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Flightful Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:50 PM
Original message
Even with no WMD, Iraq war had a point
Lotsa discussion fodder here- hoping for some thoughtful replies rather than a rehash of what Dubya did or didn't do.

In the midst of alleged lies, deliberate obfuscation and partisan braying, let's cut to one central truth: It's never wrong to rid the world of mass murderers.

I can't believe that even needs saying.

Whatever the impetus. Whatever the overt justification. Whatever might have finally scared the sluggish powers into action.

Not because of what might happen to us in the near future — the clear and present danger that now has been shown to not have been nearly so clear nor so present — but because of what had already been done to
them, the slaughtered victims and brutalized populace of a rogue regime.

<snip>

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1075417810326&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154
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lcordero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. It had a point alright
It proves a point that a President should be stripped of the power to deploy troops outside our borders.

It also proved the point that Congress should take the power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus and either take it as theirs or make it illegal.

That's just for starters.
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lastknowngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I assume he would support
the elimination of the shrub then.
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ogminlo Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. The ends do not justify the means.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. another lame justifcation for doing the wrong thing.
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 10:06 PM by KG
plus they still don't get it. WMDs were the stated reason for this illegal and immoral invasion and occupation, not some vague humanitarian mission.


where was this morons moral outrage when the US was actively supporting the mass murderer?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hmmm . . .

In the midst of alleged lies, deliberate obfuscation and partisan braying, let's cut to one central truth: It's never wrong to rid the world of mass murderers.

Okay, when do we send the mass murderer who is presently squatting in the White House to The Hague for trial?

He is now the enemy of the Iraqi people.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. "our mass murderer kicked your mass murderer's ASS"
So it's okay if a mass murder kills another mass murderer?

Hmmmmmmm .......

An eye for an eye, with mass murderers, leaves the world full of blind mass murderers.

I don't buy it.

The only good thing to come out of the invasion of Iraq is the restoration of the wetlands.

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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. True, it is right to remove mass murderers, but to wait around with
their thumbs up their asses when the actual mass murdering was going on in 1988-1989 was criminal.

And they looked the other way.

If it really were up to the Repubs in 1941 (without Pearl Harbor), Hitler would have finished the job. Just look at the types who are the rightist zealots. You don't see too many liberals waving flags with swastikas on them, do you?
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. no sh!t, zbdent, how many neo-nazis voted for Al Gore?
Not many, I'm sure...
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. well, I guess "shock and awe" was a humanitarian act?
:crazy:


remember, Saddam was propped, supported, funded, armed, trained, supplied w/WMD, by the same people who are in charge now

why on earth should we suddenly believe they care about the Iraqi people, now? Why on earth should we believe they won't replace Saddam with someone who is just as bad?

When Iraqis begin to protest their new American-installed tyrant, he will crack down on them just as bad as Saddam did. Maybe worse, since Bush will call them 'enemies of freedom' and use the US Army to crush them this time

Iraq is not free, it is not a democracy, it is an occupied country. It's a little early to declare the entire plan a success...
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. Denial denial denial.
We invaded a sovereign nation which had NOT attacked us and was not a threat even to its nearest neighbors.

It does, however, have a wealth of oil.

Many nations have monstrous dictators, many of whom we support and fund, if not now, then in the recent past. Our government bizarrely considers military dictatorships stable partners. Democracies are too unpredictable to tolerate. You never know who's going to win....unless you count the votes.

We committed a heinous act of aggression against an innocent people, and a harmless nation. Harmless to US. The blood is dripping off our hands, into our food, onto our newspapers, staining everything we do and say.

Will all the people murdered and tortured by Saddam equal the number who will have died because of this arrogant crime?
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. Humanitarian Intervention
Let me get this straight -- the Bushies and neocons sacrificed all this American blood and treasure (not their personal blood and treasure, of course); defied the laws and protests of the civilized world, and deeply divided our own nation -- for a humanitarian intervention? They had many motives -- oil, petro dollars, war profiteering, delusions of Pax Americana, and domestic politics, but doing all of this for the sake of the poor suffering Iraqi people -- the same ones they killed by the thousands in order to save?

I don't think so. They won't invest a fraction of that in the welfare of the American people, so the notion that this is one huge foreign aid program simply doesn't wash.

OK then, let's talk about it in terms of self-interest -- not the interests of the Bushies & neocons -- the true interests of the American people.

In terms of national security, this war is a fiasco. We diverted vital resources from the pursuit of al Qaeda in Afghanistan (remember 9/11?), and now they're resurgent along with the Taliban. We're mired in two very costly and bloody nation-building operations, with no guarantee that any government we install will long survive our departure (if we ever depart). Our treasury is being drained, our military is stretched precariously thin, our actions are recruiting more terrorists than we're killing, and most of the world now regards us as a rogue nation.

