Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Cenk: Tearing Down The "Move On" Defense Of Bush Administration Crimes

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 01:29 PM
Original message
Cenk: Tearing Down The "Move On" Defense Of Bush Administration Crimes
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 02:20 PM by ihavenobias

By Cenk Uygur

John Barry has written what I will call the "move on" defense of the Bush administration in this week's Newsweek. The idea is that it is fairly clear that the Bush administration violated the law in several instances, but since we already know this and his party has already lost an election, let's just move on already.

You can read the piece and you can see that I am not exaggerating at all. That is truly his argument. In fact, we will have Barry on Monday to talk to him about this article.

If I seem incredulous at that argument, that's because I am. They never taught me that one in law school. "Look, your honor, we know my client committed this crime, we've already caught him and the victim is already dead. So, let's just move on already!"

To say Bush's defense is that his opponents want "political vengeance" is a non sequitur. Couldn't every trial in the country be characterized as some sort of "vengeance" based on this logic?

The reaction to his law breaking cannot be a defense for his law breaking. "Your honor, your attempt to try my client is an act of vengeance that justifies my client's original law breaking. Hence, he should not be held accountable for his crimes." Would that argument make any sense in the context of any other crime? You would get laughed out of court. They might revoke your admission to the bar.

But we're told that in the political context it makes sense. I think the exact opposite is true. I think it is even more important that we hold our elected leaders to an even higher standard than the average citizen. They are entrusted with enforcing the laws. If they are the ones who break them, society is in much larger trouble.

Bush clearly ordered spying on American citizens without a court order. Everyone knows this. Bush has even admitted it (after originally ). This is clearly illegal. What is the defense? It's legal if the president does it? I think I've .

This law is an admonition against the government. If no one in government can be tried for it because it would be "political vengeance" to do so, then the law has no meaning.

The same is true of torture. If a citizen waterboards someone, that is aggravated assault. If the state does it, it is torture. It is by definition a governmental crime. Who do we prosecute if the government has immunity because of the "move on" defense?

Torture is against federal statute and our treaties prohibiting its use are the law of the land. If you allow the Bush administration to do this without any repercussions at all, then you might as well take the law off the books. Because then the state can torture anyone they like. Because prosecuting them would be "political vengeance."

Some will argue that these things were not technically illegal because the Office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department authorized them. In these cases, the OLC was not an independent actor; they were part of the executive branch and a partner in crime. If Bush said he would like the authorization to kill innocent people and the OLC gave it to him, would it be legal?

By the way, this is not theoretical. The Bush administration's orders did in fact lead to the deaths of many innocent people, like the of a taxi-driver named Dilawar at Bagram Air Base. That's what happens when you do illegal torture. Sometimes it gets out of hand. That's part of the treason we passed laws against it...

To read the rest of this article,






Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. I know you'll post a link for the radio interview!
I would really like to hear it! Thanks. K & R!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Me too. K&R!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. Unless someone beats me to it, I'll post it tomorrow when traffic is higher.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Someone beat me to it, here it is
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Send Cenk these links:
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 01:49 PM by formercia
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
37. Done. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. It is important that we prosecute crimes
otherwise, as Cenk point out, then you might as well take the law off the books. In a Nation of Laws, the application of those laws should serve as a deterrent to future wrong (evil) doers. I don't know why Bush/Cheney should be immune and I don't know why Bernie Madoff is still living in his penthouse. Torture, most rightly, should be the complete undoing of the former administration. They are responsible and should be prosecuted. K&R!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
matthewf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. He's spot-on. The "Move On" defense sucks.
It sucked in 2000, it sucked in 2004, and it sucks now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
navarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. let's not forget Ford 'moving on' after Nixon
that paved the way for this shit...

Of course we could go back to FDR not prosecuting Bu$h's grandfather and the rest in The Business Plot. I think heads should have rolled back there too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
44. And Clinton "moving on" from Iran-Contra
And, while I know there are many who disagree with this, I believe that LBJ (and every president since) "moved on" from the Kennedy assassination. What's amazing is how many of the same players (or their relatives) keep popping up. And everytime we "move on" we're told it's for the good of the country.

