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Another good LTTE re: "Moral Values" from today's NYT

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checks-n-balances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:21 AM
Original message
Another good LTTE re: "Moral Values" from today's NYT
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 07:50 AM by demo@midlife
My feelings exactly, and quite eloquently expressed...

'Whose Moral Values? The Debate Goes On'

To the Editor:

As a blue state Democrat, I've recently learned that my moral values are very different from those promulgated in the red states. A few examples of things I consider highly immoral:

-Invading a sovereign country, causing the needless deaths of tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis.

-Torture and abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Guantnamo and in Afghanistan in direct violation of international accords.

-Spreading fear and prejudice for political advantage.

-Shamelessly misrepresenting facts to mislead others into believing falsehoods, then refusing to set them straight.

-Ignoring the millions of Americans recently driven out of work and into poverty by a weak economy, while bestowing millionaires with tax breaks they don't need.

-Paying superficial lip service to inclusiveness, while inciting cultural conflict to win elections.

Somehow, the manufactured perception of President Bush's moral clarity trumped the reality of his policies. It was the Democratic Party's ultimate failure to communicate clearly that he should take responsibility for the crass immorality of these acts that cost it the election.

I cannot begin to comprehend how so many good churchgoing, God-fearing people could be driven by their fear and faith to overlook the cynicism and corruption of these acts. It is they and not we who need to re-examine their beliefs.

XXXX XXX

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/opinion/l14moral.html

Edited to clarify
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. PWNT!
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Missy M Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. Mine too!
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Hi Missy M!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. A few more moral injustices
I agree with every one of your views, but I thought I'd add some more of my own.

Increassing the overall economy of China, a known human rights offender to make the US the number one contributor of China's recent economic growth.

Ignoring the Sudan in which millions of people are being slaughtered and forced into refugee camps.

Upholding patent laws to prevent the AIDS vaccine from reaching the millions of impoverished countries whose entire populations are being destroyed by the disease.

For some crazy reason, I thought the Bible said something about "turning the other cheek", "helping the meek", etc, etc....

Call me crazy, but all this death and destruction doesn't seem to fall into anything I've ever read in the bible.
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seeker4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Have you read the bible?
Lots-o-death and destruction. It's a Roarsach test really.
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pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I have
I agree the first book, is all about God's wrath and persecution. However, the message of the "Christian" faith, as told by Jesus and his disciples, was one of peace and forgiveness. I can't say that the 2nd book is without violence in Jesus' execution, but that was the message, that God gave his son to endure the persecutions of man so that all of their sins would be forgiven and heaven would be open to them all. I am a Buddhist, but was raised Babtist so, I have a pretty scary view of hell, and the wrath of God. In one of my world religion classes in school, I was shown the true meaning of Christianity before the corruption of it at the Council of Nicea when the "holy trinity" was created and thus the reasoning for the persecution of all other religions. I think that most religions have had a certain amount of corruption and straying from the original texts to suit the powers that be and zealots of their times. But, some truths still remain, like the ones I mentioned before, and there are some who still try to pervay these meanings, like the Bishop Desmond Tutu who has been an outspoken opponent of the Iraq war citing these very beliefs.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 09:59 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:08 PM
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oneman onevote Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. As I read the second book...
The book known to Christians as the "New Testament" I read a different story. First of all, Jesus never denies "the first book". In fact kind early on in his ministry he quite emphatically says that he has come to fufill the law, not to replace it. (The ancient Jews, having no idea of the New Testament, this book 2, of course called it by their own name)

Our oldest versions of this book, this new Testament precede any Council of Nicea,and include the book of Luke. Here is what Jesus says about himself in Luke 12:

49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Not a very much a hippie-dippey love and peace kind of guy here.
In fact he was a hard-core radical. In his day, they nailed hard-core radicals to a tree, so it meant something. And he didn't fool around.
This son of a carpenter actually went to the very seat of the Jewish theocracy and started throwing the money tables over.

And in the end, the most radical thing he proposed was not rebelling against the gross injustice of the Roman Empire that crushed his land with a heavy hand. His most radical message was that the very nature of man could be changed. He said we could be made over, be made acceptable to God. (the Jews were very serious about sin, and the blood guilt that arose from this offense to God)

They killed him for this.

He was a hard-core radical alright, not some gentle guru on the hill



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:01 AM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:09 PM
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. I have posed these very same arguments to the fundie aquaintances...
...I have and their responses are generally, "Ya, so what's your point?". Then I'm bombarded with the typical conservative responses of:

"Well, if you don't like the direction that our great country is heading, you can just leave and live in one those backward countries that seem to support the values you like" and

"You can always send your tax refunds back" and

"We'd rather fight and see terrorists killed in their homeland rather than fight them here in the U.S." and

"Talk like that just gives aid and comfort to the enemy. Giving aid and comfort to the enemy is treason. You had better change your views or shut your mouth."

We live in very dangerous times.

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pnutchuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Character
"People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."--Ralph Waldo Emerson

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. Many people feel this way. There have been a number of LTTE
in my local papers articulating exactly this view in the last week or two.

Great! Let's work tirelessly to get our message out there!
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. excellent letter--thanks!
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As the deer runs Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. I think it is possible tomake a better argument
Pardon my butting in, but I have always been a gal with strong opinions...

I think you need to go over your list again.
Not that some of those items aren't true, but some of them are unclear.
You weaken your argument this way. I would pick the ones where you are able to document 100% how wrong the Bushies were.

For example:
"-Torture and abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, Guantnamo and in Afghanistan in direct violation of international accords."
If you stopped at "-Torture and abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib" you have a stronger argument. We have the photos of little Ms. England doing her thing. We don't have the same stark visual evidence for Guantanamo and Afganistan.

If you pared down the list to what was provalbe and documents, you might have something we can forward to the people we know who voted for Bush, against their better interest.

Thanks for listening. If I am being unfair in any of this, just let me know. I believe that we all learn by listening to others
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