DU queers, how are you handling the hate?

[foreigncorrespondent]

In my 36 years of living on this earth I have never truly hated anyone, or any one class of person. That is until recently. And I am not the only queer experiencing this.

I know of a lot of queers who are now trying to come to terms with the fact that the wanker-in-chief had declared war on our very lives, but we also have to come to terms with the fact that there are those on the left of the politcal scale that have chosen not support us. And that there is other minority groups out there that have chosen to side with the devil rather than continue supporting the fight for civil rights.

You want to talk about a bag of mixed emotions? Hell, my partner, cannot even post on DU anymore. She cannot write in her blog anymore (a blog which was very popular and helping a lot of people fight the right.) Why do you ask? Because like me, she is tired of having to defend our very lives to people who just don't get it.

Well now, the man who calls himself a uniter, not a divider has managed to divide a nation and a world.

He has managed to split the democratic party into two camps, queers, and those who support queers, and those who wouldn't know the meaning of humanity if they fell over an open dictionary on the very page, displaying that very word.

And it saddens me to say that in good conscience, I can no longer support any one person or any one group which does not support me or my community.

I certainly don't turn my back on DU or the democratic party, but I do turn my back on everyone that is against me and my communities very life. Those people ought to be down right ashamed to call themselves liberal. You have sided with the devil, and have managed to give the GOP exactly what they wanted, and that is, for the democratic to come crumbling to its knees. I congratulate you for being able to let hatred for another human being to stand in the way of your so called love for the politcal party you chose to support.

I have never hated like I hate now. I don't know how to deal with this kind emotion. Emotion that I thought never existed in me.

With that said, I am asking the DU queer community and our supporters to tell us if you are experiencing something similar to what myself and others are going through. And if so, how are you coping with it?

[Dookus]

1. I'm not discouraged

at all. I never expected the right to give in easily. I always knew it was going to be a battle.

Now the battle is joined. We've been waiting all our lives for this. Now is not the time to be discouraged. Now is the time to win the battle.

[Demonaut]

21. What "liberals" are you talking about??????????/

I'm hetero but I support your right to marry, If a few liberals have a hard time with marriage and only support civil unions well it's still a step forward, Being gay to some hetero's is a very alien concept. You can't accept their doubts as some can't accept your sexuality, Love/sex are distinguishable but are also intertwined. Good luck and try not to hate, pity the ignorance but dont hate.

[Dookus]

24. I'm not sure what liberals YOU'RE talking about

I didn't use the word in my post.

[noiretextatique]

45. here's the problem: you don't have to "accept someone's sexuality"

to support equality. and that's a distinction more of those who have "doubts" need to make. i could care less if someone "accepts" me...but i will sure are hell fight for my right to enjoy the same privileges and rights that heterosexuals do.

[Demonaut]

105. since when, so opinions and beliefs dont matter??

You know the "Rome wasnt built in a Day" argument, Equal rights for blacks did'nt happen overnight, and you dont force people to accept ideas that are inherently repellent to them, you use persuasion, you show examples, you give it time to sink in, what happens when we're forced to accept ideas that we dont agree with? You fight back, and toss a little religeous fervor in and you have a war. Civil Unions may be the first step, marriage the next, but it wont happen overnight. My worry is gay bashing may become a national pastime with the religeous right, justified by thier interpretation of the bible. Look what has happened with the abortion issue, WR nutcases are far more extreme than liberals, We know what is right, what is fair but this needs time and until now the exposure has been too little.

[foreigncorrespondent]

70. But alas...

...what about those liberals who don't even support civil unions? And believe me, there are a few people who have actually typed those words in posts here on DU. What are us queers meant to do then?

The moment they stop hating me, my partner, and my community, that is the moment I just might begin not hating, but NOT before.

And anyone who is in support of the FMA is actually against civil unions as well. I don't know if you have read it yet, but I have. The way they have worded it currently, it actually shuts the door on civil unions as well as marriage.

Bush* has come out in the past and said he does not support civil unions. Yet, when he wants the LCR's votes come election day, he says, he supports civil unions. He is nothing more than a two faced bigoted piece of shit. If he supports civil unions then why in the four years that he has held a stollen position, why hasn't he done something about this so called support he has?

[Bundbuster]

58. My letter to (CO Congressperson) Marilyn Musgrave

Ms. Musgrave:

I'd like to know from where you evolve such bigoted hatred against your fellow humans. I've often said that if every Gay person in America were to "come out" tomorrow, only the most extreme hatemongers such as Fred Phelps would continue their homophobia. May I ask you to close your eyes for a moment and envision that scenario...suddenly people from every walk of life - countless friends, politicians, CEO's, ministers, teachers, soldiers, atheletes, policemen, firemen, doctors, lawyers, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers - most of whom you held in highest esteem the day before - all of them out en masse before your eyes and touching your life. The only reason this has not happened already is the guilt, fear, and shame which people like you have buried them in from the day of their birth.

You are a disgrace to the very concepts of "Christianity" and "Family Values." Your party has become a supreme instrument of fear, greed, and divisive guilt. Every time a shamed, marginalized, fearful homosexual decides that suicide is a better option than living in the constant shadow of your oppression, I want you to reflect on what your "values" are contributing to our society, and pray that the next life senselessly lost is not a "loved one" in your own family.


*edited to include "CO Congressperson"

[Zhade]

60. Hell yes. Call her on her intolerance. Good job!

NT!

[foreigncorrespondent]

68. Dook...

...sorry my replies are happening a little late, but after posting this earlier I just had to relax for a while. I had a really bad migraine happening. But I am here now.

I'm not at all discouraged by Bush*s announcement. I refuse to let that jerk off destroy the person I am. What I am discouraged about is basically the attacks we have seen from the left.

When we get it from the right it doesn't affect us near as much, because we expect it from those kinds of people, but when the attack comes from someone claiming to be a liberal, then it comes as a shock, and hits home pretty damn hard.

I certainly don't intend to give up on this battle. I do write emails to government officials. Granted my emails don't carry weight considering I am not an American citizen. But nevertheless I never give up trying, in the hopes that just one person will finally get what it is I am trying to say.

In all honesty, I truly believe Bush* signed his own political death warrant yesterday when he announced his support for a bigoted piece of paper that for the first time ever will make the constitution of the United States not stand for every single American citizen.

This fight has only just begun. They are the ones who drew the lines, and I for one have no intentions on backing away from their bigoted bullying.

However, when that bigoted bullying comes from people right here on DU, then, that is when I need to turn my back.

I hope you understand that a lot better, my friend.

[damnyankee2601]

130. Try to get past it.

I never knew I had the capacity to hate until I moved to Texas and now live as a liberal minority in a state overrun with right-wing freaks. Now I can truly understand the evil of opression and how it eats your soul. In recent months, I have been so consumed by hatred of the right that it has spilled over into my personal life and I have started attacking moderate Republican freinds.

This is the true danger of hate. It is poisonous to your mind and soul. I am working very hard to shed mine. I urge you to do likewise.

[Norquist Nemesis]

2. I'm not queer

but I've got your back and support your fundamental right to be equal in every way. :)

[Maat]

9. I support you too.

You are going to find support that will surprise you. Now that the issue is on the table ... every one of my friends has a little self-auditing...to a person, everyone supports civil rights for all, especially the right to marry. Even my husband's business partner in Texas ... he has a sister who has married her female partner of many years, and now this business partner is an ex-Republican.

[foreigncorrespondent]

73. I'm not suprised...

...by the support my community receives from so many of the true liberals who surround us here on DU, and out in the big wide world. I am however, surprised by the amount of bigotry coming from people who claim to be liberals, right here at DU. People with large post counts, who have a little star next to their name.

Nevertheless, I want to thank you for the support YOU give my community.

Thank YOU! From the bottom of my heart.

[BlueJazz]

12. Ditto for me also...

:)

[foreigncorrespondent]

74. RL...

...You're a true gentleman. :)

Thank YOU! From the bottom of my heart.

[foreigncorrespondent]

71. And I for one...

...truly appreciate your support.

Thank YOU, from the bottom of my heart.

[imax2268]

3. Well...I'm not gay...

but I believe that everyone is equal in one way or another...and the rights of gays in this country shouldn't be any different than non gays...

[OneBlueSky]

4. aw, hell . . . this whole thing will backfire on him . . .

what he doesn't know is how much people LOVE the Fab Five! . . . :)

[enki23]

5. nothing wrong with hate for the right reasons

fuck 'em. they've got hate coming in spades.

[Cleita]

6. What happened is that liberals were too big a demographic

for them to scapegoat, so they narrowed it down to gays. I am stunned that they think the rest of us will sit back and not blanche over this.

[foreigncorrespondent]

75. That is what...

...surprises me as well.

I can't believe how stupid they truly think people are.

[Gringo]

7. I'm the same age as you and I'm puzzled

that you are acting as though any of this is new. I remember Bush sr. and the GOP pandering to the religious right nutcases with anti-gay rhetoric back in the late 80's/early 90's. I remember how the Reagan administration did and said NOTHING as AIDS decimated the gay community.

I think the number of people who are tolerant of gays has grown, but those who hate them do so as ardently as ever, and they probably always will. As long as there are people who are insecure about their own sexuality, there will always be people who lash out at those who embody that which they see as their own weakness.

And if, by your post, you are lashing out at those, like Kerry or Edwards who favor "states rights", or "civil unions" just keep in mind what a powder keg this issue can be, and how tenuous our hold on ANY power is right now. To risk turning over our government entirely to far-right-wing fascists for the sake of gay marriage would not benefit ANYONE, certainly not gays.

I know that Kerry, Edwards, and the vast majority of the dem party are behind the rights of gays to live and love as they please, but staking out too strident a position at this point, when we are so vulnerable is too big a risk with to little of a payoff. If we were sitting here with a democrat president and a democrat congress, I'd be all for having a national law legitimizing gay marriages, but now is not the time. It's literally life-or-death right now - for our party, our soldiers, our children and us...

[adamblast]

13. Now is *never* the time, Gringo...

...I understand your goodwill, and take your post in the spirit it was intended. But people like you--who decline to support gay rights because "it's a losing issue"--are about to help the Republicans take away my basic citizenship.

You can't really expect us to be satisfied with *silence* when the other side is calling to enshrine our 2nd-class status in the bloody constitution.