I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but if they aren't finally held accountable any ground we regain while Obama is president will be lost as soon as this crowd takes over again and the damage they do then will be worse. Everytime they've made a comeback they've gotten worse.

I'm hoping that Obama will realize that "for the good of the country" Bushco must be prosecuted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
20score Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R. It's what they've been doing for years. "We need to look forward now."
Hell, three days after the coup in Haiti they were saying "we need to look forward, don't ask if we were involved."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CherylK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. K & R!!!
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Azlady Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. Kick & Recommend
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. +1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
12. Move along now nothing to see here! Except the aftermath of lies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. K&R The "move on" defense is a bad way to move toward the future.n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. Good for him. This is why the republican party is a bunch of
criminals. They get away with it EVERY FUCKING TIME.

One (just one) of the things that I hold against Poopy's favorite son, Billy Jeff Clinton.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud progressive Donating Member (358 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. why did bush feel he had to go around the law rather than change it?
in my view, his only defense could be that the existing law was too restrictive or too slow for what he wanted to do, AND, changing it would have taken too long OR would have involved too many people and therefore would have risked its disclosure. if some or all of this is true then at least one could argue that he truly thought he was protecting the nation - legal or not!
after all, we all know the man was a moron and a disaster for the country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
riverdale Donating Member (881 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
51. That is the best question of all
As we all remember, the Dems were always quick to go along with any Constitution-breaking bill GW Bush sent along to them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. Excellent article, and I thank you! K&R...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
18. justice is always decried as vengeance with the GOP
they call it "persecution" when they are actually held accountable for ethics, laws, and other pesky things like murder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'm assuming this comment (left by someone at HuffPo) is going to piss you off, for good reason...
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 03:03 PM by ihavenobias
Someone named JimR at HuffPo wrote the following:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/the-move-on-defense-of-ge_b_160927.html

"Sorry, but Barry is spot on, and I think you misrepresent his argument. You fail to mention that Congress failed the country every bit as much as Bush did. And what exactly do you hope to charge Bush with?

Lying about WMDs in Iraq? Bill Clinton said they were there. The United Nations said they were there.

Starting an illegal war? It was authorized by Congress (don't try giving me that pathetic excuse that it wasn't a vote for war. It damn well was.). And as Barry points out, only 3 members bothered to read the NIE.

Illegal wiretapping? All part of the Patriot Act, approved by Congress.

Torture? The Bush Administration expertly steered this issue into a legal gray area, and Congress did nothing to stop it.

We all have fantasies of bringing the bad guys to justice. But seeking criminal charges at this time would tear this country apart at a time when we desperately need to come together.

The good news is, in the executive branch, the bad guys are gone. The bad news is, some of the bad guys who helped him are still there in Congress, on both sides of the aisle."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. you know, the crazies are out these days
they are really freaking out right now.

I have stopped reading all posts that use "Barry" in reference to the new President. They are usually followed by claims that the person is or used to be a Dem, until the Dems began attacking Palin so unfairly...as they are now attacking Bush.

LOL.

This guy has cherry picked things which may or may not be true, but are certainly not fully represented in his post, and have been twisted to avoid the truth of the matter. yeah, it pisses me off. I've been pissed online for days now. Digg and HuffPo have turned into cesspools of whining birthers and flat-earthers and palinistas.

Gross.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. To be fair to the poster, he was referring to the author of the Newsweek article, not the President
Mr. Barry will be coming on TYT tonight and I can't wait to see how Cenk handles the interview in light of this article.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. ohh, right:-)
at first I wasn't that into Cenk's show, but for some reason lately I'm digging it.

As for my Barry confusion, perhaps that speaks to my frazzled freeper nerves.

I see Barry everywhere!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. Your taste has improved!
;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mt13 Donating Member (281 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. my favorite line
"Look, your honor, we know my client committed this crime, we've already caught him and the victim is already dead. So, let's just move on already!"

can you imagine a justice system following this line of defense? YIKES!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tclambert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. "Did you just shoot that guy?" "Yes, officer, he's dead. We all know it. Let's move on."
"Well, okay, then. You can go."

