Which Canadian Political Party would you vote for?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

Poll question: Which Canadian Political Party would you vote for?

Bloc Quebecois
http://www.blocquebecois.ca

Conservative Party of Canada
http://www.conservative.ca

Liberal Party of Canada
http://www.liberal.ca

New Democratic Party
http://www.ndp.ca

Green Party of Canada
http://www.green.ca

[david_vincent]

1. The Rhinos

I loved their ideas to slice the peaks off the Rockies
to make transportation easier, and to dam the St. Lawrence
and flood Quebec!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

2. Sane solutions in an insane world, David. Sane solutions.

[gula]

31. The Rhinos, oh how I miss them!

[iverglas]

32. and who can forget

the Nude Garden Party? (Everybody but me, it seems, since I find no mention on the net.)

My co-vivant was a Rhino for a bit before we met. When he and his colleagues showed up at the NDP candidate's victory party in Toronto some years ago, the party worker at the door balefully accused them of just being there for the free beer. C.v. replied that he was high on false drugs, why would he want their beer?

Alas, the Natural Law Party has gone the way of the Rhinos now too, even its website dead.

Here's a list of federal parties, for the curious:

http://www.nodice.ca/election2004/links.html

Registered Political Parties (Elected to House of Commons)
Bloc Québécois
Conservative Party of Canada
- Conservative Party Caucuses
- Canadian Reform Conservative Alliance
- Progressive Conservative Party of Canada
Liberal Party of Canada
New Democratic Party

Registered Political Parties
Canadian Action Party
Communist Party of Canada
Marijuana Party
Marxist-Leninist Party of Canada
Natural Law Party of Canada
The Green Party of Canada

Eligible Political Parties
Absolutely Absurd Party
Christian Heritage Party
National Alternative Party of Canada
The Ontario Party of Canada

Other Political Parties
Canadian Democratic Movement
Confederation of Regions
Democratic Canadian Union
Freedom Party of Canada
Grey Party of Canada
Natural Law Party of Canada
Libertarian Party of Canada
Parti Populaire des Putes
Rest Of Canada Party
Rhinoceros Party of Canada
Socialist Party of Canada
Western Canada Concept

The Parti Populaire des Putes was a new one on me:
http://www.walnet.org/ppp/index2.html
I translate a bit of its blurb:

Audacieuse et déterminée, la Coalition Pour les Droits des Travailleuses et Travailleurs du Sexe fonde un parti politique fédéral afin de lutter pour la reconnaissance des droits des personnes oeuvrant dans l'industrie du sexe comme citoyens-ennes à part entière dans notre société.

The Coalition for the Rights of Sex Workers has taken the bold and determined step of establishing a political party to fight for recognition of the rights of persons working in the sex industry as full members of our society.

.

[camero]

3. NDP

I like thier immigration policies too.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

4. Good to hear.

[sweetheart]

5. Paul Martin is a survivor

I respect Rt.Hon. Mr. Martin. The liberal party is being prudent
given the radical nutballs south of the border.... not playing ball
with your largest trading partner and permanent neighbor is stupid... and martin has that centrism figured, as otherwise he'd be
hog tied by the repukes south of the border.

Cut the man some slack. The NDP is a bit unrealistic to say that
PM is on the heels of mulruuny (sp?) for being corrupt... rather he's a centrist. Some day, i hope to shake the hand of Mr. martin and wish him godspeed. Give the guy a chance before ya dump on him... the fact that the NDP (per the web link) is already dumping on him is a sign they're high on rhetoric and short on reality.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

6. Some concerns about Paul Martin

The Groupaction affair. If he knew about it, he's a liar, if he didn't he's incompetent, if he was kept from knowing about it, that raises huge concerns about his ability to lead his party.
The Flags of Convenience issue. Martin's company Canada Steamship Lines chose to fly flags other than the Maple Leaf in order to use tax havens. The company also has a lousy track record in dealing with unions and low pay issues.
Martin's treatment of Sheila Copps, his leadership rival, and supporters of the previous Prime Minister, Jean Chretien. In short, he is attempting to deprive them of their seats to be replaced by his loyalists.
Martin has backpedalled on gay marriage, the Kyoto Accord and it looks like he will scrap the Gun Registry. He has also indicated that he will support the US Missile Shield Project.

[sweetheart]

9. I know what you're at

Just when you're PM, and answerable to 100% of canadians, and a QC
for christs sake, clealry you'll have your nose shoved up the sphincter of priviledge... and as democratic as canada is, the old school good old boy network is just as operative there as in britan
or america for that matter.

Mr. Martin is a DLC liberal. He has Kerry's wealth conflicts of interest, and a US conservative nightmare to his south to keep appeased. I'm sure that in his nightly prayers, he hopes to reamake
some of those mistakes when president Kerry lightens up the stupidity.

Are YOU a liberal party member with NDP leanings, or really an NDP party member... as NDP has permanent opposition written on its platform.. sorta like british labour before neil kinnoch. Coalition...yes, but the website is childish for a party intending to be in power.

I have a coupla letters from Paul martin downstairs from a previous life where i communicated with him as finance minister... and he, more than any finance minister in the G7 evidenced to me a serious
concern (as head of the UN global financial architecture group - read: strategic property rights distribution between rich and poor (nations and people).)

I cannot speak to the "scandals" you mention... but i have a genuine
belief that he's playing politics and is in the catbird seat to make
a better world, no matter what short term positioning he's on to.

He's still on his honeymoon. I've got a good feeling about him... whereas bush is way past his depose-by date.

