jobs americans don't want

[mopinko]

i, personally, cannot believe there is such a thing IF it pays a living wage. and the same goes for h1b visas. many tech workers coming here, even during the boom, were brought in to keep wages down. don't get me wrong, i am not anti-immigrant. i just want an intellectually honest discussion of the issues. a minimum wage, even for farm workers. the minimum wage should allow a single person to pay the bills. any government job/contracted job should pay a LIVING wage, enough for a family of 4 to eat regularly. why the hell should the tax payers be subsidizing businesses by giving their workers food stamps, housing vouchers, etc?? talk about your corporate welfare. this bush plan is just a way to undercut wages.

[FreakinDJ]

1. Bush is closing the gap

why the hell should the tax payers be subsidizing businesses by giving their workers food stamps, housing vouchers, etc?? talk about your corporate welfare. this bush plan is just a way to undercut wages.

Bushit is closing the gap in between the "Rich class" and the "Poor Class"

[Touchdown]

33. Do you mean widening the gap?

Closing the gap would mean bringing the two closer in parity.

You could mean closing the vise.;-)

[are_we_united_yet]

2. "jobs americans don't want"

Read: Corporations refuse to pay Americans a nominal salary for products and/or services for their own reasons.

One immediately can speculate greed is the motive.

Perhaps these Corporations could share an opposing point of view.

[Cleita]

3. In my area, a rural and agricultural area as well as

a vacation spot, the farm workers get $10 an hour and some benefits because they are unionized thanks to the work and sacrifices of Cesar Chavez. The power of the unions have been weakened in the last century. We need to reverse this because it is organized labor that has the ability to force the corporations to pay decent wages and benefits.

[readmylips]

4. Jobs Americans don't want like....

public school teachers and college professors. My niece, an economics major, is taking an advance class in edonomics, twice she changed her class. The two professors teaching the subject are from India and their English accents are worse than Henry Kissinger's or Ahhnorl the Groper. My nice said, 'I don't understand a chit they're saying.

My 3rd grade niece came home speaking English with an accept. Her mother thought she was making fun of others and told her to please stop. The 3rd grade teacher is from Kwait. A wonderful lady but she does not belong in the classroom teaching third graders.

We support immigration, but these teachers and professors get paid much less than American professionals.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. While I find that American students have a tendency to blame

the professor's accent for their own failures, it is indeed true that Americans shy away from graduate degrees in the sciences and engineering. If foreign students were suddenly banned, a lot of American unversity departments of science and engineering would go under.

[trogdor]

28. horsehockey!

Lectures are meant to clarify and enhance what you're studying. You are supposed to be able to ask professors questions and get reasonable answers that facilitate learning. Having to cut through an accent as thick as concrete hinders learning - learning for which YOU pay through the nose. It is NOT unreasonable to expect a college professor to be proficient in the language in primary use at the university in which they teach.

If I went to Paris, Berlin, or New Delhi as a student, I would be expected to have a sufficient comprehension of the language primarily in use there as a condition of my being allowed to study there. Why, then, is this not the case with foreign professors we hire to teach in the United States?

I tell you what; if my son came home complaining about one of the teachers in his high school being incomprehensible, I would be amongt the first to raise holy hell at the district office. I pay taxes - lots of them - and I expect my school to be effective. THEN, after we've provided the best possible environment for learning, we can deal with the shortcomings of the students, not before.

[solinvictus]

58. Accent

If a foreigner is hired to teach, they should have a working compreshension of the native language. Period. I had a Chinese computer science instructor who spoke little English and the class was difficult as a consequence.

[TheMiddleRoad]

60. Well

You'll find a lot of foreign students have been subsidized. That is, they don't have financial burdens to pay off. If American students had subsidized education, you might find a LOT more of them sticking around for grad school.

Beyond this, there is a lot of merit to someone going into the workforce and then returning for grad school. It gives someone a practical perspective to what they are teaching.

[baldguy]

9. This is not a new problem.

My Calc TA in college in 1983 was from China. Could not speak word one of English. She just walked into the class and started writting equations on the board.

[no_arbusto]

13. Is there a word in Klingon for unintentional irony?

Ah yes, Gardachk!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. Remember Michael Moore's The Big One?

He interviewed Phil Knight of Nike and asked him why he had his shoes made overseas.

"Americans don't want to make shoes," Knight said.

"Not for two dollars a day," was Moore's comment.

[BiggJawn]

11. DING! DING! DING!!! We have a WINNER!!!

Damn right Americans don't wanna make shoes for $2 a day. Nor can they afford to make 501's for $7 a week, or Fannie Maes for 12 cents a box, either.

That is how i reply to people like my GF's sister who says "Gawd-dam Messicans are coming up here, living 25 in a house and STEALING OUR JOBS!!!"

