Is Your Child’s Classmate Unvaccinated? by Christine Vara

[HuckleB]

http://shotofprevention.com/2010/08/30/is-your-childs-classmate-unvaccinated/

"...

Personally, I do my part to ensure my children are up to date on their recommended vaccines, not only for their own protection, but because I believe that the vaccine requirements are part of the school’s responsibility to ensure the best means of public health possible. Similarly, I expect the school to enforce other precautionary measures that will keep my children safe, such as practicing bus safety and conducting fire drills. These days they even conduct “bad person” drills that are intended to prepare kids in the event that a dangerous person enters school property and threatens the safety of the students.

While I believe these risks are minimal, it doesn’t mean I don’t support the school preparing for these situations. I am not foolish enough to believe that these things couldn’t happen in my child’s school or my community. No amount of money or security can eliminate the risk, but we can prepare ourselves for these situations with proper precautionary action.

Likewise, I see immunizations in the same way. Just because my children are healthy, exercise, eat well and wash their hands doesn’t mean they will never fall victim to disease; especially highly contagious and dangerous diseases like measles or pertussis. So why is it that immunizations, which are a safe and effective precautionary step in the prevention of disease, are being dismissed by educated, affluent parents?

...

Perhaps more concerned parents should demand to know how many of their children’s classmates are coming to school unvaccinated. As Dr. Mark Sawyer, pediatric infectious disease specialist at Rady Children’s Hospital in San Diego noted, “Un-immunized people in general contribute to any disease rates. As the rates of un-immunized kids go up, we are inevitably going to see more and more outbreaks of diseases.” It is clear that a failure to vaccinate children attending school endangers us all.

..."


--------------------------------


Thank you, Christine Vara, for a fine piece on this growing issue.

:hi:

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

1. If vaccines work, how can unvaccinated kids be a risk to vaccinated kids?

[DJ13]

2. Same thought I had

[HuckleB]

17. Vaccine Effectiveness

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/parents/why-immunize

[Fearless]

3. Perhaps to younger kids in the school who do not yet have that vaccine.

Best solution I've got. :shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. Shh... she's on a roll. n/t

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

8. By the same token...........

They aren't 100 percent safe either. Some folks have very bad reactions. So I say if someone decides they don't want to take the risk, it's their choice. Don't force someone to do something to their body just because you are fearful of something.

(This was meant as a response to #5 actually)

[HuckleB]

11. Hmmmm.

http://www.who.int/immunization_safety/aefi/immunization_misconceptions/en/index4.html

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

14. They had a good track record with swine flu too....................

[HuckleB]

15. Is that a vague red herring response, or...?

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

18. No more vague than your reply, I guess..........

Read into it what you will.

[HuckleB]

19. How about clarifying what you posted?

:shrug:

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

20. Ok, how 'bout this........

It's my body. I get to decide what goes into it and what doesn't. It not your choice, or the WHO, or anyone else's. It's my choice. Period. Can you understand that?

[HuckleB]

21. Rights are great.

Now when are you going to deal with responsibilities?

Those two things go hand in hand.

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

22. Ah.....

Back to the herd mentality......... er..... herd immunity argument I guess.

(by the way, who gets to make the decision about what is a responsibility or not. Me or You?)

[HuckleB]

23. So juvenile "anti-establishment" cliches are your defense?

PS: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6599

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

24. How does me not wanting YOU or anyone else to have the right

to make decisions regarding my body make me anti-establishment? Is it too much to just want the choice to be my own?

[HuckleB]

25. If you are an adult, you can choose. I can choose to point out the recklessness of that choice.

So what is your point?

PS: You are offering a very juvenile set of cliched retorts. You can choose to offer those, too. I can choose to point them out.

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

26. Again............

Who gets to decide what is reckless and what isn't? You or Me? Just because you decide something is reckless doesn't automatically make it so. Or can't you possibly see that and allow that others may have differing opinions on what is responsible and what is reckless? I'll make my own decisions if that's ok.

