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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:17 AM
Original message
Is Al Qaeda Just a Bush Boogeyman?
Is it conceivable that Al Qaeda, as defined by President Bush as the center of a vast and well-organized international terrorist conspiracy, does not exist?

To even raise the question amid all the officially inspired hysteria is heretical, especially in the context of the U.S. media's supine acceptance of administration claims relating to national security. Yet a brilliant new BBC film produced by one of Britain's leading documentary filmmakers systematically challenges this and many other accepted articles of faith in the so-called war on terror.

"The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear," a three-hour historical film by Adam Curtis recently aired by the British Broadcasting Corp., argues coherently that much of what we have been told about the threat of international terrorism "is a fantasy that has been exaggerated and distorted by politicians. It is a dark illusion that has spread unquestioned through governments around the world, the security services and the international media."

Stern stuff, indeed. But consider just a few of the many questions the program poses along the way:

If Osama bin Laden does, in fact, head a vast international terrorist organization with trained operatives in more than 40 countries, as claimed by Bush, why, despite torture of prisoners, has this administration failed to produce hard evidence of it?

How can it be that in Britain since 9/11, 664 people have been detained on suspicion of terrorism but only 17 have been found guilty, most of them with no connection to Islamist groups and none who were proven members of Al Qaeda?

Why have we heard so much frightening talk about "dirty bombs" when experts say it is panic rather than radioactivity that would kill people?

Why did Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claim on "Meet the Press" in 2001 that Al Qaeda controlled massive high-tech cave complexes in Afghanistan, when British and U.S. military forces later found no such thing?

snip

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-sc...
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. No.
That doesn't mean that he doesn't use AQ to his advantage frequently.
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Stockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Fair enough...
But I sincerely hope headlines like these make the American public stop for a minute and reflect over all the bs-quasinews they are being fed.

From my perspective more critical analysis is needed - to hell with "either with us or..." or tinfoil accusations.

I am liking LA Times more and more.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Although I agree with your sentiments re: critical analysis
Life isn't fair most of the times. I think a headline like this (not criticizing YOUR post mind you but the column) leaves the impression that the writer is out of touch with current events (and I'm not talking about Iraq).
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. Awesome to see this in the MSM here in the US.
A very good miniserious done by the BBC pointed the same thing out.

It is called The Power of Nightmares.

Google it if you haven't seen it. It is all over the web.

They make the same case that the LA Times is making basically.

That al Qaeda, while certainly posing some threat, was by no means anywhere near what the * administation made them out to be.

And our reaction has actually somewhat contributed to it's popularity.

In fact a large part of the Muslim world had rejected Bin Laden's message long ago.

Now for every innocent Muslim we kill, it just makes them stronger.

Like I said, it is a good sign that this is even being openly discused in at least one part of the MSM. I will reserve judgemtn for now, but this is in my opinion a very god thing.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Awesome all right. Conspiracy theory goes mainstream.
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 07:46 AM by oblivious
My question is, did the MSM really believe this shit in the first place? Or are Rove and company so weakened that no one's afraid of them any more?

edit: spelling, as usual
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. I am sure many did believe it.
And probably fewer did not, and went along anyway. Faux News for example, is still pushing the Iraq 9/11 connection like it exists.

I consider myself to be pretty up on current events, and I have to admit that after 9/11, I was ready to go after Iraq if there was any connection.

Then again I walked around virtually stunned for months. And I have never heard of PNAC at that point either.

My question is how much of the MSM knows the facts now and STILL continues to spew the party line?

I can certainly forgive ignorance. But spreading the lie after it has been debunked is the true abomination here imo.

And I believe that it has been debunked. * has certainly offered no proof otherwise. Then again I don;t believe a word he says without independent verification.
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neweurope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
5. To me it's always been a bogeyman. The MSM are beginning to
discuss this now - which is good. Unfortunately they are only discussing it AFTER civil rights have been restricted all over the western world. And now - even if it would be proved that Al Quaeda was a Rove invention - they would never go back on it.

-----------

Remember Fallujah!

Bush to The Hague
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kurtyboy Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. Who is
Keyser Sose?
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
6. Adam Curtis makes a strong case...
... for the Bush/Blair administration's exploitation of 9/11 for political purposes.

The neo-conservatives have used lies to inculcate fear in the public for thirty years.

