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"Who Forged the Niger Documents?" (According to this source, US Did)

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 12:40 PM
Original message
"Who Forged the Niger Documents?" (According to this source, US Did)
Who Forged the Niger Documents?
By Ian Masters, AlterNet
Posted on April 7, 2005, Printed on April 8, 2005
http://www.alternet.org/story/21704/

Editor’s Note: This is an edited transcript of an interview conducted by Ian Masters with Vincent Cannistaro, the former CIA head of counterterrorism operations and intelligence director at the National Security Council under Ronald Reagan, which aired on the Los Angeles public radio KPFK on April 3, 2005.

Ian Masters: You’ve been following President Bush’s commission’s report that came out this week, featuring fairly much, in terms of the press coverage, questions about “Curveball,” apparently a very appropriately named agent that the German intelligence was working. And, apparently his intelligence was heavily relied upon as a justification for going into war, particularly a lot of his claims ending up in the speech that Colin Powell made before the U.N.. And apparently, though, from the very beginning, the Germans were letting our side know that the guy was a fabricator and was, in fact, crazy. First of all, I didn’t think the CIA relied that heavily upon foreign intelligence. I thought there was a kind of professional sense that our taxpayers give us $30 billion dollars a year, we should be able to do this on our own and not rely on others. First of all, address that, sort of, cultural question if you will.

Well, I think in the case of Iraq, there were special circumstances, because the CIA does not have a good network of Iraqi sources in place, even though Iraq had become the forefront of U.S. policy all the way back to the Gulf War in 1991. So there was a dearth of information coming from CIA’s own sources. Secondly, there was an awful lot of so-called information coming from Iraqi exiles, primarily Ahmed Chalabi’s INC—the Iraqi National Congress. And that seemed to have a very receptive audience in some areas of the government, particularly at the Defense Department and at the vice president’s office. These were reports that tended to support the preconception of the administration that Saddam Hussein needed to be gotten rid of, and the primary reason for doing that was that he was in imminent possession of weapons of mass destruction, which could be turned against the United States of America or its allies.

So in that kind of environment — where there’s a tremendous policy need for information and you don’t have a great deal of source information that’s proprietary — then that’s how information that seems to be comprehensive, coming in from a foreign source, is overemphasized.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/21704/
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Whoa.
Very interesting. I'm gonna go read this now.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Really interesting piece-- check this part out:
"Do we know who produced those documents? Because there’s some suspicion ...

I think I do, but I’d rather not speak about it right now, because I don’t think it’s a proven case ...

If I said “Michael Ledeen” ?

You’d be very close . . ."

So who would be "close" to Ledeen??????
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Michael Ledeen....hmmm...a couple of items for context:

Michael Ledeen: Investigated by the FBI for leaking secrets to Israel while consultant on terrorism to the National Security Council in the Reagan administration, Ledeen resigned under pressure. Michael was appointed by Feith in Bush II as a consultant to Feith's Office of Special Plans which fabricated the intelligence for the Iraq War.

Link: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/4/55743/43830






Sid Vicious
By David Horowitz for GOPUSA
June 2, 2003

<snip>

"Two related players are Barbara and Michael Ledeen. I willingly stipulate that I am fond of Dick Scaife, an eminently decent American, and that Barbara and Michael Ledeen are old friends. Here is the entire Blumenthal account of our conspiracy, along with my inter-linear comments:

In July, the Ledeens' testimony yielded the information that they had arranged through a friend, David Horowitz, for Drudge's defense to be paid for and handled.

It is true that Barbara Ledeen called me and said, "You have to help Matt Drudge," whom I had never met. As Barbara and many other people knew, I had created an "Individual Rights Foundation" which mainly fought speech codes on college campuses, but also defended a liberal feminist under attack from the politically correct left and filed an amicus brief for a leftwing racist, Leonard Jeffries, because he was fired for making a public speech (a violation of his First Amendment rights).

I had no other conversations with Barbara or any other member of Sidney's conspiracies about the legal defense of Matt Drudge. Following Barbara's phone call, I had a lunch with Matt Drudge and persuaded him he needed a lawyer. I then set up a meeting with Drudge and my lawyer for the IRF, whom he took on as his counsel."

Link: http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/dhorowitz/2003/dh_0602.shtml



www.missionnotaccomplished.us
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Discussion of Ledeen and related matters from last summer
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. (same GOPUSA as Talon?......woooo)
tight little circles aren't they.......
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kliljedahl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. This is interesting too
You're probably familiar with it, but even the conservatives don't think too highly of him.


