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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:52 PM
Original message
Fascist America: Are We There Yet?
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2009/08/fascist-america-ar...

Fascist America: Are We There Yet?
Friday, August 07, 2009

-- by Sara

big snip worth reading//


It's so easy right now to look at the melee on the right and discount it as pure political theater of the most absurdly ridiculous kind. It's a freaking puppet show. These people can't be serious. Sure, they're angry -- but they're also a minority, out of power and reduced to throwing tantrums. Grown-ups need to worry about them about as much as you'd worry about a furious five-year-old threatening to hold her breath until she turned blue.

Unfortunately, all the noise and bluster actually obscures the danger. These people are as serious as a lynch mob, and have already taken the first steps toward becoming one. And they're going to walk taller and louder and prouder now that their bumbling efforts at civil disobedience are being committed with the full sanction and support of the country's most powerful people, who are cynically using them in a last-ditch effort to save their own places of profit and prestige.

We've arrived. We are now parked on the exact spot where our best experts tell us full-blown fascism is born. Every day that the conservatives in Congress, the right-wing talking heads, and their noisy minions are allowed to hold up our ability to govern the country is another day we're slowly creeping across the final line beyond which, history tells us, no country has ever been able to return.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Obama has given the minority every opportunity to participate.
If they don't start behaving in a constructive manner, they'll be ostracized and we'll go on without them. No one will be able to say, with a straight face, that they weren't given a shot at being a part of the bunch and making a contribution to the process.

They had a choice. They took the path of gross stupidity and craven selfishness.
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imnKOgnito Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. When does this ostracizing begin?
All I see is the same old goosestepping by those who mistakenly believe this can't happen here. Polite discourse is not going to turn back this tide. The MAJORITY that is already in power needs to assert themselves now rather than seeking "bipartisan" solutions. As you've stated, they've been given every opportunity to participate. It's crystal clear that is not their intention. The time for playing nice has long since passed, and if those we've elected don't get that through their heads soon, then the alliance this article speaks of will absolutely get back into power.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. My guess? After this recess.
The use of the rather loaded term "goosestepping" on your part is most unfortunate, as well as hyperperbolic.
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imnKOgnito Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. You're right
That was inappropriate terminology and not what I meant to convery. My apologies. As for the ostracizing, though I will hope for it, I won't hold my breath.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. It's not all you, or even your 'bad' as the kids say.
I didn't mean to snap. I'm just starting to get really, really tired of this entire "fascist" theme.

When stupid people in America start yelling, people are way too quick to scream "Waaaah!! Faaaaaaaaaaas-cists!! Waaaaaaah!" No, in most cases they aren't fascists, they are stupid people who are yelling. I don't like seeing this propensity to "group" them and demonize them (and empower them with a label). I'd much rather call them out for their stupidity, be it caused by a failure of facts, racism, or mindless affiliation, to the point where they put their own welfare last, with a failed political ideology.

As the people who actually experienced the absolute and unimaginable horror of the holocaust die off, it just seems easy for some to make light of that entire horrific era. People who can't get over slightly under three thousand people dying in a terrorist attack in NYC are way too ready to blow off what happened to millions in Nazi Germany, or later, in the Killing Fields.

I suppose I am waving my buggy whip at "progress." I'd be lying if I didn't admit it bothers me that there are people alive today who are entirely unclear which side the Germans or the Japanese fought on, and who think that WW2 took place in the "Eighteen Hundreds."
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. You're tired of the "fascist theme" - WE'RE tired of the FASCIST THUGGERY!!!
Edited on Sun Aug-09-09 11:52 AM by TankLV
"sorry" if we upset your tender sensibilities...

as those who actually EXPERIENCED the horrors of Germany die off, we lose THEIR INSITE into how EXACTLY THESE THUGS ARE TO THE BROWNSHIRTS OF THE PAST!!!

THAT is the real tragedy - that YOU PEOPLE refuse to RECOGNIZE it!!!

I defy you to talk to ANY of those who were around back then and find ONE - just ONE who thinks as YOU do...

I do, and I am experiencing the same hushed tones and guarded "noticing" when they know they are talking amongst friends as was starting to happen during the past eight years, then there was a brief reprieve after the election, and is now starting up again.

The FEAR and SADDNESS in our grandparents eyes is telling...
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. "YOU PEOPLE??" You need to find a way to calm yourself down. You are overwrought.
And not in a good way. SHOUTING isn't going to improve my regard for your opinions.

You also have no idea what you're talking about. I suggest you quit before you make a total fool of yourself.