Oh? Been cut out of a few $4-an-hour jobs swabbing toilets or shovelling guts or changing stained sheets at the No-Tell Sex?(uh, I mean Six)

Why are the instructions behind the counter at Burger King bi-lingual? Because the kids of middle-class Murkans who get SUV's for high school graduation presents are "TOO GOOD" to flip burgers. Even when the burger places were offering $10 an hour for closers (I almost quit my TV job because Mckey-Dee's was offering $1.50 more than TV was paying)no white kids applied.

I don't wanna hear how immigrants are taking all out "Good" jobs...

And TA's can be very hard to understand when they speak.

[apsuman]

14. but the flip side of that is...

If you wanted to make levi's in this country the labor cost of the product would be so high that instead of costing say $30 a pair they would cost $45 a pair. Now, everyone in the martket place is going to look at the the lee's for $32 and the levi's for $45 and will vote with their dollars accordingly.

It's not that the companys won'r hire americans, it's just that the cost of doing so out prices their product in the marketplace.

[BiggJawn]

18. That's bullcrap.

Yeah, what red-blooded cheap-assed American would NOT want to buy $20 jeans instead of $45 ones? Unless the $45 ones Say "Chic" or "Gloria".

The problem is that in order to make those jeans for $20, they have to pay the help SUCH a low wage that the workers can't even afford to buy their own products. And thus they move off-shore. Not to Mexico, Because Mexican workers are starting to demand enough money to live on, too.

There is a serious problem here, And it's NOT that American workers "Want too much money". I'm sure John Lewis and Walter Reuther heard the same damn complaint from Capital when they formed the UMW and UAW so many years ago. I think it's that American CEO's and investors want too much money. Why is it the fault of the Worker that they can't live in this society for what Capital wants to pay them?

If I'm making 80 kilobucks a year, I'm gonna be less traumatized by having to pay $45 for a pair of jeans than I will be making $39 kilobucks. and a guy who makes 80 Megabucks a year doesn't even KNOW how much his pants cost. He has "personal assistants" that do all that for him.

[are_we_united_yet]

64. "I think it's that American CEO's and investors want too much money"

That is the nugget.

[apsuman]

71. i am not disagreeing with you...

But, how much is too much and who gets to decide?

[alarimer]

26. then

Why do NIKE shoes cost upwards of $150, if the are made with labor that costs $2/day? Please explain. Somebody is obviously making obscene profits somewhere.

[trogdor]

29. New Balance shoes are made in the USA.

My pair cost about $60. They must be printing money if they can't make it hiring Americans.

[OneTwentyoNine]

30. The exact same question I've asked over and over....

Does anyone in their right mind think the price of a pair of Levi's will drop one GD penny? Oh FUCK no they won't,but the CEO and the board can replace that old worn out Gulfstream with a brand fucking new one for about 20 million.

How interesting in the paper yesterday that why..GASP the CORPORATE offices of Levi's is to remain in the US. What a shocker....


David

[OneTwentyoNine]

31. Not true,American made jeans are at Target...

Damn things sell for about 14-15 per pair. Are they cheap tissue paper denim?? Not hardly,I put their quality at or above Wranglers that are made in China or somewhere else around the globe.

We have THICK towels in our baths that are made by Stevens Co. right here in the USA. Its bullshit to think that prices have to be off the scale just because their made in the US. Whats off the GD scale is what the CEO and other top brass get paid in wages,perks,benifits,stock options etc etc...


David

[rhino47]

56. I agree with David

The price for buying american so not that much more.I try to buy american.Its getting harder and harder.Even L L Bean now is selling imported goods.If anyone knows of any more brands of clothing shoes or housewares made in usa let me know please.

[doc03]

32. Race to the bottom!

[philosophie_en_rose]

57. but we would need less if the products were better.

If people were paid more in the U.S., if products were better made, then people would be able to afford a lesser amount of more expensive, but sturdier things. It works out in the end.

If workers werw better paid, then they could afford the difference between $12 POS jeans at Sprawlmart and an American-made brand. It's not a bargain if you have to buy more than one.

[TheMiddleRoad]

62. Bull shit!!!!!

A good worker can crank out a LOT of Jeans in an hour. Studies of the garment industry have found that the cost of the workers have VERY little to do with the ultimate cost of the garment.

The actual cost difference can be as little as a quarter per unit. Well a quarter isn't a lot, but it represents a LOT of money when multiplied by 2 million units.

It's also easier to deal with foreign work forces since those folks are already treated like shit and have very little if any options.

The truth is that big business does what big business has ALWAYS done. They cut costs and pocket the difference. They rarely lower prices.

