views rather than his own viewing of the movie is hardly a way to inform his congregation.

[democratdemagogue]

56. see it first

No antisemitism in the movie. Germans didn't complain that Schindler's list would incite violence against Jews. Cut me a break its a frickin movie! And don't even reply or post anything unless you've seen it. But i have and if anyone is stupid enough to blame all Jews throughout the history of time for the actions of a handful of Jews 2000 years ago is idiocy at its greatest. Antisemetic? Definitely not. People who paint Swastikas and what not would do it whether this movie was made or not.

[leesa]

68. The anti-semitism has been going on for a long time. MiddleEastern

Muslims are semitic too but we don't seem to have a problem with blowing them to bits. An alleged criminal MIGHT be hiding out in Afghanistan and we have zero problem with carpet bombing the country for ten months and counting...just semites, after all...tens of thousands dead who had not one thing to do with what happened on 9-11.