[Gringo]

31. Not "declining to support" anything

But I am willing to take baby steps if it means a greater chance of success, and if it helps to get the general public better accustomed to new ways of defining relationships.

Civil unions are a HUGE leap forward compared to where this country was in the early 70's when gay bars were still being raided by the cops simply for being gay bars.

Look at your history - Berlin in the 20's and 30's was one of the most tolerant, Bohemian places in the WORLD, and then Kristallnacht, and almost overnight, millions of dissidents, communists, Jews and GAYS were imprisoned, then murdered.

Thinking that that could never happen here is naive, especially in the present climate. Doing anything that might provoke that kind of backlash is not acceptable to me.

Edwards and Kerry are trying to support gay rights without alienating "ma & pa". And I disagree with you that there isn't a right time for things. Clinton shouldn't have made gays in the military such a big issue in 92 because it nearly derailed his domestic agenda in '93, and ended up with the wierd "dont ask dont tell" Had he been more discreet, but then implemented those changes quietly a bit later, the results might have been better, and we might not have had the New Gingrich revolution in '94.

[foreigncorrespondent]

79. Of course YOU are willing...

...to take baby steps for something that doesn't actually affect YOU, Gringo.

How about taking giant leaps for something that is right and just, just for the hell of it?

[Eloriel]

150. Baby steps

Yeesterday I finally made the time to watch an incredible movie still (barely still) playing on HBO: Iron-Jawed Angels. It's about the women's suffrage movement in the U.S., the very late stages of it, starting about 1912. (The 19th Amendment was finally passed in 1919.)

It portrayed the split between some of the younger women who were working hard to get the vote (Alice Paul, primarily) and the older women who'd been at it all their lives.

Alice Paul wanted to make waves; Carrie Chapman Catt wanted to be "ladylike," and not make waves. The younger group finally split completely from the National Association of Women Suffrage to become the National Women's Party, after a pretty strong push.

We didn't even get the Amendment (let alone its passage) until some rather unruly things went on, things that the older group would NEVER have sanctioned, NEVER have okayed, NEVER have participated in.
Namely, protests in front of the White House, and then hunger strikes during imprisonment on ridiculous charges for those quite lawful protests.

In actuality, and this wasn't shown in the otherwise marvelous film, Women's Suffrage was granted in Great Britain after WW1, and that plus those noisy women sorta shamed Wilson into finally supporting the Suffrage Amendment.

But my point is this, and I would encourage everyone who's an activist to watch this film for this lesson if nothing else: There is always a discussion among activists about just how to go about their activism. Should we engage in protests and maybe even civil disobedience? Or should we be nice, act in ladylike and gentlemanly ways, and not rock the boat?

YOU DON'T GET ANYWHERE IF YOU DON'T ROCK THE BOAT. In the final analysis, it takes BOTH approaches -- people who work outside the system to shake things up, and people who work inside the system to make things happen there once things are shaken up from the outside.

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never has and it never will. -- Frederick Douglass

You need both. "Baby steps" as a strategy can NEVER work, not alone. There's no "demand" inherent in the request or wish for "baby steps."

You need both. Always.

That's why I'm so proud of Rosie O'Donnell today. Forget the fact that she got married (altho I'm happy for her) -- she brought some important press to the issue. I'm even prouder of the Mayor of S.F. for doing this audacious thing. What a GREAT action it is!

Foreigncorrespondent -- my heart goes out to you and your partner. Many of us stand with you. But yes, it is a heartbreak that there are those on the left who still harbor homophobic (andracist and sexist) attitudes, and that many of them are free to post those sentiments here at DU.

[Gringo]

33. PS -I do NOT believe the votes are there

for the amendment Bush is calling for. It is pandering to the religious nuts, and it will not pass.

[foreigncorrespondent]

78. Well good for you...

...Gringo.

Considering I am actually Australian, and only really discovered an interest in American politics about 8 years ago, I'm not surprised that things do come as a shock to me.

But alas, it isn't what the right is doing that has given me this shock. It is actually the bullshit that has been coming from a few on the left that has managed to shock me.

And, if I wanted my feelings known on the current democrattic candidates, I would have posted about it in GD2004.

My post has absolutely nothing what so ever to do with the presidential candidates. As I stated in my post, I am not turning my back on the democrats, or DU. I am actually turning my back on those bigoted fools who are so full of hatred they can't see past their own darkness to see happiness right in front of them.

So don't assume my thread is about something it obviously isn't about, and then proceed to ball me out about it.

[Gringo]

91. Well, I don't think I was all that hostile

But I did feel like that could have been read into your post, since it was worded vaguely. I think we all deplore what Bush is doing, but don't fall into the trap that the media does: of believing that republican politicians actually care about banning abortion or gay marriage or whatever. They run the entire government. If they wanted to, they could have done a lot worse by now. The fact is, they aim to keep these wedge issues alive indfeinitely so they can pander to their evengelical fringe.

Everything they ever do is a sideshow, a smokescreen to distract people from seeing their true primary objectives: looting the treasury, bankrupting the government so as to completely end all new deal programs, and giving our money to corporate fatcats.

Anybody who believes that Karl Rove, or any republican with a brain actually CARES about these issues personally is incredibly naive.

And my hesitance to move forward too quickly on gay rights issues is founded on a very real danger that I have already outlined. Are you ready to fight in the resistance when they start loading gays & intellectuals into concentration camps, or wouldn't you rather be a bit more methodical about it?

The democratic party will steadfastly oppose any anti-gay amendment. I'm proud of our party for that, and I'm proud that they are trying to protect the rights of gays while keeping our tent as big as possible.

[xchrom]

95. equality under the law

is every bit as important to gay folk as looting the treasury is to you.
when idiots like bush make pronouncements like the one he did yesterday -- x number of gay folk will wind up dead as a result.
as well as intesified rhetoric and the creation of an environment that makes it difficult to live.
equal under the law is not goal to be attained by baby steps -- it's the right thing right now.

[foreigncorrespondent]

96. The trouble is, Gringo...

...you were looking for something in my OP that isn't there.

If you want to know who I support in the primaries, I will tell you. If you want to know what I think of the candidates I will tell you, but this thread has absolutely nothing what so ever to do with this coming election. This thread is based on FACTS. Things that I have seen happening around DU, and in the big bad world since the sodomy laws were overturned.

As for everything being a sideshow, I KNOW thank, Gringo. I have been saying that since the very first thread popped up on DU after the sodomy laws were overturned that said, this will win Bush* the election in '04. I might not live in the United States, but that doesn't make me blind to facts.

And your hesitance on gay rights is wrong. It does not affect you, because you aren't gay, and so you haven't the fogiest of notions on how it truly feels to hear from people on the left to move slow with things.

Gringo, answer me this, how slow are Sappho and I meant to go? She is in the United States. She is unable to move from the United States at this time because she has her elderly sick mother to take care of. How long a waiting period do people who are hesitant expect us to wait for our life together? Sapph is going to be 43 this year. I just turned 36. Neither of us is getting any younger, and so far, we have been waiting almost four years to actually begin our life. Without having the fear of receiving a letter from the INS saying Dear Ms XXXXXXXX, your request for a visa extension has ben denied. You have X amount of days to leave the country, because you have overstayed your welcome by X amount of weeks. Or without knowing that after a matter of 28 days together I will be driving her to the airport so she can head back to a country where people expect us to wait for our life together.

Gay rights isn't a joke. And playing politics with peoples lives isn't a laughing matter. You can bet your last fucking dollar that I would join a resistance group if it came to that.

Do you think I would honestly sit back and not do my best to help my community? I am a proud queer, and I am proud to stand by the side of my American brothers and sisters and fight to the death for our rights. Aussies are far from whimps, and certainly don't back down from a fight. I suggest you read up on our soldiers some time.

So no, I wouldn't want to be a bit more orderly about anything.

[Gringo]

102. Sorry you feel that way...

That you think I'm that indifferent. I'm moving to SF and have many gay friends, and I will always support their rights. If there were a referendum on the ballot to extend full marriage rights to gays I would vote for it.

"Gay rights isn't a joke. And playing politics with peoples lives isn't a laughing matter. You can bet your last fucking dollar that I would join a resistance group if it came to that."

I take it very seriously. Do you? Have you ever lived through a holocaust like the one Germany live through? I haven't, and I don't want to have to. I'm acutely aware of how rabid murderous fascism is always lurking under the surface in the US. I think that many strident gay rights advocates are living under the illusion that we are in some sort of civilized democracy here. You say you would fight to the death for your right to marry. If things took a turn in the nazi direction, you would end up DEAD. Gays are a tiny minority, and we've seen what happens when a tiny minority is used by a ruthless regime as a scapegoat. The majority fall silent and do nothing as the "different" ones are rounded up.

I see this country as being thisclose to that sort of scenario, so please don't denigrate me as not caring. It is precisely because I do care that I'm encouraging restraint.

Again, in principle I support full marriage rights, but I'm not gonna go waste my vote on Nader or something just because the dem nominee will only support civil unions. 4 more years of Bush and the destruction of this country is not worth it.

[foreigncorrespondent]

103. YES I DO TAKE IT VERY SERIOUSLY!

If I didn't, I would not have said it.

If it gets to the point where they begin carting my brothers and sisters off, I would be there fighting for their freedom. I would be part of any resitance movement, you can bloody well believe that.

No I haven't lived through a holocaust, and I hope I never will.

And if I end up dead then guess what? I am already living in a death sentance every single day. Because living with my partner on the opposite side of the world from me, not being able to touch her, to smell her, to hold her, to hear her voice, it like losing someone to death. The pain is very similar, believe me.

And I never told anyone to waste their vote on Nader. And by the way, I don't know if you have bee told this, but a foreigner cannot vote in an election in the United States, especially one that isn't living there. I resent what you are implying with your last paragraph. Like I said, this thread isn't about the damn election, do you understand?

[Gringo]

107. Then what is it about?

Bush's ploy is ALL about the election - there will be no amendment (unless the fascist scenario unfolds)

My primary vote and election vote are the ONLY way in which I can personally affect this issue.

If your post was only about venting your frustration with the way things are - my heart goes out to you. If I was in your shoes, I'd either come live in the states illegally, or have my lover come over to Australia (if she can legally do so there - does Oz have gay marriage?)

In any discussion with friends or family, I ALWAYS favor the gay-rights side, no matter how unpopular, but in the political arena, securing those rights in actuality is a lot more difficult.

I realize that you aren't specifically attacking or endorsing any candidates (even though I thought an there was an implied slam against civil-union backers). But at this point, what can any of us do to affirm gays' right to marriage besides voting?

The original thread title is "How are you handling the hate?" - So I suppose it was more of a venting thread. Maybe it was my mistake for trying to take it in another direction. I really only wanted to make the point that these GOP thugs don't so much hate gays themselves, but that they try to harness the hate of the dregs of our society to win elections.

I'm happy for all the wonderful couples who have affirmed their love in SF. But what's happening in SF is NOT going to directly help your situation, and may be the spark that starts an ugly backlash. For all our sakes, I hope not. I really do hope that most people have grown beyond that kind of bigotry by now. On can take heart in the fact that Americans in polls OPPOSE Bush's anti-gay amendment by about 6-4. Unfortunately, they also oppose gay marriage by a similar margin.

I hope you and your love can be together and happy. We are, in the long run, on the same side of this issue, and I have no interest in alienating you here. Good luck to you.

[foreigncorrespondent]

109. The thread is actually about...

...how are you handling the hate that is building up in you? It has nothing what so ever to do with the hate they give us. Hell I am used to their shit and can take it as a grain of salt.

When I talk about the hate building up in me, I am talking the hatred I am now experiencing for certain groups of people, who are dead set against my very life.

No Australia doesn't have gay marriage at the moment. We need to get rid of little Johnnie fuck face in order to actually get that right. But, we do have vertually all the same rights that heterosexual people have, including immigration rights, adoption rights, hospital visitation rights, hate crime laws, discrimination laws, you name it.

And no, I will not live in the United States illegally. And no, Sappho is unable to move to Australia at this time. She has her elderly sick mother to take care of. So you see, slow baby steps isn't a solution for us, or the rest of the American citizens who happen to be queer and in love with someone from another country.

As for what is happening in SF, well I am not about to get into that debate with you when it is now after 4am in the morning for me.

[Eloriel]

151. Backlash

First they ignore you
Then they ridicule you
Then they fight you
Then you win. -- Gandhi

The "fighting you" is the backlash. That's exactly the point that it's important NOT to give up or step back but to press forward even harder and more surely.

[noiretextatique]

125. if black people thought like that

we'd still be in chains. if women thought like that...we'd still be unable to vote. things will not change unless change is forced.

[rhino47]

8. Sorry not gay

But to say I`m pissed at * over the treatment of gays is a rash under statement.How can we all be stronger as a nation or society when we set out to punish,neglect,bash,stomp all over a segment of
our society.There is such a thing as a greater good.The greater good in this instance is understanding and compassion for gays.No one
gay,tranny or straight should be exempt from this fight.If we neglect gays rights then we all fail.If you can not protect the right of some then we all will suffer.To love who you wish is a basic human right.What kind of arrogance is it to say what my family your family or the neighbors family should look like?Two parents in a house is a blessing these days.Who is to say just because I`m straight that I`m the better parent?
This amendment will set this country back 100 years.I am sick of the attitude of the republican party that no one likes a queer.This has been established through the hate radio , through senators and on rnc conventions.They act as if gays are out to molest our kids and steal our spouses.They play on ignorant fears to install this hate
in people.
I hope there will be a strong fierce reaction amongst the gay community.I also hope that the all of america raises its voice in support.I know mine will be.
(rant all done)

[Zhade]

62. Thanks for that.

I'm one of those semi-closeted queers - only out to some people - and this climate is not making me feel like boldly proclaiming my bisexuality.

I was at work a couple of days ago, and my coworker (who does not know I'm queer) asked me point-blank how I felt about "the whole gay marriage thing". I told him that I'm for it. He said he was against it, with this look of repressed disgust on his face - no clue that he was hurting me with that disgust. The guy's kind of a friend, we get along at least, but if he knew I liked boys as well as girls, he'd stay away from me.

This nonsense about amending the Constitution just makes me shake my head. The traitors in the administration ignore the Constitution, except of course when it benefits them.

Just sickening and treasonous. I think this says it best:

[foreigncorrespondent]

80. rhino...

...you are absolutely correct.

The U.S. has been stopping on countries in the ME for years, and look what that brought them. And in turn, it hasn't made the country any stronger. All it has done is made a bunch of religious wacko's go insane and begin stripping the very rights off citizens backs.

First they attacked a womans right of choice, realized they couldn't at this time go much further with that, so now they attack the queers, hoping they can go a lot further with us. Next, they will be coming after another group, and then another group, and so on, until there are no groups left. Then what? Guess they will have to attack each other.

Thank you for your support, my friend. :)

[TahitiNut]

10. I'll take my mod hat off...

... and say that, even as a hopelessly straght male, I'm beyond appalled at the detestable Bigot-In-Chief. My family came to dinner tonight and got a sample of my 'military' vocabulary. Each day, the human sewage of the Busholini maladministration spews ever more detestable septic rhetoric of hate.

How do I cope? More walks around the block; more foul language hurled at the TV whenever His Effluence appears; and the occasional post on DU outside the mod closet where my fellow DUers-in-service have surely heard enough of my disgust for the Reichwing Pimps of Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

[foreigncorrespondent]

81. I think I might have to join...

...you for some of those long walks. LOL

I can't continue yelling at the tv or computer (my neighbours already think I am nuts.)

I really respect the mods so much right now. You guys are doing a wonderful job at keeping the bigotry down. I for one truly appreciate that. The stuff I do see wounds me to no end.

Sapph and I run several mailings list, and those can be a headache at times to moderate, but here, with 40,000 plus members, I could never do it. I would end up losing it to some idiot and be kicked out of DU forever.

[DrWeird]

11. Don't mind the bigots.

They are few and loud and stupid and probably posting under several identities.

Any real democrat and liberal is against bigotry. And as such is on your side. Ignore the freeper bigots.

This is a fight between good vs. evil. And if I may quote Popeye, "the good always winks over the bad."

[LeftCoast]

14. It just feels like all the crap that was below the surface is now

bubbling up. Till now people could gloss over their biases, now it's all on the line. We'll find out now who's for equal rights and who is against. My hope is that the brewing culture war will finally force people to decide whether they're for civil rights or against them. I realize that for non-gay folks, it's an uncomfortable topic that they're not so familiar dealing with, but that when they sit down and think about it reason will prevail. If my fellow citizens decide that my rights are important, I'll stay in this country...if not, I'm outta here.

Note: I've had a few margaritas so I'm probably not nearly as coherent as I think. :)

[foreigncorrespondent]

82. Funny you say that LC...

...I only just said to Sappho on the phone last night, that people are truly beginning to show their true colors now.

Yep, when our rights weren't out in the open like this, they could hide, but now that our rights are receiving so much attention they can no longer hide behind the veil of secrecy.

As for staying in the country, I haven't actually told Sappho seriously yet, to sell up everything and get the hell out, but Bush* gave reason for the haters to go out and do some real crimes, if that begins I swear to you, I will be ordering her to get the fuck out. And of course anyone else who wants to join her is more than welcome.

I would break bread with a lot of people on DU.

Sweetie Dahlingggg! I hope you had a few margaritas for me. :)

[LeftCoast]

117. I had enough margaritas for both of us and then some

:evilgrin:

Regarding leaving the country if The Amendment passes...I had a largish group of gay friends over last Sat. Two of them are in a similar situation as you (one a US citizen, the other foreign national). Anyway, the majority of us decided that if hate becomes codified in our Constitution we'd most likely leave.

I don't want to leave, but there are plenty of other countries out there that will treat me as a full citizen and who would appreciate my skills. Maybe even Australia? :)

[foreigncorrespondent]

134. You, my friend...

...are always welcome in the sunburnt country.

I am so glad you had margaritas for the both of us. I really needed some drinks yesterday. :)

[scottxyz]

123. I like your signature LeftCoast

Civil Rights - You're either for them or against them

[MichaelHarris]

15. words

Please don't take this the wrong way, I don't mean any disrespect at all. And I sincerely don't want to offend anyone but my little brother died of AIDS a few years back and reading your post with the word "queer" tossed about bothered me a bit. I don't know, words associated with hate, no matter who uses them disturbs me. I'm sorry about bring this up. I wrestled with myself before I did it.
Michael

[adamblast]

18. For better or worse, the word queer is back to stay...

...most gays below the age of about 30 think of it as a badge of honor. I'm 45, and remember it as the worst childhood taunt you could throw at another kid... All I can suggest is that you try to resolve your own feelings about it... It's still used negatively from time to time, but mostly it's considered a positive "insider's word" at this point.

[MichaelHarris]

28. reinventing words

I understand that. Its my feelings of the way I used to hear it used and I should deal with that. Its something I will work on. I really wrestled with saying anything. Its hard to see or hear some words. I know its used within the various communities as a badge or a comedic sort of way but I remember the way its been used in my lifetime. Things said about my brother. Stuff like that. I can learn to accept it but I'll still cringe. :)

[Zhade]

63. My condolences on your brother.

:hug:

[foreigncorrespondent]

83. Michael...

...I am truly sorry about your loss. Everytime I hear of someone dying it pains me, but when I hear of another victim to AIDS, it truly wrecks me.

I understand what you are saying about the words, but please understand something. Haters used the words as insults for the gay community, but instead of taking it as insults we turned it around, and now, I am bloody well proud to be known by that word.

I truly mean no disrespect to anyone when I use it. I do use the word a lot, so please if you are offended by it, just ignore my threads, or place me on ignore. I won't be offended. I just don't want to stir up emotions in you, my friend. :)

[MichaelHarris]

90. Nooooo

I would never do that. Put someone on ignore. I take that back, I would put Bill Ore illy on ignore. The more I think about it I realize that its good a person or group can take words of hate and make them someting to be proud of. I think I had a "knee jerk" reaction. You should use your voice and words proudly, at every chance you get. After all thats all we really have.

Michael :)

[foreigncorrespondent]

98. I think I would put the entire...

...repuke party on ignore if I could. ;)

Yes it is something to be very proud of. And something we should strive to achieve.

Let them hate us, it only shows that they hate true core values. :)

I understand you having a reaction, my friend. What you would have witnessed your brother go through is something that would haunt me for life as well. I certainly don't hold someones emotions against them.

