Beyond the NRA's absolutism

[villager]

Beyond the NRA's absolutism

By E.J. Dionne Jr.

Beyond the NRA's absolutism
Leave The Guns At Home
Arm the Senate!

The National Rifle Association wields power that would make an Afghan warlord jealous because the organization is thought to command legions of one-issue voters ready to punish any deviationism from the never-pass-any-new-gun-laws imperative. Many legislators fear that casting a vote for even a smidgen of restraint on weapons sales could be politically lethal.

But imagine if NRA members were more reasonable than the organization's leaders and supporters in Congress in understanding the urgency of keeping guns out of the wrong hands.

NRA leaders, meet your members.

It turns out that the people in the ranks actually are much wiser than their lobbyists. In a move that should revolutionize the gun debate, Mayors Against Illegal Guns decided to go over the heads of Beltway types and poll gun owners and NRA members directly.

The survey, which will be released soon, wasn't conducted by some liberal outfit but by Frank Luntz, the Republican pollster lately famous for providing talking points against the Democrats' health-care bills.

"I support the NRA," Luntz insists. What he doesn't go for is the "slippery slope argument" that casts any new gun law as the first step toward confiscation. "When the choice is between national security and terrorism versus no limits on owning guns," Luntz says, "I'm on the side of national security and fighting terrorism."

Most NRA members seem to agree.

<snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/09/AR2009120903312.html

[paulsby]

1. imagine if the post wrote an article "beyond the ACLU's absolutism"

yea, right. would never happen

[villager]

3. by and large, the ACLU's leadership is vastly saner, and more ethical, than the NRA's

n/t

[virginia mountainman]

6. To bad they are complete hypocrites

[paulsby]

12. wow. thanks for the unsupported biased opinion

that adds a lot to the discussion

[jonathan_seer]

18. Hello idiot at recently as 2007 the ACLU and the NRA were ALLIES fighting together.

Only a truly ignorant (as in uneducated) would think that there is some sort of quid pro quo between the ACLU and this topic.

They've gone to court for Dick Army, been to court with Limbaugh ON HIS SIDE.

The ACLU went to court on the side of the KKK years back AGAINST the NAACP to FIGHT FOR the RIGHT OF THE KKK to march in Skokie Ill.

Amazing that right wing idiots don't remember this, and think the ACLU is a "lefty" organization.

In 2007 THEY ALLIED WITH THE NRA to fight against a policy they both thought unconstitutional.

PROVING, if there were a real "gun ownership" issue trying to limit the right to carry arms, It's the ACLU that would most likely be the first to step up to the plate and DEFEND the rights of gun owners, just as they did in 2007.

The eagerness to kick the ACLU in the teeth is just the best example of super stupid, because it is the organization that MOST LIKELY join gun owners to protect their rights - for the simple fact that the language of the constitution on gun ownership definitely favors free access guns.

The ACLU is NOT Left wing.

The ACLU is NOT Right Wing.

It is an absolutist in regards to the constitution, and it's dedicated to ensuring the constitution is followed.

What and why the ACLU does something is NOT a mirror image nor identical to the motivations of the NRA.

They are NOT enemies of each other.

Their reasons to be are so completely different to connect them like this fool did is more proof of a non-thinking clown than anything else.

If the constitution gives you a right, the ACLU will fight for it. If it isn't clear on something they'll default to your side, but almost never will you see the ACLU in court to take someone's right away in regard to a right we have already. The ACLU isn't about left or right, it is about the constitution.

And that is a reason why I don't particularly like them.

In my book the harm they've done SUPPORTING Right Wing Extremists makes them simply not worth the trouble to support, and definitely NOT a Left Wing organization on any level.

But in the end it' all ok. I mean if this is an example of the intelligence of the typical right winger great. Stupid is as stupid does, and nothing is more stupid than to attack those who help you, because you know so much you don't bother to check the facts - ever.

[paulsby]

19. you violate DU policy with the very title of your thread

so i'll pass on responding to this drivel.

here's a hint, though. one can (and i do) believe in the missions of both the NRA and the ACLU.

[wolfgangmo]

22. What you don't like about the ACLU is that they support all of the constitution

Whereas many in the NRA simply support the second.

[paulsby]

23. you can't even read

i never said anything critical about the ACLU. i support them

what i was commenting on is the way the media classifies the NRA (a civil rights organization) differently from the ACLU.

got it

i support the ACLU
i support the NRA

thats because i support the entire constitution

hth

[sharesunited]

2. Lip service. End sales of new guns and ammo. Turn off the spigot.

[friendly_iconoclast]

4. Like we turned off the heroin spigot in 1914?

n/t

[sharesunited]

7. Go to your neighborhood CVS and ask to buy some heroin.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

10. Why go all the way to CVS when I can walk to the street corner? n/t

[sharesunited]

11. You may wish it were that easy to find. But I think you know it isn't.

Precisely because it's contraband.