What I want to insert here is a clip from "Law and Order" of Sam Waterston saying, "That's an outrage!" in that outraged voice he does so well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mt13 Donating Member (281 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. i can hear it!
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 07:37 PM by mt13
with that ever-so-preachy whine of his!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
46. That WOULD be perfect!
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ejbr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. Why is the crux of his argument
so difficult for the talking heads to understand? In a very large sense, investigations and prosecutions are no longer about Bush & Co, it is about those who will follow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Because their corporate masters require them
to be willfully obtuse?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. There's a time to move on from something
that's inconsequential and there's a time to get things resolved concerning broken laws that lead to torture and killings of hundreds of thousands of people.

Of course, the former admin who staged a coup to get into power would not want Americans to think of that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
28. therein lies the biggest debate - if gov't, whoever the gov't is at the time, cannot be held liable
for torturing people, because we need to "move on" - then just say it - we can torture whoever the hell we want to torture, wherever we want to torture them, and for whatever reason we want to torture them! There's no gray area here either, man, woman and child can all be tortured and we just need to 'move on'.


I will not forgive my country (people I forgive, but not my govt) if they fail to punish for, at its worst, killing people they tortured. The onus is on President Obama to seek justice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
29. So, since the Nazis had lost the war, we should not have prosecuted the criminals at
Nuremburg? What an idiot this guy is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
48. I can't argue with that. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
30. K/R. Looking forward to the interview.
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
31. K & R
Super article.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
33. No, "Move On" doesn't apply here.
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 07:33 PM by Kajsa
If anything , moving forward is cleaning up the garbage of the past,
i.e. bringing war criminals to justice.

If left undone, others will feel free to commit the same crimes,
" Hey- nothing happened to them! Why the hell not?"

If Nazi war criminals can be brought justice
within the past ten years, then we sure as hell can
go after the criminals in BushCo.

Btw,

Bob Fertig's question regarding appointing Patrick
Fitzgerald as the Special Prosecutor to try Bush,Cheney
and Rove made it to the the number one position
on Change.org.

KO mentioned Bob's question a few nights on 'Countdown'.

(Edit to add link)
( scroll down towards bottom of page)

http://change.gov/newsroom/entry/open_for_questions_round_2_response/

Thanks, IHNB.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NoQuarter Donating Member (532 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
34. That's part of the treason we passed laws against it.
Shouldn't that be "..reason we passed laws against it."?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. Freudian Slip?
;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
36. I read that piece in Newsweek.
What is his point? That we should only prosecute crime in the present? The future? Seems to me the entirety of law enforcement deals with the past! The author is a hack. His entire premise isn't even laughable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. Not only that, but he's an arrogant snob.
At least that's my take after actually hearing him call into the show.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
40. I like the way he thinks
K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Locrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
41. Barry needs a doctor to get his ball re-installed
WTF? I saw the interview with Barry and Cenk. WEAK SAUCE as Cenk would say. This guy works for Newsweak?

Seriously what was his main point? That we don't prosecute crime anymore if it after the fact? Should rape victims just "get over it"? Murder - oops sorry my bad. But like he's dead so who cares? WTF?

The ONLY point Barry had is that congress et all should have gotten off their asses and tried to prosecute while in office. But that would have been a suicide (maybe literally) with the spying, media, etc
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
42. I wonder who told FDR to 'look forward' in 1934
He did, and look where we are today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
47. Oh, yeah
we should just move-on like they moved on over that asinine 'white water' waste of time. The Republican operatives are a bunch of seditious prevaricators of the truth. They sit around in those dangerous think-tanks getting drunk and conceiving mayhem with no basis in reality. They think it up and hatch the plot. At least with the stuff we have on the past mis -administration it is real, tangible, criminal activity which needs to be addressed for the sake of justice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
50. You can't even claim this 'move on' defense if the crime continues - wiretapping.
There is nothing to move on away from if the crime itself is ongoing and continues until this very moment and on into the next.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC