"Just War" is really "Bait and Switch"

[gulliver]

It's hard to argue that the Iraq war was not a "just war," but I think people who say that are quibbling. After all, how just the war was still remains to be seen. If we have rid the Iraqis of Hussein only to embroil them in an anarchic breeding ground for terrorists and civil war, then it seems to me that the war will have become very unjust. Innocent Iraqis could be made to suffer for Saddam's crimes.

But it is beside the point anyway. We were not sold a just war. We were sold a necessary war based on vital U.S. interests. Looking at what we got, it is definitely not what we were sold and it was not worth what we paid (and are continuing to pay) for it. If anything, Iraq is now more dangerous to the U.S. than before we went in, IMO.

I think we need to start loudly asking what the upside of this thing is. Two of Wolfowitz's "trifecta of rationales" are essentially gone: that Saddam supported Al Qaeda and had tons of ready-to-use WMD. The third leg, the one Wolfowitz has been balancing precariously on, is the liberation of a suffering people from a brutal regime. That's mighty thin gruel, especially when we don't know we really did them any good yet. And we aren't talking about doing it in Liberia.

U.S. foreign policy should be about U.S. vital interests. I don't see how the Republicans can hold a claim to foreign policy superiority when they seem to be failing in such a basic way. Was attacking Iraq and turning it unstable for the foreseeable future consistent with U.S. vital interests? We were bait-and-switched.

[fsbooks]

1. Just War? sorry, no way.

It is arguably possible to state that Gulf War I was "just" -- at least the world community tended to be behind it. This current war was and is simply an imperialist adventure. While I welcome the defeat of Saddam Hussein, I would argue that it has set back the cause of democracy in Iraq by decades. In a similar vein, while the Iranian fundamentalist revolution reduced freedom in certain ways (although overthrowing a vile dictator), ultimately I believe Iran has the best chance of any middle eastern state to evolve to a "free society" (whatever that means). Barring of course a need to fuel blood fever in time for the 2004 election. Revolution (democracy) must build from within. It cannot be imposed.

[JackSwift]

2. We were told that

Iraq was behind 9/11, which was and still is a blatant and bald faced lie. Nobody paying attention believed that. We were also told that Iraq had WMD, which some of us, including me, believed. The administration had no evidence to support that claim, and plenty to the contrary. They lied to us, and because they claimed that their information was from top secret intelligence sources, some of us (including me) believed them. I did not believe that it was cause for war without UN authorization, which even then would have been questionable. Suffice to say, that Halliburton stock has gone through the roof and the rest of the world is going down the crapper. The US has no international credibility left unless it is accompanied by several aircraft carriers. This will cost our economy trillions.

[Cha]

3. It wasn't "a just war" I don't buy that crap for one second!

WE could have gotten rid of the sadam regime with the UN and the international community behind us! ANd where would the oil in that be, you ask? There wouldn't be any for us ...that's why it wasn't done that way!

Just war? my red, white, and blue :kick:

[whoYaCallinAlib]

4. Only time will tell. There is no way to answer your question today.

The legality of the war aside, the lies leading up to the war aside, and everything else aside except for your question, I don't think anyone can possibly tell you if U.S. interests will be furthered. If Iraq embraces democracy, if capitalism flourishes, if oil supplies increase, then just maybe . . . I repeat, maybe . . . the end result might be good for America. But it sure isn't looking so good right now.

[ewagner]

5. Just to keep my head from spinning

lemme get this straight...

...we went to war because Saddam had WMDs that:
...he could activate in 45 minutes
...were an iminent threat to the US
...he could sneakily give to his good-buddy Osama

oooops....none of that was true.

but Saddam was a bad guy anyway so what the hell, it was a just war...

I want some of what Lieberman is smoking. lol

[drdigi420]

7. Lieberman isnt smart enough

or honest enough to be a pot-head

he's more likely a drunk

[RichM]

6. Several posters in this thread use the phrase "US interests."

Guess what? You're using a phrase invented by the right wing, for the purpose of obfuscating what's REALLY being referred to. There IS no such thing as "US interests." The interests of Bush & his cronies are the same as the interests of Chevron and Halliburton -- but they are not the same as YOUR interests, nor mine.

When a US official starts prattling about "US interests," he means the type that Chevron & Halliburton & BushCo care about. He doesn't remotely mean something that has any value for you or me.

[gulliver]

8. Vital interests.

Well it is pretty clear that the interests of the companies you have been talking about have been well served. They are the only clear winners.

I'm wondering what the U.S. won.

Thought experiment. Suppose what the Bushies said before the war turned out to be true. (Just imagine it, obviously.)

We would right now be the proud saviors of our way of life. Caches of biological weapons would have been uncovered. The Iraqis would be bringing cake and flowers to the soldiers every day. We would have discovered a nuclear weapons program fast approaching success. We would have found Al Qaeda cells and hundreds of informers eager to turn in some of the Al Qaeda terrorists Bush said Saddam supported. Americans would be basking in world glory and admiration.

But that's not where we are at all. This is nothing like what we were sold. We're the proud owners of a ... what?

[sandnsea]

9. Power isn't of value to you????

That's an interesting theory.

I don't support the corporate takeover of the world. But I'm not so stupid as to think power isn't an important US interest. We just need to stop stealing it and causing wars over it and putting people into poverty for it and ruining the environment for it. But I'd still like to have electricity and gasoline.

[Cha]

11. That's not what he meant!

And...oh you can be sure that halliburton and bechtal are making sure we have oil and well maybe not electricity for California!

[BeFree]

10. It's said every day, millions of times

At the end of a pledge:

"Truth And Justice for All"

If you can relate to me how "Truth and Justice" was served, then maybe I can find you a "Just" war. The Iraqi invasion consists of very little truth and even less justice.