Something we Democrats ought to note about Nader supporters

[MrSoundAndVision]

Accusing them of risking the political future of this country by voting for what they believe isn't exactly the best way to win their hearts and minds. This is a democracy. Vote for who you want. That's how it works. Don't be assholes. If you think that Ralph Nader is going to steal likely voters from the Democratic ticket, well then work harder at persuading them that your platform (or candidate) is better. Don't stink up the place with ABB farts, it's just not a coeherent political smell.

[php1949]

1. Sorry, but I'm going to speak the truth about Nader and his supporters

Human life is worth more than principles. A Bush reelection means a loss of human life.

[MrSoundAndVision]

3. The truth huh, and what's that?

See if they start agreeing with your politics with that attitude.

And I most certainly don't support Ralphie nor have I ever. I'm just saying, ah to hell with it.

Can't people think for themselves even when their livelihood demands it? God I fucking hate the media, you people just eat mainstream media for breakfast don't you?

[southerngirlwriter]

12. The truth......

Note: all "you" and "your" here is generic, not personal.

Remember high school? You had your jocks, your nerds, your theatre types, your dangerous types, your potheads, etc.

Then there was that kid -- maybe there were two or three -- who was just too cool for anything. They didn't like video games, they didn't care about their grades, they didn't care about dating, they didn't fret over their looks, they didn't fret over anything because they were just too cool for it all.

In their minds, not caring about anything made them cooler than everyone else, which is of course the ultimate irony -- they were more concerned about being cool than everyone else put together.

Sorry for overusing the word "cool," as I don't know what the current lingo is.

That kid in my class growing up was named Kara. If someone liked a new band's CD, she'd roll her eyes. It was so stupid to be a fan of some stupid band. If someone got excited about a new teacher's interesting project, she'd roll her eyes. We were so stupid to give a shit about a fucking homework assignment.

Anybody who was a fan of anything -- who was passionate about anything, who believed in anything -- was sneered at by Kara. I've met Karas in all walks of life.

They are twisted, emotionally crippled assholes who don't really care about anyone or anything, except themselves.

Those are Nader voters. No, the Democratic party isn't perfect, but to take a deep breath and vote for what's best for the country -- getting that dickhead out of office -- would just be so, so, like-everyone-else. So, not above-it-all-looking-down.

They're going to troop to the polls and vote for Nader. If by some miracle of Almighty God we win anyway, the minute someone gripes about something they don't like President Kerry (or Edwards or Kucinich or whoever) doing, it'll be, "I didn't vote for that fucking idiot. I voted for Nader!" with an arrogant little snicker.

This year, those types will be joined by people who are highly embarrassed. They got excited and passionate about their candidate. He inspired them. I commend them for breaking out of their apathy long enough to get excited, and I commend him for what he did. But rather than taking the mature, adult route of saying, "What's best for my country?" and doing it, they're going to pull the lever for Nader because they're pissed off. They're angry and disappointed and grieving, but rather than growing up, they're going to vote for Nader. That way they, in their twisted little minds, get it both ways. If whistle-ass gets another term, they can say, "See what happened? You should have voted for my guy!" That their guy didn't win a single primary in his own party won't mean shit to them. That their guy was someone America wasn't ready for won't mean shit. Their hurt feelings mean shit to them, nothing else.

I sympathize with their hurt feelings. I grant them their right to their pain.

Voting third-party to deal with it is something that we're not going to talk them out of, no matter how nice, sweet, understanding, or boot-licking we become. They're not acting out of reason or patriotism -- they're acting out of their own self-interest. You can't talk them out of that. It's based on their feelings, not their thinking.

Try and change someone else's feelings. Go on. I dare you.

Forgive me if I seem angry at you. I'm not. I'm frustrated.

Nader votes as protests when what's on the line is the total destruction of the environment, the reinstatement of the draft, four (or more) additional wars, the demolishment of the bill of rights, etc., is pure, childish irresponsibility.

"It's America! I'll vote for whoever I want!"

No, it's not America anymore. And your Nader vote will hasten the destruction.