Emotions is something we can't control. And that my friend is something the haters of this world will never understand, after all, love is an emotion, right?

You take care, my friend. Keep fighting the good fight. :)

[MichaelHarris]

112. article

You know Aids patients get some weird diseases before they die. He had the worst, those lesions on his brain. He was 30 and it was hard seeing someone that young loosing their facilities. If you ever want to hear a horror story ask me about his death. It includes a deranged nursing home, a hurricane, a man who doesn't know who he is wandering through town during the storm and laying down in a field and dying, wild animals, and my wife and I looking for him.

I just wrote an editorial and posted it. Its not as sad. :) If you would like to read it, its called, "Founding Fathers and Same Sex Marriages". I posted it in the editorial section. I'm not too hip to the rules and where stuff goes. I'm a newbie here. I have a website, www.ypeace.org for people to submit stuff. It's kinda new and plain looking right now. I hope it grows. I enjoy writing but sometimes I get so angry when I write it comes off as mixed up rambling. :) I'll keep trying though.

[foreigncorrespondent]

135. I will certainly...

...be checking your Web site, and your article out.

If you ever feel the need to share your brothers story, I will be more than happy to listen, my friend. :)

[Mick Knox]

16. Isnt "queer" derogatory?

I would never call someone a "queer" .. just wondering.. or is this like a thing where ... well never mind. Struck me as an odd title of a post... When I was in school 20 years ago it was derogatory.. I guess im behind the times.

[DrWeird]

17. Depends on the context.

And if you are surprised to see it in this context, yup, you're behind the times.

We're here. We're queer. Get used to it.

[Mick Knox]

23. well go get em..

I got no probs.. I believe people can do what they want.. in fact.. I thought it was the pseudo foundation of this country... too bad it takes one step forward and 20 steps back..

Cheers!

[hlthe2b]

27. the word still "jars" me and I do know that it is commonly used in the gay

community, just as some African Americans have "taken back the 'N' word."

But, I'd like to think that there would be appreciation that many refuse to use the word because of its earlier unpleasant implications. Respect is a two-way street, so perhaps you might give the poster just a little benefit of the doubt for wanting not to offend you or others with the word, even as you educate them to the new context for reviving the word.

[Mick Knox]

32. I wasnt offended... takes allot more than that...

I was wondering.. because I know that show uses queer... i dont live in a city so i can admittedly be caught off gaurd by things.... yall big city folks crack me up... lol... thought I'd ask and see if it had changed.. which apparently it has. :shrug:

[5thGenDemocrat]

46. First of all

I am for full civil and human rights for all civil humans.
Second, as I am also a 47-year-old heterosexual male, I would never use the "q-word" to describe one of my homosexual peers.
I don't think it's so much because I'm an old fuddy-duddy (though I may well be), but rather simply that I'm not one of the group. It doesn't bother me when a gay friend says it, it bothers me a lot when a straight friend does.
John
I guess I could close this note by saying that Dopey's stupidity really ticked me off today but, hell, what else is new?

[wickerwoman]

66. "Queer Theory" has been well established in academic circles

for 20+ years. It's a chapter in many literary theory text books probably because it's easier to say than "gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, etc. theory".

So the context really makes a big difference. I'm not offended when a straight academic uses it to make a point about a Henry James novel. I can understand people having a visceral reaction to it, but I'd say "queer" has been recovered almost as much as "gay" and certainly much more than the N-word.

[LeftCoast]

20. I'm and out and proud queer

Just plain tired of trying to hide. I'm a big ol' queer and I don't give a fuck who know/cares/hates.

:shrug:

[LincolnMcGrath]

92. No 'Only when Kamika asks if it is offensive'

:wow: :shrug: :wow:

[JohnOneillsMemory]

118. Groups make words their own to defuse them, like blacks and 'n'-word.

It's a means of self-affirmation to fight denial and derision.

[MurikanDemocrat]

19. This straight gal is behind you 100%

Be strong, there are more of us behind you than you realize. It's the vocal one's who seem to gravitate to this topic. I haven't seen a lot of the liberal side that you are referring to but it's just natural that the bigots come out in greater numbers and louder.

The fact that Bush is using you offends me greatly. And I'm not going to sit back and take it either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=393332&mesg_id=393332

[Redneck Socialist]

22. I gotcha back.

The amendment idea is going to kill bush. I've been typing this all night. It is simply not going to fly. Most folks don't care too much about this. They are a lot more worried about the economy, the war, what have you. Sure if you ask them they probably say they don't favor gay marriage, but there is a long way from that to "let's change the Constitution," a very long way.

I too would like our candidates to come out strongly against the amendment and they will, just as soon as they see how badly it is going to play. It is too their shame that they don't see it now, but they will be there, better late than never.

[adamblast]

25. How am I handling it? Not too well, sometimes...

...but I guess that's okay.

I've been cranky at work all day, and spending all my time on the discussion boards venting, instead of getting my work done.

There's no way *NOT* to take it personally when the country you love turns against you. Not that they were ever for us, but I guess it's more official than ever now.

For the next year, one of the main topics of debate and discussion will be whether the constitution should be rewritten to deny my rights. And the majority will be *for* it.

[eeyore]

26. Don't fight it, use it

I'm not gay, but I support your plight, and am sorry you are feeling so attacked.

I live in Oregon, and we went through this in the early 90's. There's a group called the Oregon Citizen's Alliance that managed to bring to a vote an amendment to the state constitution declaring that there should be no "special rights" allotted to the glbt citizens of Oregon. It was thankfully voted down, but it was an incredibly divisive time - probably the worst I've ever experienced. Portland is a very queer friendly city, but it was gut-wrenching.

I worked for a brewery at the time, and someone put a Queer Nation sticker on the beer truck I was driving that said "BUTTFUCKING IS FUN! QUEER NATION". I didn't know the sticker was there, and was approached by a frothing fundie whacko who was threatening to beat me bloody for exposing his child to the sticker. Luckily I diffused the situation by offering to call the cops and let them decide if it was illegal to have the sticker on the truck. Truly frightening!

Anyway, this is sort of a replay of that whole time for me. On the upside, things in Portland are more queer friendly than ever, and we now have same sex partner benefits for city workers and most of the larger companies here. I'm sure the fundies are still as rabid as ever, but they have been unsuccessful in molding the state in their image.

This whole thing will pass, but it will not be a very tough time to be queer. If what happened here is any indication of what might happen nation-wide, things might actually get better for you in the long run.

Keep your chin up, and know that there are a lot of straight folks out there who truly are for 100% equal rights. Don't give up or give in - you deserve nothing but the best.

matt

[noiretextatique]

29. at work today, a friend told me a pompous blowhard

a twice-divorced woman, was going on about her opposition to gay marriage because it "just isn't right." :eyes: frankly...i ignore the few of this ilk i encounter.
it's a lot more hurtful when it comes from people i know to be allies on other issues, but who feels perfectly fine asking me to sit in the closet until a more "convienent" time. i've been giving my standard speech a lot lately:
unless you believe this country is a christian theocracy, your personal religious beliefs cannot be used as justification to limit the civil rights of anyone else. instead...your beliefs should govern your own behavior, not determine laws in a SECULAR society. don't like gay marriage: don't marry someone of the same gender as you are. don't like abortion: don't have one. don't "believe" in homosexuality...don't fuck a homosexual. it's so simple.
all of this marriage talk...it's just making me want to get married...something i never really wanted to do.
if you can't beat 'em, why not piss 'em off even more? :hi:

[AgadorSparticus]

30. I think more liberals-straight or not- are behind you than you realize....

But you won't see us on the news or in print because the media don't want you to know we are here. Divide and conquer. So they paint this picture that liberals are anti-gay and that we are deserting you. But that's just part of the spin machine. Don't believe the hype. There are more people pulling for your rights than you will ever hear about.

[ropi]

34. "not gay...as a heterosexual"

dear fellow Du-Er's:

why is it that our straight brothers and sisters have to constantly begin their comments with the phrases "i am not gay, but. . ." or "as a straight man or woman I believe"?

This is beginning to really alarm me. Will someone please explain why they feel they have to frame their comments with those?

[Mick Knox]

36. As a not queer....

I just dont know


LOL

just kidding.. no one get ruffled.. was a play on my posts above.

I support em 100%.

[tobius]

39. probably has to do with the title of the post

looked like an invitation for queers to respond, and so as not to misrepresent the queer community, they are distinguishing themselves.

saw it in a different post that went out to women and the men who responded identified themselves.

[Solly Mack]

42. While reading this thread I noted the same thing

It could be for any number of reasons... and not all of them suspect.


That said...and without the preface -to the original poster

I wish I knew what to tell you ... how to deal with the anger..born of frustration. I haven't figured it out myself yet. I do know that within the last few days my anger has grown that this country is even battling over something so fundamental as civil rights. I know it's called a "struggle" for a reason but day gawds...this is such a no-brainer. Civil rights for ALL.

[hlthe2b]

48. Perhaps it is as simple as heterosexuals wanting to let gay/lesbian

DUers know that they have their support. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

[MurikanDemocrat]

50. I felt it was relevant to point out that one does not have to be gay to

consider this issue important.

This issue doesn't affect my personal life, but it does affect me as a citizen.

[AgadorSparticus]

53. to let you know not all straights are freeping homophobes?

or that the entire democratic party has not deserted your community? or that not all so called liberals have lost their minds and ideals? you're nickpicking at the wrong group, hon. it's all love here....

[ropi]

89. thanks everyone

my post wasn't intended to flame and i do apologize if it was taken that way by any person. the last thing i wanted to be was a 'flaming homo!' <grin>

with that said--i started to notice it here and elsewhere in discussions and i knew that i'd get honest answers from DU-Er's.

Thanks for allowing me the space in this forum to ask my question.

Keep up the discussion and please keep up the fight.

Best,

Rob

[BruinAlum]

72. The thread is addressed to "DU queers", so I feel it appropriate to

identify myself as straight if I respond.

This is not just a gay issue. This is a civil rights issue. Heteros should be just as concerned about this as the gay community, but they are the ones suffering the personal consequences and pain.

[AngryYoungMan]

35. If I wasn't so acutely aware of the pain and alienation...

...I would applaud having this buried divisive issue finally being brought to the frontmost burner. I'm straight but I have quite a few close friends who are queer. (I hate pointing out that I have gay friends; it sounds so defensive. Nevertheless in this context I have to.)

