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Better Dead Than Red - Dan Savage

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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:14 PM
Original message
Better Dead Than Red - Dan Savage
http://www.portlandmercury.com/2004-11-11/feature.html


It's time to state something that we've felt for a long time but have been too polite to say out loud: Liberals, progressives, and Democrats do not live in a country that stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific, from Canada to Mexico. We live on a chain of islands. We are citizens of the Urban Archipelago, the United Cities of America. We live on islands of sanity, liberalism, and compassion--New York City, Chicago, Philadelphia, Portland, Seattle, St. Louis, Minneapolis, San Francisco, and on and on. And we live on islands in red states, too--a fact obscured by that state-by-state map. Denver and Boulder are our islands in Colorado; Las Vegas is our island in Nevada; Miami and Fort Lauderdale are our islands in Florida. Citizens of the Urban Archipelago reject heartland "values" like xenophobia, sexism, racism, and homophobia, as well as the more intolerant strains of Christianity that have taken root in this country. And we are the real Americans. They--rural, red-state voters, the denizens of the exurbs--are not real Americans. They are rubes, fools, and hate-mongers.

Never mind civil unions, red Virginia prohibits any contracts between same-sex couples. And Florida bans gays and lesbians from adopting children. Compassionate? Texas allows the death penalty to apply to teenaged criminals and mentally retarded criminals. Dumb? The Sierra Club has reported that Arkansas, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Alabama, and Tennessee squander over half of their federal transportation money on building new roads rather than public transit.


<snip>

And when you look for ways to revive your failing towns and dying rural counties, don't even think about tourism. Who wants to go to small-town America now? You people scare us. We'll island-hop from now on, thank you, spending our time and our money in blue cities. You can starve out there in red America for all we care. Hell, we already give you enough money anyway, you big government leeches. Although you like to complain about "tax-and-spend liberals," guess where that big-government money gets spent: North Dakota, New Mexico, Mississippi, Alaska, West Virginia, Montana, Alabama, South Dakota, Arkansas. These red states top the list of federal spending per dollar of federal taxes paid. And who's paying the most? That's right, you government-handout parasites: blue states. New Jersey, Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts, California, New York, Minnesota. We pay the most and receive the least.

You've made your choice, red America, and we urban Americans are going to make a different choice. We are going to make Portland--and New York, Chicago, and the rest--a great place to live, a progressive place. To borrow Reagan's phrase again, we will make each of our cities--each and every one--a shining city on a hill. You can have your shitholes.


Discuss

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Stupid, for reasons which have been discussed over and over.
Basically, the only practical purpose of this strain of argument is to pave the way for some sort of secessionist or worse, eliminationist rhetoric. Or nurse one's issues.
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I have no quarrel with secessionist rhetoric.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. They'll keep their nukes, you know.
I think we'll be worse off?
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Not to mention
that most of the food supply comes from the red states.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. California
is pretty blue, so I hear, and they are one of the top agricultural states in the Union.

Food may mostly come from the red states but is grown there by three or four multinational agribusinesses. They can pull their patented Monsanto-approved plants out of the ground any time they want to.
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Oh yes
California, the land of "happy cows". :)
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. And happy geese
;-)

To speak to the food issue for a moment: maybe that is a place where there can be unity. Obesity is a problem that does cross the red/blue divide, mostly (IMO) due to prepackaged foods. Maybe a new kind of Victory Garden project can be a uniter...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
72. Aw, hell I didn't even get to see it
That's what I get for workin' all day...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. If California seceded
It would have thr third largest economy in the world. In fact, If all of the states that voted for Kerry were to secede, they would still have the worlds largest economy just suprassing the E.E.C. whilew the Red States would be at the economic levels of some of the Ex Warsaw Pact nations as they are doing since the fall of Communism . They might not be third world status, but they certainly would be third rate economies, similar to the coalition of the co-erced, requioreing foreign aifd to maintain themselves.

