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America and Fundamental Christianity cannot co-exist for Much Longer

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Jr_Samples Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 08:20 PM
Original message
America and Fundamental Christianity cannot co-exist for Much Longer
One of the most illustrative differences between liberal and conservative thought can be found in the Nature-vs.-Nurture argument.

Nurture:
The conservative position is that nurture shapes the human being. Conservatives will tell you that gays can become straight simply by means of a strong will (and therefore that all gays have become gay through some sort of trauma!). Children behave badly when they haven’t been raised correctly, argues the conservative. “The human being defines himself through his actions; one should strive to righteously carry himself through life, and define his existence through his moral will.”

Now, in order to answer whence all this will comes from – i.e., from anywhere but nature – conservatives top off their pyramid of life with the granddaddy of all nurturing – the Judeo-Christian God. “God” is a nurturing, proactive, supernatural being. Super-natural. Beyond the limits of quaint little nature herself.

Nature: The liberal view of life is that nature plays the dominant role in shaping the human being. Humans play a proactive role in their lives, of course, but through eons of evolution some of us are simply better suited to cope with certain circumstances than others. Genes mold behavior as much as, if not more than, environmental factors.

Although many liberals are atheists, I'd guess more are agnostic in their beliefs. As far as “God” is concerned, the liberal mindset is much more accepting of a Deist (or even Eastern) philosophy. God isn’t some giant, elderly white man sitting in the sky and meddling in our every day affairs. If indeed there is some phenomenon we – from our particularly narrow perspective – might want to label “God,” it most assuredly isn’t the petty character who parts seas so that one people can escape from another, floods the Earth because he’s angry at the world’s “sinners,” or sends people to "hell" because they question the nature of his/her/its existence.

Indeed, to liberals who accept that there is, or might be, a higher form of universal intelligence, “god” is often likened to nature itself. I doubt very seriously you’ll find many pantheists, panentheists, or Buddhists at a GOP rally.
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In light of this distinction between the conservative and liberal mindset, consider the ongoing battle between people who claim that America was founded upon “Christian principles” (or as political correctness would have it, “Judeo-Christian” values), and those who know better. Despite the recent events in Montgomery, Alabama, the issue isn't as simple as a giant slab whereupon a mythology's Ten Commendments are written.

The issue is the nature-vs.-nurture argument.

Conservatism, at its very core, must believe that Nurture is the bedrock of all phenomena. Sure, there are some splinter groups of respectable nurture-over-nature proponents, (ID, or Intelligent Design theorists, for example), but the dominant proponents in today's pro-nurture America are fundamentalist Chritians, a group whose beliefs are further discredited with each passing day - by science and everything else synonymous with progress itself.

We should all be concerned about this issue now, not because some ignorant judge in Alabama is acting like a horse's ass, but because many in the current administration are doing their best to set the stage for some pending Biblical event. Call me alarmist, but considering the dubious role religious differences have played in the rise and fall pf history's greatest nations, I believe this is a very scary reality.

If we get serious about the election in 2004, we'll all play a role in assuring fundamental Christianity will eventually become a sort of neo-mythology. The alternative is the continuance of administrations peppered with completely brainwashed Xtian fundies, who - through sheer stupidity - may destroy our country in a very short time.
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Jr_Samples Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Posted it on Hannity too
Lots of typos, because as most of my "writing" it was done at this website. But I just posted it on Hannity.com

LOL! I wonder if the moderators there will allow it to stay.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Religion and State
Excellent post. Can you believe I was just surfing the channels and
ran across a program at C-Spam- in which there was a panel of Cathoic Leaders from the most conservative organizations in the Catholic Church.(I am a Catholic-Conservative Cathoics would probably call me a Catholic Liberal.)I listened for a while to find out what they were discussing. I was surprised to find they had been contacted by congress to organize a movement along with other Christians(Fundies) to put pressure on the Senate to end the Fillibusters and vote for the Presidents Conservative Judges.
Apparently they bought that mularkey that the Conservatives in the Senate have been spreading. The Young Atty Gen. from Alabama is
being discrimated against because of his Religion. This man is a cathoic with such very strong religiious views that one one would have to wonder if he could separate his strong views on Abortioan and rule fairly as a Supreme Court Justice. I listened to him during his hearing.The Republicans completely twisted this to say the senators in committee will not approve him because he is catholic. Of course, this panel on C-Span is trying to stir up the masses. The Congress calling on these groups is state interfering in Religion but if we do not get on the ball we are going to be taken over and ruled by the Fundies. This is serious folks.

Your post is accurate if anyone would take the time to view some thes
Religious Stations on TV they would be amazed. you might think they are setting up Armageddon.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-02-03 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. funny, the soviets thought a "new soviet man" could be nurtured too
so apparently soviets were conservatives.

haha.....sorry to use "limbaughian" logic.
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Jr_Samples Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Nope - Vladmir Lenin was not "the soviets"... he was one man (obviously)
Check your history, friend. One Soviet shat the very idea to which you refer, while hundreds of millions died because it was such a misconstrued idea.

The "New Soviet Man" was a Lenin idea; he'd predicted from the start that through brutal "rehabilitation" criminals and anti-communists could be "nurtured" into "new Soviet Men." By the time Stalin got ahold of it, the argument had been modified thus: the "New Soviet Man" was a device to free men "from their biological constraints." In other words in a matter of decades the message had become "yes, nature is inevitable, but with drastic actions we can provide a counterbalance to it!"

The whole idea - aside from being only espoused by about .00001% of all Soviets - was an attempt to answer the inevitability of nature by means of punishment ("nurturing").

You bring up a superb point about the last century, though:

-> Communism counterbalanced its naturalisic, anti-religious foundation nature with a program endorsing nurture; and

->Fascism (especially Nazism) counterbalanced its predeterministic, "Godly" righteousness with a program endorsing the murder of a (natural) race of people.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. very well said!
i appreciate the wisdom you passed on to me. thanks!
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Jr_Samples Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Thanks to you
You brought up a superb point.

By the way, how do I make an avatar for my screen name?
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. the Biblical event they truly fear and expect

is Jesus kicking the money changers out of the Temple.

And it's not nice to bash fundies. First of all, the present "Conservative" politicians are all revisionists, not fundamentalists.

Secondly (perhaps it's because perfidious liberals have banished lead paint and so prevented a lot of mental retardation of the young) the fundie denominations are looking at pretty severe membership crashes and schisms fairly soon. In about ten years the pre-WW2 generation dies out as a force, Baby Boomers will be running the show in those churches, and GenXers, who as a group appear to be religiously far more fickle and skeptical and passive, will be staying away in droves. I really don't see how that can end in any way internally other than a series of Boomer-Xer fights, splitting them into politically active reactionary Boomers and politically disengaged moderate Xers.
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Jr_Samples Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Great line!
"Jesus kicking the money changers out of the Temple"

That's hilarious. And I hope you're right.

But it sure seems to me like the Ashcroft types are doing their best to set things up for the second coming of Jesus.
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-03-03 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. All patriarchal belief systems are a reflection of male mass neurosis
America is still bracing itself for more sex abuse scandals in the Catholic church, having conveniently forgotten the issues in Utah, where systematic brainwashing of women and children results in state sponsored incest. The coverup of this kind of slavery has been the subtext of all administrations for the last forty years. The nature/nurture debate only becomes a relevance if you totally discredit all religions and cults for their perpetuation and denial of sex crimes. God the father/the son/the holy ghost etc is the whitewash of imperialism.
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