In the eighties I began to realize just how screwed up America's ideas about homosexuality are. I watched my conservative relatives go see the movie Philadelphia, applaud the movie, weep at the end...and then in practically in the same breath complain about "faggots." I learned a lot about gay issues in college, and saw quite a few people come out, there. (Chicago) I know several people whom I think are in deep denial about their orientation.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Mel Gibson has propelled himself to his new role as spokesmodel for the religious right. He's been a gay-baiter for years and years.

Anyway, I'm shocked and sickened. I'm sorry if this posting sounds like I'm reciting credentials. In Manhattan, New York City (where I live) people are not really capable of hating Bush more than we already do...but he keeps making it possible. Almost everybody I know "has to leave the room" when he comes on TV.

I don't have any single point to make here. I'm just pissed off, and I can only imagine what an awful week this is for queers everywhere in the world. "Land of the free" indeed.

[corporatewhore]

37. like kirk talkin to a computer

t well it frustrates me to no end it is sorta like when kirk talks to computer when i try to comprehend their logic and then it frustrates me that people on the left even question whether we should have spines and stound our ground instead of being beholden to rw propaganda and bigots

[guitar man]

38. I'm straight and in your corner

I live in the buckle of the bible belt and the debate is thick and interesting at times. I have met some outright haters,but am finding more fear than hate at times.

I was talking to a fundie wingnut woman earlier this evening at the 7-11. she expressed her fear that the US would become like Sodom and Gomorrah and suffer the same fate if gay marriage is legal.

I asked her what God told Lot to do in that case? Leave,right?
She came back scared that Europe and Canada were even more liberal than the US and didn't know where she would go. I suggested Iran,Jordan,Syria etc.,since I was pretty sure she would never have to worry about legal gay marriage in those countries. Should have seen the look on her face!

[eleny]

40. Bernie Ward on fire about all this tonight

The news during the break even reported that Log Cabin Republicans have taken a vocal stand against it. And another group is petitioning all over the state to sue California over it. People are not taking this laying down!
http://www.kgoam810.com/

[Misinformed01]

41. You don't have to "defend" yourself to anyone

particularly on DU.

Aren't homophobes on DU pretty well trashed by the other folks (including me, I can't stand them.)

And did you get your PM from me earlier?

[Cronus Protagonist]

43. They're what the "ignore" feature is for....

I have quite a few bigots and scapegoaters in mine.

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[ArwenJade]

44. You have a right to be angry

My gay friends at work are angry. I'm angry. Even my grandma is angry.
But don't think that hetero liberals aren't supporting you, because we are.
For me, there is just so much evil going on that even though I am totally against the amendment, it isn't the number one issue on my mind. Everyone is different and has different priorities. But I will do my best to support the gay community through this.

[dawn]

47. I support you 100%!!

[Bushknew]

49. Less intrusive government É

is what Republicans always say they want, well?

IÕm straight and I donÕt understand how there can be gay Republicans, but such is the diversity of life.

[guitar man]

51. What repukes mean

By "less intrusive government" is less intrusive in fiscal matters,especially when it pertains to corporations,rich corporate owners and the "upper crust" and their money in general.

Their real agenda is to dictate what is permissible in our personal lives while they turn the US from a nation into a giant "marketplace" hwrer the upper 1%-2% are the ruling class and the working class becomes their servants.An "intrusive" government would not allow this to happen. The words "Promote the General Welfare" in the preamble to the Constitution don't mean anything in their eyes.

"Tort Reform"= the rich will have no responsibility for their actions. "Free Trade"=cheap labor,both here and abroad."Rugged Individualisim"=Sam Walton's kids pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

The thought of less intrusive government as it relates to every individual's PERSONAL LIFE has never occurred to them.How could they have control that way?

[Bushknew]

52. Yes, thereÕre just a bunch of hypocrites

Uhhhh, I can't wait till Nov

I wish we could impeach him now.

[guitar man]

133. I wish we could break out the tar and feathers! <nt>

[scottxyz]

54. I'm glad Bush finally "outed" himself as a homophobe

He's gonna hang himself with this.

People who might not support gay marriage probably don't think it's worth amending the Constitution over.

And it exposes Bush's phony "compassionate conservatism" and shows how desperate he is to find an issue he can talk about - since he can't talk about foreign policy, jobs, education, healthcare, environment anymore...

All he can say now is "Get the gays!"

Showing he's not that much different from a Pat Buchanan.

[radfringe]

55. It's VALUING FAMILIES, not FAMILY VALUES

that the issue of gay marriage has reached proportions of a "proposed" constitutional amendment is an indication that bush* can't defend his own record

time to divide the country some more, and beat the "family values" drum

if bush*, et al, were truly concerned about family values, they would show it by valuing families. Cutting programs which help families is NOT the way to strengthen families, nor does it demonstrate tht you value families.

Corporate tax breaks, and wealthy-fare tax cuts do not help families.

family values emerge from strong families - but if you don't value families you don't get "strong" family values. The strength of any country lies in it's people and it's families - the more bush* and GOPers cut programs the more they undercut our country's strength.

[Bhaisahab]

56. Call Mary Cheney

Enlist her. You should get her to come out against the proposed laws!

[foreigncorrespondent]

84. I can't call her...

...but if someone has a direct email addy for her, I would be more than glad to try and recruit her.

[JCMach1]

57. Remember how Buchanan's speech to the '92 convention

went over.

This will go over like a lead balloon.

[Zhade]

59. #1. Yes #2. Poorly.

NT!

[Fight_n_back]

61. There are always more than two types

There are people like Barney Frank who think it is better to go slow. I would normally defer to Frank on a Gay matter, or most matters for that matter (?!).

I support everyone's right to love, it is such a rare thing. I only hate bush because he doesn't really care at all about gay marriage but is using it as a cynical attempt to divide. Please don't let him do so.

Democrats are not going to openly support gay marriage because they don't have to...they are getting those votes anyway. Just like bush doesn't have to try that hard for the corporate criminal vote. It is strategy not lack of humanity that leads many to wothhold their open support.

Barbara Boxer will probably lose her job over this issue, although it could also be said that she may lose it because she is unwilling to take a strong stand.

Anyway...have fun

[Bundbuster]

64. You want a fuckin' war, chimpy? Bring it on.

As leader of the party of fear, guilt, divisiveness, and greed, you've finally given total exposure to your rancid underbelly.

I was mad when the Reagan gang huddled behind closed doors in the early '80's, formulating their murderous "Shhh...AIDS is taking out, you know, the queers, niggers, drug addicts, whores."

I was ashamed to live in Colorado in 1993 when the Family Values hatemongers conspired to dehumanize Gays with their infamous "Amendment 2," which ultimatley pitted neighbor against neighbor and wasted millions of dollars in lawsuits all the way to the SCOTUS, only to arrive back at an embitterred square one. We still have not healed.

Now you want a full-scale Constitutional War of hate, marshalling all that's evil from your prescious religious reich, caring not about the longterm National scars simply to gain election-year advantage. Well I say Bring It On, you slimy, hypocritical, silver-spoon, faux-Christian fascist. I say to you exactly the words I addressed to your Colorado Congresspuppet Marilyn Musgrave:

"I'd like to know from where you evolve such bigoted hatred against your fellow humans. I've often said that if every Gay person in America were to "come out" tomorrow, only the most extreme hatemongers such as Fred Phelps would continue their homophobia. May I ask you to close your eyes for a moment and envision that scenario...suddenly people from every walk of life - countless friends, politicians, CEO's, ministers, teachers, soldiers, atheletes, policemen, firemen, doctors, lawyers, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers - most of whom you held in highest esteem the day before - all of them out en masse before your eyes and touching your life. The only reason this has not happened already is the guilt, fear, and shame which people like you have buried them in from the day of their birth.

You are a disgrace to the very concepts of "Christianity" and "Family Values." Your party has become a supreme instrument of fear, greed, and divisive guilt. Every time a shamed, marginalized, fearful homosexual decides that suicide is a better option than living in the constant shadow of your oppression, I want you to reflect on what your "values" are contributing to our society. I want you to pray that the next Gay life senselessly lost is not a "loved one" in your own family."

[Hekate]

65. I'm not gay; I'm not even very cheerful anymore*

>...I am asking the DU queer community and our supporters to tell us
> if you are experiencing something similar to what myself and others
> are going through. And if so, how are you coping with it?

Foreigncorrespondent & partner, to answer your questions: Yes, and Not very well.

What's happening to all of us is terrible beyond belief; what's happening to our friends/relatives/cohorts in the LGBT community is just another twist of the knife.

Hate? I hate the Bushite cabal more than Nixon himself, and that’s astonishing. They are worse on so many levels it beggars the imagination.

I'm here to tell you that I don't know whether our side will win the election in November, but that I do know there are many thousands of us working to make this nation and world a better place. Some are taking much bigger risks than I ever knowingly could, but I've chosen a couple of arenas to do my work in and I try to keep at it even when I feel myself faltering as I have these past several weeks. We were meant for these times; we may be the Shambhala Warriors. At least it's a positive thought. http://www.newsociety.com/News/News05/sham.html

I'm here to tell you that no one of us can do it all, but if we divide up the work (as opposed to letting ourselves be divided) and trust that other people are doing what they can, we will actually accomplish quite a lot.

I'm here to remind you (and myself, over and over) that you have to remember to take care of your own self and take care of your relationships, so that what you hold dearest is not destroyed by your anger at Everything Bush. Hold on to each other. Hold on to each other.

Under taking care of yourself: A year ago I went on a retreat given by Joanna Macy, an American Buddhist and environmental/social activist. She shared a powerful prayer/meditation by Caitriona Reed (a transgender woman, poet, and Buddhist teacher) called "Touching the Earth for Our Adversaries." It blew me away; I later found at this site:
http://eces.org/new/index.php/325
and on Joanna's website:
http://www.joannamacy.net/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Touching the Earth for Our Adversaries (first two stanzas)

You, who deliberately engage in the destruction of the environment
for your own profit,
you show me how much I value what is honest, what is generous,
what has been clearly thought through,
what is expressive of love for this planet home
and our human and nonhuman fellow beings.
So I bow to you in gratitude
and touch the Earth.