I could be your grandparent. I think I have a better sense of what the score is than you do--and a better understanding of how offensive it is to toss the those terms around in a light and casual way. You denigrate the seriousness of the events that transpired when you use them inappropriately for partisan political purposes.

What's it called--Godwin's Law?

I suggest you avoid that at all costs. It's an argument-loser.

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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. you are full of it
i have relatives who were around during the holocaust. and none of them believe the ridiculous hyperbolic rubbish you are peddling. yes, god forbid we have some dissent and some of it is even criminal dissent (iow not a lawful protest). Big Fucking Deal.

seriously. get real.

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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. What you fail to realize....

is the process by which the people of Germany were led into fascism. The brownshirts did not start out with the goal of creating the Holocaust, it was a long process of intimidation, propaganda, nationalism, and demonization that led them to that dark place. We are seeing some elements of that now, and I feel that it is most important to point out the similarities so that it does not grow into something worse.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hyperbole never solved anything.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Acknowledging the truth doesn't hurt. Seems to be a lot of
truth to this article.
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imnKOgnito Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. This is demonstrably happening now...
Hardly hyperbole.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. Sticking your head in the sand didn't either
Read the article, dumbass, and show us the hyperbole.

I will add you to the list of "Good Germans"
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imnKOgnito Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. A good and important read
KnR
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is worrisome--very worrisome. We thought we dodged the bullet
when Obama was elected.

I am interested to see the same tag applied to these groups that I've used--they are behaving like
tantrum throwing toddlers.

The adults MUST regain control.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kick and Rec.
Discount these people at our own peril. They have lots of guns, and they're just itching to use them. It's only a matter of time before some Congressperson or staffer gets shot.

Death threats are flying in to unions and supporters. And the brown shirts are happy. Nobody is trying to stop them. The Republicans are on their side. The police are on their side. And the military has been infiltrated for years. Especially the Air Force.

We've got a standing mercenary army, led by fundie zealots.

Discount these people at our own peril.
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MarcoS Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Oh, I'm itching for that fight.
The Declaration of Independence holds as true for our government as it did for Britain's:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. "Little Man," by Wilhelm Reich
might help some connect the dots...
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. It looks like they won't have to use their guns
Dick Durbin today caved in on reform, so the fascists have won the health care battle without firing a shot. I don't think they'll need to shoot anyone, because our side is so cowardly and weak that when they say "Boo!" we run away crying.

There won't be any physical casualties , which is the only good thing about this capitulation.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. Already there- the nation is governed by corporate money and power
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 09:18 PM by depakid
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Vila Restal Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. Facism?
A bunch of people being loud, angry, rebellious, no matter how uncivil and rude is not Facism, but the American Spirit at its purest form. Facism is pure simple corporatism, A Facism government silences opposition. The govt. is working very hard in silencing critics of Obama and his policies. These townhall disruptions are made of average americans (dems, reps and independents) who are angry about the direction of this country.

What is Facism at is relates to us.

The Federal Reserve threatening martial law if the bailout was not passed is facism.
Blackwater murdering innocent people and not being held accountable is facism
Halliburton getting no bid contracts is facism
Drug companies receiving immunity from vaccine injuries is facism

The problems we have now are not caused by left/right ideologies, but rather Transnational Corporations that simply want to rule this country and the world. Their vision is not that of communism or capitalism, but a feudal system where technology is used to enforce their rules. They are robbing us blind through the devaluation of our currency, have any of you seen the dollar index lately. We need to stop bickering about left vs. right and unite to defeat a common enemy.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. If what we're seeing is 'the American spirit', you can have it. Don't
count me in because I want no part of their hatefulness.
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Vila Restal Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Just Remember
When you guys were protesting against the Iraq War and the right was calling you hateful and violent. When idiots at Fox news were demonizing you. Now it's your turn. If you really believe in your cause you will accept resistance as part of price.
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FatDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. We were not trying to silence debate.
That is the difference here. That is also where the fascist brownshirt comparisons come from. We are ready, willing, and able to debate the right on health care. They are afraid of debate, so must shut it down.

And while the people yelling at town halls may be average Americans, they are average Americans being organized by corporations and their lobbyists. The leaders of this little revolt have been exposed time and time again.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. You might have a point...if you can point to where we were shutting down debate...
...rather than trying to add one view that had been peremptorally closed off.

And you might notice, the idiots at Fox are still demonizing us.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. How is the "government working very hard in silencing critics of Obama and his policies"?
Edited on Sun Aug-09-09 11:57 AM by TankLV
I only see YOUR REPUKE ORGANIZED THUGS doing the SILENCING by INTIMIDATION.