If less than 1% of Nader voters in just one state had voted with their brains instead of their feelings, whistle-ass wouldn't be in office. 500+ American boys and girls wouldn't be dead. Thousands of Iraqi children would have both arms and both parents. The right to choose would not be in jeopardy.

Less than 1% in one state.

That's all it would have taken.

I like Kerry and Edwards as people, but neither has the platform I want. Oh, well. I'm a grown-up. What I want isn't what's most important. Saving this country from the Bush Crime Family and the fascist right wing is what's important.

And the fact that I have to say this on DU is sickening and saddening.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. Hear! Hear!

Well said.

I go a step further, though. I have no sympathy for anyone who insists on picking up the marbles and going home when the game isn't going exactly right.

An election is to pick the best candidate from among the choices. If the choices are reduced to what seems at first glance unacceptable, they are the choices, and a choice still must be made.

Staying home is a choice, as is a protest vote, but these are false choices. Unless both candidates are hopelessly corrupt and inept, it does not help the better one win.

It is merely the whining, selfish arrogance of children throwing tantrums at not getting their way.

It will be Bush vs Kerry, or perhaps Edwards. Vote for the better one.

Shouldn't be too difficult to figure out which one that is.

[southerngirlwriter]

18. Well said, and much more succinctly than I managed.

I keep thinking about a woman I've never met, but you know who I'm referring to -- a prolific DUer with a kid over in Iraq.

If Nader and the whining Nader-protest-vote types give * another term and her kid doesn't make it home for years, or comes home in a box, I wonder what comfort it will be to her that they voted ideological purity over realism and practicality and common sense?

This stuff gives me a migraine. But then, I'm not cool. I care.

[sendero]

21. Well said...

... a "protest" vote is simply tilting at windmills. If you can talk yourself into believing it is the right thing, that only shows how gullible the listener is.

There is this thing called "maturity". When you get it you realize that the future of the country is more important than your symbolic useless "protest".

[dad]

33. LOL

Now that's hate speech!

[Sterling]

43. That is too funny.

You have a philosophy based on stereo types and resentment of your high school class mates? lol.

[Kahuna]

2. Please. If they are still supporters after three years of..

bush, nothing I can say will change their hearts or minds one way or the other. They are already entrenched.

[KharmaTrain]

4. A Difference Between Defenders and Supporters

I don't nor will support Nader, but I do defend his right to say what he wants, run if he wants and welcome the voice to the debate. Is that wrong?

[sweetladybug]

7. I agree with IMRadioactive. I'll vote for the Democrat nominee

but I think Nader has a right to run for President and I welcome his voice to the debate. Democrats need to listen to what he has to say and work with him and his followers, then perhaps we could all be united in the Democrat Party.
RE-ELECT A DEMOCRAT IN 2004!!!!

[Forkboy]

32. Amen

[G_j]

47. I guess

you want four more years of Bush then.

JUST KIDDING!!!!!


seriously though, people are not allowed to actively campaign here. Beyond that, it would be nice if there was more actual discussion of substance. I don't think a potential new voter coming here right now would be impressed, more likely horrified. There seems to be some kind of collective madness going on. If someone told me they were thinking of switching to Dem because they were beginning to see the light about Bush, I would not recommend they visit here right now.
It's not an exaggeration to say the atmosphere does not feel very welcoming.

[BeatleBoot]

5. My kids deserve better than Ralph Nader

To think that this guy is going to try and prove something when my kids future is at stake.

Screw him. Its over.

Later Nader.

[tom_paine]

13. Damn, that was well said!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Sterling]

6. we as Democrats must work on our people skills.

We seem to think they don't matter when it comes to some people.

[MrSoundAndVision]

25. Yeah let's not club them over the head...

okay all?

[ms_splash]

8. Remember why and when DU started

I (and many, many others) came here shortly following the atrocity of Selection 2000. I was pissed off at at Bush and pissed off at Nader and pissed off at people who voted for Nader.

I'm still pissed off.

