Question for the religious pls

[historian]

I am an atheist so dont pick up the bible very often but i do have a question. If a person believes that Jesus was the son of god, then it would seem that his teachings would supersede anything else in the bible. I find it strange that some believers in the christian faith (and muslim) will do their best to find anything in the bible contrary to Jesus' teaching because it suits them.
Example - turn the other cheek and eye for an eye.
Please no Offense meant - just curiosity

[rpannier]

1. Agreed

I'm Catholic and I've wondered the same thing too.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

29. New Covnent vs Old .... 2 Corinthians 3....explains it

"Mosciac law condemns and kills men" (the letter of the law written on stone) but the Spirit (New Covnent)brings life"

this is what it says

2 Corinthians 3 :: New International Version (NIV)

1.Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2.You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3.You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4.Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5.Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6.He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life


The Glory of the New Covenant

7.Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8.will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9.If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10.For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12.Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13.We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14.But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15.Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16.But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17.Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18.And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect<1> the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

[daveskilt]

2. for christians it does supercede other teachings

christ says in multiple places in the bible that he is the fulfillment of the law and the law of moses is done away. he is tricky about how he says it in some places to try and not get stoned to death. but he does say that yes the eye for an eye thing is fine but he is bringing a a higher law - turn the other cheek love those that hate you and abuse you etc.

of course with any 2000 year old set of documents copied by hand and translated through hundreds of iterations there are many errors and ommissions (where are all the women that were in there before the 1400's) and that makes it really easy for people to justify anything they want to justify using the bible as support

[blondeatlast]

3. No offense taken. My source is JC himself; the Bible is an interesting

read.

I think most Christian progressives believe pretty much the same way.

The fundies have a convenient way of forgetting that JC didn't write the Bible--a human did. Remember the "gossip game?"

[pbo]

13. My source is JC himself; the Bible is an interesting read...

curious as to what you mean ? Do you get the info from Christ Himself or thru the Bible ??

[MichaelUK]

4. poss explanations

On the one hand, you've got the uneducated masses, who don't appreciate the difference between the old and new testaments - different theologies, different eras. It's like trying to live by Victorian morals in a modern society.

On the other hand, you've got the educated individuals who don't know what the New testament is all about - essentially it's a political work designed to increase the popularity of a new religious movement that originated out of John "the Baptist's" group. (and you can hear the objectors a mile off...) Unfortunately, there have been so many reinterpretations of the work that there are contradictory statements across the gospels and into acts.

On the other hand...hang on, out of hands...on the other foot, you've got people who want to think themselves Christian, but can't be bothered working within a moral structure, so they just flick through the Bible until they come across something they like and adapt it.

On the other foot, you've got the priests of this world. Humans who are meant to be as holy as possible...not likely.

[waterman]

8. Liked your reply a lot.

[MichaelUK]

many thanks

[pbo]

14. priests ...meant to be as holy as possible

not in all Christians religions.

FYI, there is a great saint of the Orthodox Church (Christian) who once said, "The road to hell is paved with the skulls and bones of priests, and erring bishops are its lamp posts."

This presents a significantly different spin on your comment.

[MichaelUK]

16. Hence my "...not likely"

[H2O Man]

5. Language is key.

Most christians use a King James' Bible, or similar translation. The truth is, Jesus was not a 17th century Englishman. There are no other historic writings that people would take that old of a translation of. You would be remarkably hard-pressed to find any serious effort that has Jesus claim to be the "Son of God." Rather, there is the consistent "Son of Man" phrase, which is ENTIRELY different. I doubt, for example, than any sane person on d.u. would trust a Pat Robertson or Jerry Foulwell interpretation of a tax form, much less expect an accurate portrayal of Martin Luther King, Jr., by say a George Bush, Jr., laying a wreathe on his grave in 2004. So don't trust them to translate the message of Jesus, who would not be trading ENRON stock with dick cheney were he alive in America today. Finally, the phrase Son of Man means this: a human being who lives as well as possible, in an effort to be a representative of humankind's ability to reach God-consciousness. See the difference? It takes Jesus off of a stained glass window, and puts him smack-dab in the context of humanity.

[waterman]

9. Liked your reply a lot too.

[H2O Man]

17. Gandhi wrote that:

"Jesus was a Jew. He was the finest flower of Judaism. You can see that from the four stories of the four apostles. They had untutored minds. They told the truth about Jesus. Paul was not a Jew, he was a Greek, he had an oratorical mind, a dialectical mind, and he distorted Jesus. Jesus possessed a great force, the love force, but Christianity became disfigured when it went west. It became the religion of kings."
The Bible is a wonderful book. However, any one serious about understanding what Jesus' context in a wider scope (not edited by the Pat Robertsons of history) can read three books: The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception, by Baigent & Leigh; The Nag Hammadi Library, edited by Robinson; and The Gnostic Gospels by Pagels. These should not be considered a replacement for the Bible, but a historical suppliment of great interest. There are hundreds of others, many of poor to bizzare quality. Pagels has recently released another book, too. She is a serious scholar, recently covered by TIME magazine.
There is really no excuse for ignorance today. We're adults. There is no Santa Claus. But there is right and wrong, good and bad, light and dark. And great Masters. Learn the tuth & it will set you free.

[waterman]

6. I've never had a problem with the Bible or the messages contained in it -

although it sure is big on violence. But I've always had a MAJOR problem with the way different groups use it to suit their own agenda. In the end, it's all a stalemate, because all the arguing in the world about it leaves everyone exactly where they started out. There never seems to be any forward progress.