That is actually a good way to think of the red states. They are essentually similar to those nations that the U.S. provides foreign aid to becasue they on their own, they are not able to maintain the economic status and governmental stability that their neighbors have, and must be shored up by the other half of the country that actually is the engine of growth and progess for the entire economy.
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. And the real bitch of it is
where I live, Huntsville AL, is one of the highest educated areas in the country.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Yup...
And a lot of it gets paid for by out of state money...Alabam is one of those states that gets much more than it shells tou in federal taxes, and thus it can keep its local taxes low. Of course, the fact that a large number of government workers work there, and thus these areas in states tend to benefit even more from the money that cones down from the federal government thna other areas of the state,while the states have few, if any social programs for the poor. Government Workers want theiir kids educated well. Srt of like the district of Columbia, which recieves the largest amount of tax dollars per population, yet little of this money goes to help the people livingthere directly. A lot of it goes to building high walls on the interstates to prevent outsiders from seeing the poverty that exists in the outskirts of the nationa capital.

Alabama is in the top ten of states that receive more than they pay out in federal taxes. For every dollar they pay to the federal government,they get back a dollar and sixty one cents. This enables the state to have extremely low state and local taxes. Any difference in order to create better school doistricts can be raised by increasing property taxes at a much lower rate than a state like New Jersey, which only recieves 61 cents for every dollar paid out. That dollar per person has a very large effect on the states ability to fund programs by minimizinfg the amounts they use on the fedeal programs the money was originally allocated for, and shifting it over o programs that other states must raise local taxes in order to provide.

Huntsville, with its larger than average educated population due to the location of a large part of NASA, nad other federal government departments, may have a more highly educated population than the rest of the state due to the effects of this skewing of the education of the population in this area alone. Figures on the entire state do not fware this well and the average I.Q. in Alabama indicated this. The average I.Q. in Alabama falls in the lowest 20 percent in the nation, with the IQ average being 90.

THis indicates that ion some areas of Alabama, people are willing to pay slightly more property taxes thant the rest of the state, But if the state only received the same percentage of money from the federal government per citizen as it paid out, you might see a very different scenario in Huntsville. It is only fair that the people of the stte of Alabama have to bear more of the burden for the eduaction of the children of Huntsville as the people of Newark New Jersey do. Instead the people of Newark pay for the very high level of education provided to the CHildren of Huntsville, while their own Children must recieve a less than standard education.

Time for a big change. Let the people of Alabama bear the burden of paying for the values they voted for in 2004, and let the people of New Jersey recieve what they pay for, in order to support what they value.

Its time for the value voters to put their money where their mouths are.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
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oneman onevote Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
76. I know Huntsville..
sorry. You have fallen for the famous IQ hoax.
"States with higher IQ vote Democrat:" -- Many
hundreds of blogs, and even the famous Economist of
Britain, have fallen for the IQ by State hoax. If
you want the real story, read below. This
material is organized (or, you may argue, disorganized)
blog style, in roughly reverse chronological
order.



Farther down are honest tables showing smarts by
state and by nation. Fascinating stuff.

================
For exact details on how you have been fooled, visit this site:
iSteve.com
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
74. Well keep it up and they won't for long.
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TyObe Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
43. It'd become a desert
I don't think the CA economy (agriculture especially) could hold up until water could be piped down from Oregon. It'd be awefully dry here...

Ty
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #52
68. Yeah - Bu$h and his corrupt, fascist buddies at Enron sure did a job
on the good people of California, didn't they?

So, what ethnic group are you planning on gassing first? Won't be the Jews this time, I don't reckon. I bet you'd like to gas the Muslims first, huh? Round 'em up and put them in labor camps, starve 'em and spit on them before you kill them and throw their bodies in the ovens - just like your nazi heroes did in the 1930's and 1940's. Or will it be gays?

Hey, what are you doing here, anyway? You don't fit in. This is a site for people that believe in democracy. There are plenty of neo-nazi hate sites that want to bring about a fascist police state where you would fit right in.

May I suggest freerepublic.com?