"Democracy" my ass - it's YOU and your apologists here are BROWNSHIRTS, pure and simple!
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Vila Restal Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Funny
The right wingers are calling you guys Brownshirts and the left is calling the right Brownshirts, so that cancels you guys out. The enemy are the transnational banking cartels, don't let them divide you. Also we are suppose to be a "Republic" not a Democracy. There is a huge difference. Don't worry I am posting at Free Republic also, they are also still stuck in the left/right paradigm.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Oh, good. We were really worried about that.
Let us know how you make out over there.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
25. How do fascists overtake democracies with only a fraction of the public behind them
Edited on Sun Aug-09-09 11:18 PM by Juche
The Nazi fascists, even in their heyday, only had about 35% of the vote. The rest went to the communists and social democrats, who had a supermajority. So how do the fascists take over a country's democracy when they are lucky to get 20-30% of the vote?

The author states no country have become fascist due to military takeover, it was taking over a democracy.

Plus, my understanding is that fascism involves a situation of mass social unrest, where the thugs try to restore order and build goodwill among the public by doing it. There is some of that in the minutemen who harass illegal immigrants and try to secure the borders in this country (the same way Mussolini's brownshirts used to harass public drunks), but I don't think that (right now) our country has the level of domestic stress and unrest we'd need to become truly fascist. Maybe in a few years when unemployment is still 10-11%, peak oil is hitting then they will be more prone, but right now our problems are actually fairly minor to the problems countries faced in the 1920s and 1930s. In the 30s unemployment was 25%, countries were dealing with the severe consequences of WW1 and there was far far less wealth to go around to deal with problems.

Plus fascism takeovers seem to involve ex-military personnel. Most of the wingnuts are old people who have probably never served in the military. In fact, the conservative movement in the US is getting older and older and not really being replaced by young people. The average listener to talk radio is about 60 (Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh), I think O'Reilly's listeners are over 70. There is not a pool of young people with military experience to draw upon in our country. The majority who support fascist movements here are the elderly (those 50+), many of whom probably have no military training. Watch some youtube videos about the disruptors because many are men and women who are physically pretty geriatric, it is a far cry from the blackshirts and brownshirts who were made up of disaffected, unemployed ex-soldiers. Even if there is a fascist movement in the US, it is made up of people in their 70s who are not veterans, as opposed to the fascist movements in the 20s and 30s that were made up of young war veterans (of which there was a much larger pool back then).

Also Germany and Italy did not have long established democracies when they went fascist. Germany had a democracy that was barely 15 years old, and Italy was still a kingdom. The US has had democratic institutions for 220 years.

And keep in mind that the country is moving leftward more and more. Young people lean left, non-whites lean left, unmarried people lean left, secularists lean left, urbanites lean left. The opposite (older, married, white, religious people in rural areas) lean right. Every demographic is moving this country to the left. Liberals and nonwhites combined (aka the base of the democratic party) used to make up about 30% of the electorate just about 15-20 years ago, now they make up almost 45% of the electorate. And that number is going to rise as young white liberals and a growing latino population start voting.

I'm not trying to ignore the seriousness of this issue (millions of armed, poorly informed, enraged wingnuts are out there). However I do not seem them taking over the country anytime soon. I will not be surprised when domestic terrorism spikes even more than it already has, but I think our democracy is safe from these people. They are going to become more and more violent on an individual (and probably a small milita) level, but I think the functionality of our democracy is safe from them.
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johnhkennedy Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
28. To Stop Them We Must Prosecute Them. Start with Bush & Cheney
The would be fascists will have to violate our Federal Laws to accomplish their goals. One way to stop them is to be sure they are prosecuted and jailed every time they do.

Only Prosecution deters Federal crimes, only Prosecution deters Abuse of our Constitution

The only effective way we the voters can stop this from happening is to fight for Prosecution of all of those in public office who violate Federal Laws (especially Torture ) and abuse our Constitution and rights.

We need to start with Bush, Cheney and their Torture Advocating appointees Lawyers.

We have to make an example of the Bush criminals or it will happen again and again until we lose our most cherished freedoms.


SIGN THE PETITIONS To Prosecute Them Now!

at http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
31. K/R - everyone should read
We're there, folks, Godwin's law notwithstanding.
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espiral Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
32. The US has already been...
...fascist for quite some time now, at least for a century. Nothing is new under the sun.
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