[Sterling]

36. I was pissed about the stolen election.

The black voters who were not allowed to vote made the difference. The fact we as Democrats have yet to address this is not to our credit. I can only blame Nader if I intentionally ignore what really happened down there.

It's easier to blame Nader than actually take on Bush, Harris and the RNC is it not? It won't get us anywhere but if it makes us feel better why not, huh?

[Old and In the Way]

9. Again, we make 3% of the voters more important than the 45%

who'll vote Democrat. Sadly, they are only relevant because way too many will vote Republican. No single voter deserves this electoral power. Sorry, I'm not into elitist politics.

[Sterling]

37. So you are in favor of a new system?

What about the money? Sorry but elitist politics is not a bunch of progressives voting for someone who actually represents their core values. Elitist politics is the fact people can buy elections. The fact is our leaders are bought and sold and we as voters have very little say in the process. When we as Democrats are truely ready to address that we can start complaining about "elitist liberals"

[ulysses]

10. you're making far too much sense.

Ban the apostate!

;-)

[Rowdyboy]

11. There's no way to persuade people

whose minds are already made up. People who demand perfection and will ONLY support someone who meets their impossible standards are not going to come around, no matter how gently you argue. Sometimes a fart in their general direction is about all you can do.

[ulysses]

17. strenuously misunderstanding people

is such a wonderful start to the rebuilding process.

:eyes:

[mike_c]

14. I am a democrat and a Nader supporter....

I also support the Green party candidates, the libertarians, and yes, even the republicans. It's called democracy. It only works if there's plurality. I think it's also time to start treating our adversaries with a bit of respect on DU. My grandmother used to say that the way a man treats his enemies shows a great deal about his breeding. OK, it was a paternal culture and not an eagalitarian one, but you get the point.

And I don't think I can spell tonight.

[Robin Hood]

15. You're right, they can't be won. They are the enemy.

They are freepers.

[Sterling]

38. Lets get em!!!

:eyes:

[Cat Atomic]

19. I'm always amazed at the hostility towards Greens around here.

You can't whine and moan about pink tu-tu Democrats like Tom Daschle, then turn around and call Greens "the enemy".

Here's an idea. If you want Greens to vote Democrat, then pursue them. Woo them. If you're not willing to do that, then get off their frigging backs. They can vote for anyone they want to.

[sendero]

22. Let me correct you.

I have no hostility against Greens in general, just Ralph Nader. And I don't notice a lot of hostility around here against Greens, just against Ralph Nader.

[Cat Atomic]

24. Its all over the place.

Look above my post. It's not just hostility towards Nader.

[Sterling]

39. Anyone who votes Green is the enemy!!

:eyes: I see this all the time. It is truely for the weak of mind.

[Robin Hood]

48. Like the greens are so innocent.

I went to a rally four days before the 2000 election and Clinton was there with Gray Davis in San Jose California. A pack of greasy Nader supporters "crashed the party" and were incredibly rude and obnoxious. We all made the mistake of accomodating them as if theyr were our crazy old grandma, whacky part of the family.

We did make a mistake, they are wolves in sheeps clothing. They are not part of the family. They are the enemy.

[union_maid]

20. You can't win them over, but...

we need to stop the infection of honestly idealistic newcomers to the electoral process. They don't always really get that our system is pretty locked into two parties and that voting for a third party doesn't change that at all. They need to understand what's at stake and that there's a predictable outcome to third party politics.

[BillZBubb]

23. But, they are risking the political future of this country!

If they don't understand THAT, they don't understand anything.

This election is probably the most important in my lifetime. In the past, we could eke through another four years of this or that Repug--although Reagan was a test on that. This time it's different. We are heading into an economic abyss.

[MrSoundAndVision]

26. I wish I could make a memory-drug...

so you people would JUST REMEMBER that the Supreme Court replaced your democracy. Just cause it ain't on the news, and 'consumer advocate' is doesn't mean that what's real ain't real. k!

[BiggJawn]

27. Nader supporters will NEVER be "won over" to "our side".

Thank you for a new re-tread of the old "Please don't upset the 'Swing Voters'!!!" meme.