Will the Iraqi people be better off in the long run? That's hard to say (except for the thousands we killed so far in this war). Right now Iraqis are less safe than during Hussein's rule, with a higher unemployment rate and a devastated infrastructure. Civil war may be looming, and another tyrant could eventually emerge. It would be a mistake to put too much faith into the export of Bush democracy -- it's not a shining example here at home.

Who knows -- the Iraqis may have grown tired of sanctions and Saddam and deposed his atrocious regime. If David Kay is to be believed, Hussein was definitely losing his grip. The fact is we just don't know what the future would be in ten years if we hadn't invaded -- nor do we know what's going to happen now.

Call me selfish, but I just don't think the dubious results in Iraq are worth hundreds of $billions and the lives of 500+ young Americans. The Iraqis are so grateful, they're laying wreaths in the roads (or is that bombs?).

To be sure, something had to be done about Iraq. An estimated 500,000 Iraqi children have died as a result of the US/UN-imposed sanctions. But the only viable solution had to be one that was reached and approved by the world community. What the Bush administration did is not widely regarded as a humanitarian intervention, nor is it one.
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NJCher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. exactly
The bush administration has no history whatsoever of humanitarian intervention.


Cher
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's never wrong to rid the world of mass murderers,
no matter how many people you have to kill to do it.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. Rosie's counting chickens before they are hatched IMHO
It would have been nice if the 10,000+ dead Iraqis (enough to fill a few mass graves of their own, I'd assume) and their relatives had a vote on whether they wanted to be liberated by the US. Maybe the parents who had their kids maimed and killed when they played with cluster bombs might not be quite as eager about the whole exercise, or the families that lost kids when their cars were machined gunned at roadblocks might not see the liberation in quite the positive light that Ms. Dimano does.

The author is also assuming that because Iraq hasn't yet gone completely to hell in a hand basket everyone is better off than before. However the Shiites are getting increasingly restless and demanding direct elections in contravention of what the US wants. After the elections they want the US out. The US is planning on staying and building bases to maintain a presence in Iraq into the foreseeable future as per the PNAC plans to maintain bases in the Middle East in order to project US power in the region. This is not going to sit well with the Shiite majority, and is a recipe for future conflict and guerrilla war of the same type (or worse) that is currently occuring with the Sunnis.

The US is also now likely getting the Kurds hot under the collar by reassuring the Turkish government that the Kurds will not be allowed to have an autonomous form of government (which in effect is what they have now) and control of their own oil revenues. See www.turkishpress.com/turkishpress/news.asp?ID=17202

Powell stated that he also discussed the issue related to north of Iraq with Gul, adding that Iraq was a single country and one entity. The oil of this country was in the hand of the central government, Powell said adding that the U.S. supported the territorial integrity of Iraq.

Powell gave the message that the U.S. would take the necessary steps about the terrorist organization PKK.


The PKK is a Kurdish resistance group, and naturally enough would be defined as a terrorist group by Turkey. Of course one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and the Kurds themselves might have a different opinion as to whether they were terrorists or freedom fighters. Things are not looking good for US/Kurd relations over the long term. The Kurds, could quite easily turn against their "liberators" if they see that they are actually being required to give up autonomy and loose control of oil revenues under a new Iraqi government and the US is acting against Kurdish "freedom fighters."

I think it is a bit premature to celebrate at this point in time and assume that it is downhill from here on now that Saddam has gone. Iraq is still a powder keg and there is a real chance that things could turn much nastier than they are right now, and right now things are not all that shit hot anyway. At TomDispatch.com there is an account of a US doctor recently returned from Iraq after meetings with Iraqis and occupation forces. From his account, it certainly does not sound like all the Iraqis are as convinced as Dimanno that they are so much better off than they were under Saddam.

Col. Sassaman talked expansively to us about his work. His unit, he began, engages in military action when necessary, but he is primarily interested in dialogue with local people. He acknowledged that when he first came in April, he felt "incredible sadness and incredible rage" at the plight of the Iraqis, especially since his unit had not been trained in reconstruction and there was "no help from the State Department." I was struck by the phrasing, since I assumed he knew that the State Department had been largely locked out of Iraq by the Pentagon.