Finally, Levi's marketplace woes have little to do with the location of their labor source. Levi's just haven't stayed current with fashion and younger people aren't buying.

[TheMiddleRoad]

61. It's the wages stupid.

high school graduation presents are "TOO GOOD" to flip burgers. Even when the burger places were offering $10 an hour for closers (I almost quit my TV job because Mckey-Dee's was offering $1.50 more than TV was paying)no white kids applied.

Honestly thats by far the MOST ignorant thing I've seen written on this board.

Kids who get SUVs for graduation are from VERY affluent families. This is a problem where CEOs live. They have to cart in the barrio kids because the rich kids get subsidies from their parents.

BTW, when I (white guy) was a teen I flipped burgers and poured Ice Cream to earn college money. I earned little more than the minimum wage.

When it comes to service level jobs like custodians and aupair's, these people provide a valuable service and deserve living wages. The argument that people don't want certain jobs is horse shit.

One of the crappiest dirtiest job in the world is sanitation. Yet there is a waiting list to go into sanitation. Why???? Because they have a VERY strong union and make excellent wages.

Now there ARE a lot of good jobs in this nation being taken by non-immigrant foreigners. Corporations tricked congress into H-1B and LZ-1 legislation allowing foreigners to come to America and lower wages. They are also causing havoc on the treasury because a LOT of high-tech workers are now drawing unemployment. If they sent all the unnecessary foreigners home, there would be no high tech workers unemployed.

[Mel]

7. You got it!

Democrats need to say okay Bush* you want this deal for immigrants then you raise the minimum wage, we make it a living wage for ALL!
Another thing the states that are so called 'right to work' that's bunk we do away with that too!

If he's going to ask for this then we hit him in the congress with both barrels. We don't control the Senate or the House but with as many Republicans that are against this we can stand up to him on the legislative end. Democrats need, better stand up to this and your right taxpayers are paying into this corporate welfare. I for one am sick of the greedy corporations!

Face it Bush* isn't for immigrants, illegal immigrants, or the working person he's for the corporation he's a cheap labor charge it up on our cards republican!

If I was an illegal there's no way I would trust this plan.
Bush* says one thing and does another {can we say, cough 'Clear Skies'} I'm sure you see where I'm going with this there's more than a dozen examples.

I say, 'duck and cover illegal immigrants'

[alcuno]

8. I could see that clip in a terrific campaign ad for the Democrat.

Play the clip and then ask about the millions of unemployed Americans and the 3 million who have lost their jobs since his "selection."

[lovedems]

10. It appears to me that instead of making a company outsource

he is going to garauntee them cheap labor here at home. I was running errands earlier this evening and I came across a pair of Levi's. Since I heard that Levi's outsourced it's last factory today, so I checked out the price. No price savings to consumers now that labor is cheaper, just more profit to the company. Same thing with Nike, still expensive as hell.

I am so sick of this.

[apsuman]

12. as I put on my asbestos suit...

Ok, here goes.

If all jobs paid a minimum wage that provided every thing you mentioned, then nothing would be affordable. Let's take an example of a person working at McDonald's.

Let's say that the minimum wage were to jump to 12/hour tomorrow. All of a sudden two things would happen. The cost of a hamberger would go from $1 to $5 and half of the staff of every micky dees would be fired and replaced with machines. Now, everone that was making say $20/hour can not afford to eat at McD, let alone anywhere else higher up the food chain. People who make things and services work exceptionally hard to lower costs. They do this through increased productivity. Manufacutirng jobs peaked in this country in 1979 but the manufacturing base continues to expand. Paul Bunyun is being replaced with the steam powered saw.

As soon as you have a minimum wage that goes up so does the cost of EVERYTHING. the man who was making 20/hour before the jump in the minimum wage above, now has to make 32/hour to keep his same lifestyle.

My FIL just had to lay off 14 people because the cost of his product is artifically inflated by all the costs of having a person work for a company. Payroll taxes, benefits, etc. make him price out his product higher than the imports and some domestic competition.

And finally, minimum wages are job killers. The Secretary of Labor has to set the minimum wage for all people that bid on certain gubment contracts, that wage last time I heard it was something like $15/hour. Now that does sound nice, but think about these things. First there is the added cost of benefits, and taxes that are directly tied to that wage. Second, as a worker you MUST be worth more to your employer than you cost him/her or your job will be eliminated. Third, if you were a semi skilled person, let's say you have some carpentry skills and you are worth $12/hour right now. Well the minimum wage of $15/hour effectively means that nobody will hire you.

In short, minimum wages, and this idea of a living wage, are job killers.

[greendog]

16. McDonald's workers wouldn't be replaced by machines...

...their valuable real-estate would be put to a better use. The only reason any human being tries to choke that shit down is that it's priced artificially low.