Flirting with Fascism
Neocon theorist Michael Ledeen draws more from Italian fascism than from the American Right.
On the antiwar Right, it has been customary to attack the warmongering neoconservative clique for its Trotskyite origins. Certainly, the founding father of neoconservatism, Irving Kristol, wrote in 1983 that he was “proud” to have been a member of the Fourth International in 1940. Other future leading lights of the neocon movement were also initially Trotskyites, like James Burnham and Max Kampelman—the latter a conscientious objector during the war against Hitler, a status that Evron Kirkpatrick, husband of Jeane, used his influence to obtain for him. But there is at least one neoconservative commentator whose personal political odyssey began with a fascination not with Trotskyism, but instead with another famous political movement that grew up in the early decades of the 20th century: fascism. I refer to Michael Ledeen, leading neocon theoretician, expert on Machiavelli, holder of the Freedom Chair at the American Enterprise Institute, regular columnist for National Review—and the principal cheerleader today for an extension of the war on terror to include regime change in Iran.

link: http://www.amconmag.com/06_30_03/feature.html


http://www.kliljedahl.net


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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sy Hersh: strong rumor that PO'd retired CIA officers did it as a STING.
Edited on Fri Apr-08-05 03:11 PM by Nothing Without Hope
In late 2003 there were several different rumors about the origin of the forged Niger documents, and one of the persistent ones was that they were put together by disgruntled CIA agents who expected their obvious fakeness to be uncovered at a time and place that discredited the admnistration toadies to whom spy information from unreliable sources (like Chalabi) was stovepiped. Here is Seymour Hersh describing this in a 10/21/03 New Yorker interview (he also mentioned it in his full "stovepiping" article, which I believe was in the same issue):

http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/?031027on_onlineonly01
(snip)

Q: You looked into the question of who actually fabricated the papers. What did you find out?

SH: Different people have different theories. When I was in Italy, there were people who thought that the documents might have been written by the Italian military intelligence service, whose acronym is sismi. There have been other suspects, too. But one of the most compelling theories was relayed to me by a former senior C.I.A. official, a very high-level guy. And it goes back to the issue of how broken the intelligence system was, so much so that you couldn’t get at the truth. What he said represented the frustration and rage felt by many in the intelligence community, the notion that a group of retired officers actually got together and drafted the Niger papers.

Q: Why would anybody who had worked for the C.I.A., no matter how disgruntled, forge documents?

SH: First, you have to understand that C.I.A. stations around the world, not so much now but during the Cold War, falsified documents all the time. That’s what they did for a living. That’s part of the tradecraft. Second, if you’re in the C.I.A. and it’s last fall, you’re almost frozen, you’re powerless. By March, 2002, the people on the inside knew that the President had decided to go to war in Iraq, and by the summer C.I.A. operations against terrorism around the world—in Central Asia particularly—were shut off because of lack of funds and because any personnel who had good language skills were shoved into the Gulf to get ready for the war. So there was a tremendous sense of frustration.

Q: But wouldn’t these documents have helped the Administration?

SH: No, the documents were written to be exposed. The papers are hopeless, and even the Italian reporter who looked at them, Elisabetta Burba, was able very quickly to determine that they were false. They’re bad forgeries. And I think the idea was simply to embarrass the government internally. Don’t forget, Niger had already been a source of great dispute between the C.I.A. and the Pentagon and the Vice-President’s office. There was this tension. And so the thought was that somebody like Cheney or Rumsfeld and their aides would flash them at a meeting, and then the other side could counterattack. It would be an embarrassment, because the papers were such obvious fakes. Or Rumsfeld or somebody would go public with the papers, not vet them, not analyze them, and the press would go after them. But that didn’t happen. Instead, lo and behold, the President used the Niger story to make the case against Iraq in his State of the Union speech in January.

(snip)


Now in the interview in the current article, the story is that forging was said to be done by the administration itself with the intention of it justifying policy decisions. Quite a different take.

What I think is this: if a group of angry retired CIA officers DID fabricate the poorly forged Niger documents as an intended sting of the administration's pet intelligence toadies, the agency is NOT going to want that to come out. They hate what the administration has done to the agency and to the professional gathering of accurate information, and this would feed the flames of total destruction. For them, as for us, it's vastly preferable to believe that someone within the administration did it. I hope that's true but I wonder if we will ever know.


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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. bush's reason for gutting the CIA...
and transferring intelligence duties to the OSP. That way they get the intelligence they want and they KNOW if it's forged or not, because they're doing it. The CIA gets hung out to dry and is further marginalized. This IS NOT 41's CIA anymore, that's for sure. :popcorn: This could get VERY interesting down the road.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. HOLY CRAP!! So, what happens now? Nothing? This is certainly
more damning then a blow job in the White House. People are still dying over the lies this adminstration has told. I am outraged.
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skip fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wow. I hope the investigator on the Plame case gets this!
Then we'll see some real results!!!


(What a way to end a week.)

:toast:
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. You're being sarcastic, right?
The Plame investigation is going nowhere. It's done, like dinner.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kick
:kick: For others to read.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. Must be time to hand out more Presidential medals. eom
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. More info here.
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sharman Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. Dan Rather's report
Whatever happened to that? He was working on a special about the Niger forgeries, which got shelved at the last minute for the TANG story.

IIRC, CBS then said they would hold off on the Niger story because of the upcoming presidential election (yeah, god forbid a news organization shares valuable information with the public in time for us to make an informed decision at the polls). Now it seems to have disappeared into the rabbit hole. Wonder what they found.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-05 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. Topic also here:
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-05 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. Great - Heads will roll now!
Sorry, that was my last glimmer of hope. Now it's gone.

Truth is, we'll be lucky if Bush doesn't give a medal of freedom to the guilty party(s).

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