Please tell me more about those things and convince me (with links?)
as to why PM should step down.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

10. Step down? Why would I want him to step down?

I'm an NDP member and I believe I have laid out my concerns and objections without being insulting to Paul Martin in any way. I oppose, but I do so in a reasoned and reasonable way. I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. If you want information on the Groupaction Affair, you'll find it on the CBC website.

[sweetheart]

13. Your concerns give me pause...

When i corresponded with Rt.Hon.Mr.Martin QC, i was in a heavy
libertarian streak, and he even mentioned he found my work
(G10 white papers) to have little empowerment of the sovereign.

Since then, I've myself have grown much more politically mature and
have added "socialist" the the back of libertarian. In 1998,
libertarian could be sorta republican, but no more.... now a true
libertarian would vote democrat.. and why i'm democrat today.

I can say, however, that Mr. Martin has inspired my own life greatly
by our correspondence. He has given me confidence and an injection
of goodwill that i will never forget. No matter what happens to
him politically, i can't but have great respect for him.

His opposition of the bank mergers between i forget, but the big few
remaining RY, BNS, BMO, CIBC, TD.. as nesbitt burns, dominion
securities and others got eaten, the remaining ones would reduce
themselve to the royal bank of nova scotia, montreal, imperal
bank of commerce dominion... and PM took the wise but highly
unpopular (with banks) political opposition to reducing the
oligopoly further. Imagine an american politicial with the balls
to block a Chase JPM merger. It would be political suicide. PM
faced the canadian banks down in the public interest.

Lord Byron, i mean no political divisiveness regardin the NDP.
What i'm getting at, is that the sniping of the liberal left over PM
reminds me of the same liberal left bitching about clinton, voting
for nader, and bringing us bush. If PM can change jobs leaving
an even more healthy left in power, then cool... just be careful
what you wish for. Though i myself loathed clintonism, i'd have
lived to eat my words that things could not be worse.

peace,

[Screaming Lord Byron]

15. I understand your point of view a little better now.

I live in Western Canada, and before I joined the NDP, I gave a lot of thought to the idea of voting tactically for a Liberal in order to remove a neo-conservative MP. I still believe it to be an understandable viewpoint, but I myself cannot hold to it. I am a socialist, not a Liberal, and I must vote with my conscience.
This is all academic, as I live in Calgary, land of massive Tory majorities. I could vote Liberal and still end up with a Tory MP.

[iverglas]

34. the luxury of being Canadian

We can vote our conscience. That's what a real multi-party democracy allows. We can vote *against* the Liberal right wing without voting *for* the Conservative right wing.

In those places where a vote for the NDP might end up being a vote "for" a Conservative candidate, we still know, at least today, that it's unlikely that enough of our fellow citizens will be voting for Conservative candidates that the Conservatives will get a majority of the seats in the House and form the government.

So even when voting strategically, we can still conscientiously vote *against* the Liberals -- I'd be more likely to vote Conservative where the NDP candidate was a no-hoper, to try deny the Liberals one more seat in the House, and thereby to enhance the NDP's proportionate influence in the House, than to vote Liberal to try to deny the Conservatives one more opposition seat. (In fact, I've done it.)

Yes, if it were likely that the federal Conservatives would win a majority of the seats in the House, I might have to pause and think. In the recent Ontario election, I did vote Liberal -- because the NDP candidate in my constituency was a no-hoper and, despite the Republican/Democrat-like similarity of Ontario's Liberals & Conservatives, the difference, though slight, *was* a difference, as I gather Noam Chomsky has said about Republicans and Democrats. (Which I guess means that if I were in the US, I would indeed hold my nose and vote Democrat.)

The Canadian context for voting decisions at the federal level is vastly different from the US context, and simply bears no resemblance to the Bush/Gore/Nader situation.

And Martin is "centrist" only to US eyes (and the eyes of those in Canada who watch too much CNN and know too little about their own political tradition) ... even if anyone had ever been able to define "centrist" to mean something other than "does stuff that I like and that doesn't interfere with my interests more than I can tolerate".

All politics involves striking balances among competing interests. Defining as "centrist" a politician or party that favours the interests of the economic haves over, and at the expense of, those of the have-nots -- which IS what both the Democratic and Liberal parties do -- is just meaningless, self-serving rhetoric on the part of those who like those policies fine.

As for those links, I like this one:
http://www.cbc.ca/disclosure/archives/030401_csl/introduction.html
CBC Disclosure's detailed and intensive examination of Paul Martin Jr.'s corporate practices and his political practices as they relate to his corporate and personal interests. All those flags of convenience, all those tax haven loopholes he allowed with his right hand, as Minister of Finance, and exploited with his left hand, as head of Canada Steamship Lines ... as if one hand didn't know what the other hand was doing.

Corruption really is the bottom line when it comes to what people the world over most object to in their government and governors, and the Liberal Party is a master of it.

And you could always google for "Basi's boys", to read about the kind of people behind Martin in the Liberal Party, and the kinds of things they have got up to in his service.

.

[Minstrel Boy]

11. Honeymoon was short. No surprise there; we've been

living with the guy for ten years.

Rick Salutin, in Friday's Globe and Mail:

People keep saying Jean Chrétien handled these scandals better because he stonewalled. I think that's true, but not because he stonewalled. By doing so, he implied his government had better, more constructive things to do than agonize over symbolic moral catastrophes. In truth, he, too, cut much and added little during his tenure, but he at least implied (symbolically) that his heart was there. Jean Chrétien always had a political instinct in the sense of knowing what people yearn for, even when they aren't sure themselves. Paul Martin has so far shown an instinct only for power.