If wages were higher we'd find more intelligent and useful things to do with peoples time.

[mopinko]

17. ok, well it's late, but i gotta feeling we'll still be talking about this

tomorrow. so i will google up some FACTS AND NUMBERS for ya then. but they are better than asbestos. but just a little bite here, and some more opinion.- from jim hightower's "thieves in high places"
"here's the wage cost of a t-shirt that you might by at wal-mart, or talbot's or whatever-
asia $.01
latin america $.04
los angeles sweatshop $.16
us minimum $.21"
ooooh, big jump in the price of production, eh? priced me right out of that t-shirt.
will paying a living wage raise prices? yes it will. will it cause the cost of my hamburger to jump from a $1 to $5? yea, in about 50 years.
unchecked inflation caused a lot of damage back in the 80's. st ronnie used cheap imports to beat down inflation. but stagnation is a bad thing, too. and deflation causes real economic havoc.
back in the good ole 50's, when the unions were ragin', wages went up. and took the standard of living up up up. the economy is not a skinny line on a graph, it is a massive, complex organism, and everyting has to keep moving around, or it dies.
but the fact is that it is the corporate greed heads that benefit from substandard wages. and the tax payers, as well as other sectors of the economy, that are squeezed.
AND THE TAX PAYERS END UP HOLDING THE BAG! not just in food stamps and rent vouchers. how much do people with no health insurance cost the tax payers? we pay for them in the end, when they end up in the emergency room, seriously ill, from easily treated diseases. what are the effects on the economy when a productive worker, with a happy family, has to file for bankrupcy, looses their possesions, and is unable to buy a home, because they got sick and their low wage job had no health benefits?

this old cannard about a minimum wage causing job loss is trotted out every time the subject comes up. i am pretty sure that this is 100% republican bull crap. i know the number are out there. maybe some oen knows where to find them. but the economy is NOT A ZERO SUM GAME. if i pay a couple more pennies for my hamburger (and you know you picked those number out of your ass- they are wildly out of proportion) those pennies will come around again.
if your theories are correct, they ought to be doing really well in vietnam about now, huh?

[apsuman]

19. cost of labor

I will have more time later and come back to this until then a few things.

First, the cost of labor includes not just the wages, but the taxes and the benefits as well. Right now, Godfather's pizza pays a giy to do among other things, shred their cheese for the pizza. Now, if the cost of his labor rises, goadfather's can save money by buying a machine to shred cheese, or buy it preshredded, again probably by a machine. So the rising cost of labor pushes employers that wish to remain competitive toward automoation.

Second, if the guy at McD were to start making $12/hour tomorrow, lets assume that the prices would not go up (I disagree, but more of that later). Now everybody is in a market where there is more dollars chasing the goods. The result is that the cost of everything would go up, simply because the low end earners have more disposable income. So I would have to pay more for a ticket to the movies, and the popcorn, and the hamburger before or after because the McD workers and their peers now have more disposable income. Now, in the marketplace, entrepenuers would see an opportunity (hey! there's more demand!) so they make more supply. Prices would come back down, but not down to their pre $12/hour level. So, the price of going to the movies in my area would start at $7, go up to say $13, then come back down to $9 with the added competition. If the market could support an additional movie theater at $7 it would have it right now. So, the result is that the movie tickets, and everything else, would cost more. The other result is that the guy that was making near minimum wages finds that he still has the purchasing power as if he were making minimum wages.

[DebJ]

35. real labor cost increases are in the CEO's pockets!!! But hey lets blame

people who can't afford to eat, not the people choosing their next personal jet.

[PeeWeeTheMadman]

21. But why should everyone work?

In Norway we have an effective minimum wage of $12.5, and we still have the same work participation rate as the US. It does cause unemployment, but the rest is just put on welfare.

Your arguments is the cause of my being an opponent of "work fetishism", because the idea that everyone should work is being used as an excuse to create a class of "working poor".

Also, if the wages of other doesn`t jump as much at the hike in the minimum wage, those who earn minimum wage will get better purchasing power.

[eablair3]

15. the overriding principle at work is

the overriding principle is to increase the amount of workers thereby driving the price of labor down.

It's been that way throughout history. This guest worker program is no different. That's all NAFTA and the other free trade type agreements do. They allow businesses to braoden the supply of labor. If they can use foreign workers here, or overseas, it just drives to down wages here.

In history, business used to play one state off against another to find the most favorable state with laws protecting investment, business and corporations. The corps started each state on their way to trying to low ball other states. The corps play one city of local ageny off against another to see how much of a tax break they can get and so forth. With "globalization" they are just doing the same thing, except they play one country off against another and laborers in one country undercut another country's laborers.

The guest worker program is the same thing. Increase the supply of labor and the cost to business goes down and stays down.