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:00 AM
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TedsGarage Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. In Illinois
We grow a lot of corn and soybeans
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:29 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:58 PM
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. I've always preferred to vacation in big cities.
My husband and I were married until the day death parted us and I never did take a trip south with him to his small town. I don't think I made a bad decision.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:30 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:50 PM
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. At least where I live I don't have to worry
about getting shot for the color of clothes I'm wearing. You can't say that about about the many "Islands of Sanity".
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Ha ha ha ha!
I admire you sticking up for your territory, as I think you should, but I never think of what color clothes I am wearing.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
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One_of_8 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. Well, I'm a working person on the west coast
And I don't worry about violence. I do pay a much higher than nationwide average for my housing, and thus live in a very nice newer model 3 bedroom mobilehome rather than in a 1970's era small one bedroom condo. In northern California especially, I think there are many more registered Democrats than Republicans, plus a pretty fair share of those registered for the Green Party.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Are you some sort of gang member?
I've never heard of anyone getting shot for wearing the wrong cloths
in my "Island of Sanity."

On the other hand, I might get mistaken for a deer out there in the
"Heartland".
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Go walk around the south side of Chicago sometime
wearing the wrong colors. Keep an eye on the Chicago Tribune online and you will read about it happening.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. There is a lot more to Chicago than the South Side.....
and what you're talking about is gang-related.

Why are gun-owners so fixated on the violence that MIGHT happen to
them? How do you explain why so many of the rest of us are not nearly
as concerned about that, yet experience no more and possible less actual
violence than you do? There you are, in what I presume to be a rural
area, thinking about being marked for death for wandering into Chicago
wearing the wrong colored shirt. Kind of silly.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
40. rural fears of the big city
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 06:38 AM by WoodrowFan
Rural fears of the big city are nothing new. Look at the warnings published in the 19th century about gangs and white slavers. In reality I feel as safe in downtown DC (and not in the tourist areas either) as I do in a small town. Maybe safer as I'm not branded as an "outsider" in a big city.


I had an aquantance (NOT a friend) from Idaho email me once about flying to DC. He wanted to know how to get to Fredericksburg from the DC airports but worried that if he flew to DC he'd have to drive "through the ghettos." I reassured him DC was safe so long as he didn't drive through certain neighborhoods at 2 am looking like a suburban white boy trying to score drugs.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. LOL
yeah, whatever dude.

"befuddled left"??


which would you prefer, granite or marble?? You can tell your buddies, who also have never been to DC, how dangerous it is... :scared:

bye...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:53 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:37 PM
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Worst Username Ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. An unbrilliant statement.
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. You're a very confused individual, aren't you?
Cleveland, the poorest major city in America, went 67% for Kerry.
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HuskerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #53
69. This poor Dem felt perfectly safe on the downtown streets of Cincinnati
after dark. Some of the FREEPTARDS in front of the center at the fascists for Boosh rally were kind of scary though.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I have never heard of a case of mistaken gang identity here...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:00 PM by LoZoccolo
...that involved wearing the wrong colors. My brother got confronted once in a neighborhood that had gangs, but they asked him to flash his gang symbol (he's not in one) rather than making some judgement about what he was wearing.

Also, "colors" is not the color of your shirt or jacket or whatever, but a specific article like a certain colored bandana. People know not to wear bandanas around here.
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yep sounds like a sane place to live
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:04 PM by Retired AF Dem
having to prove you don't know gang symbols.

On edit I grew up in Chicago. Joined the military in 74 and havent been back since. I don't miss it. I'am getting sick of hearing all the BS about how the country should devide though. I didn't spend my life defending my country for that to happen.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. To play devil's advocate for a moment
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 01:27 PM by Book Lover
In red-state areas, I would have to "flash my Jesus colors" to not get harassed or worse. Forbid I out myself as an atheist.

Me, I grew up in NYC (left in 93); I also know about gangs and ghettos and urban decay. If NYC could keep its tax revenue instead of having to give it to Albany and DC, there would be enough political will to build real public living spaces instead of the projects and to encourage decent job growth (since there would be a bigger fiscal revenue pie to split up).

As for the division problem - voices for unity are growing increasingly few. We will need a real hand across the aisle, and not that asshole Dobson telling an Orthodox priest's son that he knows nothing about Christianity. If the right thinks so little of me that this is their outreach, fuck them.


on edit: fixed the broken sentence
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Nope, not true
I live in a "red" state because uncle SAM said I had to live in one. Last time I was in a church was 30 years ago when I got married. I have not been harassed by anyone because I don't go to church. I just thank god (or whomever) I'm in the downside of life and hopefully wont live long enough to see where this country is going to end up. (on both sides of the isle)
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Your final statement is harsh
Do you see a downward spiral as the only outcome?