You bring forth in me the passion and love I feel
for this life-bearing land, its soil, air and waters,
and the beings they nurture;
the passion I feel for integrity and strong, sustainable community.
Because of the strength with which I resist your actions,
I have seen how strong my love and passion really are.
I bow to you in gratitude
and touch the Earth . . .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is the acknowledgment that the adversary — in our case the Bush, Rove, Ashcroft et al. gang — evokes in us our highest values. Thank you for giving me occasion to remember to look it up.

Only two more things. One is that our culture is shifting toward tolerance and acceptance, even if it's a long way from perfect harmony. I think it has something to do with the number of families who have had a son/daughter/brother/cousin/co-worker come out, and who have learned that this person is still the same person. It's true that there are still some families so rabidly homophobic that they can't even accept their own child, but there are far more who love and move on. I watched Barney Frank on Nightline tonight (he's been re-elected 12 times, quite a feat); I think his statement is accurate that the American people are largely okay with civil unions but largely not okay with gay marriage. He's not the enemy for saying that—-he's just saying what is true at this moment in time.

The other thing is that Mayor Newsome is leading the mayoral equivalent of the sit-ins at Selma, Alabama. It's civil disobedience. This is not the victory, it's only the beginning of this particular civil rights march. I think what Newsome is doing is grand and brave and risky and rather scary in this election year. Will Bush make this issue our Nader/nadir for 2004? We only know that there is no perfect time to change laws and to go about making society change its ways.

Women went to prison and even died for the right to vote. African-Americans sat-in at lunch counters and tried enrolling at Ol'Miss; racists answered with fire hoses and police dogs. Finally, sufficient public opinion changed, and the laws along with it, because there are fewer people committed to misogyny and racism than there are people who would rather do the right thing when they can’t pretend away the wrong thing any more.

In both cases, nothing would have changed without people being willing to break the old unjust laws and bear the consequences, and do so in such a manner that the full force of the injustice was brought before the American public. Misogynists and racists all resisted mightily, claiming that "natural law" and common decency were being violated, claiming that if the old ways changed American society would rot and crumble. Sound familiar?

Bush will not get his amendment-—ours is about the most difficult constitution on the planet to amend, and if we're smart we won't let him change the conversation away from his failures in war and peace. Bush and/or his allies like Ralph Reed have been muttering about this issue and others from the perceived "gay agenda" ever since he ran for president-—this just gives them the excuse they needed to go full frontal with it. It also strips away the "Big Tent" façade from the GOP —- clue in the Log Cabin Republicans and remind them that if it’s fiscal sanity they’re looking for, they can find it among the Dean Democrats, and if they want a Big Tent the Dems are the only show in town.

I started writing this response when there were only 10 replies but I had to put it down to do something else. By the time I came back a couple of hours later there were 60+. I feel like I’ve written too much, but your post really moved me. We’re all in this together, we all are having a helluva hard time coping, and I hope that we can grasp that even if this year is not the year for the Dems to slug it out with the right-wingnuts on the gay marriage issue, the work is in fact continuing all the time. I feel so happy for the couples who traveled to San Francisco to get married (just the look on so many of their faces made me cry like a mom) -— but in my mind it is civil disobedience in the tradition of Ghandi and King, and it ain’t gonna be easy following through. Bless ‘em all.

Hekate

[foreigncorrespondent]

86. Sappho and I...

...hold onto each other as much as possible when we are together, but unfortuntely we are true victims of the bigoted hate that runs wild in the U.S. Meaning Sappho, even though she is a a citizen of the United States by birth, she doesn't actually have the right to sponsor me for immigration.

I just said to her last night on the phone that if we were together right now, the hatred wouldn't be affecting us nearly as much as it is. But it is because we rely on gay rights passing in the United States in order for us to be together sooner than later, if affects us a lot worse. And I do get very hurt when I see someone on the left tell us to shut up and move slowly. How slowly are we meant to move? Wait until Sappho and I are so old that we are actually too old to enjoy being together, rather than being 8, miles apart?

I agree with you that what Newsom doing is briliiant. He is truly the queer rights "Rosa Parks" moment.

I understand that this fight is only just beginning, and believe me, I am willing to stand and fight the right. It is when I have to fight people from the left, that things begin to get very hard.

I agree that the FMA will not pass, and as I said in an earlier response, I do believe Bush* has signed his own political death warrant for the move he took yesterday.

Appeasing the religious right isn't worth 80% of a nation being against you. It is a no win situation for him, period.

[duhneece]

101. The prayer/meditation really touched me

It awakened some core strenth in me...which is really wonderful as I too often feel angry, desolate, disgusted, sad about the whold current (mis)administration.
When my children were 6 and 16 (early 90's), I discovered my 16 year old son's high school was not allowed to mention the 'c' word (condom) in any context. At about the same time, I had friends who'd been diagnosed (and some died) of AIDS. Several of us organized, began a HIV/AIDS education and support group here in our little, very conservative town. In all of New Mexico, we got the only after-school organization to listen to the kids, answer questions. We spoke at Rotary, other service clubs. I was fortunate in having a mom who grew up in Laguna Beach California and she always had gay friends. I explained to my 6 yr old daughter that most men wanted to marry women, most women want to marry men, a few men and women never want to marry, and some men want to marry men, some women want to marry women. She understood that concept very well.
I support full civil rights for everyone. It's so simple.
Know many of us have 'got your back' and love & support the gay community.

[kayell]

67. It's been an emotional roller coaster

When the Mass Supreme Court came out with their decision, I was delighted. I knew that equal protection would eventually be supported somewhere, but some days it seems like it will never come. The SF. OMG, the incredible wonder of seeing pictures of hundreds of joyous couples finally being given their rights. The joy in the faces of those performing the ceremonies. Even hearing the hate spewed by the wingers could barely blunt my delight.

I was far more effected than I expected to be by *s announcement. I knew it was coming, I find everything that comes out of that reptilian mouth repulsive, yet still, I felt betrayed. Like it or not, that "man" holds the position of President and here he was taking an unbelievably divisive position, and supporting changing our Constitution to make it eliminate peoples rights.

Shock, Betrayal, Fury

Then I came here to DU. It was unbelievable. Posters with high counts echoing the same f-ing stupid rw bigoted talking points as the worst hardcore evangelicals. Stupidly I keep wading into their filth and arguing with them. It's like arguing with racists, complete with "some of my best friends are gay" statements from someone who has just told me that I am a second class citizen.

More Shock, Betrayal, Fury (more reasonably than having expected * to behave well)

Talked to my daughter last night. She was comforting, saying it will come, they won't manage to do this. DD - "If you don't approve of gay marriage, don't have one"

Hearing from supportive posters here at DU helps, but it still upsets me that more people don't see how important this issue is. Even some who say they support gay marriage are upset that WE saddled them with this "wedge" issue now.

Thank (whoever) that there are DUers here who get it. I need to concentrate only on them for my mental health, but I WANT everyone here to understand that this really is a big deal. I'm not even in a relationship now, but this IS A BIG DEAL. This is the most basic of rights, the one that allows us to be equal to heterosexuals, the one that acknowledges that our loves are real.

The jury is still out for me on DU, whether I need a vacation, whether I will put tons of people on ignore, whether some of those people will get a clue, or whether I need a more friendly forum. I'll see.


Disclaimer: this post is written in response to the initial post. I have not yet read the responses.

[foreigncorrespondent]

87. The anger and hatred stirred up in me...

...has also been stirred up by bigoted creeps here on DU, with high post counts and stars next to their name.

DU is a wonderful place to come and catch up with freinds you have made, and just debate with other like minded induviduals, until, threads begin popping up that are to do with some gay happening.

I remember when the sodomy laws got overturned, Sappho and I were so bloody happy, until we came to DU to see quite a few bigots raining on our parade.

Then Mass. supreme court ruled in favor of gay marriages and gave the legislature ex amount of time to work something out. Sappho actually broke that news to me. It was a very touching moment. One I will remember for a long time to come.

We came to DU, and again, we found bigoted assholes deciding to rain on our parade again. This time we didn't even have a chance to pop the cork on the champagne.

I don't blame Admin, and I don't blame the mods for the bigots. I blame the bigots.

I mean, how can a mod remove a post that a queer will see as being bigoted, but the mod might not? And how can a mod remove a post, if the bigot chooses to say something and then edit the post before a mod gets to see it?

When I talk about stealth bigotry here at DU, it is the people who hide their hatred amongst words, or those who edit their posts after saying something awful that I mean by that term.

You would think that a person who claims to be a liberal would understand the meaning of humanity, and understand when a queer person has said their words offend them, that they truly offend them.

[kayell]

97. Stealth bigotry

Yes, that is the stuff that really gets to me. When posters here present themself as oh, so reasonable, some of my best friends are gay, but marriage is different. When people just refuse to understand that this is a real civil rights issue, that seperate is not equal, and then act as though it is outrageous for us to tell them this makes us angry.

The people who say, oh really, I am on your side, but this is asking too much, too soon, just wait. They want to give us little tastes from the banquet, but we are not to actually join them at the table. Grrrrr

[foreigncorrespondent]

99. Exactly that!

And it is because this is coming from people on the left that is does get to us so badly. We expect it from the right, but we certainly don't expect it from people who claim to be liberal.

Well I don't care, I am a gate crasher, and if I want to sit at the main table, I bloody well will.

[outinforce]

106. Help Me to Understand

I am perhaps on of those posters with high counts that you are speaking of.

You post tells me that this is a very important issue for you, so I want to be as sensitive as I can be in asking you what I want to ask.

I should let you know that I am a gay guy, 52 years old.

One of the things you said in your post struck me.

It is this: "This is the most basic of rights, the one that allows us to be equal to heterosexuals, the one that acknowledges that our loves are real."

What I need some help understanding is why the love I share with another man or with other men is any less "real" without the acknowledgement of the law. I have, for more than thirty years, loved a number of men, and I consider that love to be every bit as real as the love between my married sisters and their husbands. I don't think that that love that I have had has been any less "real" simply because society has chosen not to validate it.

I validate it. That, for me anyway, is all that really matters.

Perhaps I am missing something that you see. Could you help me to understand the connection between the reality of the love between two or more people and society's acknowledgement of that love?

[foreigncorrespondent]

108. out...