It's BS that they can't find any workers here who will take the jobs. If the supply of labor was not artificially decreased by foreign workers, they'd have to pay more and more workers would take those jobs.

[Deja Q]

20. Americans only want good paying jobs that can support themselves and their

families.

If a janitor got paid $60k per year, you can bet your sweet bippy that everybody would want to join up.

But janitors are treated like the filth they have to clean up. x(

Meanwhile, CEO pay skyrockets by leaps and bounds and janitor pay is as stagnant as cesspool water.

And if you want to end the anti-immigrant debate, for corporations to pay the same wages to ANY WORKER in ANY PART of the world. That'll end the problem there and then.

[Jen]

22. Jobs don't pay enough!

People would work those dirty jobs if they got paid enough.

[apsuman]

24. exactly!

People would work those jobs if they got paid enough.

But it takes a small skillset to perform the job of a janitor.

Small skillset = small wages.

CEO pay not withstanding, people generally get paid what their skills are worth, perhaps modified by relative risk and location.

[DebJ]

36. "CEO pay not withstanding" is not an acceptable phrase. How much

would workers make if the 1000% plus increases in CEO compensation were reduced to, lets be generous and give them a break even with inflation pay increase instead of a below, losing wage, how much more could workers be paid?

[apsuman]

38. none

The answer is none.

If the CEO pay were completely eliminated, the marketplace would not increase the pay of janitors, or database programmers, or doctors. Wages are not in one big pile and the company doles it out. Wages, real wages are set by the market. My previous statement stands, the lower skilled you are the less you are able to command as wages for your labor.

The more skilled you are the more you are able to command for your wages.

[Touchdown]

41. And there lies another fallacy.

"let the market decide"...When Americans don't want to clean toilets, flip burgers, or pick lettuce for what the business's want to pay, then the "market" says that the pay for these jobs are too low, and they should raise the pay until they get people in the door. In these, and many other instances though, the businesses circumvent the "supply side market rules" by violating the law and hiring illegal aliens willing to work for what these fat-cats want to pay, and not a dime more.

Wages cannot be set by the market unless everybody in the market is above board with their ethics, and are not engaged in manipulation of these "market rules" by engaging in criminal activity. Otherwise the "free market" theory fails, and fails the society it's supposed to serve.

[apsuman]

44. Illegals are illegal.

Business that hire them should be punished. Really punished.

Illegal workers should be deported.

I am for immigration, legal immigration.

You are correct that the availability to hire illegal workers does lower wages. But, if they are in the market, then they are putting pressure (downwardly so) on wages.

[Touchdown]

47. Thank you for making my point.

That this "Fair market principles" and "let the market decide" is seriously flawed public policy. After all, if there are greedy humans that abuse, and cheat the rules, then this "market" can't be left to it's own devices. Regulation...or more specifically, LIVING WAGES, curbs that abuse and destroys this particular illegal activity.

[apsuman]

52. i am not so sure that I made your point.

I merely agreed that illegals depress wages and that some real action should be taken on that front.

I stand by my point. If the minimum wage were increased to $50/hour we would find after a short period of time that the least skilled would be the ones making $50/hour and they would not really be able to afford anything more than they do now.

[Touchdown]

68. I stand by my point.

Your defending the textbook ideology of Laissez Faire economics, and how it "should" work. and just agreed that these pie in the sky theories don't hold up to reality.

Who is advocation a $44.85 increase in the Minimum wage? Who said that? I can't argue with straw men. Come back down to Earth here. And regardless of what your textbook says, none of the increases in minimum wage brought loos of jobs, or out of control inflation, so your textbook is wrong in that too.

[apsuman]

72. I am not defending "how it 'should' work"

I am, however, telling how it does work.

I don't think I have even said if I like it or not, only that is how is it. Illegals depress wages because wages are set by the market. In this labor market, I contend, that rarity at performing a needed skill set is the driving force behind wages.

Illegals should be delt with using real solutions. (I think we agree on this one).

You are the one advocating a "LIVING WAGE", I am not trying to give you a straw man. You tell me how much the living wage should be. I contend, that no matter what level you set for the minimum living wage, the market will adjust and those at the bottom will have no additional buying power.

[Touchdown]

76. And I;m saying that if this is how it DOES work...

Then it needs to be abandoned. Free Market economics' big evangelism is that it must be unfettered, unregulated, free of labor organization, and free of government oversight, for it to "work". It has proven to not be trustworthy, especially when it comes to wages that companies decide on, more often than employees, especially when they have illegals competing for the same jobs. You can't deport them, or prosecute the companies that hire them under "Free Market" economics precicely because it must not be regulated by ANYTHING, including immigration laws.