As to your initial statement: I'm glad to hear you haven't been nagged or harassed because you don't go to a church, but I have to wonder if your service gives you a pass. Or perhaps you just don't live around those who would. Whatever the reason may be, it seems to underscore the illusion of the monolithic nature of red state/blue state.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Are you guys being purposely argumentative?
Neither the cities nor the rural areas are as dangerous as you guys are making them out to be. The red states do not vote 100% repub, and the blue states don't vote 100% Democratic. Furthermore, it's the corporations based in the blue states that give so much money to allow the repubs to get the red states to vote for them so secession might be a bit tricky if they were to pull up shop and move to more like minded areas. And yes, the blue states send billions of dollars to the red states to supplement their education, roads, health care, etc...

In other words, this complaining about each other does absolutely no good. Why don't we instead work on treating each other as decent human beings and try to find common solutions to our problems?
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. If you mean discussing the issue through, then yes
I posted this to hear what other people thought. As for treating each other well, I am still waiting for a prominent right-winger to make a move.
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last1standing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I just meant that we should treat others on this board well.
You'll turn blue and die waiting for decency from a right winger.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Oh, I didn't realize what you meant
I honestly think we were discussing and not fighting in this thread.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
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HuskerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
71. Where is your proof?
You make a statement and the burden is UPON YOU to prove it. BTW, the stuff coming out of Rush's ASS is not proof.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:55 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:39 PM
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lightbulb Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
70. true that
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 06:45 PM by lightbulb
I can wear whatever I want here in San Francisco and walk through almost any 'hood without getting bothered. Whereas I feared for my life when traveling through western Kansas a few years back with my girlfriend. Malicious looks and snide comments from cops and local hicks alike. Thought they'd pull an Easy Rider on us that night. The country is MUCH scarier than the city when you look the least bit "different".
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Yes, Dan does not address the urban decay issue
But I think he would argue (though I shouldn't put words in his mouth...but here I am doing it) that if cities were allowed to keep the tax revenue they provide via the federal government, urban decay could be adequately addressed.
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George_S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
39. The terror threat at home, often overlooked

As the media focus on international terror, a Texan pleads guilty to possessing a weapon of mass destruction.

By Kris Axtman | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

HOUSTON It began as a misdelivered envelope and developed into the most extensive domestic terrorism investigation since the Oklahoma City bombing.

Last month, an east Texas man pleaded guilty to possession of a weapon of mass destruction. Inside the home and storage facilities of William Krar, investigators found a sodium-cyanide bomb capable of killing thousands, more than a hundred explosives, half a million rounds of ammunition, dozens of illegal weapons, and a mound of white-supremacist and antigovernment literature.

"Without question, it ranks at the very top of all domestic terrorist arrests in the past 20 years in terms of the lethality of the arsenal," says Daniel Levitas, author of "The Terrorist Next Door: The Militia Movement and the Radical Right."

But outside Tyler, Texas, the case is almost unknown. In the past nine months, there have been two government press releases and a handful of local stories, but no press conference and no coverage in the national newspapers.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p02s01-usju.html
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
73. Thanks for the story
I'm a newshound, and I missed that story!
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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. A must read!
This is an excellent article and I'm all for adopting this strategy. I'm sick of rural America pushing faux 'values' that mean nothing to those of us living in urban America. If it's successionist, so be it.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
8. Simplistic and self-righteous, but.....
I'm all for making the hypocrisy of Red State politics clearer their residents.

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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
18. I grew up in a Blue State
New York, but my family moved to Florida when it was largely a blue state, but to the bluest area of the state, Broward. Now in order to get out of the red area that we are in, we are looking for jobs anywhere in any blue state. Snince we are among the more educated people in the area, it may take time but usually people with graduate degrees can eventually find work anywhere in the dountry, if they are willing to move. I have a feeling tha all of those people loking at Canada's immigration web site, when they discover tha no nation will take Americans easily, wil do the next best thing and migrate to blue states, cauising a massive brain drain in the red states. Florida newspapers have been groping with the issue of brain drain for a decade now, and the move of FLorida into the red column will likely accelerate this.