Have you forgotten? they support Ralph because OUR guys are all crooked an "bought and paid for" corporate whores.
Telling them that I like their ego-maniacal multi-millionaire "poor boy fighting for the consumer" isn't going to win them over to ABB.

[MrSoundAndVision]

28. Oh so now there unencourageable....

because you don't want to expend the effort to try to convince them. We're all Americans, in the same rotting bread basket, and I think that discussion is the way to bring us out of this mess. Not casting people as too stupid to see ABB. Bush is just a face, he's just an Ari Fleischer of the corporate and financial elite in this country. We should really think about the Scott McClellen's out there too....

[southerngirlwriter]

29. Friend, you're missing the point.

It's not too STUPID to see the need for ABB.

It's too immature, too selfish.

You can't argue someone into maturity. They get there on their own, or they don't. I wish you could use arguments to make people grow up. We'd live in a much different world.

[Rowdyboy]

30. Its just a waste of time. You either get it or you don't...

Some people never will. If you need persuading to vote ABB, you're living in a bubble, unaware of whats happening to your country, your courts, your future...

[Sterling]

41. I get that the Dems will be hanging gays out to dry.

I hope you are ready to stand alone in the trenches for the next four years because the culture war is getting ready to get hot and you are the first course.

I will be there defending your rights but I have a feeling the party will not have our back. You as a gay matter about as much as the progressives to the NASCAR dad chasing DLC these days.

Vote against Bush in whatever form you feel suits you but lets not kid ourselves that getting rid of him is the solution.

[Rowdyboy]

44. It beats the hell out of keeping him!

The longest journey begins with a single step...

[dad]

31. .

"they support Ralph because OUR guys are all crooked an "bought and paid for" corporate whores"

Who voted for the war and the Patriot Act. And No Child Left Behind.

What is your breaking point with politics as usual?

[Rowdyboy]

34. I, personally, have NO breaking point until the

BUSH BASTARDS ARE OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE!

[BiggJawn]

46. So go ahead and vote for another 4 years of John Ashcroft.

and Rumsferatu, and Colon Bowel, and Dick "TinMan" Cheney. Vote for a repeal of women's rights. Vote for the outlawing of the Sierra Club. Vote for the Draft. I'll bet you're young enough to go, aren't you?

Let me ask you this. Who's idea was the war, PATRIOT act, and All childs left behind, anyway?
Not Kerry and Edwards.

[Iverson]

35. usually not a matter of "Nader supporters"

From what I've seen the last few days, you're describing those who denounce Nader insufficiently, or else those who try to discern between a legitimate criticism and an illegitimate one.

It's the continuing shift rightward of the boundaries of permissible liberalism.

[Q]

40. Democrats seem afraid of the Bush* regime...

...and thus need a lesser target to attack in the form of Nader.

- I've never seen this type of fear before in my 30 years of voting Democratic. It's as if the Dem leadership has given up on even trying to beat Bush* in 2004. Minority leader Daschle can't say enough nice things about George* and his 'war'.

- So Nader becomes an easy scapegoat to blame instead of ourselves for our own weaknesses.

- We can only blame ourselves if Bush* pulls off a win.

[Sterling]

42. That is why I am glad Nader is running.

Unless NY is a big win for Dems I will probably not vote for Nader but I am glad he will be a factor so my core values will be represented in the political discourse. No sense having a skull and bones election that ignores root problems we are facing.

[union_maid]

45. Tried that last time

And the assholism was all on their side, at least for a long time. I didn't hate Nader until fairly late in the process. I was just aware that there were differences between Democrats and Republicans and that those differences were very important to many people. I got lambasted in the most sophomoric and arrogant terms way before I was even trying to convince anyone of my views. I was just explaining why I wouldn't be voting Nader at that point. Got more heated as it became clear Nader was going back on this promise not to campaign in swing states and that he was hitting Gore a lot harder than Bush. If you've seen what happened in the last three years and you're even willing to consider voting Nader you're hopeless. I'm just interested in burying him so he won't infect more young minds with his dishonest rhetoric.