In fact, I'd say the whole sponsorship uproar is a device people are using to begin expressing doubts about Paul Martin. They are skeptical of what he knew, and his corporate past -- the foreign flags, the public money his company got that was misreported by about 150 per cent more than that famed $100-million, etc. But nobody wants to call him a liar outright. He doesn't really look like one, more like a sincere self-deceiver, and if you did call him a liar, he might cry, which no one wants to deal with.

But those appealing personal traits, like his stumbliness and earnestness, start to lose their lustre when he seems to use them deliberately to manipulate voters, as in his ludicrous statement this week that every single Liberal in Canada is "horrified" by the disclosures. Jean Chrétien would never have insulted us quite that blatantly.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040220/COSALU20/TPColumnists/

[mac2]

103. I'm disappointed in Mr. Martin

I watched his speech on CSPAN at the Canadian convention. It was impressive. It seems to be a change of guard just like many of our politicans in this country. They lie to the people to get elected.

The number of young people at that convention also made me regret ours in this country don't get that invovled.

I think....they/we are all disappointed. Especailly when the Canadian Ambassor is meeting with the World Union leaders.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

104. It was a good speech, had me convinced for a couple of minutes

unfortunately, it hasn't translated into action. Unless there was a part of the speech where he promised to apologise profusely for everything.
It would appear Mr Martin's finest moment was his first, it's all been downhill since then.

[mac2]

109. Sorry...there was hope.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

8. Well, since the thought of Tommy Douglas chokes me up,

I guess you can make mine NDP.

"I felt that no boy should have to depend either for his leg or his life upon the ability of his parents to raise enough money to bring a first class surgeon to his bedside. I came to believe that health services ought not to have a price tag on them, and that people should be able to get whatever health services they required irrespective of their individual capacity to pay."

"I have watched politicians for the last 40 years drop their principles in order to get power only to find that those who paid and controlled the party which they joined prevented them from all the things they really believed in."



"WE AIM TO REPLACE the present capitalist system, with its inherent injustice and inhumanity, by a social order from which the domination and exploitation of one class by another will be eliminated, in which economic planning will supersede unregulated private enterprise and competition, and in which genuine democratic self-government, based upon economic equality will be possible." - Regina Manifesto, 1933

"OUR AIM AS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISTS is to build an independent socialist Canada. Our aim as supporters of the New Democratic Party is to make it a truly socialist party." - Waffle Manifesto, 1969

[George_Bonanza]

12. Tommy Douglas and David Lewis hated the Waffle guys though

[Screaming Lord Byron]

14. Lewis certainly disliked the Waffle, but Douglas was all for James Laxer

as leader after the end of his run.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

16. Three Conservative Votes? I'm all for people voting Bloc if they believe

but Tory? On DU?

[mobuto]

17. Trolls

The Freepers just ran a poll asking who they'd vote for in November, and 3% said Kerry. Same thing.

[Minstrel Boy]

18. It's Belindamania!

Scary, when you stop and think about it. Look at this rationale, from the London Free Press:

Dunn, who said she usually votes for the New Democrats and occasionally for the Liberals, is willing to vote for Stronach.

So what was it about Stronach that motivated her to make the life-altering decision to become a card-carrying member of the Conservatives?

"She's fresh," Dunn explained. "And as a businessperson she'll know the right people to get to the root of things.... I'm tired of all our politicians who are proving to be just as useless as their predecessors."

She's willing to back Stronach and the Conservatives, she said, "because we've tried everybody else. It's new and it's worth a try."

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2004/02/21/355161.html

I guess she doesn't realize that, behind "fresh" and "new" Belinda, is this gentleman:

[Screaming Lord Byron]

26. Fresh! New! Product! - Welcome to Politicsmart!

Is that it, is politics just a fucking Supermarket to them?

[iverglas]

35. Belinda debates!!

Yes, Belinda will be laying out her policies for the public, tonight on CBC.

I propose that we all have to swig whatever's in front of us every time she says "at the end of the day". Google returns a few, if you want to get a head start.

http://www.belinda.ca/Belinda/english/mediarelease_feb_19_TorontoStar.shtml

Stronach, meanwhile, also took a swipe at Harper for saying the person with the best organization and the most money will prove victorious next month.

"That, I disagree with. Our membership is smart, Canadians are smart. They will judge who has the character, who can unite this party, who has a track record and the integrity and most of all who has the ideas that at the end of the day will lead to a better quality of life for Canadians."

Oh, let's contemplate the possibilities if she and Rummy were ever in a room together:

"I am ready to be prime minister of Canada. I think in life it's important to know what you know and what you don't know and can you build a good team.

Google also offers:

Belinda Stronach, 37, told CTV she's glad to have the support of her family. "But at the end of the day I make my own decisions," she said.

"At the end of the day I can look myself in the mirror and say you know what, I gave it 100 per cent, ..."

Perhaps we could just echo one blogger's comment:

At the end of the day, Belinda's initials explain her platform.

Anyhow, the debate is the lead story on the website http://www.cbc.ca/ right now:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/02/22/debate040222

Huh, I guess it was on CPAC live this a.m., and I slept through it. I think it's on Sunday Report on Newsworld tonight at 9.

.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

39. I saw the debate, and she was so blatantly parroting talking points

it was scary. Darrell Bricker of Ipsos Reid was practically laughing at her during the CTV coverage. Tony Clement proved to be effective, though. He likely won the debate, as I saw it.