I'm not making any of this up. I'm following the absolute economic logic of the supply siders, the Randian cultists, the Boortz blowhards, and the Von Mises moonies here.

"I contend, that no matter what level you set for the minimum living wage, the market will adjust and those at the bottom will have no
additional buying power."

Then prove it with actual facts. The real world minimum wage hikes we've had so far have proven the fallacy of that theory. If you have any contrary information, then I'd be happy to entertain it.

[Touchdown]

37. There is no such thing as "unskilled labor".

A waitress has to know how to manage her time and has to develop memory skills beyond most workers, janitors have to know which chemical concoctions cause asphyxiation, and have sytematic routines for cleaning places within their time limits. Nursing home workers have to lift heavy objects of 125-300lbs (people) every hour. Retail workers have to be nice to arrogant fucks who demand service and don't want to pay for it, and they have to know EVERYTHING about the products that their store sells, because those questions will come.

Also. This very argument is about CEO salaries, and keeping them in fat salaries, when none of them could do any of these jobs I just mentioned if their pampered lives depended on it. Stop trying to re-define the terms of the debate as if CEOs don't exist. The very economic arguments you make have everything to do with how much business owners bilk out of their workers and consumers, and have a much bigger impact on the economy that any minimum wage increase. Your strawmen arguments for Godfather's/McDonald's can't be taken seriously without the CEO &cronys equation factored in.

[apsuman]

40. I am not redefining the world without CEOs.

Management costs.

Ben and Jerry's ice cream tried to hire a ceo with a "reasonable" salary. It failed, they had to keep upping the pay to find the kind of people that they wanted.

Lets pretend that you and I make a better widget. Apsuman and Touchdown's Improved Widget. We get a patent. We design the assembly of the product and even start to sell it. We achieve success. But by now my programming skills, and your engineering skills are just not suited for the task for selling our product. So we have to hire, that's right, management. A CEO and his cronys are responsible for developing strategies for branding, marketing, placement, distribution, design, and efficientcy. The CEO does not have to know how to be a janitor, or sell at the retail level, or lift people. They are paid high salaries because the are very few people that can do their job. And if they do not perform, the Board and Shareholders should kick them out.

Even if you could replace a CEO with a monkey and pay him in bananas. The Market sets the wage for the janitor, and the nursing home worker, and the retail clerk. Eliminating the CEO pay does not make the janitor worth more.

[mopinko]

48. you are forgetting that

a lot of the ceo's who are making gigabucks are actually breaking the law, manipulating accounting rules to make them look like they are worth more money than they actually are, and running their companies into the ground. to the great detriment of the american economy as a whole.

and you are not counting into your equation that the rest of us end up holding the bag for worker's who are not paid enough to survive. one way or the other.

[apsuman]

53. depends on what you mean by "a lot"

I am sure there are many like the enron and tyco guys that did some of what you describe. However, even if you are the most ethical and moral CEO ever, your job is a complex one. Not everyone can do that job. Rarity = high wages.

[Touchdown]

69. Wanna bet?

Most CEOs were in the right place, at the right time. They knew influential people, scratched the right backs, payed off the right people, and blew the right dicks. Anything above district management, poilitics play a much more important role than any skill one might have. Rarity (in this instance) does not equal high wages....Cronyism and closed.

You are believing in a lie.

[apsuman]

73. "The harder I worked, the luckier I got. "

The above quotation attributed (mistakenly I believe) to Dave Thomas, founder of Wendy's.

No matter the source, I believe it. I feel sorry for those who don't.

My Brother in law just graduated from MBA school, and has a job all lined up right now.

The Business schools he applied to were all meritocracies. So, hard work got him to business school, and through business school. Hard work and his new (rare) skill set are highly prized by his new employer. At 32, he might be too old to actually be considered a CEO candidate, but I know him, he is going to climb that corporate ladder the same way he climbed all the others, through hard work.

[Touchdown]

75. One man succeeds while a billion don't

Yeah, sounds like the way things should be. Let's keep the social darwinism policies, because they DO work.:eyes:

I wonder what "business practices" Dave Thomas has done that he's NOT telling us.

[cryofan]

39. ummm....low skillset == low wages? Not really.......

The law of supply and demand rules!

If 98% of all the people in America partially lost the use of their muscles such that they could not do manual labor, and the border were sealed, how much do you think the going wage for gardners and painters and carpenters and trashpickers would be? Take a wild guess! Did it suddenly take a lot of skill to do manual labor? NO! The supply was sharply reduced while the demand remained the same.

The reason high skilled jobs generally pay more is because it is hard to get the skills: takes time, energy, resources, some money, etc. This causes a bottleneck....

[apsuman]

43. your point is well taken

I will take your post and modify my statement slightly.

The ability to perform tasks that belong in a certain skill set determines your relative value in the labor market.