In fact, it may be important for Blue states to create an "internal wall' against immigration from redstates, or at leasr only make it easy for people who were born in those states to return to them, while creating a "border fence" similar to the ones that red statesa want to put up to keep foreigners out, in order to keep res state trash out of our liberal states.

For decaded, the pacific nortwest tried to do this by creating high fees for people coming from the outside. They had large fees for people who were not residents of the state for at least a few years to get auto tags ( though this may have been ruled unconstitutional), blue states can create obstacles to those from red states from making an exodus to the big cities. Unless you can provide a birth certificate showing you were born in a blue state, ity can be made economically more difficult for red staters to get in.

These third world red staters can be fences out. Another thing that Blue states shouldo is to start to work towards a dollar for dollar return when it comes to geting back money from the fedeal government from the tax dollars of its citizens. Many small states claim that in order to meet their obligations to maintain federal programs, such as medicaid and upkeep of the massive interstates that are virtually empty but must be maintained, but right now federal law gives them money according to a formula and allows them to keep any mone they dont spend that they receive from the federal government, and use it for other purposed. Frequently this is even abused. For example, many states get money for education, or health programs like medicaid, or vocational programs to retrain workers who have lost their jobs due to outssourcing, but these states set up their program,s to make it very difficult for citizens to access the services, and then when there is leftover money, these states transfer that money to things run totally bty the states. Most notorious among these are state prisons and county jails. THese states underfund education, underfund medicaid. or set up critieria making almost no-one eligible and then use the money to finaince the states prison systems or local jails which is allowable under federal law. So thesew states virtually get off having the federal government pay entirely for their criminal justice systems, while blue states must keep their local taxes higher than they would need to if they got their fair share of federal funds. THough people like Bush are liekyl to fight any attempt to reapportion this money, Democrats shoul start fighting for it. Even though I come from a state that gets back just what it pays out. I started wiring my Congressmen, my Senators, (the Democratic one at least) and the people who live in Bl;ue States shouold start a letter writing and email campaign to try to get thie own elected officials in Washington to start bringing this ups in Congress. At least if they cant get equitablity, they should at least create a system in which the fuinds must totally be spent only on fedreal programs and not be transferable between programs dso that money meant fror schools stays there, and that money meant to provide health care to the poor is only used for that purpose and if not spent exactly where it was allocated, must be returned to the federal coffers to be sent to those states that paid it out in order to finance their programs. Though it was a democrat who did this, this is something Dean did in Vermont. Funds for higher education were diverted to the state prison system. So while Dean was governor of Vermont, the University Sysdtem of Vermont only saw a 7 percent increase in money from the state that was provided by the federal government per year, the Vermont prison system recieved a 150 percent increase per year on average. All of th money came from a simplt transfer of funds from education to the department of corrections. Vermont had a relatively small number of criminals. Much of this money was spent to build jails to keep non-violent criminals in when prior to this diversion of funding, these people were not jailed, but put into programs that allowed them to do their time in community service, rather than in jail. The model was taken by looking at how other states diverted funding from social programs to non-social programs. Vermont, on the other hand, recieves far less in federal funding than it shells out, even though it is a stte with a very small population, which is the reason that states like Wyoming howl for more feeral money. The difference between Deans Verment and Cheneys Wyoming was in order to meet all of its obligations, Vermont had higher than average local taxes. As a result. Vermont still received less than average amount of money back from the federal government for it use on federally mandated programs. The fedeal government creates this catch 22. If a state has high levels of lacal taxation to provide better socail services, the federal government INCLUDES this as a factor in deciding the apportionment formula, while those red states that do not provide services in order to keep their local taxes low, get a bigger percentage of federal funds to meet their federally mandated programs. The inclusion of state level taxes in this formula absolutely must be eliminated as it is unfair to those states whose citizens wish to provide programs that exceed those required by the fedeal government while it allows those state that do not provide such programs to sponge off of the taxes paid by citizens in liberal states in order to meet their bare minumum requirements. Dollar for dollar or at least not allowing funds to be transfered from one program to another or not allowing any federal funds to be used to finance state run programs should be made mandatory.