[Minstrel Boy]

79. Clement's performance

reinforced for me the impression he'd be the most formidable national Conservative leader. And Harper could do better beyond his base than I'd assumed.

Belinda? Now, more than ever! :evilgrin:

[Screaming Lord Byron]

85. Here's Roy McGregor from today's Globe and Mail on the subject

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040223.wmacgregor0223/BNStory/Front/

Tomorrow's Winner Could Well Be Layton.

And the winner is ..... Jack Layton! Let me apologize, right off, for that gratuitous and cheap evaluation of the first official debate for the leadership of the Conservative Party of Canada.

We will return, later, to the leader of the New Democratic Party, but first let us deal with yesterday afternoon's debate itself and what it told Canadians about three people who, in their own minds if not yet in the polls, are destined to become the next prime minister of Canada.

If a winner must be chosen among the three candidates — former Alliance leader Stephen Harper, former Ontario health minister Tony Clements and former car-parts manufacturer Belinda Stronach — it was most assuredly Harper.

None of that is surprising. He is, after all, the only one actually elected leader of a political party, the only one of the three with a seat in the House of Commons and, according to this weekend's Globe/CTV poll, the runaway favourite of those Canadians who say they intend to vote for this party whenever Prime Minister Paul Martin decides to call his election.

(cut)

It would be a mug's game to try and guess where each stood at the end of the debate. Harper, presumably, held his own or went up with a solid, quiet performance. Clement had only up to go. But as for Stronach, trying to figure out her appeal to voters is almost as impossible as figuring where she stands on anything.

(cut)


Harper has trouble in Ontario and no chance in the east; Clement may be feisty but is, so far, unknown outside Ontario; and Stronach risks alienating the West should she somehow win through the membership votes of the one province, Quebec, that will ultimately not vote for her party. All this means one of the three had better emerge over the next month and rise both to the occasion and to the demands of a difficult, complicated country. Otherwise, no matter what the polls of the moment are saying, a guy called Jack Layton may eventually prove to be the real winner of this rather strange and rather compelling race to lead the Conservative Party of Canada.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

86. Incidentally, John Ibbotson in The Globe reckons Harper to be a shoo in.

But the more I think about it, the more I think Clement won the debate. Of course he won't win. He looks funny. Unfortunately for him, Harper looks the part. That probably has a lot to do with winning, I'm afraid.

Here's Ibbotson's column.
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040223.wibbi0223/BNStory/Front/

[Minstrel Boy]

87. Just read Ibbotson, and was struck again by

Clement's remark "If the election is about us, we lose." Now there's a telling quote to be thrown in their faces come the election. Why is that, Tony? Why can't your party bear examination?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

88. Yeah, I think quite a few Tories picked up on that remark.

There is such a thing as too much honesty, Tony.

On Edit - You know, the Tories really are the anti-NDP. They want the electorate to vote for them in spite of who they are, they don't want extra publicity. Whereas in the NDP, we have to fight for every piece of publicity we can get, we welcome and need every news story on us, we provide strong personalities.

[Minstrel Boy]

95. interesting observation

In most regions, the NDP isn't a natural protest vote. To vote NDP, you must be voting for something, not against something else. British Columbia would be, I think, the most obvious exception.

So, unlike the Conservatives, to the degree the election is about us, we should do well.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

96. I saw BC Provincial Opinion Poll at the Weekend - Libs 40, NDP 40

I think that can officially end the lag that the Provincial Party put on the Federal Party for the last couple of elections. That combined with some strong candidates (Brent Bush in Kootenay-Columbia, Jean Crowder and Scott Fraser in the Nanaimo seats, Ian Waddell (former riding MP in Vancouver Kingsway) makes seat gains in BC a good bet.

[iverglas]

90. good grief, eh?

What did that woman do at Magna board meetings? At one point in the debate, she tried three times to pronounce "judiciary" and gave up. And there was Harper, rattling off words like "interoperability". Maybe her board meetings were like Bush's cabinet meetings: scripted.

But hey, she stayed on message. Whatever it was.

Clement and Harper are both competent and intelligent, and both came off better than I expected. None of the lot of them actually had anything to say, as far as I could tell.

.

[Minstrel Boy]

93. Is Belinda an only child?

It's the only explanation I can think of for daddy giving her the keys to the company. Poppy Bush has Jeb, Neil and Marvin, so there's no explaining George.

The pronouciation of "judiciary": I presume that's part of the 10 k she needs to make up, when she goes "from 90 to 100 kilometres an hour."

[Screaming Lord Byron]

94. I think it's now perfectly clear that there is an ulterior motive

to the Stronach campaign. It's the only reason that makes sense. What that reason is, only Brian Mulroney knows.

[iverglas]

99. ulterior motive

My one idea was that it was to get anybody outside the Conservative Party backrooms to notice there was a leadership campaign underway ...

I wasn't paying the closest attention; I noticed Tony hitting on her a bit for her inability to utter a coherent thought/policy, but did Stephen?

Since he's pretty much the foregone conclusion, he wouldn't have much incentive to even notice her himself, let alone draw attention to her by debating her. One might wonder whether there's some benefit to him in having her around. Even if it's just money; let her play/use her for publicity, and she'll eventually pay.

Who knows? Jeezus, wouldn't you think she'd be embarrassed, though??

.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

100. Seriously rich people don't do embarassment.

That emotion is strictly for the poor. I think Stronach is up because Mulroney et al have calculated that Harper can't win on the first ballot. If Harper can't win on the first ballot, his chances collapse in the face of an 'Anyone But Harper' movement. Stronach can then triumph over the nerdy-looking (shallow? we all know that's how some poeple vote, and unfortunately, Tony looks every inch the nebbish) Clement and take power. The calculation then is that Stronach is a useful puppet to be moulded in whichever fashion Mulroney and Harris decide.

