People who leave: Cowards or Smart?

[Gringo]

Poll question: People who leave: Cowards or Smart?

My last poll of the day: The scenario is a Dumbya landslide in '04 (I'm praying that this is far-fetched), The media and the congress allow them to turn this country into a full-on police-state, with public execution of dissidents, etc.

What do you think of people who bail and leave the country when they see this coming.

[IndianaGreen]

1. German Jewish Refugees, 1933-1939

If you wait too long, you may not be able to leave, or like it happened to the German Jews, you may find that other countries don't want to take you.

GERMAN JEWISH REFUGEES, 1933-1939

Several factors determined the ebb and flow of emigration of Jews from Germany. These included the degree of pressure placed on the Jewish community in Germany and the willingness of other countries to admit Jewish immigrants. However, in the face of increasing legal repression and physical violence, many Jews fled Germany. Until October 1941, German policy officially encouraged Jewish emigration. Gradually, however, the Nazis sought to deprive Jews fleeing Germany of their property by levying an increasingly heavy emigration tax and by restricting the amount of money that could be transferred abroad from German banks.

In January 1933 there were some 523,000 Jews in Germany, representing less than 1 percent of the country's total population. The Jewish population was predominantly urban and approximately one-third of German Jews lived in Berlin. The initial response to the Nazi takeover was a substantial wave of emigration (37,000-38,000), much of it to neighboring European countries (France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Czechoslovakia, and Switzerland). Most of these refugees were later caught by the Nazis after their conquest of western Europe in May 1940. Jews who were politically active were especially likely to emigrate. Other measures that spurred decisions to emigrate in the early years of Nazi rule were the dismissal of Jews from the civil service and the Nazi-sponsored boycott of Jewish-owned stores.

During the next two years there was a decline in the number of emigrants. This trend may partly have been due to the stabilization of the domestic political situation, but was also caused by the strict enforcement of American immigration restrictions as well as the increasing reluctance of European and British Commonwealth countries to accept additional Jewish refugees.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005468

[mitchtv]

9. cowards no,smart yes

i would love to go,but I am to old and dependent on medicine It is easy to say I will stay and fight. Thats one thing, but to stay and be rounded up- that's another. I don't see straight people standing up when the come looking for Gays and believe me they're close to the top of the list of scapegoats

[jpgray]

2. If everyone leaves it for someone else

there won't be anyone else.

[geomon]

12. but if there are not enough people willing to

get off their lazy asses than the smart ones will leave.

[quinnox]

3. Other

I don't condemn or praise anyone for leaving the country. I encourage anyone unhappy in the U.S. to leave and see no problem with it.

[leftofthedial]

4. they may be smart

they may be cowards or they may be brave.

But they are not patriots.

[redeye]

13. Of course they're not patriots

The question is, is being unpatriotic bad? The answer is not only that being unpatriotic is good, but also that it is imperative for rationality and self-preservation, for the patriot always puts his country over himself and over other people and should be ready to behead himself at the country's command.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. it just depends who you show loyalty to

A person who only shows loyalty to themselves can't really expect others to show loyalty to them can they? That goes for family, friends, neighbors and fellow Americans.

Of course you can make any definition of patriot you want to, but it matters how real people actually use the word ... which has little to do with beheading oneself.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

5. Those that flee, or would flee,

are cowards.

Those that refuse to stand and fight for what is true and what is right do not deserve the freedom paid for by those that have stood, and have fought, and who have bled and died, to pay for freedom.

Those that would abandon others to suffer at the hands of tyranny are worse than cowards, they are traitors to their brothers and sisters.

I have nothing good to say about any that would flee, I have nothing but curses and vitriol for them. I will not stop them from fleeing though, but once the battle is won I would not allow them back, for they will have shown thier true colors and will have shown themselves to be worth nothing. And If the battle is lost, well then I will be at peace, and those that fled will not, for tyranny is not a beast to be satiated until it has devoured all. Those that flee will flee forever and never find peace, nor freedom, for even in their flight they will be enslaved by the tyranny.