[HuckleB]

27. Evidence is a valuable thing.

You can pretend that it's not. You have that right, too.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/all/1

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

28. I could spend all day providing links to back up the risks involved.

But I won't because what our little discussion is really about is the right to choose. I don't get to decide what you do with your body and you don't get to make my choices for me. Go back over my posts and you'll see that I'm only advocating my right to choose. I'm not trying to tell you what you have to do or calling your behavior reckless or irresponsible. But for some reason you feel like you get to decide what I do, what my responsibilities are, and what is reckless on my part. How about you live your life and I'll live mine.

[HuckleB]

29. That's the frame you want to present, because you know the risks do not outweigh the benefits.

http://www.vaccineethics.org/issue_briefs/risk_safety.php


------


On second thought, you didn't know why unvaccinated kids could be a threat to vaccinated kids.

Maybe you don't know that the benefits outweigh the risks.

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

30. So........

Now you know what I know and how I think? How is that possible? Are you accusing me of being dishonest? I guess that explains why YOU get to decide. I can't be trusted with my own decisions I guess.

(edit to add...... way to crawfish and edit that post after my response)

I'm moving on. Find someone else to make decisions for.

[HuckleB]

31. And now you're offering up red herring.

I hope you know how to make it. One never knows when the risks might outweigh the benefits.

:rofl:

[w0nderer]

43. right to choose within limits

your right to choose is fine, if it only affects you

the second it affects anyone else and you refuse to take that into consideration
then the 'anyone' has the right to and choice of
1 pointing it out to you
2 asking a society you both belong to, to correct your behaviour
3 take protective measures to such extent as they need and are reasonable based on the threat

at that point you have a right again 'leave the society and all the protections and regulations it has'

the classic example is:
--
if you are my neighbour, why can't i build and display nuclear bombs in my backyard? so far not a single one has gone off
i'm willing to accept the risk, quit whining!
--


my choice my right
what about someone elses right?
once your right steps on their right then what?

[kimmerspixelated]

35. Do you have kids?

[HuckleB]

37. Yes.

I can't wait to see what red herring direction you'll try to go from now.

[Zoeisright]

41. Fine. Then don't breathe out or touch anything in public.

You certainly have the right to make yourself more vulnerable to disease, but you do NOT have the right to spread that disease around to others. Sheesh.

[kimmerspixelated]

34. Touche'!

Nail hitter!

[HuckleB]

36. Hardly.

No one has ever said any health care procedure is risk free.

However, the risk-benefit profile for vaccinations is quite clear. And the risk of vaccinating is far less than the risk of not vaccinating.

[Zoeisright]

42. And you're exactly right. One more problem with vaccine deniers is that

because these diseases have become more rare, we don't see the horrible side effects of the diseases. And because they aren't seen, many people think they don't exist.

It's hard to explain risk-benefit analysis to some people, because they just refuse to listen to it.

[HuckleB]

5. They are not 100 percent effective.

That does not mean that they don't work.

http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/concepts/intro6.htm

and...

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/parents/why-immunize

[NoNothing]

6. Because the greater the incidence of disease

The greater the chance it will mutate in such a way as to render the vaccine useless. This happens with flu all the time, it would be very bad if it happened with something like polio.

[hedgehog]

10. IIRC, vaccines are designed on the lab bench, then produced

in industrial sized vessels for general use. While it is easy to control the temperature of a small flask of material, it is difficult to endure that all the liquid inside a large vessel is at the exact right temperature. For some vaccines, the bacteria or virus must be exposed to enough heat to disable but not destroy. Because the acceptable temperature range is so narrow, some of the active elements never get hot enough, so emerge fully active. Some of the elements get overheated, and emerge too damaged to elicit an immune response. The result is that some people who get the vaccine may receive an injection of the active bacteria or virus. Others receive an injection that may as well be so much saline solution.

So, a child may have received an injection, but not received the vaccine. The idea of herd immunity is that enough kids are actually vaccinated that the chances of two unvaccinated people meeting and passing the disease from one to the other are very, very small. This wasn't a problem until so many people opted out of vaccination that there were enough people around to keep a chain of contagion going.