[mhr]

7. www.liberalslikechrist.org This Web Site Focuses On The Teachings

of Jesus Christ and the four gospels.

It is chocker block full of good ammunition to use against the fundies.

www.liberalslikechrist.org

www.jesusnorepublican.org

[deutsey]

10. Christians see Jesus as the fulfillment of the Law

Some theologians assert that before the revelation of God through the human form of Jesus, the Law (often restrictive and punitive) was necessary to keep people in line because they weren't ready for the grace that God also offered. The Law was meant to instruct and prepare people for the new way of relating to God that Jesus represented (i.e., God is really a loving Father--or Abba, "daddy"--and by following the example of Jesus we can share in this new relationship).

This is a very superficial response, but I don't have the time or the resources to do it justice. I suggest reading Romans in the Christian ("New") Testament and looking for some contemporary theological books (particularly those produced by academic theologians...there are even some liberal theologians out there--gasp!).

I'm not a Christian, but I think to look at Christianity only through the interpretation offered by conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists prevents a lot of us from appreciating other interpretations of the religion that are quite profound and moving.

[Az]

11. The two are focused on seperate issues

Turn the other cheek refers to how he expects his followers to deal with those they are evangelyzing to. When in the world and confronting those that do not agree with them.

The eye for an eye is supposed to be a call for moderation. In a time when theft was met with death a call for the punishment to fit the crime was actually a call for limiting the consequence.

[arewethereyet]

12. Jesus clarified the Law, he didn't change or invalidate it

people don't always realize this

[Jose Diablo]

15. I think so too

Clarity: love each other

[Blue_Chill]

18. No offense taken and to answer your question.....

I have no idea why so many ignore Jesus. This is why I think Gibson's movie is Ironic. After years of ignoring the guy the will go in mass to watch his death.

My formula for Christianity
Jesus + Ten Commandments > Obscure line embracing conservative behavior

[JamesA1102]

19. RE: Question for the religious pls

I was raised as a Catholic and you are exactly right. I was taught that the Old Testement was merely prologue. What really counted were the teachings of Christ. Thus, when Christ was asked what is the greatest commandment and he replied 'Love thy neighbor as you love thyself' that superceeds the 10 commandments. When Christ said 'Turn the other cheek' that superceeds an eye for an eye. It is unfortunate that many fundementalists have perverted both the bible and the teachings of Christ for political ends.

[seabeyond]

20. i dont do bible

but the eye for an eye gets me as all use it and never finish the quote

an eye for an eye
tooth for a tooth

vengence is mine sayeth the lord

no one puts the ending to it

[arewethereyet]

22. not quite

love they neighbor as you love yourself and love God only distill the ten commandments down to two, they don't replace, merely clarify.

turn the other cheek is what you shuld do in order to better love thy neighbor ut He never said anything about the rest being null and void. If you think otherwise, show me where.

[Paradox_Mystery]

21. agree with previous posts, and also

the "law and the prophets" Jesus was fulfilling was "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" not the old testament law and prophets

[seabeyond]

23. is that from bible

cause i disagree with this one. do onto others as i want done unto me. i am an odd kind of person and what i want done onto me, i assure you, many would have issue. that is implying that i am center of universe and all want to be treated my way, yet i find others are independent and want to be treated the way they like, not the way i like

example if this be the case i would never have to send a thank you note again. i dont need them........hey reminds me the christmas ones my kids wrote out still sitting on dining room table, gotta get those out cause my mother in law doesnt want me to as i would do onto myself, she insists i do her way............wink

[Paradox_Mystery]

24. It is

doesn't mention christmas cards, though:) Maybe it should have been "Do unto others as they want you to do unto them." Er, no thats not it, how about "do unto others as you and they agree should be done unto them?"but that wouldn't have been as catchy... Oh well, suppose we'll just have to do the best we can:)

[seabeyond]

25. bah ha ha ha

yup i leave it to do the best i can in love and always, in my perfectly imperfect being ........that is good enough

[ElsewheresDaughter]

26. Jesus does supersede old testament teachings read 2 Corinthians 3

it says "that Mosiac Law kills and brings death where Jesus (the New Covenent) brings life and love"

"Mosciac law is a fading glory where the New Covennt goes from glory to glory"

and much more

Jesus gave 2 Commandments 1. love God with all your heart and mind 2. love one another....

keep these 2 commands and it will be impossible to break the others IMHO

[Bandit]

27. 90% of "Christians" have never heard of the Beatitudes but they know all

about the "Ten Commandments" I guess Christainity ain't all it's cracked up to be. Most don't even know what their savior had to say. Some even think he was a philosopher. :shrug:

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. OK, have some resources on this for you

You need to understand that Christians come in many different styles:

those who believe in one God, three Gods, those who are literal fundamentalists, charismatics, evangelicals, liberals (which I am), etc, etc, etc

And you can make a pro and against case on just about any subject by plucking select quotes from here and there in the Bible!

So yes, I get accused of seeing what I want in the Bible when I start talking about Jesus wanting us to care for the poor and that he said we ought to pay taxes to do so, but far be it from me to point out that the a passage that supposedly calls homosexuality an abomination also says the same of eating shellfish. So if you've had a lobster lately, watch your back around some Christians. They may be looking to stone you. *sigh*

Please look over the links on the Christian page of my website, particularly the one called Liberals like Jesus, which explains a lot about your question. (One apsect being that many Christians are really Paulists.)

If you have more questions, I suggest taking them to the many Christian forums I have linked on my site. There are a lot of Pastors and Biblical scholars (including some very liberal and patient ones *g*) there who would be more than happy to pass on their views about your question. :)

~Jen