<snip>

Most of my empathy for Col. Sassaman dissolved the next day, however, when Sami and Mohaned's father paid us an unexpected visit. Since phones still don't work in Iraq, they had to drive the hour down to Baghdad themselves to contact us. At 4 AM that morning, they told us, Sassaman's men had staged a raid in Abu Hishma, a town over ten miles from the base, that Sassaman had previously ordered encircled with razor wire to pressure inhabitants to give information about insurgents. Perhaps a hundred soldiers in fifteen to twenty vehicles entered the town, surrounded Mohaned's father's house, broke down the door, and smashed up some of the family's belongings. They took Mohaned and his five brothers at gunpoint out to the yard, handcuffed them, put hoods on their heads, had them sit in the rain while the house was searched, and then carted them off to the base. Later in the morning, Sami and Mohaned's father went (courageously, I thought) out to the base to inquire. Sassaman, according to the two of them, was still in muddy boots and fatigues, apparently from participating himself in the raid. He told Sami that he wanted to meet with the HROI soon and that he trusted members of CPT to be present. Exactly what kind of trust did he now expect? Mohaned, like other detainees, is likely to disappear from his world for months.

(HROI = Human Rights Organization of Iraq, and CPT = Christian Peacemakers Team /jc)

<snip>

"Under Saddam," one of the lawyers had said, "there were certainly many human rights abuses. So, at the beginning, we were pleased to receive the Coalition Forces and even welcomed the use of force to remove Saddam. But now they treat us badly. Now, things are no different from under Saddam. The Coalition Forces have become the dictators."

<snip>

There is an absolute difference between military occupation and peacekeeping. There is simply too much violence in an occupation for genuine peacekeeping to occur. As long as the U.S. military occupies Iraq as the harsh representative of a foreign power, the resistance will increase.


www.nationinstitute.org/tomdispatch/index.mhtml?pid=1218

Jeez, too bad I can't forward these Iraqis Rosie Dimanno's column so they'll know Rosie is sure they're all better off without Saddam even if they might not think so themselves.

I could see the situation easily getting nasty enough over the next few years that a new strongman is needed to maintain control over the restless natives. After all, the US hasn't had much objections to evil dictators as long as they knew their place, carried out Uncle Sam's orders and made their countries safe for US based multinationals. Some of the current US allies in the war on terror are no slouches in the evil dictator racket themselves. It does not seem to be a pressing issue with Mr. Bush that anything be done about it. For example:

www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3943.htm

Our President's New Best Friend Boils People Alive

President Karimov government was awarded $500m in aid from the Bush administration in 2002. The SNB (Uzbekistan's security service) received $79m of this sum.

The U.S. State Department web site states "Uzbekistan is not a democracy and does not have a free press. Many opponents of the government have fled, and others have been arrested." and "The police force and the intelligence service use torture as a routine investigation technique."

Now I would like to introduce you to Muzafar Avazov, a 35-year old father of four. Mr Avazov had a visit from our presidents friends security force (SNB), the photographs below detail the brutality and inhuman treatment our tax dollars subsidize, with the full knowledge of our president and his administration.

Muzafar Avazov, body showed signs of burns on the legs, buttocks, lower back and arms. Sixty to seventy percent of the body was burnt, according to official sources. Doctors who saw the body reported that such burns could only have been caused by immersing Avazov in boiling water. Those who saw the body also reported that there was a large, bloody wound on the back of the head, heavy bruising on the forehead and side of the neck, and that his hands had no fingernails.



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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. So Clinton was right about removing Milosovic?
Hmmm?

Make sure they agree that Clinton handled that without the death of one US military person.
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skullsplitter Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
16. Is war justified by happy consequences?
The point of the original post seems to be that war is justified if it has "happy" consequences, intended or not. Extending that "logic", we would be able to justify a war if, for example, it led to a creation of jobs at home, increased corporate profits for defense contractors, led to the capture of an international ring of jewel thieves, or resulted in the shutting down of a poorly run nursing home. Wouldn't we all sleep better at night if an invasion of the Netherlands solved the prostitution and drug "problems" there? Wouldn't the world be a better place if we invaded Scotland and banned haggis forever?

Come to think of it, there are many countries in which people die daily from the consequences of severe poverty. With a properly executed invasion by the United States military and a post-conflict plan with contracts for Halliburton and other corportations dedicated to unselfish action for the greater good, we can create a wonderful world and be loved by all. Leave it to a compassionate conservative to find the full potential for good in war.

By the way, apparently lies are good too as long as they have "happy" consequences. And what "happier" consequence is there than the re-election of Bush/Cheney?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
17. war never has a point
that's rule number one. The winners are never really winners in the long run. There have been what might by called 'just' wars, but they are the exception to the rule.