If everyone lost those muscles, then all jobs with high manual labor compoents would have higher wages.

However, I disagree about that bottleneck, sort of. Jobs pay high wages because few people can do the job. It is rarity (that ol supply and demand thing) that drives prices. If there were a job that REQUIRED a person to be 6'10 or taller to do, but required no skills, the high pay commanded by such people the population distribution alone creates the shortage. Now for you THAT might be the bottleneck, in which case we are closer to agreement that it might appear.

[cap]

65. hope that you aren't planning on asking for a pay raise

any time soon! You wouldn't want to contribute to any societal malaise caused by workers making too much.

[apsuman]

70. I want workers to make as much as they can

I keep making (or at least try to keep making) myself more valuable to my employer for the sole purpose of making more money.

[Deja Q]

34. I said that 36 minutes prior to you!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1004969&mesg_id=1005988&page=

:cry:

[Nikia]

23. We have relatively high unemployment

I suppose that in some areas there may be a shortage of people wanting to take low wage jobs. In most markets raising the wage at a fast food place from minimum wage to $7 or $8 is enough to attract workers who may have been out of work for a while. Although such jobs are more labor cost dependent than the manufacture of high priced items like cars, demand for fast food at peak times tends to be high and the company needs the workers to fill that demand and will lose money if they are not able to serve a customer within 2 minutes of ordering during a lunch rush. They may or may not raise the price a little, but people will come there regardless.
I do see the problem of raising wages if it means that prices will go up. The price we pay for low prices is low wages for someone. I think that relative income inequality is as much of a problem though. As someone pointed out, a person making less will be more affected by a rise in the price of jeans. A person making a lot of money will buy the jeans regardless (within reason, of course). If you have worked in any restuarant or low to midpriced retail establishment, you can observe the difference. Some people are concerned about pennies of price difference while to others money is of no concern. While some difference has to do with attitudes about money, most of the difference has to do with income. For relative buying power, we would be much better off if everyone made the same amount of money. The bigger the difference in income, the more likely that people at the lowest end will not have any disposable income and people in the middle will be worrying about pennies (or a few dollars for higher priced items).

[alarimer]

27. living wage

The problem is that the minimum wage is not a living wage. A person can't actually live on $8/hour. I know, I've tried it and it sucks. I am single so it was in some sense easier for me but it was living hand to mouth. That person who keeps talking about the minimum wage causing employers to cut jobs needs to actually work (and live on) one of these shitty jobs. Or read "Nickel and Dimed". The price of everything (especially housing) is so high that a in a lot of jobs (like Walmart) the person can't even make enough to live on. And this immigration bill is only going to make things worse for American workers. Meanwhile, corporations like Walmart make OBSCENE profits for a few. Corporations move their headquarters offshore so they don't have to pay taxes yet still expect the benefits of being in the US. Corporations are EVIL.

[Good Fences]

25. top 10

Top Ten Worst Jobs


10. Texas electric-chair tester

9. Hooker in Amish country

8. Anne Heche's pharmacist

7. Male cheerleader for Rikers Island basketball team

6. "Survivor" cast member agents about two weeks from now

5. U.S. Open usher -- Crazy, over-aggresive father section

4. Sunblock boy, senior citizens' nude beach

3. Personal assistant to Siegfried/Personal assistant to Roy (tie)

2. Public relations spokesperson, Firestone Tires

1. David Letterman's barber

[randr]

42. Jobs american's can't afford is more like it!

[arewethereyet]

59. then how can illegal aliens afford them ?

I think you might more correctly say that they are jobs that Americans don't want to afford.

[salin]

63. Indeed - we could go back to when extended families all packed into

a tiny living quarter (as do some illegal aliens)... or we could all go live in the cement room (several men bunk up and share the small room) offered - for a fee - to many migrant farm workers. Or better yet - we can live in the chained in environment we have learned about in too many recent incidents were immigrants were brought into this country illegally (though they had paid, been promised jobs, and thought it was legal) and placed into slave labor sorts of situations - locked in at night, work long days, paid a pittance, and given no chance for escape.

Yep - it is our own fault that we no longer live like that as a rule. Its not the employers - its the lazy workers. Get with the program!

[Sophree]

45. There's something distasteful

and arrogant about the phrase "Jobs Americans don't want." I don't know, maybe I'm being overly sensitive. :shrug:

[mopinko]

49. i agree

maybe i should have put it in quotes, cuz that is what chimpy called it, not me.

[Sophree]

50. totally

I didn't mean it in reference to your use of it- I got a sense of your view from your post. It's more my reaction to the many times I've heard this phrase recently- on the radio, etc.