That Osama bin Laden has not yet been found and captured, after three years of war, first in Afghanistan and later in Iraq, is some evidence that the military approach--blasting hell out of countries with strategic oil reserves or necessary pipeline routes--hasn't solved the essential problem of terrorism. In fact, there's evidence that the problem is much worse now because of the Bush administration's strategy.

Funny, though, that it's taken three months for the LA Times to acknowledge "Power of Nightmares," given the questions it poses. It might be that the media would rather accept the lies of the neo-cons, including those of their stooge, George W. Bush, than dig into the story.

The Bushies want neverending war, whether it's necessary or not, and they're determined to scare the hell out of the public to keep that perpetual war going. Without that scare tactic, the public will see them as they are--a bunch of greedy, ideologically-driven assholes using the public for their own purposes.
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complain jane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. ..::: applause :::..
:thumbsup:
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Huckebein the Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. Here's a link to where you can watch "The Power of Nightmares":
http://mysite.verizon.net/res7dhyg/id3.html

-it's there in Real and Divx format. Only Real has all 3 episodes though and the video quality is alright.

If you don't want to use Real platyer, you can use Media Player Classic which plays the Real format. (it looks like windoze media player 6). I use it to listen to Air America after 9 because the Ogg Vorbis stream I use in Winamp doesn't connect after 9 for some reason and I have DSL.

Anyway, you can get Media Player Classic here:

http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Media_Player_Classi...
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complain jane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. thanks
for posting that link. I've got a lot to watch today at work.
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inchhigh Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. Transcript
The Power of Nightmares Part I "Baby it's Cold Outside" at this link. There is also a transcript here if you don't have time to watch:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm

Amazing stuff!
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dmkinsey Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
12. Al Qaeda probably is/was real
But the bush administration certainly knows a good thing when they see it.
They've used Al Qaeda and the specter of terror to drive their agenda.
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jman0 Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
13. "Al Qaeda" was never real
I recall in the early days preceeding the attack on the USS Cole in port at Yemen US officials talking about Al Qaeda and watching Pakistani journalists look perplexed about the word in interviews.
In fact I recall one such journalist trying to explain to his US interviewer that there is no such organization by that name "Al Qaeda", and if they were refering to Osama bin Laden and his followers, then they just use the phraseology "Osama bin Laden's group".

But I doubt that Osama is this masterminded supercrook from Mavel comicbooks the US Administration would have us believe. I believe that the exaltation of this sort of person would prove counterproductive in this context.
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
14. The War Machine needs a focus of evil...often former allies.
It's scary being friends with America when it runs out of villains.

Who's next, Tony Blair?
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adigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
15. Osama bin Laden in the Bronx???
My husband, who is the most grounded person I know, truly believes that the Bushies captured bin Laden and just trot him out to read the scripts they give him every once in a while. Let's be honest - bin Laden's appearance on Oct 30 won Bushie the election, right, so I have to wonder if he's right.
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MHalblaub Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Bush is the best choice for Bin Laden
So why shouldn't he support him.

No need to go to the US to hit Americans.
No need for a big efforts and logistic.
Bush delivers the targets.

When will there be more dead Americans in Iraq then at 9/11?
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Felix Mala Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
16. It;'s so handy have Osama running around lose
You can cut taxes, destroy social security, disassemble environmental protections.
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SittingBull Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. Mark Twain
Sorry for that translation

As next statesman will invent cheap lies, which push over the debt of the attacked nation, and everyone will be lucky over these deceptions, which calm the conscience down. It will study it in detail and will refuse to examine arguments of the other side. Thus it will make sure step for step of the fact that the war is fair and thanks to God for the fact that he can better sleep after this process of grotesque self-deception." Mark Twain - 'Mysterious foreigner, ' 1916, chapter 9



What was reign wihtout a outer enemy to get over intern troubles? How can someone justify the whole military spendings without a real enemy? What was everytimes good for economy?
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SittingBull Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Or take Hermann Goering, Nazi-Hitler
Minister, with a quite thinkable sentence before Nurnberg Tribunal:


18. April 1946: Evening in the prison. Goerings cell:

" ... Now, naturally, the people does't want war", Goering said to shoulder-twitch. "Why should any poor agricultural worker in the war want to risk its life, if the best is, which he can take out with the fact that he returns with sound bones. Naturally, the simple people does not want a war; neither in Russia, nor in England, still in America, and just as little in Germany. That is clear. But there is finally the leaders of a country, that determine the policy, and it is always easy to bring the people to going through whether it concerns now a democracy, a fascist dictatorship to follow in order a parliament or a communist dictatorship... the people can with or without right to vote always brought to follow the instructions of the leaders. That is completely simple. You need nothing more to say as the country was attacked, and to accuse and state the pacifist, their lack of Patriotismus bring the country to danger. This method functions in each country."