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry

[sweetheart]

7. He who fights and runs away...

... yea yea... The omen to leave for me was when i was walking from broadway towards battery park city in New York back in 97... a cop blocked my path and put his hand on his gun insisting i walk a different path. Intuitively i saw that he really might shoot me... and i realized that the police would just shoot me.

The confirmation was being jumped by a gang of police in battery park for having my dogs off leash in the grassy area like i had done every day for years... and the new zero tolerance had them hand cuff me, take my dogs and vocally threaten me while a crowd gathered to gawk at the off-leash criminal.

I know that had i stayed in america, i would be dead now. I know it in my body like an animal knows when a hunter has it in its sights... so i left. Since then, i have been a rather prolific writer, published in london, australia and scotland, as well as on the internet.. all asserting liberal values against totalitarian american police state hubris.

You could say i'm not a patriot, that i'm a coward... and surely i won't argue with you... but after leaving, in my own heart, i am more a patriot for the truth in america than i could afford to be while i was in country.

The jews who left germany turned the tide in the ensuing war. To me that is a role model for patriotism of the most penetrating kind... perhaps one day you will flee for YOUR life, and then being so pious about others won't quite be so easy.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

8. Not once

Did I mention patriotism.

As a matter of fact I strictly avoided it.

Why?

Because it plays no part in the question at hand.

I said what I truly feel, I am disappointed that such a small percentage of DUers feel that freedom and liberty of themselves and their fellows is not something worth fighting for. That they would flee and buy time for themselves while others suffer.

Really seems to be nothing more than selfishness. I guess the motto 'Ask not what your Country can do for you, Ask what you can do for you Country' is something that has been lost. That actually causes me to be deeply saddened.

A couple of Quotes by Sam Adams:

Before the Revolution:

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

and After:

The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: they purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood, and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men.

So, in My opinion, if you flee and allow tyrrany to reign, you betray not your country, but you fellow countrymen and women. You betray them by fleeing as surely as if you had led them to the gallows.

[sweetheart]

17. you need to explain yourself, mate

Besides quoting american hero's... what resistance do you achieve in your daily experience. As a free slave berated by you for selling liberal america out to the gallows, i have a right to ask.

Firstly to win politically, one must survive. As was pointed out on a discussion like this a while back, while some might romantisize about leaving, very very few ever will... so few in fact that it will never tip the balance further in favour of neocons... rather those liberals abroad will form healthy expat support for liberals at home maybe even returning one day when their lives and liberty are not at risk... i pay taxes like you do, so spare me the hubris.

In my time in america, i have endured homelessness, no medical treatment for 15 years, being threatened with drawn guns by police in Los Angeles (for road infractions).. working at minimum wage, being beaten up by a gang in LA, being burgled, being arrested and jailed for a day for saying fuck you to another person in briarcliff manor new york.... and a whole litany of nauseating assaults on my petty attempt to survive. I have all the love of a beaten wife for police state USA... you can keep it.

In britain, i have seen how well certain areas of government can work... the police have never threatened me and don't carry guns... my member of parliment has written me a personal letter when i wrote him on an issue... similarly with my local council... I figure that since america pissed on my goodwill, i give it these days to the people around me in britain where it is much more appreciated...and that alone helps.

I agree with you that it is the dharma for some people to stay and fight... like the resistance inside germany... but those people, like yourself, have had high probability of survival... whereas, some like me had some really rough bumps along the bottom... and i will never ever ever ever have a person pointing a loaded gun at me, expecially with my taxes paying for the bullets... that is my standard for civil society and no matter what the excuse, american police state is out of line and i, as a citizen of conscience, cannot tolerate it.

[geomon]

14. Show your cards..I call

OK WTF are you doing to fight then???

[proud patriot]

6. Other

Everybodies got to do what feels right for themselves .
It's a personal choice , I don't begrudge anyone who
would want to leave , that's just not my choice .