[mopinko]

46. the impact of minimum wage increase

well, as i promised last night, i have done some googling on this issue, and can tell you absolutely definitively, that NOBODY KNOWS!! and, to me, this means that there is certainly no huge negative impact, or we WOULD know.
this is a good link for gobbledy gook from the chicago fed.

http://ideas.repec.org/p/fip/fedhma/wp-97-3.html

>>
Section II briefly describes the price implications of minimum wage hikes, including the predicted elasticity that would be consistent with full price shifting. ...... The results suggest that restaurant prices rise roughly one-for-one with increases in the wage bill that result from minimum wage legislation. Furthermore, the price responses are concentrated in the quarter

Evidence on this proposition is exemplified
by the contentious literature on employment effects of minimum wage increases. This debate seems to revolve around whether there is a small effect (Neumark and Wascher 1992) or no effect (Card and Krueger 1995) of minimum wage increases on low wage employment.

here in chicago, the safeway grocery chain has been in serious trouble. one of the reason is that they are a union shop, with good benefits, competing with sam's clubs and k-marts that keep their costs down by paying next to nothing. the taxpayers are making up the difference here, with a county health system, food stamps, rent vouchers, etc, etc. a living wage law, and single payer health care would level the playing field. THE RACE TO THE BOTTOM BENEFITS NO ONE. not even the fat cats who get the short term goodies. they crash in the end, in an unsustainable system.

so, i think the big thing they are NOT looking at, is the impact on the taxpayers, and the financial wellbeing of this country. i guess it is the ultimate proof (to me) that the rethugs are firmly behind the big money donors that they do not take the easy route to goosing the economy, including taxes, by increasing the minimum wage when times are tough. increases in the minimum wage, without a doubt, cause a ripple of increases in other low wage workers. this bumps many people out of government assistance, and into self sufficiency. when you add this into even just the economic equation, i think the argument for a living wage is clear. if you are the kind of person who can examine the impact on the human equation, you probably don't even need this gobbeldy gook, you already know it is right. go dk.

[Sophree]

51. And the positive impact in the economy

That a living wage has in terms of people actually having money in their pockets, which is immediately pumped back into the economy.

[arewethereyet]

54. well its obvious that the illegals can live on it

but Americans won't or there would be no illegal aliens.

Everyone would like to make a lot of money but poor descisions regarding education and lax effort don't support this.

[lotteandollie]

55. Agreed

[SoCalDem]

66. The only jobs that Americans don't want to do...are.....

jobs that do not pay enough for them to live on..You can bet your last penny, that if dish washing , fruit picking, car washing, babysitting paid $10 or more an hour, you would have a steady stream of people willing to do that work..

It's rather insulting to offer a $15,000.00 a year job to someone who has finished college and is responsible for 30-40K worth of student loans..

People tend to be hopelessly optimistic, and when offered a crummy job, they will often turn it down, in hopes that they will find a better one.. Of course hunger and bill collectors often make the ultimate decision for them, and often they must settle for a job that is beneath their skills, and bereft of any benefits, so of course, they will continue to look while they toil at their "menial" job..

The immigrants who often work this type of job, are usually scared of being "outed" , so they tend to stay put.. People who have options (or think they do) will move on to more promising jobs, if they can..

In most cases it's not the JOB that's menial...it's the pay for that job..

In the case of the dish washer...that's a pretty important job, if you think about it.. Without a conscientious dish washer, people would be getting sick from the unsanitary dishes..

Childcare is also pretty important.. Would you want your child cared for by someone who did not care enough to watch your child carefully? Is that child's wellbeing not worth higher pay??

Our tiered class structure attaches value to a person depending on how much they make...not what they do..

Are CEOs really more valuable human beings than say... a teacher?? They must be because they are paid so much.. We give lip-service to the teaching profession and brag about how we value education, but we never seem to miss an opportunity to undercut education..

We need to put our money where our mouth is..

[ContinentalOp]

67. Raising the minimum wage doesn't lead to inflation.

It's a typical conservative free-market argument that a raise in the minimum wage will cause inflation. The fact is if the minimum wage was raised to $12 tomorrow and McDonalds charged $5 for their hamburgers they would quickly go out of business as the smart ceo over at BK would keep prices steady, cut costs elsewhere or weather temporary losses and grab all of McDonalds' market share. It's called competition.

Not to mention that throughout US history a raise in the minimum wage has typically been followed by a period of deflation.

[lotteandollie]

74. I'm not sure I follow the logic

on how raising wages causes deflation.

I can tell you this. The state of Washington has a minimum wage which is higher than Federal Minimum Wage. They have a higher unemployment rate than the rest of the country. I would argue that it is a contributing factor in the unemployment. Fewer people working means fewer goods and services being produced. When there are fewer goods and services and fixed dollars, prices will rise.