Again, excuse my bad babelfish translation, i'll hope I bring it to a form you can understand!
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MHalblaub Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Can you quote your source? nt
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SittingBull Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I hope I did it
whit my other post.

Both need a new enemy. Isn't it a Win-Win Situation, if we probably think, they weren't really enemies???
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SittingBull Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. See also
this new link:

<http://whatreallyhappened.com/goldstein.html >


That's want I want to express...
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SittingBull Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. See also
this new link:

<http://whatreallyhappened.com/goldstein.html >


That's want I want to express...
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SittingBull Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. OBL and El-Quaida
were the products of the US-Hardliner Interest in Afghanistan. To roll back the Sowjets, to beat their troups, to entangle the power of communist in long-during battles. After the war was over, and the sowjets were thrown out of Afghanistan, OBL had no real enemy, too.

So not only the US has interest in a new enemy- OBL has the same.
Interesting: A german resarcher and Book-author named Jrgen Elssser maintains, that OBL and the US have common aims in Bosnia-Herzigovia in the midninetees, and therefore they fought together. OBL officially hates the US since 1990, since the US-Troops were placed in his holy FAhter-Land Saudi-Arabia, and since than every possible terror-attack was allegedly tool place on his command.
But it this was true, why there are a few stories about countries which offeres to deliver OBL to the US- but, very interesting again, none of this offers where accepted.
And- why did OBL in his last video maintains by hisself, that he hates the US since the early 80'ies? Nono, that sounds rotten.

And last but not least: OBL is like the Immanuell Goldstein out of 1984 by George Orwell. He is alive, he is every time there, when he is needed, he can not die.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
20. Bob Dylan talks about the Cold War in his autobiography
If I can paraphrase a section, he says it is one thing to be scared when someone puts a gun to your head, but to be scared all the time of something imaginary, it crushes kids' spirits and steals their dreams

I found that sort of pointed in the current context. We're in a new 'duck and cover' kind of fantasy. It nurtures this seige mentality.
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MHalblaub Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. Bin Laden was promoted by the CIA
This is the conclusion of an article released in December 2001.

http://www.perseus.ch/PDF-Dateien/bracher_11sept.pdf
"Der Europer Jg. 6 / Nr. 2/3 / Dezember/Januar 2001/2002"
Swiss monthly magazine

The author has several points to make:

- Bin Laden was recruited by the CIA for the war against the SU in Afghanistan (Istanbul, 1979).

- Bin Laden used the same Bank (Bank for Credit and Commerce
International) for supporting the Mudjahedin as drug dealers, terrorist or CIA did.

- CIA met Bin Laden even after the assaults of 1998(French source).

- CIA met Bin Laden on Juli, 12 2001 in Dubai(French source).

- US government was obviously not surprised and used 9/11 for prepared actions (Patriot act)

- Media interpretation was very fast (America under attack - international terrorism - Pearl Harbor - declaration of war) around one hour. Just for Usama Bin Laden it takes a bit more time. In this context the author mentioned that Walter Isaacson was appointed Chairman & Chief Executive Officer of the CNN News
Group (July 09, 2001)

- He questions the reaction of Mr. Bush and his staff at the school in Florida. His conclusion was that the event had to be documented. (Question: What would you as chief and your staff do if your chemical plant went up and you are at a meeting?)

- Around 2000 some terrorist of 9/11 were supervised in Germany by FBI.


Sorry, the article is written in German.
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Blower Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
25. Indeed...
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
27. Al-CAIda and the BFEE
A socially dysfunctional, mutually co-enabling couple. One couldn't exist without the other.

And what about those caves? Remember the CIA rendering of the cave systems just before the war? Something out of 1950's Popular Science. My dad used to get that magazine and saved them....I recall similar renditions of German/Japenese bunkers and fortresses. I always thought that was total BS. Never any real pics, though.

<>

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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Reminds me of old Superman comics
Anyone remember the "Fortress of Solitude"?

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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
29. Woah... I can't believe I'm reading this in the MSM
Watch for revenge to by taken by the amin for this.

LA Times will be smeared... just like CBS got its ass handed to it for reveal Abu Ghraib.
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