In oreder to begin this process, the residents and taxpayers of blue states MUST make their voices heard. In fact it takes veryt few people to get their congressmen to start considering doing something. Du has enough people living in Blue States to get a Senator or Congressman to start bringing this up in Congress. If it doesnt get changed, the anger will get aired, Perhaps even make it it the mass media.

I strongly advise my fellow DU'ers to get on the phone, write a handwritten letter or fax their senators and congressmen complaining about the fact that thie high taxes and low return from the federal government allows those res states who put bush back into office to force thie "Values " on us Liberals, while libeal pay for their ability to do so. Its time to be heard. Its time to make ourv taxes work for us and against them. E-mails are Okay, but these other methods of contact get better attention.

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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
41. So, the "Blue States" can be just like gated communities....
Actually, just the bluest parts of the "Blue States". Look at voting per county...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:56 PM
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KenCarson Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. i was wondering if someone revived that phrase "better red..."
but i don't like the divisive binary rhetoric with this piece.
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__Inanna__ Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
27.  Big *Sigh* regarding all this
I moved from a blue state to a red state last year and voted Kerry.

It's bad enough we're dividing on liberalism/atheism vs. fundies/RW, but now state by state, coast by coast? There are nuances and shades of gray in this world, which is precisely why I voted for Kerry, because he realizes this, while * lives in a black/white, evil/good world. I know it's easier for everyone to categorize rather than not, but this is precisely what BushCo wants --all of our energy drained by focusing on our differences, while under the radar he and his are stealthily revising our constitution. Yikes.
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sadinred Donating Member (529 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. You are 100%
correct! I am so tired of this shit!
Sure Blue and Red states can kill each other and Bush&CO can pick over us all like very happy vultures!

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
28. Another fine rant.
very cathartic.

The Republicans have the federal government--for now. But we've got Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Diego, New York City (Bloomberg is a Republican in name only), and every college town in the country. We're everywhere any sane person wants to be. Let them have the shitholes, the Oklahomas, Wyomings, and Alabamas. We'll take Manhattan.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:24 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:57 PM
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
29. I think we should abolish all federal taxes entirely
This was my big rant starting on November 3rd, the day after "the incident".

What if we eliminated all federal taxes and each state maintained its own state taxes and the citizens of each state voted on how much we would contribute to the federal government?

I'm sick of paying for the military industrial complex. I think New York would do very much better on its own. I agree with Mr. Savage "fuck the red states". Let them rot in a hell of their own creation.
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. A tax revolt IS a good idea
There ARE ways to do it?
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
32. savage is on fire
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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
36. UNFORTUNATELY--
WE in the cities are the DEAD ONES as Bush increasingly irritates the muslim world.

A nuke won't be smuggled into some small town in iowa, ya know!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. who, exactly, are they saving it from?/
not the pathetic Iraqi military. And they're not enough left in Afghanistan to save me from anything.

Maybe you need to go back and listen to Rush some more, your talking points are starting to smell old and stale...
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name not needed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Put up or shut up, shitstain.
I don't see you rushing to enlist.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. http://icasualties.org/oif/ByState.aspx
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Neshanic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
38. I love it. Need more like it.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
65. I was looking at a precinct map...
...of Minneapolis today and was horrified to discover that the suburbs were red!!!!
I checked the precinct maps for Blue State urban areas and discovered that in MOST CASES, the suburbs were RED!!!
So I now mandate that the suburbs be banished to the Red States.

Only TRUE urban dwellers will be allowed into the Blue enclaves. You people in the Blue State suburbs and commuter communities can GO FUCK YOURSELVES. The suburbs are ALL A BUNCHA IGNORANT BIGOTS!!!

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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
75. I agree...but it won't be forced, it will just happen
kind of the way Nazi germany lost all the Jewish scientists they needed to actually build the bomb to America (not to mention most of the science and math also needed in the books they burned).

The red states are self destroying. It's that simple. Read Richard Florida's The Rise of the Creative Class. Gay's already tend to be twice as educated and twice as wealthy as average. Educated people with skills tend to be liberal. They will gradually leave the Red states. They are destroying themselves.
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