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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:44 PM
Original message
Scientist: Consensus withstands climate email flap
<snip>

Now, on to Professor North, a physicist who specializes in investigating the causes of climate change through the use of various types of computer models, among other techniques. He is especially well-qualified to comment on this controversy because of his role in investigating the work of one of the key players in the email flap, Michael Mann of Penn State University.

In 2006, North chaired a National Academy of Sciences panel on "Surface Temperature Reconstructions for the last 2,000 Years," which examined Mann's controversial study, known as the "Hockey Stick," which traced Earth's recent climate history. While the panel found some flaws with the study, it largely affirmed Mann's conclusions that late 20th century surface temperatures were higher than they had been in at least four centuries, and possibly far longer than that.

(In the interview, North discusses the work of Stephen McIntyre, who runs the blog ClimateAudit. McIntyre has been writing extensively about the leaked emails. North also refers to a specific leaked email from Phil Jones, who is the director of the University of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit, in which Jones referred to a "trick" used in a study).

Andrew Freedman: What are your thoughts on the significance of this scandal, both in terms of what it may mean scientifically and for public perceptions of climate science?

Gerald North: Scientifically, it means little. All scientists know that this kind of language and kidding goes on verbally all the time. Some of us forget that email has the potential to become public at any time. The public perception is another matter. There may be some people who do not know any scientist personally and think they are lily pure, dedicated (do-gooder) nerds. These private comments might lead to less confidence in science. It is a shame, since our country is so scientifically illiterate and is easily swayed by perceptions that have little to do with scientific method and culture. They have very little influence on my opinion.

AF: Do these hacked emails make you question the "consensus" on climate change at all, or to a greater extent perhaps than you did before?

GN: I accept the IPCC procedure of assessment. It is not perfect, but it is probably the best we can do in learning the state of the science at an instant in time. It employs people who work actively in the field. Sometimes they are assessing their own work - egos clash. They are drawn together in workshops; then they separate to write the chapters of the report. There is a huge amount of anonymous refereeing of the reports. Monitors check that every complaint is at least discussed (in writing but not necessarily in the final report). There is a tendency to make the report reflect the mainstream view and de-emphasize some things that contradict it.
This is the way science works. People follow an established paradigm. They stay with it until it becomes uninteresting or stagnant. A paradigm can fall by an internal inconsistency that cannot be reconciled, or it may face an insurmountable contradiction with observed data. This latter does not happen overnight. Usually, with long standing paradigms, the data or its interpretation turn out to be wrong.

ʻClimategateʼ is not even close to causing active researchers to abandon the anthropogenic global warming hypothesis. This hypothesis (Anthropogenic GW) fits in the climate science paradigm that 1) Data can be collected and assembled in ways that are sensible. 2) These data can be used to test and or recalibrate climate simulation models. 3) These same models can be used to predict future and past climates. It is understood that this is a complicated goal to reach with any precision. The models are not yet perfect, but there is no reason to think the approach is wrong.

<snip>

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitalweathergang/2009/12/gerald_north_interview.html
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ah, the deniers and their furtive unreccing crew strike....
n/t
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I rec'd it and it is still unrec'd.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. that's some unreccing crew the folk o' the troll have!
;-)
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It is, isn't it?
I just rec'd and someone cancelled me out at the same time.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. All threads using offensive term "denier" likening this disagreement to Holocaust deniers will be ..
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 01:57 PM by imdjh
... unrec'd by this poster.

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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. you'd unrec it anyway, being the vociferous denier that you are!
;-)
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I deny that allegation and the alligator it rode in on.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Where is the reference to the Holocaust in the OP???
Nobody gets exclusive use of the term "deniers".
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Really Kestrel, "Who me?" . It doesn't work for you.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. ^^This post makes zero sense.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R and of course the faithful true deniers won't accept this
They, like the flat earthers and IDiots, prefer to only admit the "evidence" which backs up what they've already been told to believe, and ignore the massive amount that shows them wrong.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Global Warming isn't similar to flat earth, it's closer to the Apocalypse.
Every time there is a string of natural disasters the end timers all claim it's a sign of the end of the world or the Second Coming or something. There's a lot of money in both.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. you could actually try *responding to the specific points in the OP*
...for a change...

:shrug:
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I disagree. Both involve people who make even more money by denying problems
and sticking to the status quo.

I have several friends in various science fields directly related to this, and ALL agree that we're causing if not speeding up global warming, and NONE of them are getting rich from it. That said, many more companies are getting extremely rich by fighting the changes necessary to not shit where we eat. Do you own oil wells, or perhaps have money invested in internal combustion engines? Or perhaps you're just stubborn?
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Check this out:
If they don't reach an agreement in copenhagen then literally billions will die.

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Warming-will-39wipe-out-billions39.5867379.jp

Billions.

This is serious.

Almost makes you wish they hadn't shredded the data or driven skeptics out of the debate so we could know exactly.

But of course, that's just what global warming wants you to think.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. And like the Jehovah's Witnesses, the day will keep changing. Notice how it's 40 years from now?
And if the world population is 9 billion. Well, there's a big chunk of your problem right there. If the population of the world is at 9 billion then we're screwed anyway. But that's another discussion, the world breeding like rabbits and rabbits not being known for their brilliance or inventions.
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
15. No surprise to me
I looked at the emails and found them to be almost entirely trivial, reflecting on the individuals rather than the science.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. "reflect the mainstream view and de-emphasize some things that contradict it."
Edited on Tue Dec-01-09 03:43 PM by JonQ
"This is the way science works. People follow an established paradigm. They stay with it until it becomes uninteresting or stagnant. "

Wow, this guy is allowed to call himself a scientist?

In related news: scientists for phillip-morris continue to renounce whistle blower claims that "smoking causes cancer", a view which they say goes against their consensus and would require some sort of massive conspiracy to cover up if true. Which is of course ludicrous.
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caraher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I don't think Philip Morris researchers ever constituted a consensus
not in the relevant sense of a consensus *across the broad scientific community*.

The quote you criticize is a pretty uncontroversial Kuhnian description of how science works. I don't see how anyone could react to it be questioning the speaker's "science cred" on the basis of such a pedestrian observation.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. His quote is exactly the problem here
people are encouraged to stick with the paradigm, and the results are altered to reflect the "common perception" that is absolutely not science. That is politics.

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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. And the point of that, which you seemed to have missed
is that if you wouldn't accept this level of amateurish behavior from scientists who "proved" something you dislike you shouldn't then turn around and accept it as Gospel from those who "prove" something you do like.

Destroying and manipulating data, colluding amongst themselves to silence critics, and relying on funding derived from proving a certain point rather than finding the truth (the director of the CRU saw his budget increase 6x from the 90s once he started pushing the "we were all going to die immediately from global warming" spiel), these are concerns to rational people who understand what scientific research should entail.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. An excellent interview for those willing to read it.
Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, villager.:thumbsup:
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
21. the usual head-in-the-sand crowd has infested the open comments at the link...
ugh... where do these people come from??
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
24. You notice they didn't refute any of the issues in detail
they merely said, to summarize, it doesn't matter, we're still right.

Climate scientists have let themselves off the hook and decided that climate scientists are always right.

Likewise, Nixon grants himself pardon over nixons involvement in watergate.
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BennyD Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
25. The words "Climate Fraud" are appearing in a number of UK newspapers. n/t
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