It's my impression that newer vaccines are produced in such a way as to avoid the manufacturing problems I describe here.

[Tiras De Carne Seca]

13. herd immunity............

Sounds a lot like herd mentality. You can keep it, thanks.

[HuckleB]

16. If only such meaningless cliches didn't lead to things like...

http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/news/214872-whooping-cough-outbreak-in-california-grows

[damntexdem]

40. First of all, the risk to unvaccinated kids depends on the level of vaccination.

The higher the level, the greater the herd immunity, so the less likely that unvaccinated kids will get the disease.

But vaccination is not necessarily a total preventive. Still, with high levels, all are at low risk. However, if vaccination is low enough, an epidemic can spread. And if vaccination is not a total preventive, then in an epidemic, even vaccinated kids can fall ill.

Then there is the issue of secondary diseases that may spread in an epidemic, where immunity levels are generally lower -- and a vaccinated kids can fall ill from such a secondary disease.

Further, depending on how the disease is spread, the vaccinated can still be disease vectors -- e.g., carry the disease on their clothes. They could thus carry the disease home or elsewhere to the unvaccinated, or not-yet-vaccinated.

[alarimer]

46. Because no vaccine is 100% effective

And people's immune responses vary from individual to individual. Non-vaccinated people are simply free-riders on herd immunity. It is UNCONSCIONABLE for parents to refuse to vaccinate their kids, barring a legitimate medical reason. No unvaccinated kid should be allowed in school.

[Recursion]

47. Because vaccines work on populations more than on individuals

They do work on individuals (you're less likely to get sick if you're vaccinated), but their public health impact is on populations. It's a sum-is-greater-than-the-parts thing; I've seen a demonstration as an example in a graph theory class but I don't know enough about immunology to explain any better.

[mfcorey1]

7. Florida schools require proof of immunization. Students without proof are not allowed in school.

[Fearless]

9. Many states do, but usually you can get a waiver for people with...

Compromised immune systems for instance, when talking about Meningitis.

[HuckleB]

12. Actually, Florida offers religious exemptions from vaccination.

http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/state-vaccine-requirements/florida.aspx

[Dr.Phool]

44. It must be criminal not to.

The St. Pete Times has a mugshot section on their website. This time of year I see a lot of people arrested for "Failure to Vaccinate".

I haven't checked out the statute, but I assume that's what it is.

I have some friends with a lot of fundies in their neighborhood. They won't let their kids play with your kids unless THEY are vaccinated. I guess they never heard that a vaccinated person can carry a disease, and not be affected by it.

[Stuckinthebush]

32. Our schools don't allow non-vaccinated children to register

Thank goodness.

I wish all schools did that. The foolishness of otherwise educated parents is beyond me.

[HuckleB]

33. Unfortunately, it looks like Alabama does allow exemptions.

http://www.nvic.org/Vaccine-Laws/state-vaccine-requirements/alabama.aspx

[Stuckinthebush]

45. Ugh...that's sad

Oh well.

[earth mom]

38. If YOUR kid is vaccinated why the hell do you care if someone else's kid isn't?!

Isn't a vaccination supposed to "protect" your kid, so you should have no worries of your kid catching something from some other kid? :crazy:

WTF! The spin is ridiculous!

I am so damn sick of the fascist attitude about this topic!

The US is a FREE COUNTRY or did some people forget that? :eyes:

[HuckleB]

39. Yes, your spin is ridiculous.

You know why, and, if you don't, read the thread, and you'll find out why.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

48. I'd not paid much attention to the...

...controversy surrounding vaccines until all the hype last year over H1N1. In doing some research I found the commentary in this interview of retired neurosurgeon, Dr. Russel Blaylock, to be shocking, but very believable:

1 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--nWrqIspnQ

2 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnaiubVJv8E&feature=related

3 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktcoJW6mj1U&feature=related

4 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5E2N4pliXs&feature=related

[HuckleB]

49. Blaylock is a quack, as you've been shown on the other thread.