The abstracting war to purely political motivations, like taking out a 'rogue regime' is total BS.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
18. Snotty elitism
Assuming that people are incapable of ridding themselves of their own dictators. Ask Marcos, Ceausescu and Reza Pahlavi about that.

Attacking another country which is not threatening you is evil, period. You may as well say armed robbery is OK if someone like Ted Bundy gets caught in the crossfire.
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
19.  It's never wrong to rid the world of mass murderers?
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 03:41 AM by realpolitik
Will we feel the same way when an Iraqi national, A Saudi Wahabbist, A member of al-Qaeda or the Taliban stands up in the middle of a Bush media event wearing an explosive vest and holding a flask of Vx -- screaming that at us? One man's freedom fighter is another man's contra-murder squad leader. One man's terrorist is another's avenging angel. I just call it the way I see it.

I am in deep dread of not just the scale, but the rapidity of the blowback that our last year's hideously insane policy on terrorism in general, and Iraq in specific will generate. I think that the real danger may not come from the traditional terrorist attack, but from a decapitating strike. This is an election year, after all. Bush cannot join Cheney in his undisclosed Grand Jury location.

In the quest to rebuild the middle east into an American client state, the arrogance, not verging on, but rolling like a spaniel in sheer hubris. Really, just like the stuff that gets you hit by lightning, if you get my drift. And the amazingly irresponsible language continues to flow out of the NeoCon think tanks and quasi governmental authorities. And no one does a damn thing to stop it.

Our policy, viewed from outside the lens/mirror of soi-disant American Media, is remarkably transparent. Before the trifecta, it was not yet thinkable to violate the Powell doctrine of coalition warfare. In fact, in a nod to the homily about keeping your enemies closer than your friends, there was no better place for them to have Powell than as State. It was a place where he could be manipulated through loyalty to disown his own doctrine and do it a fatal disservice when he made preposterous statements at the U.N.

When you listen to Perle, Powell, and Condi Rice on the same subjects though, you get a real feel for the disdain they have for the Senior Bush's strategic representative in the cabinet. But to get back to the question about doubting the wisdom of taking out Saddam, I do not think that we have done a humanitarian service in Iraq, and here I can say without fear of contradiction, that much of the world that we like to think of as civilized is recoiling in horror from our behavior. And they are whispering among themselves at what outcomes our current leadership is actually promoting.

It was wrong to do what we did to Iraq in order to pry Saddam out of a hole. The Iraqis will not soon let us forget what we did to them to get him. And they are not alone.







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DrBB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
20. Okay, so why wasn't that their argument, then?
Simple question. Why didn't they MAKE this argument if it's so all-fired convincing and self-evident? Why was it necessary to LIE to the American people? If this justification is valid, why do we assume the case couldn't have been made on that basis to our allies? We did, at one point, have their overwhelming support you know. None of them objected to our going into Afghanistan. Was it necessarily the case that we couldn't have rallied them to this mission on an honest basis? And if we had doubts about them following our lead on this, when they were so willing to agree and assist on Afghanistan, doesn't that mean there was something wrong with this case?

And further, all those "whatevers"--Whatever the impetus. Whatever the overt justification. Whatever might have finally scared the sluggish powers into action—kinda leave one glaring omission, don't they? Namely, whatever the cost. Because the cost here has not just been money and lives. It has been America's legitimacy, the good will of nations (traditional allies and otherwise) whose help we desperately need to counter stateless terrorism, the trust of the country in its leadership, the resources pulled away from the ACTUAL fight against terrorism, the list goes on and on.

I mean, in a way I agree with the point. I'm among those who consider this a "wrong time, wrong priority, wrongly done" war, not anti-Iraq-liberation per se. But they've fucked it up, they shouldn't have done it with Afghanistan collapsing back into chaos, and al Qaeda still at large. They shouldn't have done it without marshalling maximum international legitimacy first. It should have been done AS a humanitarian effort, if it had to be done, with sufficient force and a plan in place to secure the country afterward. Was it really impossible to do those things? Or was it only the incompetence and arrogance of the Bush adminstration that are to blame?
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Snappy Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
21. Wolf twit
Wolfowitz stated in an article that the WMDs and nexus to Al Q. was the strongest case. Sorry don't have a direct link. The case about horrible dictator, humanitarian mission was considered weak, so they went with lies.
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
22. the only point was oil..
and control of it...it tickles my fancy to think that any of these imperialists give a flying fuck about ordinary Iraqis..enough said...next excuse..
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
23. WMD was never the point. It was the talking point
they settled upon, as Wolfowitz admitted, to sell the case for war to Congress, the public and the world.

The point can be found in the documents of the Project for the New American Century and Cheney's energy task force.
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