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. I would say it's as easy to find as guns in Mexico are.

Which are also contraband, for the most part. Don't forget one definition of insanity:

"Repeating the same action, and expecting different results"

Still claiming that Prohibition can be made to work?

[sharesunited]

14. Ironic you should mention the gun problem in Mexico. That's 2A flow from the U.S.

But not according to Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. But it's an unofficial trade, just like my heroin example. Does that mean it doesn't count?

Actually, a lot *is* from the US- and openly sold to the MX government. Which seems to 'lose' fully-automatic weapons on a regular basis. Many of which are shipped directly to them by US manufacturers.

Other weapons popular are Soviet and Chinese sourced Kalashnikovs, machine guns and RPGs that the CIA liked to give various folks in Central and South America as 'deniable' aid, or new versions of same from people that aren't picky about things like 'end-user certificates' as long as the customer pays in hard cash.

The drug cartels are mostly using stuff that isn't available to US civilians.

[Recursion]

25. Umm.. I live in Boston, used to live in DC

It's ridiculously easy to get in either city.

[Recursion]

24. No need; I can have it delivered within 15 minutes.

Prohibition doesn't work.

[virginia mountainman]

5. Bring back prohibition!!!!

That way, only DC Detectives will have guns!!

[proteus_lives]

16. It will never happen.

Thank god.

[friendly_iconoclast]

8. I like how he believes a obvious push poll when it says what he wants to hear

It's called 'confirmation bias'. Some of the other problems with the Luntz poll are discussed here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=276584&mesg_id=276584

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. Said otherwise (like a true republican):

Yes, I support violating more civil liberties for Americans in the fight against terrorism.

[villager]

17. predictably, the gungeonites - to the right of most NRA members -- swarm the thread

Maybe the civilians are too busy with the carping over the health care fiasco?

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. Still on the "Protocols of the Elders of The NRA" kick, eh?

Or just the old "No true Scotsman", wherein "Democrat and/or lefty MUST = gun control proponent"

Luntz has found another sucker, it seems.

You sound just like the rest of Luntz's marks...err, clients.

Tell us, did you find other Luntz polls to be accurate? The ones about healthcare, perhaps?

As Euromutt pointed out on another thread about this, Luntz makes no bones about cooking results:

Euromutt (1000+ posts) Mon Dec-21-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. "It's not what you say, it's what people hear."
That slogan is actually part of the polling firm's logo. Right here, on the first page:

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/luntz_poll_questionnaire_and_responses.pdf

Zogby is notorious for tailoring polls to get the results the party commissioning the poll wants; these guys appear to be worse.

[Doctor_J]

20. Remarkable that there is prohibition on something (drugs),

a danger primarily to oneself, but not on guns, a danger primarily to others.

[villager]

21. Morning kick for the non-gun worshipping crowd...

n/t

[marmar]

27. A kick of your kick, although I see the posse has already taken it over.

nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

28. "Luntz said it, I believe it, that settles it" Faith before facts, IOW

n/t

[X_Digger]

29. And yet..

Poor E.J.- trussed into supporting a bush/cheney era unconstitutional abridgement of rights based on a secret list- a position that he would otherwise abhor if applied to other rights.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/luntz_poll_questionnaire_and_responses.pdf

“Law-abiding Americans should have the freedom to choose how to protect themselves, based on their personal situation. No local, state or federal government should dictate this decision.”
NRA / NON-NRA
92% / 83% AGREE (NET)

A proposal requiring every gun owner to register each gun he or she owns as part of a national gun registry.
NRA / NON-NRA
59% / 42% OPPOSE (NET)

A federal law allowing guns to be carried in America’s national parks.
NRA / NON-NRA
76% / 51% SUPPORT (NET)

In the Heller v. D.C. case, the Supreme Court ruled that there is a constitutional right to keep a loaded handgun at home for self-defense. Do you ____ with this ruling?
NRA / NON-NRA
95% / 92% AGREE (NET)

“The Second Amendment should apply to state and local laws, not just federal laws.”
NRA / NON-NRA
93% / 86% AGREE (NET)

Do you think President Obama will attempt to ban the sales of guns in the United States at some point while he is president?
NRA / NON-NRA
79% / 57% YES (NET)

I also find it funny that 4M+ NRA members continue to support the NRA and send money every year- obviously they don't disagree with the NRA so much that they fail to renew their membership. LOL!!