[JohnLocke]

21. The Bloc link doesn't work.

Just so you know...

[Minstrel Boy]

22. A better link:

http://www.blocquebecois.org/

Mais, tout en francais.

[JohnLocke]

23. Can I read it in English?

I only know Spanish, not French!

[Minstrel Boy]

24. I don't think the BQ provides an English version.

Though there's always the somewhat-reliable babelfish:

http://world.altavista.com/

[JohnLocke]

25. Hmm...It would be quite ironic if BQ provided the English, I suppose.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

27. Thanks. Too late to fix now.

Come to think of it, it would be rather ironic if the Bloc had a .ca, now wouldn't it?

[JohnLocke]

38. Yes, it would.

Also if it had an English page. Quite amusing. Do you support independence for Quebec? Or some form of autonomy like Wales and Scotland?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

40. I will support whatever the majority of Quebec voters decide.

I'll leave it at that!

[JohnLocke]

43. What do the majority of Quebec voters want?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

44. There's a sizable percentage (usually around 40%) of Quebeckers

who favour some form of 'sovereignty association' between Canada and Quebec. As to what that sovereignty association is, I am not qualified to answer. I suspect it's a 'have our cake and eat it' scenario. However, Democracy must prevail.

[PatrickS]

19. I usually vote Liberal...

but Jack Layton is an interesting leader! I need to hear more from him but right now I think I might be voting NDP. I don't like Martin being so chummy with Dumbya.

[Minstrel Boy]

20. Jack Layton

is precisely what the NDP needed. He'd been my city councillor for years, so I knew what he could do, but I've been surprised he's done as much as he has in the year he's been leader. The guy's tireless. He's all over the country, and outside it too. (A week ago he was in Washington meetng with congressional opponents of Star Wars, and speaking at Duke University, zipping from one end of the country to the other for riding nominations, plus reacting to the latest Liberal scandal.)

Thanks largely to Jack, the NDP's going to be waging the most exciting and viable national campaign in its history. It should be fun to watch, and to be part of.

"I need to hear more from him"

Some audio and video of Layton, from the NDP's website:

http://tinyurl.com/2kn78

[PROGRESSIVE1]

28. I'm an American just so you know, who happens to generally....

support the Liberal Party. As of now I would have to support
the NDP. The Liberal Party is anything but Liberal with
Paul Martin. Sorry to see that they choose him as their
"leader", if that's what you call him.

I do not want to see another country move to the right.

[TrogL]

29. And how, exactly, does the NDP intend on funding all that?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

30. Well, I imagine they could cut the Quebec Advertising Budget..

Could cut out a couple of kickbacks here and there, we'll be fine!

[iverglas]

36. and gosh

(Whatever "all that" is ...)

Do you suppose that's what Liberals were once saying about universal public healthcare, and old age security, and all the other ideas they eventually cribbed from the CCF/NDP and acquiesced in, in order to stay in power, that are now cornerstones of Canadian society?

How ya gonna fund all that, eh??

.

[Dissenting_Prole]

33. The Greens

are likely the only party that will ever acknowledge Peak Oil before it happens.


http://www.brant.net/gvmr/electric.htm

[Minstrel Boy]

77. Layton's NDP has a lot of small-G cred:

While a Toronto city councillor, Layton was responsible for the erection of Canada's first urban wind turbine. And a number of senior Green Party officials, including its former leader, recently joined the NDP thanks to Layton's "getting it."

Executive Director of Greenpeace, Peter Tabuns, is a longtime NDPer, and is standing for nomination this election as a candidate in the Toronto riding of Beaches-East York.

Letter from David Suzuki to Layton commending his strategy to develop " much-needed program to build a Canadian market for green vehicles": http://www.ndp.ca/campaigns/SuzukiGreenLetter.html

[HEyHEY]

37. Spanky the wonder chimp!

Oh wait that's Vancouver Civic elections only.

Well, I did vote Bloc last time....no joke I was living in Qubec and couldn't pass up the chance. However, I'll go Liberal this next time I think.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

41. What riding are you registered in, HEyHEY?

[HEyHEY]

47. I think it's McLeod region

[Screaming Lord Byron]

50. Ah, I thought you'd be registered back in Vancouver

Where your vote might count.
Macleod Results 2000
Grant Hill (Alliance) 70.05%
Liberal - 9.41%
NDP - 6.7%

Ouch.

[HEyHEY]

56. Registerd - yeah in Port Moody/Coquitlam

James Moore's riding..... I loathe that fucking tard

[Screaming Lord Byron]

60. Then you should probably vote there. The CA have it 50-29

[HEyHEY]

64. And it was a liberal riding last time

But the particular Liberal was a crooked ass, and that's why he was ousted. Before that, it was Reform, then the MP stepped down because her family had health problems. I honestly think it will go Liberal this time.

BUt it is hard to tell.... See, a lot of Young Yuppie types have moved in..I mean ALOT. I don't know if they're the North Van, lefty yuppie types - or the West Van Ruthless bastard Yuppie types :shrug: but they are yuppies none the less.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

66. Of course, Lou Sekora, former mayor of Coquitlam.

From the Mel Lastman School of Mayors, right?

[HEyHEY]

81. There is the coolest picture I remember

Of him cleaing out his office....there's a half drank bottle of booze on his desk

[iverglas]

42. "However, I'll go Liberal this next time I think." - a Q.