...it is simple really, we don't need to validate our love, we need equality. Not separate and think it is equal, but full on equality.

We are all born human beings. They are the ones who are demonizing us, it hasn't been the other way around.

People tell me they won't accpet us so long as we keep forcing our "way" of life on them. Well my answer to that is, firstly, is their heterosexuality a "way" of life? Then I would ask them one simple question, how are we forcing our lives on you, when all we ask is for equality and after that, to be left alone to live our lives?

They are the ones forcing their ways on us. I am not a religious person, and I for one do not appreciate Bush* and his party of bigoted fools preaching to me what is right, and what is wrong.

If we are wrong, then why did God creat us in the first place?

I hope this makes some sense to you. It is almost 4am for me, and so I am not thinking as clearly now.

[kayell]

111. Our lives and loves are of course equally valid in a "spiritual" sense

but so long as the laws of this land treat us differently, even should they try to establish "seperate but equal" civil unions for gays and lesbians, we will not have achieved equality. Because the marriage laws regulate who we love and bind to, and the benefits and recognition accorded by those unions, they go to the root of what it is in this society not to be heterosexual.

[outinforce]

113. I Disagree.

"Because the marriage laws regulate who we love and bind to,"

I disagree.

I will still choose to love and bind to other gay men -- even if there is no change in the current laws, and even if there is an amendment to the US Constitution banning marriage between two people of the same gender.

I "regulate" who I love and bind to -- not the state.

It's my own way of dealing with homophobia.

[kayell]

114. Look at the rest of the sentance: and the benefits and recognition

Because the marriage laws regulate who we love and bind to, and the benefits and recognition accorded by those unions, they go to the root of what it is in this society not to be heterosexual.

[lcooksey]

69. First I was furious, then I started to laugh

I really do think the idea of "separate but equal" civil unions is disgraceful. I want marriage. But it's a sign of how far we've come as a country in the last ten years that when Bush made his speech he said states should be allowed to set up alternatives to marriage for same-sex couples.

When Vermont enacted civil unions their was a huge uproar in the state. The following legislative voting session saw a backlash with a bare minimum of civil union supporters retaining their seats. By the voting session after that the issue was dead and settled. The Massachusetts legislature will never pass a gay marriage amendment that does not allow civil unions. And if it does pass this year, by the time it comes up for its second vote in the legislature next year there will be thousands of same-sex couples in the state, and the sky will still be standing. The chance of the people of Mass voting to make it part of their constitution the year after that is very low.

I'm only slightly disappointed that Kerry and Edwards, in their responses to Bush's speech, said they don't favor gay marriage but they are 100% behind civil unions with all the same rights as marriage. If the Dem candidate will support me and my wife having the same rights under federal law as any married couple, why should I care what it's called? I can always fight to change the name to marriage ten years from now. Or to open up civil unions to differently-sexed couples who don't like the religious overtones of "marriage".

I skimmed the transcript of last night's Larry King Live where SF mayor Newsom, gay actor Chad Allen, and two wingnuts were discussing the issue. The wingnuts come across as exactly what they are -- bigots.

We've got a fight ahead of us, but we're winning. It's inevitable. It's just a matter of how long it takes. If the wingnuts want to hate me, let them. The more they look like Fred Phelps to the rest of the country the quicker they'll lose support.

[Sgt. Peppers]

76. Im not gat, but you still should have freedom to do as you chose.

:(

[Sgt. Peppers]

77. Im so stupid, I ment I am not gay (duh!)

Stupid yes, gay no.

[foreigncorrespondent]

88. Not even stupid, my friend. (n/t)

[buddhamama]

85. i'm not handling "it" very well.

i am extrememly angry!

I am in this fight till the end.

Equality and Justice for ALL.

[outinforce]

93. "Hate"? Give Me A Break!

I am most likely in the minority here. That's nothing new. I'm used to it.

And while I appreciate you concern for how those of us who are queer are handling the "hate", I hate seeing the word hate mis-used.

I frankly do not see efforts to define "marriage" as the union between one man and one woman as "hate".

I do think that the efforts of the HRC and other gay groups to win acceptance (which is more than mere "tolerance") of queers in all aspects of life has had the effect you yourself are describing -- folks "hating" people who disagree with them on this issue.

It is my own view that gay marriage is not a big deal. I honestly do not understand why some gay people are so intent on adopting for themselves an institution that has shackled straight people and which causes, in many cases, people to "cheat" and lie. If two people are so deeply committed to each other that they want to pledge to themselves their undying love and fidelity, then fine --- let them do it. And whether they are gay or straight, why do they need to have a piece of paper from the state saying that the state somehow "blesses" their union together? Their pledge should be to each other -- not to the state.

The other "danger" I see in this whole flap over gay marriages is that it will involve the state in determining that some gay relationships are OK, and others are not. The state will, in effect, say that two gay people who wish to pledge their undying love, fidelity, and all the rest to each other is just fine. But the state will not "bless" relationships involving more than two gay folks. I happen to know more than a few gay people who are in such relationships, and their relationships are just as much real and genuine and deeply-held as those gay folks who are so unfortunate as to have found only one person to marry. What are we to tell the gay people who wish to marry more than one other person? That they are not worthy of having their relationships blessed by the state?

I'm dealing quite well with the "hate".

[foreigncorrespondent]

100. I suggest you go back and read...

...my original post, and then give me a break!

I did not mis-use the word hate. You have taken what I said and turned my words completely around.

I was not referring to what the idiots on the right side of the fence are doing. I was actually referring to the idiots on the left side of the fence who have been spouting the same shit at us, for the last X amount of months.

They win. They got to me. I now hate them with a passion. Something I never thought I had in me, but alas, when someone is against ones very life, it is surprising the emotions it will bring out.

So good. I hope you keep coping well with the "hate". You certainly are an exception to the rule.

[outinforce]

104. Sorry

I really did not mean to dis you when I posted my comments. I guess I was reacting more to the whole notion that "hatred" somehow means "opposition to gay marriages". I don't happen to feel that people who are opposed to gay marriage necessarily hate me as a gay person (although I will certainly agree that among those who oppose gay marriage, there are some who truly do hate gay people).

Part of my point was that I felt that the efforts by the HRC and other groups to push so hard for gay marriage has had the effect you describe -- hatred within the progressive community. The kind of hatred you yourself describe.

It seems to me that a lot of the fervor for gay marriages comes from people who desperately want straight society to confirm -- with their acceptance -- the validity of gay relationships.

I have found that I have no need to seek the acceptance of straight people for my own sexuality, or for the validity of any relationships I may want. Nor do I really need what so many other gay people seem to want -- the aura of "respectability" that somehow comes from being able to say, "See? I've been able to land the one person that is willing to grow old with me."

I "cope" by being strong enough to not care what other people think about my relationships.

[noiretextatique]

i hear what you're saying...but this is a civil rights issue

it's not about seeking validation from straight society. it's about healthcare, death benefits, and taxes, to name a few. it's about enjoying all the benefits of citizenship that accrue to "married" couples automatically...if they have the right gender combo.
i have listened to some of my otherwise progressive friends paranoia around this issue, and you know what i hear: you are a second-class citizen. i also hear that denying gays the rights that straights enjoy is ok because of their religious beliefs.
sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's very blatant...and yes, i consider it hatred, no matter how sacred, sanctioned, and justified some feel in harboring that hatred.
and in all of this i feel a strange sense of deja vu...perhaps it's generational memories. but i know these same (or very similar) arguments were used to deny civil rights in the past.

[noiretextatique]

120. i hear what you're saying...but this is a civil rights issue

it's not about seeking validation from straight society. it's about healthcare, death benefits, and taxes, to name a few. it's about enjoying all the benefits of citizenship that accrue to "married" couples automatically...if they have the right gender combo.
i have listened to some of my otherwise progressive friends paranoia around this issue, and you know what i hear: you are a second-class citizen. i also hear that denying gays the rights that straights enjoy is ok because of their religious beliefs.
sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's very blatant...and yes, i consider it hatred, no matter how sacred, sanctioned, and justified some feel in harboring that hatred.
and in all of this i feel a strange sense of deja vu...perhaps it's generational memories. but i know these same (or very similar) arguments were used to deny civil rights in the past.

[dsc]

157. Isn't that nice

I guess you are either not in a relationship at all or independently wealthy too. This isn't just symbolism. In the case of the poster you are responding to, she literally can't live on the same continent as her partner due to this very issue. One of them lives in Australia and the other here due to immigration issues. In case you didn't know this if they were married the Aussie could come here tomorrow but since they aren't they are screwed. This isn't about respect or conformity. It is about immigration, adoption, health care and pensions.

[bobbyboucher]

119. You must be loving this whole thing.

Aren't you? Do you tell your friends all about it? Get a big laugh. So clever.

[outinforce]

124. "Loving This Whole Thing"?

What is it, exactly, that you are trying to say, bobbyboucher?

I really am at a loss to know what it is that you are saying.

Would you care to elaborate?

Or would that be too much to ask of you?

[bobbyboucher]

126. I think

that you are having fun at this. Are you?

[outinforce]

128. You Do? Really?

Do I enjoy engaging my mind is discussions of this sort, then yes, I am "having fun".

But if you mean the sort of fun that childishly-minded people -- the sort that simply post a few words that seem to indicate a desire to start a flame-war -- then I'm afraid you've misinterpreted what I am about here. Your perception, in that case, is just wrong.

TTFN

[bobbyboucher]

129. Yeah, I really, really do.

I know you are having fun, but are you really engaging your mind? I suppose you are, but are you really engaging your mind?

HAAB

[Terran]

94. A mixture of elation, frustration and anger

I'm a 44 year old gay man, and I never thought I would see any of this happening in my lifetime. In principle, I know that gay marriage is the right thing to do, because there is no real rational justiifcation for denying it or for having a separate but equal system of civil unions. But at the same time, I feel we've 'let the cat out of the bag' with this explosion of gay marriage advocacy. It's like, all of a sudden, we want it all, and we want it all NOW.

I guess I'm of an age that I figured I might some day get the chance to form a civil union with my partner of 17 years and get all the legal benefits of marriage without actually saying I'm 'married'. And to be honest, that still would be fine with me. I don't need to be married to legitimize my relationship--I feel very strongly about that. But thanks to the Massachusetts Supreme Court, the legal issue was confronted head on, and now all of a sudden we have to face down the fundies on this issue.