[Nay]

10. As a person with both Canadian and American citizenships but

with a U.S. history that goes back to 1650 and TWO fighters in the Revolutionary War, I have mixed feelings about people leaving the U.S. rather than staying and fighting. First, 2 of my ancestors stayed and fought here, but I also remember that they FLED the country they were from (Scotland) because of repression. They did not "stay and fight" in Scotland. So, My family has historically done both.

Secondly, "fighting" back then and "fighting" now are two whole different animals. The Rev War fellows actually had a chance to beat the redcoats because the disparity in their weaponry was not so vast that they could be immediately overwhelmed. Here and now in the U.S., armed insurrection is doomed to fail unless a large part of the military defects to our side and brings their weapaons, tanks, etc., with them. "Red Dawn" ain't gonna happen here, folks.

Thirdly, many U.S. citizens may leave because they realize that the society here is simply not for them -- God knows there are plenty of rightwingers who love what is going on, and maybe, just maybe, they are the ones who should end up cleaning up the mess, not the people like us who have been pissing into a hurricane for the past 3 years. But we need to realize that many people do not feel that this is a mess at all -- they want their goodies, and they really think it's OK that every corporate and gov entity can peek into their very lives, if it means they can get 10% off on their next SUV.

Fourth,moving to a different country does not mean giving up the fight. Plenty of underground members fled, and snuck back to do plenty of damage. I personally would like to see a huge American-type TV network set up in Canada, to be used to beam liberal messages. That network would not be subject to the economic and political pressures that one on American soil would be subject to.

Personally, my allegiance is to the idea of democracy and freedom, as embodied in the Constitution. I don't necessarily have any allegiance to a particular piece of ground, or a particular people or language. This may simply be my Buddhist beliefs speaking. (And speaking of Buddhism, the Dalai Lama fled Tibet and has done more good for his country in exile than he would ever have been able to do by staying in Tibet. In fact, he would be DEAD if he had stayed.)

Finally, the number of refugees that will flee from here to elsewhere will be extremely small. It is doubtful that they would have made any difference by staying. I suspect that many or most who flee will always wonder if they did the right thing, but then that is the human condition.

[redeye]

11. I'll leave...

...I don't think that self-preservation is sad at all.

[ClintonTyree]

15. If Bush wins again.............

then I will leave. In my opinion if the American people want this type of governemnt they can have it. The die will have been cast and there is nothing that will be able to change it. You can stay and fight, but you'll be fighting a losing battle. The conservatives will have taken total control (they almost have now) and we'll be past the point of no return. My remaining days will be spent enjoying life from a safe distance, not fighting a losing battle where my life will be a total hell. If I were a younger man perhaps my answer would be different, but at my stage of life I'll give up and let the conservatives and the people who supported them wallow in their in own filth. This is not the country I grew up knowing and loving. It has become a brutish, cynical, selfish beast that will slowly, but ever so surely, fall into chaos and ruin.

[THUNDER HANDS]

16. I'd leave

Stay and fight for what?

IF Bush wins in 2004 then liberalism and progressive ideas are dead in America.

And Canada is much closer to the society we as liberals, want anyway.

I urge every liberal to bolt for the great white north. Leave this country to the braindead moderates and the evil conservatives and watch them destroy it.

Maybe in 20 years I'll come back just to look around and laugh.

[Gringo]

18. That's kinda beautiful, actually.

I love you guys, even the ones who call me a coward for considering leaving. With the kind of desparation eveident in these threads, I'm confident that we are all going to give 125% to the fight to elect the non-Lieberman nominee next fall.

[monarch]

19. What would we be fighting for?

If Bush's crowd gets another four years, the country we love will be gone and the only thing left to fight over will be a chunk of land that will ultimately be polluted beyond recognition.

[LiberalLibra]

21. I voted "Other", we all have issues and reasons why staying or leaving...

...is best for us and/or our families, so to call someone who leaves a "coward" is just plain unfair.