Have you ever *not* gone Liberal? -- I mean seriously, not just voting Bloc for shits and giggles, presumably in an election in which your vote would have no determining effect whatsoever.

Have you ever even seriously considered not voting Liberal? Can you imagine not voting Liberal?

I ask because I'm genuinely curious -- I wonder what it was in the past, or what it might be in the future, that gave you serious pause or might cause you to actually vote for another party/candidate.

What might another party do (or not do) that would persuade you to vote for it? Conversely, what might the Liberal Party do (or not do) -- or what circumstances might there be -- that would persuade you to vote against it?

In the 1974 federal election, I voted Tory -- both because my local NDP candidate, for whom I campaigned, did not have a chance, and because I wanted the arrogant (and un-liberal) Trudeau Liberal government out at all costs. (Some readers might need to understand that other than the decade from 1984 to 1993, Canadian (Progressive) Conservatives were never the party of international capital.)

In the 2003 Ontario election, I voted Liberal -- in this case because I thought that the 3-way split in my historically Liberal/NDP swing riding might be close enough for the Conservative to squeak in, and I really did want to oust the Harris/Eves Tories at all costs.

If you had certain knowledge that the Liberals were going down to massive defeat nationally in the next election, and the race in your riding were between the NDP and the Conservative candidate, which would you vote for, hopefully to form the government?

If you had a reasonable expectation that the Liberals would hold enough seats to maintain a plurality but not a majority in the House, i.e. that other seats would split in such a way that no other party had a majority either, but your local Liberal candidate didn't have a prayer, which would you vote for in the hope that his/her party would have the next largest number of seats, or enough seats to hold the balance of power?

If the Liberals won a plurality but not a majority, would you approve of the Liberals governing with the support of the Conservatives, according to policies acceptable to the Conservatives and unacceptable to the NDP? Or would you approve of an effective Liberal/NDP coalition against the Conservatives, requiring the Liberals to govern in a way acceptable to the NDP?

Like I said -- genuinely curious. Being a Liberal pretty much means not having to worry, in Canada. What if you had something to worry about?

.

[HEyHEY]

48. When I was young and stupid and hated Eastern Canada

I voted Reform. When I was 19 I was a serious seperatist for Western Canada. I bought in to all the Reform "Stand up to Ottawa" Bullshit. Not my finest hour, but a young man with too much anger tends to do silly things.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

51. Man, I applaud your honesty.

[HEyHEY]

53. It's easy - don't feel it's anything to hide

I mean when I grew up in BC, it was all about Quebec...everywhere. It's easy to see how a young man could "fall in with the wrong crowd."

Truthfully, if ever there came a left wing BC seperation party, I can't say for sure I'd be against it. BC and Alberta have been shafted over the years...but things are coming together now. If they went back the way they were I wouldn't vote CA, but I would still hold alot of resenment.

[iverglas]

54. hey -- me too!

When *I* was very young and foolish, I worked on a federal Liberal campaign. It shames me to admit it, but there you are.

But that was 1968, it was Trudeaumania, and I was 15 ... and by the time they lowered the voting age to below my own age, I had smartened up ... although I still didn't get to vote, due to a concerted effort by local election officials (yup, Liberals) to keep university students off the voters' list.

Actually, I'd smartened up by 1969, when the NDP candidate I worked for actually won a provincial by-election in whitebread London, Ontario, then the home of all that was Tory - a feat not to be repeated for a long time. And so I thought for a while that if I just worked hard enough, my candidate would win. By 1974 I'd been disillusioned of that one too, that being the time I campaigned NDP but voted Tory. (Hey, add that one, and the 2003 Liberal vote, and shurely I get a standing ovation for confessions!)

.

[HEyHEY]

55. How strong was the NDP during Trudeaumania?

PS I touch his coffin - you're in the area did you make the trip or no?

[iverglas]

68. NDP support historically

How strong was the NDP during Trudeaumania?

Remember, the NDP held the balance of power during the minority Liberal government 1972-1974.
http://207.61.100.164/canadisk/10oct/canmilesoct30.html

Pierre Elliott Trudeau ... wins federal election 109 seats to 107 for the PCs under Robert Stanfield; 31 NDP; 15 Social Credit; 2 Independent; gets 45.5% of popular vote.

And remember that in 1968 I was in London Ont., where even the idea of a *Liberal* winning was revolutionary. ;) The NDPer who took working-class London East in 1969 (just after I split that burg) was a United Church minister, and the entire strength of the provincial NDP was brought in because it was a by-election: Stephen Lewis was the guy arranging for me to get rides home from my university town to finish my canvassing.)

Also London is where Conservative and Liberal converge in a puddle of wealth and privilege -- both former Tory Premier John Robarts and former Liberal Premier David Peterson come from there, and Peterson is married to a daughter of the long-time Ontario Conservative party president. London is all about money, status and power. You might know the Tory daughter (I went to school with her smarter sisters) -- Shelley Peterson (née Matthews), of the execrable sitcom about the talking St. Bernard, and the even worse attempt to recreate Yes, Minister in Canadian format a few years back. She's an "actress" the way Belinda Stronach is a politician -- money will buy just about anything!

And remember first-past-the-post: NDP support has never been reflected in seats in the House. This proportional-representation advocacy site notes:
http://www.fairvotecanada.org/fvc/AboutFairVoting/10

Since World War I, Canada has had 15 majority governments. In each case, one party held a majority of seats and exercised 100 per cent of the power.

But how many of these governments actually won a majority of the popular vote? Only four. Four legitimate majority governments over the past eight decades!