What's bothering me, in addition, of course, to Bush's cynical support for this change to the Constitution, is that no one is asking for an alternative, which is a Federal civil unions law! Bush has said he supports the state's rights to allow civil unions; he probably doesn't realize what he's really saying when he says that. The only way a civil union really means anything, from the standpoint of critical legal benefits, is if it's recognized on the federal level (taxes, survivor benefits, inheritance, that kind of thing). And he has never said that the federal government wouldn't or shouldn't recognize civil unions. So I guess I'm just of a mind to compromise on the issue. Total equality would be great, but I've spent my whole life being discriminated against. If a separate but equal system of civil unions, recognized federally, were to grant me all those critical economic rights, then I would gladly support that and *foresake* gay marriage. I know that sounds treasonous to our side, but it's also practical. It would give us what we *need*, not what we want. What we *want* could come in time.

Dirk

[9215]

110. Isn't queer a slur?

[foreigncorrespondent]

136. Im queer...

...so how can it be a slur if I am using it?

No it most certainly isn't a slur, when we use it.

[9215]

138. Does this mean a non-queer can't use it without it being a slur?

[foreigncorrespondent]

140. If you are straight...

...I wouldn't suggest using it, unless you are close (friendship wise) to the gay people you intend to use it around.

[9215]

143. How come we don't hear Jews calling each other kikes, or Puerto Ricans

calling each other Spicks, or the mentally disabled calling each other retards, or Italians calling each other Wops?

We only have queers calling themselves queers and cautioning non-queers that they should "be careful" when they use the word?


I think all of these bullshit protocols you impose are just another way of finding an excuse to be a victim, of drawing attention to yourself and covering up your heterophobia. A big fraud, like a religion. We now have every other topic at DU either about religion or queers, but that isn't enough I guess. :eyes:

[outinforce]

144. You Can Call Me A Queer any time you want to.

And I will be able to tell, in most cases, whether you mean it to hurt me or not.

If I think you mean it to hurt me, do you know what my response will be?

It will be something like, "Yep. I'm a goddammed queer. Now, what do you want to make of it?"

If I think you are not using it to try to hurt me, then my response may be something like, "Oh, and you don't think that I don't think that you're not a little bit queer, too?"

I refuse to let mere words that people toss around hurt me.

Life is just too short for that. And it gives as power to people who may hate me that I don't care to choose to give them.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[outinforce]

147. "Fraud"?

Help me out here, 9215.

In what way do you think I am a fraud?

[mlawson]

137. Well, I do not like it!!!!

I may be homosexual, but I am damned if I am "queer"!!!!!

[9215]

139. So why didn't you tell foreign correspondent?

[mlawson]

146. One post is as visible as the next.

Oh, that word is 'trendy' right now. I find infinitely offensive, however; it actually implies inferior status, for cryin' out loud!

[tom_paine]

115. Non-queer, but I support you

Originally, I was on the fence on this issue (which does NOT negate my humanity, thank you).

The more I consider it (and the fact that a moderate REPUG friend told me he supports it and why) I am much coming closer to full 100% support.

Having said that, I totally understand your feelings regarding hating and feeling things you never felt before.

THAT I do understand, because since the Bloodless Coup of 2000, I feel exactly the same way.

For me, a straight white dude, much of it boils down not only to what the Busheviks have done but to the Nazi-style propaganda they have used to demonize and dehumanize their opponents.

Of course, primarily one of the group used to demonize the Left are homosexuals.

But, to a lesser degree, we have ALL been demonized and dehumanized by the Imperial Propaganda Machine just for believing in freedom and equality and the Bill Of Rights.

For myself, I can only take so much of being called unpatriotic, lazy, welfare-lovin, socialist (patricularly that for me, like for most Democrats, it's NOT TRUE) before you want to hit back.

So I understand. I'm not sure there is anything you can do to stop it. It is a natural feeling, a "Jews in Nazi Germany" feeling. Perfectly rational, even though the Busheviks are "kinder and gentler" than their former business partners.

I would say the est way to deal with it is to channel your anger into something productive.

And don't forget who your REAL enemies are. Not DUers who disagree, but Busheviks would would rather you were dead or otherwise conveniently gone/turned into an Unperson.

I don't know what people said to you, but beware of displaced anger. It leads to lashing out at people who don't deserve it.

[historian]

116. not homosexual but,,,

I am a firm believer in live and let live. You must understand though that if the dems come out defending you, we will lose the election, and then things will get worse. Sadly, you could hold an urgent conference on the deficit and why it will destroy you or any other topic of importance and the populace would lapse into a coma.
Ah! but sex under and shape or form is open for diatribes of the ignorant and bigotted. I wouldnt pay much attention to them.
Look at the bright side of things though - he is doing this so he wont lose his conservative base who are becoming unglued, but instead he is tamperinig with the constitution and many people object to that.
So in the long run, when we kick out the repukes there will be no more mention of this and i believe ifyou want to get married there wont ba a problem
Good luck and dont let hate devour you.

[indigo32]

121. fellow queer here

feeling not particularly surprised by it. It has made me realize I have stronger feelings about marriage than I thought however, for a while I thought look... civil unions are OK, no longer.

[noiretextatique]

122. i'm with you, indigo32

:hi: i have been a vocal opponent of marriage (as we have known it) for most of my adult life. but i am so happy for my friends who were able to get married the other day because it was their choice, as it should be. i know that is not the case for many others who get married, like many of the people i know who have done so. most of them did it because it was expected of them...very few went into marriages with their eyes open, and their expectations realistic.

[scottxyz]

127. How liberal is DU...

...if so may people keep writing into this thread asking "Isn't 'queer' a slur?"?

HELLO?!?!

"We're here, we're queer, get used to it."

Never heard of taking over epithets to defuse them? Some "progressives" must be getting a real eye-opener here!

[arwalden]

131. I Am Feeling It Politically... And It's Disgusting... And Disheartening.

In my personal life, I'm pretty much isolated from the experiences that I've heard you and others talk about. We're homebodies and I'm enjoying being an unemployed domestic/Tim Taylor kind of guy, therefore I find myself removed from a lot of the face to face bigotry that others experience.

The one things I find most difficult to do is NOT allowing myself to become consumed with hatred for those people. But when it comes over me it's like a torrent... I am engulfed with a rage like nothing I'm capable of describing. It frightens my partner and he doesn't want to be around me when it comes.

Have you ever seen "Full Metal Jacket"? You know when the "Pvt. Pyle" character finally SNAPS and you can tell that he's gone completely insane? That evil demonic look in his eyes? --- That's me.

-- Allen

[northofdenali]

132. I agree with so many of the folks here, foreigncorrespondent -

try to turn your feelings of hatred into anger - anger can be used FOR, hatred can only devour you from inside.

As another straight-but-not-narrow married female, you have my unconditional support. This is NOT a sexuality issue, it is a CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE. (My GLBT friends all heard this in a very loud voice last night, so I thought I'd yell here, too!) :hug::loveya::hug:

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

141. turn on tune in drop out

i don't pay too much attention to the media..or the political media that is.... so I tend to miss alot of the homophobia and negativity out there.

I see quite a bit of hate online directed at gays, but not too much (or very little) here at this forum.

I wouldnt call the support or rationalization for Kerrys waffle on gay marriage that you see here "hate". Its more expediency.

[kayell]

142. It's interesting that expediency ALWAYS dictates that people favor

placating centrist heterosexual white male types (whose support for dems is always debatable) rather than supporting the civil rights of minority groups such as disenfranchised black voters in FL 2000, or marriage rights for gays and lesbians. Minority groups that traditionally have voted dem, yet year after year, are always told that the party will work for their interests, but not too much this year, we must make some compromises. Oh, but stay on board, we'll get around to it, but meanwhile, take these crumbs.

[noiretextatique]

149. an astute observation, kayell

:toast: that's the way it works. let's placate the swing voters (so, sorry you couldn't vote...but we have to think about 2004) at all costs.

[jansu]

148. Don't leave! We need you!

Human Rights! That's what we are talking about and don't let them label it any other way!



It has been too long for this error and horror to be fixed! Keep up the hard work!

[foreigncorrespondent]

152. jansu...

...I have no intentions in leaving. I won't be turning my back on DU or the dems, just the bigots who have decided to hide behind a veil.

[dsc]

153. Frankly it has been depressing beyond words

I really, really hope you don't go but fully understand if you do. I have been called fag, childish, an ingrate, and a lot of other crap while discussing this issue, and yes I mean here. If this is what liberals think then God help us. In any case, I hope things get better for both of us.

[foreigncorrespondent]

155. I'm not going to leave dsc.

Us queers really do need to stick together now. We are learing who our friends are and who aren't our friends. If we begin falling apart now, then we lose.

Sappho is off having her much needed break right now. She needs to regain strength. She got attacked once too often from so called liberals. But I guarantee, she will be back. :)

[dsc]

158. I am glad to hear that

I am not sure I can say the same. Between the anti Dean gloaters and the rat bastard comments on this issue, I may have to leave to have any hope of staying in the Democratic fold.

[foreigncorrespondent]

159. And I don't blame you one little bit, my friend.

I will be very sorry to see you leave, but I certainly understand your need to.

I don't have as much riding on it as you guys living over there do. I made up my mind a while back, that if I ever was able to move back to the U.S. and live there permanently, that I would in fact become a citizen after five years.

After becoming a citizen, I simply could not register myself a democrat in any good conscience. I simply can't enter into any tent that have people who don't believe in my right to a life.

[freeforall]

154. I'm not gay but...

I object to your calling gay people queers. I think it sounds demeaning, and it makes me wonder how you expect to get respect if you don't respect yourself first.

BTW, I think * is an asshole. Marriage is a personal affair, and I don't think defining marriage as between a man and woman is inherently useful. It won't improve heterosexual partnerships, and won't really harm gay ones. To me, marriage is just a piece of paper and can't compensate for genuine feelings of love, which, after all, can't be legislated.

[foreigncorrespondent]

156. Oh this is a classic.

I am getting attacked in my own thread for using the word QUEER! And then being told I don't respect myself because of it? Get a life dude. And I suggest reading all the posts before attacking. I have actually stated quite clearly why I use the word!

And were in my thread did I ask for a debate on the word queer?