And it’s getting worse, not better. Since the mid 1960s, Canada has had eight majority governments, with only one having received support by a majority of voters, and that one just by a hair <1984>. In fact, in 1997, the Liberals formed a majority government with only 39 per cent of the popular vote.

Forgive my wandering, just things I've found while trying to find out what the NDP's share of the popular vote was in 68.

In the 68 election:
http://www1.sympatico.ca/news/Specials/2000/trudeau/timeline.html

Trudeau wins election 155 seats to 72 <Conservative>; 22 NDP; 14 Creditiste; 1 other. Defeats Robert Stanfield with 45.5% of popular vote

Damn, I just can't find anywhere that gives a popular vote figure for the NDP in the 1968 election. But isn't it being said this month that NDP support in opinion polls is equivalent to what it was in the 60s? That's a general idea, I suppose -- in any event it was higher in the 60s than it's been in some years.

On the "Trudeaumania" part of it -- I imagine you're wondering whether this had an effect, of siphoning off NDP votes. I'd say it did. And from that we should learn the lesson that "social liberalism" should never be mistaken for progressive policy. Trudeau may have got the state out of the bedrooms of the nation, but he also brought us years of "wage and price controls" (read: wage freezes and uncontrolled price rises).

you're in the area did you make the trip or no?

You've confused me -- which area, and which trip??

I went to Tommy Douglas's memorial service, and Stanley Knowles' lying in state on the Hill, but I taped Trudeau's funeral on TV and have actually never got around to watching it. ;)

.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

73. It's all here, at the Political Database of the Americas

http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Elecdata/Canada/parl68.html

Go nuts!

[iverglas]

76. well ta for that ...

Except -- that particular page seems to be blank. ;) (I even tried turning javascript on.)

The 1972 one shows the NDP with 17.7% of the vote to the Liberals' 38.5% -- and 31 seats to their 109. (And the Tories with 35% and 107 seats.)

In 1974 we had 15.4% of the vote and 16 seats -- shows how screwy first past the post can be.

31/264 is 11.7% of the seats, nowhere near the 17.7% popular vote ... and 16/264 is 6% of the seats, a far cry from 15.4% of the vote. Also, the popular vote dropped 2.3% between the two elections -- and the number of seats was cut in half.

But I still don't know what our popular vote was in 68!

.

[HEyHEY]

80. The trip to Trudeau's state

Sorry I thought you lived near the Quebec border

[iverglas]

89. ah!

Yes of course -- Quebec, you mean? You lived in Trois-Rivières, I lived in Trois-Pistoles. ;) Wait til I tell the gang in the gun dungeon that one.

Actually, a "pistole" was a unit of currency. Legend has it that a French colonial soldier, or a voyageur, or some such, leaned over the little local river, or the St. Lawrence, to get a drink, and dropped his cup into the water and lost it. Damn, he said, there goes three pistoles.

.

[Minstrel Boy]

83. "can't find anywhere that gives a popular vote figure...

...for the NDP in the 1968 election"

17% - not bad for the high water mark of Trudeaumania.

Got it from this site, which the Screaming Lord (not Black of Fleet) told me about: http://www.nodice.ca/election2004/index.html

[Screaming Lord Byron]

58. Well, if it's true confessions time, I voted for these guys once...

http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/

and this guy in particular

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msps/biogs/sheridan_tommy.htm

One of the world's few Marxist Nationalist Parties!

[HEyHEY]

62. Okay ! that's it- never speak to me again!

:-) ;-)

[Screaming Lord Byron]

63. It was to impress a girl. Seriously!

[HEyHEY]

65. That's too funny

did it work?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

67. Er...Yeah. Sadly.

[iverglas]

69. sad effort to compete

You, trying to represent voting for the good guy(s) as equivalent to me having to vote for

http://www.ic.gc.ca/cmb/welcomeic.nsf/vRTF/History/$file/decotret.gif

Robert René de Cotret. (That's his last name -- René de Cotret. Very suave, very old-money.) Durn, I can't get the link to his smarmy visage to work, but it's here: http://www.ic.gc.ca/cmb/welcomeic.nsf/ICPages/HistoryMinistersOther
The 6-month Minister of Industry in Joe (I'm going to govern as if I had a majority) Clark's 6-month government.

I forget whether it was he or Hughie Segal whom Maureen McTeer cast off in favour of Joe Clark ...

Nope, you're taking that Canadian self-deprecation and humility thing too far, I'm feared.

.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

72. Well, It was worth a try!

[HEyHEY]

49. Also

Well, it's tricky to answer the last part of your blurb. I personally am not a huge fan of the NDP. I've seen their policies destroy a lot of British Columbia, however, that was a provincial NDP party. As for the Federal NDP, I'm a bit undecided. I think a lot of their ideals are a bit far-fetch and I don't agree with them. On the other hand, I strongly agree with some.
As for the Conservatives, I'll never want any party in power that doesn't understand what nation they're in. The old CA tried too often to bring religion and family values into Canadian politics, we aren't that kind of country - if they can't see that, they have no business running.

You've raised and interesting question and I'll have to give it some thought.

[gula]

45. Still undecided

I voted NDP in the last few elections even though they had some real dingbats running in my riding, but I didn't want the liberals to get too much of a majority. So much for wishful thinking.

This year the NDP appears to have a viable candidate. I have to find out more about both their platform and him personally. Also the liberal guy is new.

My favorite outcome would be a small liberal majority with the NDP as the opposition and a very few conservatives. They scare me.

Although. living in Québec, we will probably get a lot of Bloc members. I do like some of their ideas, but can't see myself vote for a local party in a national election. Also I am not a separatist. That might change if ever the "new and improved" Alliance aka Conservative Party comes to power.

Having grown up in Switzerland I still find it sad that we as citizens have so little input. We vote every few years and then they do whatever they want anyway and there doesn't seem anything we can do about it. I do not for one minute advocate the Swiss system here. It is messy and really slows things down. I am only suggesting that there should be some way in which we could have a greater say.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

46. Hey, if the Alliance ever came to power, we're all seperatists!

;)

[HEyHEY]

52. Where in QUebec do you live?

I used to live in Trois Rivereis...and never did learn how to spell it.

[gula]

70. Montreal, federal riding of Outremont

In the hip Plateau area, although when I moved there it was still part of Mile End which is very multicultural, great place.

[Minstrel Boy]

84. Outremont

should be interesting to watch.

Omar Aktouf's running for the NDP, so they have a credible candidate with a sound local profile. And the Liberals are running Jean Lapierre, back from having founded the BQ, who's been newly christened Martin's Quebec lieutenant.

[gula]

91. How's that for weird

A founding member of the BQ as Québec lieutenant.

I must admit, so far I've been underwhelmed by Martin's performance. I just can't figure the guy out and also he seems to look lost a lot of the time.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

92. It's simple, he's not a fighter, he lacks the killer punch.

You can judge all politicians by whether they have the killer instinct or not. Trudeau had it, Clark didn't. Bouchard had it (sometimes), Duceppe doesn't (Landry doesn't seem to either). The killer punch is the ability to rise to the occasion, to turn an issue to your own purposes, to dominate, simply put, to score a hit on your opponent. Martin seems to come up lacking all of this, and he'd better hope he's going up against Belinda Stronach, because Jack Layton has it, and Stephen Harper may also have it.

[gula]

105. Thanks, that explains a lot

Please do not mention L***y's name in my presence.

Duceppe will be forever remembered as wearing a shower cap. Too bad, for him I mean, that he didn't inherit any of his father's acting abilities.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

106. I guess that name would be like a red rag to a bull for you?

To quote one of his finer moments!

[gula]

108. He is such a twerp

I do have to laugh sometimes. Can't believe they haven't got rid of him yet.

[Minstrel Boy]

98. The Lib incumbant, Martin Cauchon, was solidly in Chretien's camp,

and I wonder how his being replaced by Jean "sovereigntist? moi?" Lapierre is sitting with the riding's Liberals.

Outremont was, I believe, the NDP's strongest showing in Quebec in 2000. (Which is saying next to nothing, of course, since the NDP bottomed out province-wide.) Now that the NDP's polling double-digits in Quebec with a Montreal-born leader, and a strong local candidate has been nominated, I'd be curious to see some polls of the riding.

[gula]

107. Uncomfortable

A lot of people I talk to appear to be uncomfortable with Martin's getting rid of most of the Chrétien people, especially what he is doing to Sheila Copps. I sent an e-mail to Cauchon about it but never got an answer. I like Cauchon mainly because he has the perfect name for a politician. (Cochon = pig)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. I feel really ignorant after reading your post.

What is the Swiss system?

[HEyHEY]

59. They vote on everything

Referendum mania

I believe that's what I was told...if I'm wrong someone correct me.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

61. Can't your neighbours vote you out of your apartment

if they don't like you?
Isn't that Switzerland?

[gula]

71. Never heard that one.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

74. Fair enough, it's probably a barely recollected memory.

[gula]

75. Referenda mania is right

The people can ask for a referendum on many things. In the last few elections the people voted mostly against the government positions. That doesn't make governing exactly easy.

Anyway, here is a link for more info: http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/pore/index.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

78. Thanks for the informative link

If my Quid 2003 is right about the population, (7260000), the 50000 signatures required to force a referendum comes to only .68 % of the population. Wow!

[Cascadian]

82. I would be a borderline Trudeauist Liberal /NDP.

You Canadians should be so lucky to have a wide range of political choices unlike us down here.


John

[Screaming Lord Byron]

97. Good news from Saskatchewan. Pankiw and Spencer are running as independent

Jim Pankiw MP (Saskatoon-Humboldt) and Larry Spencer MP (Regina-Lumsden-Lake Centre) are both running as Independents against the will of the CPC. Both men were thrown out of the Alliance for basic bigotry, Spencer for deranged homophobia, Pankiw for general hatred of non-white people. This will split the right-wing vote and likely lead to an NDP win over Spencer who only had a majority of 158 over the NDP in 2000 (there was no PC candidate, so no Right to unite) and a possible NDP win in Pankiw's seat (Pankiw held a 6,360 maj. over the NDP in 2000).

[Minstrel Boy]

101. I've heard that Nettie Wiebe

is likely to be the NDP nominee in Saskatoon-Humboldt, which would be great news, though I've yet to see it confirmed. Former pres. of the National Farmers Union and Sask cabinent minister; ran from the left for the leadership of the Sask NDP.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

102. I haven't seen her confirmed, I think the meeting is Mar 5th.

We're going to take at least two extra seats in SK.

[Shadowen]

110. I *never* vote for a major party.

The only one that shares most of my views--the Liberal party--seems hopelessly corrupt, nepotismically speaking. I usually vote for a "non-official" (less than 12 members in the House) party with whom I share ideals.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

111. So you're a Radical Centrist, then?

[Shadowen]

112. Something like that, yes.

And proud of it.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

113. Very interesting. Trudeau would've said that of himself.